D'akt Sangwar Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 i dont think maul would have fit in ep2 for 2 reasons count dooku seems more sophisticated while maul seemed to be a tool of destruction for sidious to play with, i mean the guy was 2 loyal, heeheheh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCanr2d2 Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 It still has it's mystique, but they had to remove the religious overtones that many people had made the Force and Jedi. Why not quote an adult talking to a child about something complicated, of course he is going to simplify the whole thing, rather than give the full explanation that many people wanted. We know there are non-Force sensitive beings, but after all does a 8 year old really need to know the ins and outs of who does or doesn't have the force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempest8008 Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 Originally posted by BCanr2d2 It still has it's mystique, but they had to remove the religious overtones that many people had made the Force and Jedi. Why not quote an adult talking to a child about something complicated, of course he is going to simplify the whole thing, rather than give the full explanation that many people wanted. We know there are non-Force sensitive beings, but after all does a 8 year old really need to know the ins and outs of who does or doesn't have the force? You think Qui-Gon was lying to Anakin? I don't think that was in his character...I think he was being as honest as he could be, and you forget that Qui-Gon had Obi-Wan test the blood sample for the levels, and that they were higher than even Master Yoda's. If he was prevaracating for Anakin's benefit, Obi-Wan wouldn't have acted the way he did. I think they actually believe the medi-cloriens DO give them access to the Force. As to eliminating the religious overtones...why not keep them? They've taken a very Zen-like and mysterious, mystical Force and made it into science.... Here's one other thing though, Qui-Gon says, "They constantly speak to us, telling us the will of the Force." That to me means that medi-cloriens are just a conduit through which the Force flows. Maybe it just makes the Force easier to access. Maybe that's how Darth Vader eliminates the Jedi, he creates a plague that kills medi-cloriens, and without it the Jedi can't access the Force. Yoda escapes, and discovers that the Force is still there, but it has to be "accessed" in a different way. Medi-cloriens may be a crutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 I didn't find tpm bad at all...just a little too much jar jar, but what doesn't kill me can only make me stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 I had the benefit of separation ... seeing it first on video with my young kids. So I wasn't so geared up, didn't have the OT on video ... didn't have the expectations. However, TPM clearly didn't live up to the OT IMHO. I do like it, quite a bit, it just wasn't at the same level. Some of my thoughts: - the whole Force thing - I have mixed feelings about this. I agree with many that the de-mystification doesn't help much, but it is not a 'flux capacitor' thing either. - The time-line. This bugs me the most. In EpII we'll see hundreds of Jedi in very important roles, but EP IV is only 20-ish years later, and we're talking 'some ancient religion'? I know that EpIII must feature an important twin birth, which constrains ages, but 20 or so years is a very short time for so much to transpire, especially in the stuff people are thinking. Maybe EpII and III will show that the Jedi, while powerful, are only really known at the inner circle of Coruscant. Maybe that is part of the whole 'the republic doesn't exist out here' ... but then Watto and Anakin immediately have intuition of what a Jedi is about. - Jake Lloyd ... plays like a soft, Cali Kid with a bit of dirt smeared on his face. I've never experienced *real* hardship, but have been through areas where I have seen kids who look more like you would expect a poor slave. The council emphasizes how much fear and anger is in him, but he looks like his major stress in life (like my kids) is about why Mom and Dad won't buy him a toy every time we go into Toys 'R Us ... oh, by the way, he can't act either. - The Pod Race. Sure it was cool, and I suppose important, but when seeing and hearing about things that were cut - like more Darth Maul development - it is a shame to have the race take up so much time. - No major issue with Jar Jar, but the underwater passage scene was a bit long. I would rather they left Obi-Wan's shorted saber and trim some here. - Darth Maul - I thought he was a cool character, but was underdeveloped, I wish he had gotten a bit more screen and dialog time. I have no problem with him dying - or the way he died. - More effort could have been put into showing the frail state of the republic, but I suppose that is coming ... OK, there was stuff I *really* liked: - Use of the Force. Makes the OT seem wimpy - why didn't Luke just Force Push those guys off the speeder bikes? - Saber battles: The opening battle with QG and OBW cruising through all of the driods and then using force speed down the hall ... then the Naboo court and hanger battles ... then the final duel ... ahhhhh. JKII is now my favorite game ever, so it is no surprise that I love those battles and look forward to EPII. Mike **SPOILER ALERT *** - ObiWan did very well with the Bongo underwater, showing mechanical resourcefulness not likely for someone who 'doesn't like to fly' and has spent his like on a city-planet. - I hope EpII clears up why the force prescence is apparent for Jedi, and even between Vader / Luke, but not Palpatine. - As for Dooku, he was a tremendously powerful Jedi, supposedly Qui-Gon's master, who left the order in disgust after Qui-Gon's death. It is possible that Palpatine used this against him to turn him to the Dark Side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sartori Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 blatant racial stereotypes in alien characters. to many models/characters/costumes whose sole purpose seemed to be "well it will make a cool toy" ah the all powerful dollar reduction of the force to a biological vs spiritual explanation caves in to religious pressure to make it "less objectionable" and sell more tickets. flashy vs effective fight choreography in light sabre combat. blatant openings and terrible moves make it seem like kids with broomsticks vs the warriors with a 1000+ year tradition of sword like combat. This is an unfortunate trend in modern hollywood witness such atrocities as “the musketeer” the number of happy accidents in the final battle jar-jar and ankain together manage to "accidentally" cripple the entire attack force. not to emply the whole movie sucked, but with a bit more thought and creativity (something IMO lucas has lost since moving into the ivory tower) it could have been as magical as the first (4th) ------------------------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 Originally posted by Sartori blatant racial stereotypes in alien characters. Like what? to many models/characters/costumes whose sole purpose seemed to be "well it will make a cool toy" ah the all powerful dollar I think that is backwards - the movie had more kid-focus, which leads to more kid-appeal items, which - when teamed with the hyperactive marketing machine - leads to super-saturation of useless toys. reduction of the force to a biological vs spiritual explanation caves in to religious pressure to make it "less objectionable" and sell more tickets. Really? That is different than anything else I've heard - do you have a source that shows how the ultra-religious wingnuts put financial pressure (i.e. boycott threats) on Lucas is he didn't make the Force more physical? flashy vs effective fight choreography in light sabre combat. blatant openings and terrible moves make it seem like kids with broomsticks vs the warriors with a 1000+ year tradition of sword like combat. This is an unfortunate trend in modern hollywood witness such atrocities as “the musketeer” I'm not a purist, I - like many - thought the saber dueling was one of the best things. the number of happy accidents in the final battle jar-jar and ankain together manage to "accidentally" cripple the entire attack force. Agreed ... the death star(s) were blown up by Force and skill, not by 'I wonder what this does'. Jar Jar, on the other hand, while doing quite a bit, was ultimately captured as the Gungans 'lost'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 the number of happy accidents in the final battle jar-jar and ankain together manage to "accidentally" cripple the entire attack force. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Agreed ... the death star(s) were blown up by Force and skill, not by 'I wonder what this does'. Jar Jar, on the other hand, while doing quite a bit, was ultimately captured as the Gungans 'lost'. Luck has always played a huge part in the SW universe, it's Han Solo's greatest strength... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sartori Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 Originally posted by txa1265 Like what? Jungans pseudo dreads for ears and really bad Jamaican accents. Lead pipe anyone? Flying blue boy (whatever its name was) big nose, jewish accent, merchant and a slave owner- just lovely eh? I think that is backwards - the movie had more kid-focus, which leads to more kid-appeal items, which - when teamed with the hyperactive marketing machine - leads to super-saturation of useless toys. so you think for a min that the first thing on every model makers (scratch that, the designers may be artists, so lets say approvers ie. Managerial types) mind wasn’t hey will this sell well? Sure it wasn’t. battle droids, tank designs etc. look at the battle tactics employed? This is modern warfare? Give me a break, but the catapults will be cool toys wont they? Sigh.. Really? That is different than anything else I've heard - do you have a source that shows how the ultra-religious wingnuts put financial pressure (i.e. boycott threats) on Lucas is he didn't make the Force more physical? absoulely it had been happening for quite some time, (since ep4 was released) no overt pressure (threatened boycotts by large numbers etc) but by making that one simple change its no longer an issue, lucas in effect says “hey, see its biological its not a religion” and thereby avoids the controversy entirely. I'm not a purist, I - like many - thought the saber dueling was one of the best things I am. ep4 showed 2 masters facing off (real sword play is in the subtleties, example: by dropping your guard 1 inch you expose your forearm, is this intentional to draw the attack or a slip in concentration?) Watch ep4 in slow mo there are several changes of engagement and intentional maai, then compare it to ep1 where the blades are swung like broomsticks, the openings are large, obvious and unexploited. dramatic effect vs accuracy. Symptoms of the decline of detail in Hollywood moviemaking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borf Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 portman is hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ae0N Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 Well I didn't read this whole thread, but here are my gripes about Ep1. I thought they wasted too much time on the pod racing, too much time in to developing the race and how he was preparing for it. Also Jar Jar is a complete waste of space, if he ever actually did something his role may have been justified. I also think that Maul wasn't looked upon too much, I mean the guy only showed up in a few scenes and then he's dead, lucas could have spen more time developing Maul into a proper villian rather than cannon fodder for the big fight scene. Compared to the other 3 movies the battles lasted alot long, Maul died to quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caldera Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 I was just thinking about it and i noticed Sartori is so right. The fights in the OT did not look flashy at all, but that is how a real swordifght would be. The ones in Ep1, even to a non-swordsmaster like me, looked like they both left themselves WAY too open. Like one step back and poke in the back = death. So far from the trailers i have seen Ep2 seems to have gotten rid of this 'flashy fighting' and added in some real sword combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X R Kun Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 the acting. It was horrendous! that kid playing anakin acted like he was on barney! and jar jar binks was the biggest mistake george lucas ever made (second to directing ep1) And why in the hell did they explain the force scientifically? Isnt the force suppose to be something mysterious and phenomenon? Oh well , george could destroy wat he created rite? ps. jar jar is returning in ep2..the horror...the horror.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talef Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 To the whole force debate, I believe that Lucas made it more biological or scientific, but kept much of the mystery. For example, Qui Gon explains that medichlorians are symbiots that give access to the force not the force themselves. Also the Jedi still seem to be somewhat religious to me, verging on being a Monastic Order. And even though Anakin had this vast amount of medichlorians he was not capable of tapping into the force through them until he was trained to do so. Not to mention that the force being tied to biology was already alluded to in the original trilogy. As to the whole saber fights, sure they are made to look good, but that is what movies are about. And who is to say what we see as an opening for us wouldl be to these warriors, I mean they do have special abilities including precognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borf Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 the space battles could have been a bit better but the jedi fight scenes certainly kick ass (much more realistic than the original trillogy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham Yoyo Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 I liked TPM. Not on a level with the original trilogy but the only movies that came close to it the last 10 years were Jurassic Park and Titanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prowl lightstar Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 I think Sidious intended the maul, kenobi, jinn fight to happen as it did. After all he needs obi wan to mess up anikins training so he can become darth vader. Maul was the sacrificial pawn and he got a queen in return, Darth vader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerfectSky Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 I think that the worst things with Ep1 was that they cut Mauls cool speach (you know "Fear is my allie.." a.s.o) , that they wasted Maul... and the kid playing anakin in Ep1.. HE TOTALLY SUCKS !! sure , Child actors aren´t that good , but they could have used ANY other for anakin.. I mean.. The kid playing anakin looks stoned or something. --------------------------------- I am the Ghost who walks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 I think Sidious intended the maul, kenobi, jinn fight to happen as it did. After all he needs obi wan to mess up anikins training so he can become darth vader. Maul was the sacrificial pawn and he got a queen in return, Darth vader. But Sidious didn't even know who Anakin Skywalker was at that point...He certainly didn't know enough to know that Obi Wan would 'mess up' Anakin's training. Even if we assume he did know about Anakin...what if by luck Obi Wan did a perfect job? Then Sidious would have yet another extremely powerful enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky_fox Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 Jar Jar needs to die, a slow painfull light saber vrs. body part dismembering death, make this into a 2 hour film in its own right and you'l have a block buster on your hands, or a film where they clone Jar Jar and have thousands of them running around this could go for the guinness world record for most annoying film ever made. apart from Jar Jar I loved the movie, and have watched it lots of times, but the original movies are still (and will always be) the best. reguarding medichlorians, I think I can understand why lucas has introduced this element into the story, it was first raised in the Jedi Acadamy trillogy of books... Luke finds some old imperial technology which can show how much force power an individual has, he uses it to identify potential candidates but its original purpose was more sinister. This is the tool that the empoper gave to his jedi extermination squads to eliminate all jedi, I think lucas is putting this plot element in place during the first movie so that he can show how the empire hunts down and kills the jedi in the next movies. I did prefer it more as a mystic religion rather than a science but as there where not many jedi by the time of ANH I can see that people might be forgetting the science behind it and only see the magic, so its not out of sync with the tale after all. am I the only one that thinks christopher lee as count dracular with a light saber is a bad move and has the potential to smell of cheese, dont get me wrong I like mr lee, great actor but why have a dracular type figure in the movie, he is capable of so much more, naming his character "count" sets my spider senses tingling (which is quite a trick as I dont have any spider senses) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XERXES Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 "Jar Jar needs to die, a slow painfull light saber vrs. body part dismembering death" :D :D :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XxWinnaRxX Posted May 8, 2002 Share Posted May 8, 2002 What's wrong with Episode One? two things, each three words: 1. Jar. 2. Jar. 3. Lives. 1. Darth. 2. Maul. 3. Dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 The whole handling of the "Jar Jar Binks" character, and some of the uber-cornball lines that Jake Lloyd had to say. Other than that, I didn't have a real problem with the film. As Sci-Fi it was entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirus Posted May 9, 2002 Author Share Posted May 9, 2002 Just Taking up a point Sparky Fox Brought up (QUOTE) ''reguarding medichlorians, I think I can understand why lucas has introduced this element into the story, it was first raised in the Jedi Acadamy trillogy of books... Luke finds some old imperial technology which can show how much force power an individual has, he uses it to identify potential candidates but its original purpose was more sinister. This is the tool that the empoper gave to his jedi extermination squads to eliminate all jedi, I think lucas is putting this plot element in place during the first movie so that he can show how the empire hunts down and kills the jedi in the next movies.'' When u think of it this way Qui Gon does'nt explain it to Anaikin in the first 1 and then in EP 3 Palpatine suddenly has this magic weopon that can track Jedi, so when you look at it like that maybe Old Lucas new what he was doing and will all make us eat our words for doubting his 'Explaining the Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Midichlorians do not 'explain the Force' nor do they remove its mystery. The Force is STILL a mystical energy field, it's just that now why know why some people can direct it, and some people can't. It makes sense to add this in, for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the one mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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