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Why I Hate KotOR and TOR


Darth Primus
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You're wrong. You clearly haven't played K1 and 2 and/or actually read Tales of the Jedi, or you just like to complain. Characters, organizations, planets, and so on from TOTJ do show up in KOTOR, and both BioWare and Obsidian loved to delve in the background of the era. In fact, one of the first things Obsidian did on the job was to read the Tales of the Jedi comics.

 

Oh, I assure you. I've read the comics. I've played both games. More than once. It is you who hasn't been paying attention to either the game or the comics. They just cite (many times erroneously) the events that took place during the Tales of the Jedi. For example, every single one of Jolee's tales assumes that the Jedi Council and the accepted Jedi behavior of the time of Exar Kun was the same as it was on KotOR, and, for that matter, the same as it is in the Prequel Trilogy. One more thing: where in blazes are the real Jedi from that time? I mean, the Jedi that fought and outlived the Sith War, Jedi such as Nomi Sunrider, Vima Sunrider, Tott Doneeta, Sylvar... They'd have grown into great Jedi Masters, to be the leaders of these Jedi from KotOR. There isn't even mention to those names. Instead, we see a poor collection of newly-created, never-heard-from Jedi Masters that are the greatest of their time: Kreia, Kavar, Vrook, Vandar and Zhar. I mean... did all the bunch from TotJ die from some shameful infection? Or perhaps they all went crazy. To not even mention those names, and the names of Arca Jeth, Thon, Vodo Siosk-Baas is plenty of evidence that KotOR creators didn't really give a damn about TotJ.

 

They so much loved to "delve into the background" of the "era" (the era that you refer is also the era of their game, by the way) that the only solid reference to it within their game comes from a crazed Rodian black marketeer, and footnote references by an unimportant historian and those loading screen information sentences.

 

A lot of what you're describing had even been changed long before BioWare came along. Things like the term Sith, red lightsabers, and the history of the Jedi had not been set in stone in the 90s, and this led to continuity errors caused by various authors contradicting each other without even knowing it. When Lucas finally sat down and defined a clearer history, Tales of the Jedi and others like it became out of date.

 

Yeah. Every author published things in the period of 4000 BBY, to contradict the authors of TotJ. Allow me to enlighten you: TotJ was set on stone until a videogame came about that told an all-too-different tale, and made some success from emulating the feel of the Prequel Trilogy. Then TotJ was tossed to the wayside because:

 

i It is older (from the 90's)

ii It is a comic book, rather than a bloody videogame

iii It summoned the feel of a different galaxy, as it was supposed to, since we're talking 4000 years into the past

 

Lucas never "sat down" to define a clearer history. Lucas doesn't give a crap about the EU. Sure he used some things from the EU in his films, such as Anakin's scar, but he once said in an interview: "From what I care, Anakin could've gotten that scar by hitting his head on the bathtub" or something like that.

 

The ones who sat down to "define a clearer history" are the LucasArts executives, who see the profit the KotOR franchise gives, and the profit TotJ gave. And so, they carve Tales of the Jedi out in favor of the filmsy Knights of the Old Republic instead.

 

You're denying the might TotJ had in its own time: until KotOR came about, it was the final word to that era, and only its authors ever did publish anything at all regarding that timeline. If there was some author or work to contradict TotJ until KotOR, name it, and quote it, if you please.

 

Most of the changes the two developers made were stylistic ones. Technology that's falling apart and armored guys riding on the backs of flying robots were hard to portray at the time in a video game, and still are today. And in a lot of cases, they just thought it looked silly. These kinds of changes are common when adapting something from one media to anther. Stylistic elements of a comic don't always work in another format.

 

They thought warriors riding droids looked silly? Why is it then that the "moment of the life" of the Mandalorian character was his first plunge into a planet's atmosphere riding one such droid? The bloodsuckers of Obsidian also got it all wrong: their Basilisk was nothing more than a common starfighter.

 

I don't give a sh*t if changing the looks is quite common when adapting whatever into some different media. It's not supposed to be done, and that's that. Take all the games based on Lord of the Rings: they all leeched off Peter Jackson's views on the middle-earth. And PJ's views are very faithful to the Original Adaptations, those made by Ted Nasmith and the other drawers that gave colors and shape to Tolkien's world.

 

But then you scream that "TotJ doesn't look like Star Wars!" and I am getting tired of repeating that a galaxy ought to change a bloody hell of a lot in four bloody thousand years. An effort could've been made to pay a little more attention to the authors of a classic in Star Wars EU: TotJ. But they disregarded it completely. And mentioning Ulic and Exar here and there is not paying attention. Its the same as mentioning Darth Vader in the New Republic era works, and doesn't mean anything at all.

 

Furthermore, when designing K1, BioWare initially planned to have the game more connected to the Tales of the Jedi series. It was to take place sooner after the Sith War, and Bastila Shan was actually Vima Sunrider, a character from TOTJ. When they were not allowed to do this for legal reasons regarding the name Sunrider, they decided to stay away from the comics more than they planned, setting the game a full 40 years after the Sith War and 30 years after the last TOTJ comic; characters who might have made an appearance in the game were now just names from history, while others had their backgrounds rewritten to fit the new timeline.

 

Actually, when designing K1, BioWare initially planned to make a Rise of the Empire era game, with a plotline involving clones. But then LA cut their wings, and 'suggested' they made something in the period following Exar's war.

 

Thank God copyright infringement stopped them from putting a Sunrider into their story, soon after Exar's war with a Prequel Trilogy-looking game. I shiver to think of how much absurd would've come, with Padawans and no-marriage, and Councils and wedge-shaped Star Destroyers, Sith with red bladed lightsabers...

 

Characters who should be at least mentioned were not. Nomi appears in one line in the game, and the player doesn't even bloody recognize the name. Vima'd be pretty much a Jedi Master during that time, and only the heir to the greatest Jedi of a time, Nomi Sunrider. But I already said that, didn't I? Instead all we hear is Atris, Vrook and Vandar.

 

You're also conveniently ignoring one important plot point: both the Jedi and the Sith freakin died after the Sith War. This is not something new. This was shown in Tales of the Jedi.

 

Oh. So all of them died? Wouldn't there be a lot of Dark Jedi? What about those students that succeeded in slaying their masters? They didn't seem to be on Yavin when the Jedi struck. TotJ shows only a few deaths: Arca, Vodo, Ood Bnar, Odan-Urr, Exar Kun and Ulic. Everybody else.... guess what, they survived!

 

The Jedi Order, with many of the oldest masters dead, was rebuilt from the ground up by younger Jedi like Nomi Sunrider. There were no masters left to teach the next generation, and many of the great teachings were lost. Even the damn Jedi library at Ossus was destroyed, and this is mentioned in K2. In fact, Atris' motivation throughout the game is to prevent this from happening again.

 

There was still Thon. And there were those Jedi that learned from the great masters, such as Nomi, Vima, Tott Doneeta, Sylvar, Oss Wilum... And the hordes of unnamed (but not unimportant) Jedi that appear, for example, in the Exxis Station or in the Deneba Convention. Not every Jedi master died from Kun's pogrom. And few died on Ossus.

 

The "damn" Jedi library on Ossus was destroyed, but the Jedi evacuated on time. From what I can tell, only Cay and Ood died there, apart from the ones who died from the supernova when Aleema triggered it. But they were Jedi Knights, not Masters.

 

The Sith, on the other hand, were completely dead. In fact, they had been completely dead in Tales of the Jedi too.

 

Back it up with solid evidence. Kun and Ulic were dead, sure as hell. As were Aleema and Crado. The Massassi weren't really Sith, so they don't count. Many of Kun's apprentices who went over to assassinate their masters failed, or died just as they killed their masters. But not all of them. Hell, Sion's backstory tells he fought as a Sith Warrior in Kun's war! And so does Jorak Uln's story. Both were Sith Lords, if not only until after Kun was dead and gone. And there were the Krath: they went beyond just Aleema and Satal, they were many spoiled darksiders from the Tetan nobility.

 

Then they came back, caused a lot of trouble, and were then completely dead again! The Sith of KOTOR were different from the Sith of TOTJ; they were not trained by Sith, as Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, and the Krath had been.

 

So you weren't talking about Exar's crowd before? Too confusing if you ask me.

 

Of course they were different. But who taught them to be so? If they learned by their own accord, then they did so from the holocrons of Korriban. Exar and Freedon Nadd both learned from the same holocrons. Or maybe they didn't have any source of their "Sith teachings". So they're just a bunch of snot-nosed Dark Jedi, not true Sith. But allegedly the Sith from the Unknown Regions taught them (according to canon, the Sith Emperor from Dromuund Kas). So why would they forsake all their sorcery, for instance? They were, after all, the heirs to the Sith Empire of old, of spirits and Alchemy. Not red-bladed double lightsabers and black cloaks.

 

These were fallen Jedi, more like the original Dark Jedi that were cast out and later became Sith - no doubt why the conflict is later called the Jedi Civil War.

 

And now you refer to Revan's "Sith". If they taught themselves, then they're not really Sith. They're Dark Jedi with pretty trinkets. Kreia tires of stating this: the Sith is more than machines and ships (and pretty trinkets too, for that matter). The Sith is a belief, and more than that. One must master their arts: communing with spirits, carving knowledge from their holocron and their scrolls...

 

The conflict is called Jedi Civil War because its a pretty name (hmm... Galactic Civil War?!?), and because the greatest Sith were once Jedi. But isn't that true of all ages? Bane, Vader, Kun, Ruin... I see a pattern here. Maybe they were all "Civil Wars". Calling any of these wars a "Jedi civil war" is, however, a gross simplification. Because, by deffinition, a Sith must become a Sith by denying the Jedi way: they cease to be Jedi, cut all ties to the Order. The other way around is also true: a Jedi must deny the dark side and the Sith with all their heart, for him to remain true to the Jedi way.

 

They did scavenge the tombs of Korriban and other worlds, seeking out the knowledge of the past Sith Lords, but as clearly shown in K1, this wasn't something easy; the Sith had left traps behind, so their enemies couldn't steal their treasures, and only the most worthy Sith could survive and claim their secrets.

 

Yes. Every Sith that "graduated" from Korriban must surpass the challenges of Sadow's tomb. And there were many Sith. To name a few: Bandon, Yuthura, Uthar, Jorak Uln, Revan and Malak too, for crying out loud! The many Sith Revan kills along the way, but that have no name to speak of... Just how large was this tomb? Hmm... not very large, I can see that. So maybe its treasures, its traps and its terentatek regenerate! Nah. Who cares? Let's just drop it there, with as little thought to it as possible, and that'd be enough.

 

And the Knights of the Old Republic comics even portray a shadow organization of Jedi tasked with hunting down and destroying Sith artifacts from the war.

 

Really? Jedi don't destroy knowledge, fella. Even knowledge that can lead an unwary mind to the Dark Side. It is contrary to their belief: "There is no ignorance, there is knowledge." Of course they didn't study the Sith arts to theorize, for "knowledge's sake" or for "academic purposes". They studied the Sith lore to know their enemy, and know how to counter their works.

 

A "secret organization" of Jedi tasked with destroying any knowledge is a pathetic vertent of a commercial franchise. I tell you why: A Jedi CIA, that must fight the enemy at every chance, and every one of its aspects. It doesn't seem very becoming of the Jedi philosophy. Its more becoming of Nazi philosophy: we dislike our enemies, so we purge them from the face of the world. Let's burn Jewish paintings, jewish books, jewish people...

 

Again, this is not something new. The Jedi from TOTJ hid all knowledge of the Sith from their students as well. Others had made their way into the hands of those who couldn't grasp what they had - into museums and such. By KOTOR, the Sith were thoroughly dead twice over. And what secrets Revan did learn from the ruins of the Sith Empire, he kept hidden even from Malak.

 

Hiding knowledge is VERY different from destroying it. Your clumsy attempt to refer to Kun's research on the Sith during his apprenticeship under Vodo is quite flawed. All that Kun knew of the Sith came from Vodo's own holocron - a Jedi Holocron. Until, of course, he left Dantooine and made it to Onderon, where he came into contact with Nadd and the true Sith lore. Prior to that, all he had was the belief that the Sith were a people that mastered unique arts in the Force, and that these arts became associated with the Dark Side because the Sith were, themselves, corrupt. He believed he could separate the Sith arts from the Dark Side. Turns out he could not, and so he embraced the Dark Side because it was already too late for him.

 

By KotOR, there were Sith that came from Exar's time. The two named examples are Jorak Uln (only the Sith master from the academy on Korriban) and Sion, that was said to have fought Revan's war as well. As a matter of fact, the only proper Sith in K1 appears to be Jorak, despite his stupid looks (what's with the red-and-white eyes anyways), I really liked his character, more Sith-like even than Malak's. In K2 Kreia shows the makings of a Sith, but to the creators she isn't really a Sith Lord, but rather something grayish and who kills the Force.

 

As much knowledge as Revan withheld, Malak had two and a half years since Revan was "removed from office". Even before that, he had his own flagship, his own followers (likely even Force-users), and probably an apprentice. He seemed to have at least a degree of freedom to search, for instance, Ziost (which was the proper capital of the Old Sith Empire, unlike KotOR states) for artifacts.

 

The rest of your complaints are simply laughable. Even when the games are actually stylistically faithful to Tales of the Jedi, you find something to complain about.

 

Either game is never stylistically faithful to TotJ. They are stylistically faithful to Episodes I and II, through and through.

 

A padawan with an unusual apt for Battle Meditation, a skill that normally takes years to develop - yeah, Nomi Sunrider was supposed to be Bastila's mother.

 

Ohh. That's new. OK, so let's pretend I'm the KotOR creator. Here's me saying. Bastila Shan is Nomi Sunrider's daughter. OK, she must be Nomi's bastard to have a different name! Oh wait! Women don't really have bastards. Damn! So Nomi married Someone Shan! That's how she passed that name to her youngest child! Nah! Know what? Nomi belongs to TotJ, let's just put this Bastila Shan, daughter of anybody unimportant. Helena! That's it! That's her mother (she actually appears in the game, did you even know that?!?). Make her father an archaeologist, and lets be done with it. But what about Nomi? Let's leave her buried there alongside all that is TotJ. So to pretend we care, we mention her in one line in the entire game. But the response should show that people in our timeline don't really care about the hero of the Sith War, so the player doesn't recognize her in the end.

 

A walking corpse and a Force vampire would also fit right in with ghosts and a zombie in a tin can. Tales of the Jedi is known for its more supernatural take on the Force, by far more so than anything else in the Expanded Universe, and some of these elements show up in the games, more so in K2.

 

Ghosts aren't really Star Warsy, I guess. Obi-wan and Yoda should be retconned out after they died, then. Let's put a sign on Hoth, to point Luke to the right direction: go to Dagobah: there you'll find the last known Jedi Master. That would do, wouldn't it? And then let's have Luke perform a DNA test with Vader, to see if he's really Vader's son. Yes, that's a lot better.

 

The "zombie in the tin can" you refer to is not a zombie. He's not dead. He's simply tried to call forth powers that were too great for him to master, and his body deteriorated for it. Hell, there is even the same theory to explain Palpatine's looks. So this guy had really weak bones, therefore he needed a support exoskeleton to walk about. But Sion was a zombie, dead in thirty manners (and thirty-five or so by the game's end, since you kill him a grand total of five times before he decides to let go). Its qutie different. Ommin needed an exoskeleton to walk because he delved too deep into the Dark Side. Sion was dead and could walk because he delved deep enough into the Dark Side. Quite opposite, it seems to me.

 

The Dark Side is shown as more supernatural in TotJ, I agree. But its unique supernatural features were taken throughout the EU: holocrons, battle meditation, Sith sorcery, spirits of powerful darksiders and much, much more. But KotOR, as the movies, doesn't show anything beyond battle meditation.

 

If you have seen anything of Star Wars beyond the films, by now you should know that other writers have other perspectives, that they disagree a lot, and you should be used to it.

 

Well, I guess I'm guilty as charged. The only EU work I really know (asides from Clone Wars-based work, such as Ventress' Obsession story arc) is the Yuuzhan Vong and the Legacy Era (pure crap if you ask me). I don't go much beyond that because I know that's something that'd revolt me to my core.

 

But KotOR (and TOR even more than that) is a spit to my face: I grew up on TotJ.

 

Hell, even TOTJ contradicts itself all the time, because there were two writers on board - Anderson and Vetich - who each had their own agenda.

 

There is only one contradiction within TotJ (at least of proper significance, everything else relates to the transfer of the Tales to audio drama, subjected probably to a given script and the whims of a director) - Sadow's role in the Sith Empire. In The Dark Lords of the Sith (or the Sith Wars, I can't recall which) he is portrayed as a rebellious Sith sorcerer, who escaped the Emperor and hid on Yavin. The truth is very different: he was the Emperor (although self-proclaimed, despite the fierce rivalry of Ludo Kressh) and he was scurried out of his Empire by the Republic and the Jedi. But canon sets Sadow as the Emperor. Maybe the idiots at BioWare and Obsidian were unfamiliar with The Golden Age of the Sith and The Fall of the Sith Empire (the two story arcs devoted to Sadow and his Sith Empire), and that's why they concocted the "Sith Emperor of Dromuund Kas". It'd make sense, since in some of the TOR-related comics the Sith Emperor is (sigh) a human instead of a True Sith, and the lot of them in both trailers are all... hmmm... not True Sith either.

 

Star Wars is full of continuity errors and inconsistencies. If you have a problem with that, fine, but you can't blame it on one work that happens to not "fit in" with another from 15 years ago - especially when Lucas himself had already retconned the hell out of it, and when BioWare and Obsidian actually did try their best to keep the spirit of

Tales of the Jedi intact.

 

Yes, its full of errors and inconsistencies. Because creators (and LucasArts, for that matter) don't give a f*ck about what's already there. They don't do research, and if they do, they still twist and turn the facts to fit their view of things anyways. That's why the EU is such a mess.

 

And Lucas didn't retcon sh*t. He doesn't care about EU, as I said, although he incorporates some aspects into his own work. Who chooses what is canon or not are the high executives of LA, and they see only the numbers.

 

Its an absurd lack of respect for an author, despite the media, to disregard previous work so wholly as the creators of K1 and K2 did. Hell, they even go as far as tampering with how things were back then, as portrayed by Jolee's character and his "Jedi council and no-marriage" tales during the height of the Sith Wars, or the concept of the Sith Empire of old really drawing all they knew and could do from some lame space station factory. Or their absolute incorrect statement of the timeline (such as placing the Republic with only 15000 years of existance, where in truth it was 21000 years old).

 

If you were like any normal fan - and by normal, I mean overly obsessed - you would have decided on your own little history that sorted out all the errors, instead of just complaining about it to people who don't care.

 

Heh. You say you don't care, but you seem pretty prompt to take my posts and bloody post them somewhere else, don't you? It's gotten me to wonder if you disagree so whole-heartedly, why is it then that you took my arguments over someplace else?

 

And only after actually writing this kilometer-long post did I notice you not only copied my arguments over there, but you also copied JC's arguments over here. But oh well, just be yourself. Can't even come up with your own opinions. Heh.

 

Anyways, since I already wrote it all, I ain't changing a bit of it. So, although it was a complete waste of my time, consider your post replied, JC. And make me look silly, as you said. Or just say I'm a hypocrite and you won't spend your sacred time enlightening me. Besides, the post this little conman used to reply yours was used by me to reply another post of this thread.

Edited by Darth Primus
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I'm afraid I can't enlighten someone who blindly ignores facts and then proclaims their own opinions as truth rather than the ignorance that it really is. So this is the last I'm going to say on this matter, since I really don't like that I've been forced to defend people and works I don't like, I don't like having to criticize a work that I actually do like, I don't like enforcing my personal vision of a universe because I previously thought everyone has their own and should have their own, and I don't like agreeing with a lot of people here - in fact, I didn't think it was physically possible; you've made me part of the majority, and I hate being part of the majority - the majority is boring. So, anyway:

 

Star Wars is inconsistent. Get over it, or get out.

 

Lucas rewrote (scribbled on a napkin, but still) the history of Star Wars and it directly contradicted a lot of Tales of the Jedi, and everybody else followed his lead. Too bad.

 

Tales of the Jedi had comic book plots, comic book physics, and comic book art style, and a few developers didn't think that would work in a video game. That's the how the industry is.

 

You criticize Knights of the Old Republic for the same traits you consider the strengths of Tales of the Jedi. That's hypocrisy.

 

When those similarities are shown to you and when your complaints are explained away by facts, you ignore them. That's ignorance.

 

You make accusations and claims, and then fail to even try to back them up with any evidence. That's lazy.

 

You seem to believe there's a conspiracy to remove all traces of Tales of the Jedi from the world, and that LucasArts, BioWare, and Obsidian are all active partners in this dark agenda. That's just crazy.

 

The truth is, despite being an imaginative new take on the universe, and helping lead the way for a new generation of stories, Tales of the Jedi wasn't nearly as good as you remember - even Veitch hated how it turned out, because Anderson took over and changed everything, such as redeeming Ulic - and wasn't as consistent or coherent as you'd like to believe. I'm sorry, but saying the opposite doesn't make it so.

 

You ignore the possibility of a simple, logical explanation for any inconsistencies - such as the Sith War was so horrible that the new generation of Jedi destroyed all Sith artifacts, started banning people from marrying, restructured the whole organization to have a central authority, started using more consistent terminology like "Jedi Council" and "padawan" - and instead continue with your irrational line of thinking. That's lack of imagination, and that's not what Star Wars is about.

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I'm afraid I can't enlighten someone who blindly ignores facts and then proclaims their own opinions as truth rather than the ignorance that it really is. So this is the last I'm going to say on this matter, since I really don't like that I've been forced to defend people and works I don't like, I don't like having to criticize a work that I actually do like, I don't like enforcing my personal vision of a universe because I previously thought everyone has their own and should have their own, and I don't like agreeing with a lot of people here - in fact, I didn't think it was physically possible; you've made me part of the majority, and I hate being part of the majority - the majority is boring. So, anyway:

 

Star Wars is inconsistent. Get over it, or get out.

 

Lucas rewrote (scribbled on a napkin, but still) the history of Star Wars and it directly contradicted a lot of Tales of the Jedi, and everybody else followed his lead. Too bad.

 

Tales of the Jedi had comic book plots, comic book physics, and comic book art style, and a few developers didn't think that would work in a video game. That's the how the industry is.

 

You criticize Knights of the Old Republic for the same traits you consider the strengths of Tales of the Jedi. That's hypocrisy.

 

When those similarities are shown to you and when your complaints are explained away by facts, you ignore them. That's ignorance.

 

You make accusations and claims, and then fail to even try to back them up with any evidence. That's lazy.

 

You seem to believe there's a conspiracy to remove all traces of Tales of the Jedi from the world, and that LucasArts, BioWare, and Obsidian are all active partners in this dark agenda. That's just crazy.

 

The truth is, despite being an imaginative new take on the universe, and helping lead the way for a new generation of stories, Tales of the Jedi wasn't nearly as good as you remember - even Veitch hated how it turned out, because Anderson took over and changed everything, such as redeeming Ulic - and wasn't as consistent or coherent as you'd like to believe. I'm sorry, but saying the opposite doesn't make it so.

 

You ignore the possibility of a simple, logical explanation for any inconsistencies - such as the Sith War was so horrible that the new generation of Jedi destroyed all Sith artifacts, started banning people from marrying, restructured the whole organization to have a central authority, started using more consistent terminology like "Jedi Council" and "padawan" - and instead continue with your irrational line of thinking. That's lack of imagination, and that's not what Star Wars is about.

 

Nothing important or Earth shattering here, I just want to say that this post is my new favourite post on all of LF. Excellently said, JC. Thank you.

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I'm therefore sure that you will in turn respect my right to hold the opinion that your reasoning is flawed and irrevocably nonsensical.

You can think what you will, I don't cre. To me, your KotOR devotion is nonsensical.

It is unfortunate that you feel that way. Fortunately for me, however, I'm actually telling the truth when I say I no longer "cre", either.

 

I hereby withdraw. This is far too painful, even for me - I, who have written so many arguments with Revan wankers, Sith apologists, and the like that I could practically make a college thesis out of them all - but this is an individual who banks everything he says on non-evidence, argumentum ad nauseam ad infinitum, and holding stuff he doesn't like to absurdly precise standards that rely on irrelevant details from a comic series of extremely debatable quality. Congratulations, you have officially made me miss Darth Yuthura.

Edited by TKA-001
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It is unfortunate that you feel that way. Fortunately for me, however, I'm actually telling the truth when I say I no longer "cre", either.

 

I hereby withdraw. This is fair too painful, even for me - I, who have written so many arguments with Revan wankers, Sith apologists, and the like that I could practically make a college thesis out of them all - but this is an individual who banks everything he says on non-evidence, argumentum ad nauseam ad infinitum, and holding stuff he doesn't like to absurdly precise standards that rely on irrelevant details from a comic series of extremely debatable quality. Congratulations, you have officially made me miss Darth Yuthura. Garfield.

 

Fixed. Either way, we have a new winner. Sorry JC. :xp:

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Hehe. That's rare. I haven't helped but notice, JC, that while you were too busy acting high and mighty, you failed to present any solid argumentation yourself.

 

Anyways, the fact remains: KotOR and TOR is Star Wars for kids, clearly recognizable as such. I don't give a bloody hell whether you feel otherwise or not.

 

I lol'd. :D

 

@Primus: WWYBYWB? :wonder:

 

Heh. That's new. What, are you saying people who try to stand up and defend their opinions against the mass tend to get banned on this forum? Or are you comparing me to someone who already got banned? Well, I was never banned from any forums before, especially because I frequent forums where people tend to respect their differences and simply enjoy a little bit of debate, which doesn't seem to be the case around here.

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I'm sorry, I'm not sure why you would expect someone to form an argument against your lack of an argument and habit to ignore anything you don't like. What makes me high and mighty is that I actually did, rather than refusing to stoop to your level. What also makes me high and mighty is that you then ignored it like I knew you would. So I hereby decree my exercise in futility to be over.

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Oh, but it's quite the opposite. I was not ignoring what I don't like. I was arguing against it.

 

Meh, its strange that you accuse people here of a devotion to KotOR, yet your whole beef with KotOR is your own devotion to the comic books, a devotion so strong you come onto a KotOR message board and spend 3 pages arguing with the rest of a forum for the said comic books. That IS devotion, even if you try and say it's not. Regardless I find it curious that you come onto a website of a 7 year old game where the website still has a active community and your surprised to receive a critical reaction to harsh criticism of the game. I can only but inquire what you were hoping to achieve by coming onto a website of KotOR lovers and trashing the game? Were you really expecting a different reaction? Perhaps you thought all of us after 7 years of thinking the game was great were going to say after one thread by yourself, were to say "Oh yeah, actually this guy is right, the game I loved and has fun playing actually sucks"! What does it matter if they love KotOR? What's it to you? If they choose to love the game that's their choice, if you hate it, that's your choice, but everyone who disagree's with you is wrong?

 

I finally also find it very strange that KotOR 2 is classified as "Star Wars for Kids" yet it seems at least to me in the entire Star Wars canon of media, this is the most mature part of the media in terms of storyline and contents I have experienced. Whatever the other criticisms that can be leveled at K2, childish is not one that can be. I'm also pretty sure these days that almost all of Star Wars is for kids, given the direction Lucas has taken the films et al since ESB. Finally I somewhat feel the demography of this forum, and the fact the two KotOR games are RPG's argue against the statement that KotOR is for kids (especially given that the rating for both KotOR games is 13+ it seems more for teens and young adults than kids). Not that I necessarily see the issue with something being for Kids; KotOR is fun, and I enjoy playing it, if it's for kids that doesn't really matter seeing as most kids I know are considerably more knowledgeable in the art of having fun than most adults. Regardless this is my only contribution to the thread, there is little I can add that others haven't already said.

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Oh, but it's quite the opposite. I was not ignoring what I don't like. I was arguing against it.

No, you were complaining. An argument is a connected series of facts and conclusions in support of a position for or against a point. A complaint has no logic or reason and has no purpose. Complainers are not productive members of society; they make everyone around them aware of their dissatisfaction, without offering any valid reason for their dissatisfaction, or means of resolving their dissatisfaction - in other words, there is no purpose for them to complain. Complainers just cause misery for the people to whom they complain. People who cause misery for other people to no end are, in my experience, crazy people.

 

You have been complaining that you don't like Knights of the Old Republic, offering no reason for this, just further complaints. You expect me, and everyone else here, to convince you that the series is, in fact, not as horrible as you think. As I have said, I realize the futility of this attempt. Your complaints can all be attributed to a single issue - namely, that Knights of the Old Republic is not precisely like Tales of the Jedi.You do not dislike KOTOR because of anything in the series itself; you dislike KOTOR because it is not TOTJ.

 

Meanwhile, I have argued this point - that your feelings for the series are completely irrelevant. Your dislike of KOTOR is irrational. You don't like it because it's not something else. Because your dislike of the series is irrational, any attempt to argue with you over the quality of the series would also be irrational. You cannot contribute to a debate if you do not have an argument, and I cannot argue with someone who does not have an argument.

 

The points you list as reasons for your dislike of the series are meaningless. As I have said, one can easily apply many of your complaints of the KOTOR series to the Tales of the Jedi series. The reason for this is that these are not, in fact, reasons you dislike the KOTOR series. For example, you complain that the series lacks any originality - that it is at best inspired by the films and at worst a direct copy; while this itself is a valid issue for an argument about the quality of the series, it is not a valid issue in your complaint that KOTOR is not like TOTJ. If KOTOR were precisely like TOTJ, which you desire, it would indeed lack any originality - it would at best be inspired by TOTJ and at worst a direct copy. Any argument you could possibly claim is thus rendered invalid; the solution you offer is in fact identical to what you claim is the cause of the problem.

 

And as I have said, when an argument is invalid, it cannot be called anything but a complaint. I could go over your other complaints for you, but we have already established, my time is too sacred for that, and I'm too busy being high and mighty.

 

And even though I've already said this, I'm going to say it again. There are plenty of aspects about Tales of the Jedi I like - in fact, I like the series in general. There are plenty of aspects about Knights of the Old Republic I don't like - and don't even get me started on the MMO. But that's all irrelevant. This isn't an argument about the quality of either series, and real arguments of that kind tire me as it is.

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Complainers are not productive members of society; they make everyone around them aware of their dissatisfaction, without offering any valid reason for their dissatisfaction, or means of resolving their dissatisfaction - in other words, there is no purpose for them to complain. Complainers just cause misery for the people to whom they complain. People who cause misery for other people to no end are, in my experience, crazy people.

 

Do you mind if use this quote on other forums? Of course I'll give you credit for it. I couldn't describe "complainers" with better words than yours. ;)

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You have been complaining that you don't like Knights of the Old Republic, offering no reason for this, just further complaints. You expect me, and everyone else here, to convince you that the series is, in fact, not as horrible as you think. As I have said, I realize the futility of this attempt. Your complaints can all be attributed to a single issue - namely, that Knights of the Old Republic is not precisely like Tales of the Jedi.You do not dislike KOTOR because of anything in the series itself; you dislike KOTOR because it is not TOTJ.

 

You got it all wrong. I've been comparing KotOR to TotJ to show that TotJ is not a copy of the films where design and setting and feel is concerned. I never said KotOR should've been TotJ, or anything close to it. My argument in the beginning was: how to rationally explain a complete design turnover that took place in meager fourty years of galactic time, the result of said turnover being a galaxy extremely reminiscent of the one seen in the films. In other words, stylistically KotOR should resemble TotJ, or, like I said some (too many, actually) posts back, could at least differ from the films. If the design was different, nothing that should make KotOR such a "great" game would be harmed. The only problem is that if it were different from the films, many people wouldn't recognize it as Star Wars, despite its blasters, its lightsabers and Jedi and Sith.

 

The points you list as reasons for your dislike of the series are meaningless.

 

They don't seem meaningless to me, for they were the very points that made me dislike KotOR in the first place.

 

As I have said, one can easily apply many of your complaints of the KOTOR series to the Tales of the Jedi series. The reason for this is that these are not, in fact, reasons you dislike the KOTOR series. For example, you complain that the series lacks any originality - that it is at best inspired by the films and at worst a direct copy; while this itself is a valid issue for an argument about the quality of the series, it is not a valid issue in your complaint that KOTOR is not like TOTJ. If KOTOR were precisely like TOTJ, which you desire, it would indeed lack any originality - it would at best be inspired by TOTJ and at worst a direct copy. Any argument you could possibly claim is thus rendered invalid; the solution you offer is in fact identical to what you claim is the cause of the problem.

 

A game can be a lot more original than KotOR ever was. The first evidence of this would be looks. Further evidence, such as how people view the galaxy and act on it, and the power structure of the Jedi Order, would be as well.

 

So what's KotOR's idea of originality? Take over the feel and looks of Lucas' films.

 

All in all, I wouldn't desire KotOR to be like TotJ. I would simply like KotOR to pay the due respect to its elder, TotJ. Which it does not, through misquoting and concepts that are incompatible with the era KotOR's supposed to represent. And if TotJ's galaxy seems incompatible to you because of the Prequels, they still got 4000 years of history, that in the end doesn't make it incompatible at all. Look at the Roman Empire and the British empire, both set apart by 1000 years. They're quite different. It's called change. It comes with time, and the longer the time, the greater the change. But KotOR summons Lucas' galaxy, anachronistically, and in a manner incompatible with the previous canon source, TotJ. OK, Star Wars is discontinuous. But that's only true because there are authors like the creators of KotOR.

 

So if they wanted to craft something unique of their own in the first place, why not use the "blind hole" of 3000 years between Exar Kun (4000 BBY) and Darth Bane (1000 BBY)?

Edited by Darth Primus
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Of course there were masters to help guide the Jedi Knights. But there was no formal body, convened into a specific room in some Jedi Temple anywhere, to discuss the actions of the Jedi Order and set Knights to do the tasks the council felt was needed. This is how the Council acted during the Prequels, and the KotOR time period.

I was not saying formal body in the sense that you mean: I was essentially meaning to say that there were effectively small formal bodies, albeit not always in harmony with one another nor as an overall whole. These were among a ***lot*** of freelancing.

 

In TotJ, the most respected members of the Jedi Order were Masters (Arca, Thon, Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr). But their role was to give counsel, try to enlighten those that sought their wisdom, not to act as the central nervous system of the Order. However, KotOR and TOR attempt to put into that time period a Jedi Council that was just like that from the PT, that is why I feel it is so absurd.

Personally I just more got the impression it was as I said above. With such an abundant number of jedi throughout the galaxy, a full unity is improbable if not outright impossible.

 

Personally I'd say it's gone back and forth, as the population of jedi fluctuated, throughout the ages in the 20,000 years prior since the first establishment of the rebublic and the founding of the jedi order. It's irrational to believe it didn't or that it wouldn't have gone through various phases of more order to more freelance. I think parts of it were freelance and then there were parts that were more structured. TOTJ was just an aspect or P.O.V. where the Jedi Order didn't have that structure at that given place, time and circumstance.

 

I do not believe the games contradict this of TOTJ: those whom you mentioned were in the lesser formal part of the Jedi Order, meanwhile masters like Dorak, Vrook Lamar, and Vandar Tokaire lead the more structured part of it.

 

IIRC in the comics concerning the Draay estate and their associated Jedi, the freelancing vs more structure of the overall jedi order was (implicitly) the subject of much debate while they were explicitly discussing more specific things going on at the moment. Vrook saying something about a jedi order must ultimately be united if it is to continue to function as a single entity because they ultimately all follow the code for which the order is centered.

The comics were a transition between TOTJ and the games.

 

 

Another thing, whether you disagree with it or not, was the fact that even the wisest Jedi Master believed every Jedi to be the master of his own fate, and to be entitled to follow whichever path he chose, even the Dark Side. Thon and Odan-Urr say so, when Cay wills to rescue Ulic from the Krath, even when Ulic refused to be rescued and fell to the Dark Side. They only openly opposed him when he actually attacked the Republic and Coruscant itself.
I agree, and yet even this does not necessarily disqualify what I said above.

 

Despite the restrictions, Vader in the end of the Empire Era was more powerful than he was at the end of the Rise of the Empire Era.

Not as powerful as he could have been, and obviously not powerful enough to survive it very long. Any time before that debatably even less so.

 

Of course Vader dreamt of overthrowing the Emperor. He only did not do so, after twenty two years, even after Palpatine made his the absolute commander of all imperial forces, in the time leading to The Empire Strikes Back.

 

It *wasn't* the friendship, it was that Palpatine was all he had left of his previous life since he obviously didn't know about his offspring, nor had palpatine. Combine that with the fact Vader wouldn't survive overthrowing Palpatine for very long and you see he had little motivation to do so... and perhaps even was a little bit coercion into his position. At least implied.

 

All in all, Vader trusted his master until he saw Palpatine tried to replace him with Luke.

 

That's debatable. Palpatine tried numerous times to replace Vader and Vader knew it.

 

I do know Malak's wound came from Revan. And Kavar's not fighting the Mandalorian Wars has nothing to do with it. But he would've had plenty of opportunity of maiming Malak during the Jedi Civil War itself, in which Kavar participate. But it doesn't matter.
Conceded.

 

I did see the TOR videos. I only refuse to see the absurd reviews they make of the Great Sith War, because they have shown more than once to be incapable of relaying the story without altering fundamental things.

 

Then I return to what you said before:

 

First off, THERE WAS NO COUNCIL DURING EXAR KUN'S TIME. That's copyright infringement if you ask me, because the creator of the time period put nothing at all like it. And if it did exist, but didn't hold the authority KotOR and TOR claim it did, then it would have no real purpose, so why would Jedi even bother constituting a council in the first place?

None of this considers what I said farther above. TOTJ is merely a point of view of the entire picture.

 

To review: the jedi order had been established now for ~20,000 years. It is therefore not illogical to presume there were in fact parts of it that were central points of control in the overall order, like what we saw in the games and in the films. Consider: TOTJ may just have taken a point of view from a more freelance part of the Jedi Order AMONG the other more central parts of the order that may well have existed at the same time. Just because it's an order does not mean it is all coordinated nor in complete harmony.

 

It IS possible for the two scenarios to coexist. Whether these are tasteful/original/etc. are another matter entirely.

 

And if TOTJ definitively says (and I want specific evidence it DID say that) there was no organized jedi order whatsoever at that time, it still does not counter that the order could have decided on its own to pull into a unified body (like the games and films) soon thereafter. Nor does it discredit the notion that a unified jedi order (like the games and films) *could* have in fact existed at some point long before.

 

Revan did underestimate Malak. He gave his apprentice a ship to command. He gavve him followers, gave him an apprentice of his own, perhaps. And he allowed Malak to roam free even as he fought an important battle, such as the one in which Malak betrayed him. All in all, lil' jawless Sith Lord had plenty of opportunity to cross his master. And he did choose well the time to do it.

The only thing Revan underestimated was the timing and circumstances of Malak's attempted overthrow. He *knew* Malak's ambition was growing and that Malak would soon challenge him. It wasn't stupidity on Revan's part, it was ill timed and ill opportune events unfolding. Has nothing to do with underestimating some thing or the other.

 

You're conflating power in the force to wherewithal to prevent what happened which has more to do with foresight. Even so, one cannot foresee everything, and one does not have absolute control over reality.

 

Power in the force does not mean you can stop anything from happening especially if you can't see it coming. And even if he could see some of it coming like the outcome, one would have to be a master of reality itself by controlling life circumstances which is impossible.

 

It sure as hell makes it a lot easier, doesn't it? Yoda, for instance, was able to feel the clone's betrayal before it happened. And Anakin was all along being spinned around by Palpatine, which certainly that put a dent in his perceptions.

 

If Anakin was being manipulated the whole time then I think it's fair to say Anakin, despite being similarly powerful in the force, was even moreso blinded and moreso unable to stop events from unfolding. He may have seen the outcome, but he did not see that he would ultimately be the catalyst for it by trying to prevent it. He realized that his own greed and dark side in the very steps he took were what killed Padme, but it was too late.

 

What you said earlier:

Revan was at the heart of the Force. That's got nothing to bear with the discussion, and it even discredits him more, because being at the heart of the force, he couldn't even sense his partner's treason, and couldn't resist a bunch of sidewalk Jedi Masters cutting him off from his powerful memories and from the Force as well, in a way.

Again you're conflating power in the force to vision, and both of those still ultimately do not give anyone power over reality itself enough to prevent everything.

 

Again, Revan knew Malak was going to overthrow him, but he knew not when and where which made all the difference.

 

 

What do you mean 'Bastila seemed to have promise'?

Bastilla was no "sidewalk Jedi", or at least she wasn't going to stay that way.

Let's be fair while we're speculating (because that's exactly what you're doing) Revan hadn't reached full power yet either.

 

And why in blazes would he stand there and let the Jedi come and arrest him? He was the Dark Lord of the Sith, and he had the only creature who could rip some victories for the Republic in his grasp. With Bastila dead or removed from the equation, certainly the Republic would fall to the Sith Empire, and Revan could make the galaxy he wanted after all.

 

Maybe, maybe not. There is no way to tell. What you've said is JUST as speculative as what I've said. For all we know, Bastilla might very well have been able to match him at that point in juncture not having reached his full potential. Or any number of other things. That bastard Vrook might have taken him out. Or Vandar, Dorak, Zhar, Kreia (though I doubt she would have wanted to), Zez Kai Ell, Kavar, etc. It could have been anyone.

 

I'm not discussing advances in technology. I am stabbing the technological design, which sprouted from the Rise of the Empire and Empire eras.

 

All I was getting at was that there was no logical reason similar designs couldn't have existed before then. I agree and concur they made it a little too like the films, though. MUCH more than I would have liked, personally.

 

 

Summing it all up, I hate the fact they set KotOR to remind everyone an awful lot of the RotE era. The retcons and all the assumptions regarding everything, from the Jedi Council to the Rakatan Empire, came later, and strike me an awful lot as a misplaced excuse to me.

 

You DO have a point there.

 

Some more debate I'm not entirely sure is relevant...

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Could he really outduel Anakin?

One on one yes. Anakin did not match up overall.

 

You remove Sidious from the equation. Mace did not really trust Anakin,
Didn't trust anakin? IIRC Windu said "If what you've told me is true, you'll have gained my trust." He thought up to that point that Anakin wouldn't live up to exposing the sith. When Anakin told him who Palpatine really was, he trusted Anakin, but ordered that Anakin stay back because his judgment was clouded. Anakin showing up at that last moment, there wasn't exactly opportunity afforded Mace to explain what was happening because it was happening right then, let alone scold him.

 

but he had to cut the evil from its core. So, deal with Sidious first, then move to Anakin if necessary. If he had turned to subdue Anakin, then Palpatine would certainly join in. Hell, he might have lost his lightsaber, but his Force lightning could prove a major distraction, that'd give Anakin plenty of chances to reap Windu's head.

I did not remove Sidious from the equation. While you have a point about Sidious possibly helping Anakin out, this doesn't consider the only way Palpatine could've been able to convince Anakin to his side was to appear to be defenseless at that moment and stay until just the right moment. That was the whole point, he needed to convince Anakin that the jedi could not be trusted. Sidious had to time it just so that Windu was disarmed before he suddenly struck out--otherwise an emotionally unstable Anakin might have a moment to think albeit muddled.

 

Anakin taking a moment to think could have been all the edge Windu needed to take out one then finish the other off. But taking your side of it: Even if it more than likely could still have ended badly for Windu, Anakin would now have realized Sidious was not defenseless that whole time and at the least would have refused to join Sidious if not outright turned on Sidious right then and there. Sure Sidious promised him a power to save his wife, but Anakin already wasn't sure on that, so now Anakin would have had reason to mistrust Sidious.

 

Not to mention Sidious' battle meditation, which as I believe was the only reason Anakin could kill Dooku in the first place.

I have the ROTS novel, and this is mentioned nowhere in that entire book. This is just a theory, albeit a plausible one. Still, until there is evidence of this, its credibility will have to remain just a theory. So unless you could back this up...*shrug*

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Be civil people, if there are posts which break the forum rules please use the report post function. Please do not do to others that which you don't like being done to either yourself or other forum members.

 

I've been away, busy with work, so don't much feel like going through this entire thread at this juncture. If there are any posts you would like to bring to the Moderation teams attention then please do so. This thread is in serious danger of becoming locked! -- j7

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  • 2 weeks later...

And the dicussion is on. I suppose as long as we keep things about the source material (KOTOR and TOTJ, in this case) and not about ourselves i suppose we are within the forum rules.

 

Darth Primus is entitled to his opinion and to express it freely as do we. For me this thread has always been more about Tales of the Jedi rather than about KOTOR really. I haven't read the entire series previous to this post, but this discussion estimulated my curiosity. I went on and bought the STAR WARS: OMNIBUS volumes 1 and 2. So far i was able to read through the Rise and Fall of the Sith, The Beast Wars in Onderon and the Tale of Nomi Sunrider.

 

Sticking to my point that this trhead is about the value of TOTJ over KOTOR regarding its inovative storyteling and aesthetics. I will elaborate on my thoughts about TOTJ (my thoughts i insist. Clearly Darth Primus thinks otherwise).

 

First and foremost i haven't found a single idea both in soryline and in aesthetics that directly conflicts TOTJ and KOTOR timeline, besides the design of the ships in The Rise and Fall of the Sith Empire.

 

Personally i think the design in this particular series is dreadfull. It is a weird mix of Stargate: the Movie ideas and Conan, the Barbarian by John Buscema. There are some strange thechnology based on crystals and Ships that need to be hold by ropes apon landing. There is one Jedi Master who is just a Shellfish in a tank, which seemed to me more of a Green Lantern Corps idea raher than a SW one. Lightsabers have an external battery hold in the Jedi Waist (this design was depicted in the recent timeline video in the TOR website. Showing that Bioware is mindfull of the cannon)

 

In terms of storyline it is pretty weak. Naga Sadow is supposed to be the main vilain of the series, able to destroy an entire Star System but he is defeated by one of the most nonsense plot twists i have ever seen, perpetrated by one of the weakest characters ever created in Star Wars Universe, Gav Daragon (there is a curious discussion going in TOR forums about how Gav may be the True Sith Emperor in TOR timeline LOL).

 

The Beast Wars in Onderon is just a bit better. I couldn't find anything in there that directly conflicts with KOTOR, as if KOTOR was aiming in a storyline and aesthetic more related to the prequels.

 

There is a Jedi Master with apprentices (Master Arca and Ulic), the Jedi Master is called "Master". They wear robes or capes (Master Arca resembles the one with the paldrons from KOTOR). Ulic-Qel Droma (the lead character) ship has a catch name, Nebulon Ranger, in the tradition of Millenium Falcon and Ebon Hawk. There isnt a mention of a Jedi Council but there is no deny either. The relations between Jedi resembled to me the one of the Green Lanterns, which brings the idea of a higher council ruling it all.

 

The Beast Wars series has one of the worst paces in comics. It reminded me that Image Comics aesthetics, all about splash pages and no plot, no rhythm, no character development.

 

The tale of Nomi Sunrider scalates the ladder a little bit. The design is very similar in tone with SW universe. Some species depicted there were used in KOTOR 1 and 2. There is a Hutt crime lord with a gang composed of Weequays, Nikto's and Baradas much like the original movies and i couldn't find any lack of harmony with KOTOR, except the fact that Nomi's was married to a Jedi.

 

All things considered and weighted i now more than before believe that if it would be fair to compare an interactive entertainement as KOTOR with a Comic Book, as the OP proposes, i would say that KOTOR is far more superior than it's predecessors without neglecting too much the continuitu stablished in the comics, with the exception of the things that made no sense in a SW universe.

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