Why I Hate KotOR and TOR

[Alexrd]

You mean, Lucasfilm?

[JediAthos]

Lucasarts...Lucasfilm Ltd. part of the same company....at any rate my point was that somebody signed off on this stuff...

[Xavier2]

The thread is called: "Why I Hate KotOR and TOR". KOTOR being one of the most beloved sources of Star Wars content ever it (the thread) is expected to flame a few of the fans.

 

I can't argue with the OP about the lore in TOTJ versus KOTOR. At least not to the extent some of the posts here. I can argue about my opinion on it though and i think the cannon has been stablished towards KOTOR story arc because it has a superior value both artistic and comercial.

 

Everyone involved in the production of Star Wars content simply recognized KOTOR lore had a bigger impact in SW audience than TOTJ. This forum very existence almost a decade after the release of KOTOR is proof enough.

 

I believe it is so because SW is made for a kind of media that games do a good job adapting but comics often fails to emulate. TOTJ made an effort to create something new but the audience pointed the otherside.

 

Perhaps someone should create a thread called "Why I Love KotOR and TOR" to counterargument the OP...

[adamqd]

 

Everyone involved in the production of Star Wars content simply recognized KOTOR lore had a bigger impact in SW audience than TOTJ. This forum very existence almost a decade after the release of KOTOR is proof enough.

 

I believe it is so because SW is made for a kind of media that games do a good job adapting but comics often fails to emulate. TOTJ made an effort to create something new but the audience pointed the otherside.

 

 

Not really, there wasn't a poll asking what we wanted more, KotOR was simply a newer project, and it was given the go ahead by Lucasarts.. the finished project an evolution of the story told in TOTJ.

 

Its a completely different platform, there are more gamers than comic readers, theres nothing to say that had TOTJ been more Prequel style, and the later KotOR been Ancient looking that they're roles in Canon or fandom would be reversed.

 

I Love TOTJ and KotOR, but I dont feel a jarring when switching between the two, I accept Retcon and changes in style... you kind of have to if you wanna be a SW fan nowadays.

[Xavier2]

There wasn't a poll but cannon was changed after KOTOR succeded. I think KOTOR developers followed the movies tone closer, likely aiming that wider audience from the get go.

 

Also, i do believe some elements of Star Wars can't be translated properly to comics. Star Wars is a very cinetic type of story and quite a few SW comics fail to emulate that apeal (although just like every other comic around, some have very good artists behind them that accomplish that). Games on the other hand can do it easily.

[deathdisco]

Xavier, have you been thanked enough for real Jedi robes in K1? Thanks again! Nice to see you around.

 

If it weren't for KOTOR I would have never been introduce to all the old EU stuff from that era. Continuity inconsistency is just a fact of life with Lucas Licensing. Across all eras.

As Redhawke once said:

{snip}..Remember the SW:EU is a take what you want and leave what you don't situation... just like a salad bar in a resturant.

Not sure what you were expecting posting this in the KOTOR section. We're here because we love KOTOR.

[Darth Primus]

I would like to take just a second and point out that whatever retcons, changes, rewrites, etc...that KOTOR, TOR, SWG, or any other game, book, movie, etc...etc...etc... make to any "established" information are APPROVED BY LUCASARTS. Nothing official happens in Star Wars "canon" without someone from Lucasarts signing off on it.

 

Really...aren't we all used to it by now???

 

I'm not here debating LucasArts and its approval or not of the diverse storylines. They are known to canonize crap such as Legacy Era and the Yuuzhan Vong, so...

 

The thread is called: "Why I Hate KotOR and TOR". KOTOR being one of the most beloved sources of Star Wars content ever it (the thread) is expected to flame a few of the fans.

 

I can't argue with the OP about the lore in TOTJ versus KOTOR. At least not to the extent some of the posts here. I can argue about my opinion on it though and i think the cannon has been stablished towards KOTOR story arc because it has a superior value both artistic and comercial.

 

I don't think its artistically superior, but it is certainly so comercially, and that's a trademark trait of LucasArts: to recycle the older, more unique work into a comercial one, which is almost the specular image of the films.

 

Everyone involved in the production of Star Wars content simply recognized KOTOR lore had a bigger impact in SW audience than TOTJ. This forum very existence almost a decade after the release of KOTOR is proof enough.

 

I believe it is so because SW is made for a kind of media that games do a good job adapting but comics often fails to emulate. TOTJ made an effort to create something new but the audience pointed the otherside.

 

Perhaps someone should create a thread called "Why I Love KotOR and TOR" to counterargument the OP...

 

It didn't only have a bigger impact because of the media. It engulfed the same fans that worshipped the PT just because of the similarities. If we'd have, instead of KotOR, a TotJ-based game, I am certain the impact would've been smaller, simply because it is only recognized as truly Star Wars by somewhat "truer" fans, in a sense. And because, when you speak of events that occurred 4000 years before the PT, it is SUPPOSED TO BE DIFFERENT, not reminiscent.

 

And we all know the kind of "impact" our dear friends of LA were pretty much interested in, when they established KotOR as higher canon...

 

Xavier, have you been thanked enough for real Jedi robes in K1? Thanks again! Nice to see you around.

 

If it weren't for KOTOR I would have never been introduce to all the old EU stuff from that era. Continuity inconsistency is just a fact of life with Lucas Licensing. Across all eras.

As Redhawke once said:

 

Not sure what you were expecting posting this in the KOTOR section. We're here because we love KOTOR.

 

I posted it in the most obvious place for a KotOR discussion. I do agree with what Redhawke said, though its certainly depressing, to see the works on Star Wars you grew up on be discarded because they were not "the appropriate media".

[Xavier2]

Well in any case, i ordered TOTJ v1 and v2. I don't remember that comics having such an impact on me as it obviously did on you, but if it was so relevant that you can quote it's lore to the extent of your posts here then i say it is worth a second look.

 

Regarding the fact that Lucasarts emulates the movies, i think that is preciselly the point both comercial and artistic. Doing something diferent with previous stablished material and lore is not a task for simple mortals...Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

 

The darker tone in Frank Miller Daredevil worked for Marvel Comics, but let's face it the character wasn't all that stablished previously.

 

The marriage of Spiderman always had mixed feelings among fans of Marvel Comics to the point they erased it entirelly making a big mess out of the continuity.

 

Star Wars for that matter, has some core elements depicted in the movies. Take that out and it may as well be something else entirelly. Than why bother calling it Star Wars?

 

Don't take me wrong. Sometimes George Lucas does crap (midiclhoreans anyone?) but what i like in Star Wars is in the movies and tbh that IS what i expect to see in other medias. But that's me. I am known to make mods that emulate the movies in KOTOR...

[Darth Primus]

Heh. I simply adore the feel of TotJ, and I do recognize its very different, almost not Star Wars-like. But some things do not change: the Jedi, and for that matter the Sith as well, are at their cores the same. The same goes to the goals and purposes of the Galactic Republic. These fundamental truths are, uhm, true, despite the timeline. The very concept of a Jedi Order and the Sith opposing them is Star Wars.

 

But diversity and change is important, too. A galaxy that resembles what it was 4000 years before is certainly a dead one, and in my opinion KotOR harms the films themselves, in a sense, just because of that.

[Xavier2]

I get the technology argument, but in other science fictions technology always get to a point where it can't move further until every few million years evolution leaps fall. It is conceivable that once you gain the ability to hyperdrive, Shape a beam of light into a swordblade and fire laser shots, it probably wouldn't change that much in 4.000 years.

 

The design though is expected to change. That part i have to recognize regarding the ships, vehicles and city landscape. Taris is pretty much Coruscant in the Attack of the Clones. Ebon Hawk is a rip off from the Millenium Falcon. Swoops and speeders are pretty much the same.

 

The clothes and uniforms though have diferent inspirations. Czerka uniforms look Star Trek. Sith armor don't recolect me of anything too much Star Wars. They don't look like Stormtroopers at all. The Dark Jedi wear a grey/black uniform with hood and mask that doesnt relate directly to anything from the movies. Jedi Robes also look nothing like the movies, except they are made of cloth, which is expected from any nimble melee fighter. Even the Mandalorian armor doesnt look that much like Boba or Jango Fett, except for the thick visor in their helmets and that is a trademark that could very well persisted for 4.000 years.

[Darth Primus]

I get the technology argument, but in other science fictions technology always get to a point where it can't move further until every few million years evolution leaps fall. It is conceivable that once you gain the ability to hyperdrive, Shape a beam of light into a swordblade and fire laser shots, it probably wouldn't change that much in 4.000 years.

 

The design though is expected to change. That part i have to recognize regarding the ships, vehicles and city landscape. Taris is pretty much Coruscant in the Attack of the Clones. Ebon Hawk is a rip off from the Millenium Falcon. Swoops and speeders are pretty much the same.

 

Exactly the things that attract the most attention: landscape and vehicles.

 

The clothes and uniforms though have diferent inspirations. Czerka uniforms look Star Trek. Sith armor don't recolect me of anything too much Star Wars. They don't look like Stormtroopers at all. The Dark Jedi wear a grey/black uniform with hood and mask that doesnt relate directly to anything from the movies.

 

True, though only for K1, not K2. What they didn't rip off from K1, they made even closer in look to the Prequel Trilogy (while they are not the same, the robes that the Sith NPCs wear remind me of both Dooku's and Maul's clothes).

 

Jedi Robes also look nothing like the movies, except they are made of cloth, which is expected from any nimble melee fighter.

 

Again, only in K1. In K2, it all reeks of rilogy Jedi robes. And the player's Sith robes are simply black Jedi robes. As to the strict wearing of robes, I do have my doubts. Andur Sunrider wouldn't look a lot like a Jedi, for instance, if not for his lightsaber. There didn't seem to be much problem with the way a Jedi dressed himself, at least in TotJ. Ulic and Cay had pretty plain robes, and they wore armor in times of war too. But that Jedi Belaya in K1 diminishes Revan 'cause he wasn't wearing the "customary Jedi Robes". If it so "traditional" and "customary", it is only a 40-year old "tradition", which doesn't strike me as too traditional...

 

Even the Mandalorian armor doesnt look that much like Boba or Jango Fett, except for the thick visor in their helmets and that is a trademark that could very well persisted for 4.000 years.

 

Mandalore's armor in K2 certainly reeks of Jango and Boba, only it is grey. But the Neo-Crusader armor is certainly unexpected, and its design is actually interesting (but you didn't hear that from me XD).

 

Anyhow, the legitimate son of KotOR, The Old Republic, threw off all "morality" barriers that prevented the creators from completely ripping off absolutely everything from the PT. The acclamated "Hope" and "Decieved" cinematics show clone troopers, Jango Fett and Boba Fett, a Sith Lord that dresses up just like Darth Sidious (that "bad ass" Sith from both trailers), Imperial Star Destroyers and other blatant copies that are too depressing for me to list here.

[Q]

LOL, this reminds of those World of Darkness gamers who hate Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines because it disregards established WoD canon or somesuch. My advice:

 

1) Remove corncob.

2) Enjoy the game for what it is.

3) Have fun.

[adamqd]

LOL, this reminds of those World of Darkness gamers who hate Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines because it disregards established WoD canon or somesuch. My advice:

 

1) Remove corncob.

2) Enjoy the game for what it is.

3) Have fun.

 

LOL, This reminds me of those other fans who somehow manage to combine several thousand forum hours with a lack of investment in something they apparently enjoy enough to write about for said time periods. my advice:

 

1) Dismount the tall equine

2) Insert Corncob

3) Have Fun.

[Darth Primus]

LOL, this reminds of those World of Darkness gamers who hate Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines because it disregards established WoD canon or somesuch. My advice:

 

1) Remove corncob.

2) Enjoy the game for what it is.

3) Have fun.

 

I happen to like Star Wars for what it is. And KotOR does not contribute constructively at all to what Star Wars truly is, because it is simply sucked off the Prequel Trilogy. If I want to experience anything at all like the Prequel Trilogies, I go to my TV and watch it. What I expect from any Star Wars-based game is for it to transcend the feel of the two Trilogies. Tales of the Jedi does just that (although it is not a video game), but KotOR and TOR do not.

 

So I stick to my opinion: BioWare and Obsidian did have the capacity of making ass-busting games. But they chose to make the mirror image of the Prequel Trilogy. I am not trying to convince you of anything, I am merely sharing my opinion in a Star Wars discussion forum.

[deathdisco]

I happen to like Star Wars for what it is. And KotOR does not contribute constructively at all to what Star Wars truly is, because it is simply sucked off the Prequel Trilogy. If I want to experience anything at all like the Prequel Trilogies, I go to my TV and watch it. What I expect from any Star Wars-based game is for it to transcend the feel of the two Trilogies. Tales of the Jedi does just that (although it is not a video game), but KotOR and TOR do not.

 

So I stick to my opinion: BioWare and Obsidian did have the capacity of making ass-busting games. But they chose to make the mirror image of the Prequel Trilogy. I am not trying to convince you of anything, I am merely sharing my opinion in a Star Wars discussion forum.

 

Eh? KOTOR's story borrowed heavily from the OT. It's the main reason I love the game. It just feels like Star Wars. IMO

[christos200]

Both TOTJ and KOTOR have great story ,characters. in my opinion KOTOR is best than TOTJ because it gives you a classic star wars feel and not an ancient universe that if you dont look at the title you dont know if it is star wars (for TOTJ i talk).

[Darth Primus]

Eh? KOTOR's story borrowed heavily from the OT. It's the main reason I love the game. It just feels like Star Wars. IMO

 

Of course not. The Sith are still on the way to get on top, as they were during the Rise of the Empire era. In the OT, the Sith are already on top, and the Jedi lost their war. But two of the principal features of both games (the attack on Dantooine in K1 and the overall Jedi purge during K2) are reminiscent of Palpatine's Order 66. Nonetheless, even if the game creators took "inspiration" from either trilogy, the fact remains: they did not strive to create something at all new. And if you ask me, what they introduced of original is pure crap, as far as plotlines are concerned. Namely, the Star Forge, the Exile's and Nihilus' powers, and Kreia's evil plan to "destroy the Force".

 

Both TOTJ and KOTOR have great story ,characters. in my opinion KOTOR is best than TOTJ because it gives you a classic star wars feel and not an ancient universe that if you dont look at the title you dont know if it is star wars (for TOTJ i talk).

 

That's exactly my point. What attracts people most to KotOR is the fact it resembles the Prequels. But its supposed to look ancient, as TotJ does, because the timeline is ancient: 4000 years before the Battle of Yavin! And how is it TotJ doesn't remind you of Star Wars? Don't you have plenty of Jedi with lightsabers, a Republic, Sith, hutts and the Force?!

 

Just because its appearance is original does not mean its not SW. In fact, it feels to me more like Star Wars than KotOR and TOR ever will, because the design of everything being so different implies automatically an ever-changing Galaxy, while KotOR and TOR invoke immediately the feel of a static one, which it is not supposed to be.

[TKA-001]

invoke immediately the feel of a static one, which it is not supposed to be.

Er, since when?

[Q]

I happen to like Star Wars for what it is.

That explains a lot. You must like poor storytelling that gets retconned every time some talentless hack of an "author" (GL included) gets a stupid idea.

And KotOR does not contribute constructively at all to what Star Wars truly is,

Which is precisely why I like it. I case you haven't noticed, Star Wars has degenerated into a crapfest since 1999.

it is simply sucked off the Prequel Trilogy.

If this were even remotely true, both KotOR games would suck as bad as the Prequel Trilogy.

 

Have you even played these games?

[zemegauser]

All I'm pissed about is that cannon does not match up with my own characters!

[Darth Primus]

That explains a lot. You must like poor storytelling that gets retconned every time some talentless hack of an "author" (GL included) gets a stupid idea.

 

Yeah. It wasn't George Lucas who wrote the Original Trilogy. Just because he created a few stupid features such as Midi-chlorians doesn't mean the story is crap (which it is not, in many ways the storyline of the prequels is much deeper than the PT).

 

Which is precisely why I like it. I case you haven't noticed, Star Wars has degenerated into a crapfest since 1999.

 

In case you hadn't noticed, KotOR is part of this crapfest since 1999, and doesn't stand out particularly, both in content, design and plotline.

 

If this were even remotely true, both KotOR games would suck as bad as the Prequel Trilogy.

 

The KotOR games do suck. The PT does not. Most concepts KotOR explores to exhaustion come originally from the Prequels. Such as the Jedi Council, for instance.

 

Have you even played these games?

 

Yes, both games all the way through. If I had not, I wouldn't know crap of it. Or are you simply assuming anyone who plays it instantly falls in love with it? I do not.

[christos200]

if kotor is a crap then why every review says that is a very good game and the fans still love it after so many years?

 

in all of your posts the only thing you tell is tha the game sucks because of its tecnology and of its seting.

 

you say nothing about the storyline expect dart nihilous, darth sion and how malak betray revan. where is all the other storyline?

[Xavier2]

And how is it TotJ doesn't remind you of Star Wars? Don't you have plenty of Jedi with lightsabers, a Republic, Sith, hutts and the Force?!

 

Just because its appearance is original does not mean its not SW.

TOTJ is not SW it is StarGate: Atlantis with all those egiptian like props.

[Darth Primus]

if kotor is a crap then why every review says that is a very good game and the fans still love it after so many years?

 

in all of your posts the only thing you tell is tha the game sucks because of its tecnology and of its seting.

 

you say nothing about the storyline expect dart nihilous, darth sion and how malak betray revan. where is all the other storyline?

 

I don't listen to reviews, I make my own opinions. Like I said a couple posts back, I was merely disclosing my opinion on KotOR and KotOR II, I wasn't making a review or a revolution. Go on liking KotOR, you can do whatever you want, I am merely disclosing my views, so you get to know not everyone is a KotOR fan.

 

I say the game sucks because it has been leeched off the Prequels, and I don't really see anything of pretty much interesting in how the game is set, how its plot develops and how it ends.

 

TOTJ is not SW it is StarGate: Atlantis with all those egiptian like props.

 

This is so much so that TotJ came about in 1996, while SG: Atlantis came about in 2004. Pretty interesting, no? I'd say Stargate is TotJ.

[christos200]

TOTJ should have been TOEJ tales of egiptian jedi.

 

okey about the reviews but say, kotor is still a very popular game with a lots of fans, if it was a bad copy of prequel trilogy then why the fans still love it?