C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Without abortion, men have a powerful tool to dominate women with and keep them out of the workforce. This has been done for centuries and is one of the main causes of sexual inequality. How? When a women is pregnant, she's preoccupied for at least 5 years taking care of the child. If a man can constantly keep her pregnant, he can constantly keep her from working - dominating the home with his income and leaving his wife to taking care of the kids. Why, can't the wife just give her babies away? Well, for one, the mother develops a strong bond with the baby during pregnancy - it's not just something you just do. Secondly, the husband is sure to have a say in this matter. Let the woman have the choice in pregnancy. Crado: I'm not the one being narrowminded here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acdcfanbill Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Some Good discussion going on here people, make sure to keep it civil and respectful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Thanks ACDC, if this gets more out of hand or degrades to name calling, I'll personally close this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by cjais Why, can't the wife just give her babies away? Well, for one, the mother develops a strong bond with the baby during pregnancy - it's not just something you just do. Secondly, the husband is sure to have a say in this matter. If she has bonded to it so much how can she go and abort it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by ZDawg If she has bonded to it so much how can she go and abort it? Because you abort it early in the pregnancy. As far as I've heard, we're talking about a major psychic backlash here, but who am I to know - me being just a boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyOneCanoli Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 My personal view is that it's wrong. I believe that when you abort a pregnancy, you are destroying the possibility of life. I would much rather see a woman accept the responsibility for her actions, and put the child up for adoption if she cannot support it. There are cases, of course, that abortion should be allowed. If the mother's life is in danger, if she was raped, if it was incest, etc. If I accidentally impregnated my girlfriend, I'd be ashamed to have an abortion. That's my personal belief. I would, however, not stop her from making the final decision. If you can't figure it out yet, I do not support state laws against abortion (i.e. illegal abortions). The woman should have the right to choose (in accordance with Roe v. Wade), even though my personal beliefs (non-religious, being an atheist myself) are against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 It's good to see there's some reasoned debate going on about this topic...because the question at the top of this thread is really hard to answer, especially if you are of the male gender. By that I mean, until you actually become a father (i.e., your partner becomes pregnant, which I view as the beginning of parenthood), you have absolutely no frame of reference on such a decision. Ten years ago, I would have said...hey, the woman carries the baby, it's her body and it should be her choice what to do with it. I can't say the same today. One single event totally changed my perceptions and feelings on the matter...the day my wife had a miscarriage. We had both decided to start a family...and we were overjoyed when we learned she was pregnant. Things were going great until about 12 weeks in...and then it all went totally, horribly wrong. It's not until your unborn child dies that you can fully appreciate life itself. And yes...I do view it as a child, not a lump of cells, or a fetus, or whatever else you want to call it. To view it as anything other than my child would be a betrayal of it's struggle for life and eventual demise, IMHO. I can tell you, plain and simple, that loss tore my guts out...as a father. It takes two people to make a baby...and both should be prepared for their eventual responsibilities as parents. I know I was... You see, although that baby grew in the womb, and was going to be my wife's responsibility for the first 9 months until it was born...that child was also a part of me. I helped to create that life...and as it's father, I perceived that I had a right to some say in what happened to it. Except any decisions were totally taken out of our hands. Yes, there are occasions (such as rape cases) where a child is not wanted...where it is forced on someone, and that is truly regrettable. I still can't decide where I stand in that scenario...it doesn't seem right that a woman has to bear that kind of responsibility after such a trauma. But if we're talking two mature adults seeking parenthood...and the woman decides to have an abortion...I just can't agree with that any more. Also, when we lost our first child, I was totally appalled by the lack of emotion or dignity the medical profession afforded it. Because their view is that it was not really a child at all, simply a fetus (a bunch of cells), they treated it like a piece of meat. The only good thing that came out of that experience, is that afterwards I wrote the hospital a letter, telling them how I felt as a father...and some of their processes in dealing with such situations actually changed. So, from where I'm sitting now, as the proud father of two boys, I can't agree with the taking of a life...no matter how early, or at what stage...and perhaps, even, for what reason. Of course, that's just my opinion, and I'm not trying to foist it on anyone else. I just feel that a lot of people make a decision based on what they think is right, without having a true frame of reference for such a decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 It can't feel, it can't think. And how would you know? I don't know about you I can't remeber anything much in my mother. But then I can't remember when I was 2 or 3. A little around 4. It might still think in it's mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK_Nutritious Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Another question to pose to you, what do you base your beliefs on what is right and what is wrong? Why is murder wrong? Because that's how you were taught? that's what the law says? If you say it's ok to kill because it hasn't developed nerves, does that mean it's ok for me to kill someone in their sleep? They probly won't feel it, besides they're gonna die anyway it's better this way isn't it? I disagree. If a parent does not wish to take the responsibility for their actions adoption is always an option to take. You say this option is ruled out because mothers tend to develop an emotional attachment to the child during pregnancy. This is the natural order of things, I say the more love in the world the better. To say it would be better to destroy the possibility of falling in love with a life created within/via (female/male) you, rather than allow it the chance at a long and happy life is a flawed logic. In closing I'm glad my mother had the conviction and love for me that she didn't decide to terminate my life before I had the opportunity to lead my own life. For one to support the destroying of others' lives before those had their chance, yet enjoy the fact that their own life was allowed to progress seems to me to be the biggest form of selfishness and hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by cjais Without abortion, men have a powerful tool to dominate women with and keep them out of the workforce. This has been done for centuries and is one of the main causes of sexual inequality. How? When a women is pregnant, she's preoccupied for at least 5 years taking care of the child. If a man can constantly keep her pregnant, he can constantly keep her from working - dominating the home with his income and leaving his wife to taking care of the kids. Why, can't the wife just give her babies away? Well, for one, the mother develops a strong bond with the baby during pregnancy - it's not just something you just do. Secondly, the husband is sure to have a say in this matter. Let the woman have the choice in pregnancy. Crado: I'm not the one being narrowminded here. You know how she gets to chose..... SHE DOESN'T HAVE SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rape you say? Oh please though it does happen 75% of abortion come from people who had the fun and did not want to pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondrahosek Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Agree with you, TK_Nutritious. People who abort the pregnancy don't realize that there are also some people who DO want to have a baby. So they can adopt it... Easy as anything... And if you want to prevent pregnancy, there are other "tools" (makes me feel like a pervert ) to do this... I am human. I have a life. I have feelings. And those feelings can easily get hurt. Never try to hurt them, for then they turn cold-hearted against you. Religious people call the life and the feelings the soul. It can be poked or hurt, but it will be always there. I am quoting myself here. I know a lot abot psychology, and parts of it have to do with religion. Though I am not religious, I am not discriminating religious people. Er... how old are you, TheWhiteRaider? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZePhyR Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 I'm not even going to read this thread. But is it really nessecary to talk about this on a forum where there are mostly young teenagers browsing around? Is this something they really need to discuss? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondrahosek Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by ZePhyR I'm not even going to read this thread. But is it really nessecary to talk about this on a forum where there are mostly young teenagers browsing around? Is this something they really need to discuss? I don't think so. This is the future, ZePh... Nowadays, all this is a subject even of teenagers... No one knows why... Or do you? I don't think so. Today it's just as normal as girls talking about the new albums of Shakira (analogy)... The one whole subject, sex, IS what teenagers are mostly interested in... Do you disagree, ZePh? This post means no offense to anyone. If anybody does not like it, feel free to delete it, but please don't ban me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Er... how old are you, TheWhiteRaider? 16 on Janurary 11 why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondrahosek Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 16 on Janurary 11 why? Well, people have sex mainly for pleasure...and I thought you would know it... Getting banned in 12 seconds.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Yes I do know. That is the problem. Well a news flash. That is not what sex is for. So it doesn't matter what you have it for you are getting all of it even if you don't like it and maby you can think of that before you have sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 I believe abortion is wrong. I don't understand the saying "It's a women's right to choose". It doesn't have anything to do with abortion inherently. It just gets women to instinctively shut up by making them afraid they'll be taking away their own precious hard-fought rights just by this one issue, and the same for men afraid of infringing on women's "right to choose" period - implying that if you take away abortion no women will be able to choose anything. It's a silly psychological trap. (I know when I first heard "women's right to choose" I thought I was totally in support of it! Until I knew exactly what the choice was.) Without abortion, men have a powerful tool to dominate women with and keep them out of the workforce. This has been done for centuries and is one of the main causes of sexual inequality. That's an unfair argument. Inferring from that, pregnancy is a great evil. Except none of us would be here without it. You would have been right, say, fifty years ago, when men controlled their wives in marriages, but it isn't like that anymore. My mother was pregnant four times while in the workforce, and she never left it. She has had two abortions and...well...when you have as many children as her, and love them as much as she does, there's always the knowledge that the two babies she chose to abort could have been children like us...and knowing that how could you say an unborn baby is not a life? What about the baby who was denied life so her/his mother could have fun an extra nine months?? *Handy Topic Switch Alert!* I'm not even going to read this thread. But is it really nessecary to talk about this on a forum where there are mostly young teenagers browsing around? Is this something they really need to discuss? I don't think so. Where do you come from all holier than thou and attack us out of the blue? If you aren't going to use freedom of expression, it doesn't give you the right to squelch ours. grrrrr. -.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider And how would you know? I don't know about you I can't remeber anything much in my mother. But then I can't remember when I was 2 or 3. A little around 4. It might still think in it's mother. It can't think because it doesn't have a brain, nor a nervous system. Of course, this involves aborting the child before it has developed such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 I do not regard life as holy. Nor is marriage some holy union - it's a practical commitment in many ways though. Women need to have the choice because a pregnancy is not "fun" for the woman, and the man couldn't care less from his own point of view. All this comes down to that you shouldn't have sex before marriage and that sex is something only done to procreate. It's not going to happen and humans have developed to such a stage where they do practice sex for pleasure and nothing else. Some countries are already nearly dead religiously speaking and abortion is freely used in them. Ireland, being the most religious european country are constantly shifting their opinion towards abortion toward yes. Many people are each day realizing that times have changed and that we are deep down animals that have needs - sex without having to worry about the child afterwards being one of them. Stormhammer, I know I'd feel the same way as you, and that when my time comes to have a child, my opinion might change. But maybe the 16 year old girl won't feel the same way - maybe she think pregnancy is hell, and that she isn't ready to cope with a child just yet. Give her the choice, don't enforce your view of the world onto her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by cjais I do not regard life as holy. Nor do I...but I value life above all other things. ...and the man couldn't care less from his own point of view. This may be true of some men...but not all. Don't tar everyone with the same brush. Many men are extremely supportive of their partners throughout pregnancy. Given the choice, I'm sure some men would prefer to stay home and look after their partners throughout the term of pregnancy...but society doesn't work that way. Just because you're not carrying the baby around, going through morning sickness and all the rest of it...doesn't mean you don't care, and can't empathise. All this comes down to that you shouldn't have sex before marriage and that sex is something only done to procreate. It's not going to happen and humans have developed to such a stage where they do practice sex for pleasure and nothing else. Well, you're entitled to your viewpoint...but I'm entitled to disgree with it. Yes, people have sex for pleasure...but your inference is that it's solely for the purpose of self-gratification. I have to disagree...because if you are mature enough, you understand the consequences of sexual activity, and you plan for when you are ready to have a child (if ever). Stormhammer, I know I'd feel the same way as you, and that when my time comes to have a child, my opinion might change. But maybe the 16 year old girl won't feel the same way - maybe she think pregnancy is hell, and that she isn't ready to cope with a child just yet. Give her the choice, don't enforce your view of the world onto her. Therein lies the crux of the problem. As far as I'm concerned, a 16 year old (male or female) is still not mature enough to deal with the consequences of sex...and I don't just mean pregnancy. Teenage pregnancies are increasing, and people are exploring sex at younger and younger ages...which is one reason why I totally agree with sex education in schools. However...sex education should not be conducted in isolation...because it doesn't look deeply enough at the consequences of pregnancy and parenthood. Some of this is now changing...and in the UK at least some schools are now exploring responsibilities as parents, and real-world living. Personally, I don't think someone is ready for parenthood until they're about 20. They've finished growing themselves by that time, and hopefully they've left their parents home and got real-life experiences under their belt by then, and should have a more mature outlook on the world in general. I don't mean to preach, but I'll offer a little advice. Don't even contemplate having a child...until you have left your parents home, and have assured yourself that you can stand on your own two feet, and are willing to shoulder the responsibilities of your own destiny. If you're comfortable managing your own affairs, then you're ready to start looking at managing the affairs of others, namely a child. If you can't manage your own affairs, you're opening yourself up to a world of hurt when a baby comes along. I see too many people planning to get married, and raise families, and they haven't even left their parent's home yet. Which means they have not yet even tried to manage a house (or apartment) on their own, and all of the responsibilities that go with it. That can be hard enough on it's own when you set out. Anyway, back to the point of the 16 year old girl...yes, I agree that she should be in charge of whether or not she gets pregnant. That's not to say that she is solely responsible for contraception...but she should be ensuring her partner is mature enough to take responsibility for that as well. If someone is pressuring you in any way, at any time, to have a child, and you're not comfortable with it, then for God's sake tell them, and ask to sit down and discuss it. If they're not willing to do that...walk away. All I can say is...if you're going to have sex with someone at a young age...then make sure you both fully understand what you are doing, and the consequences if your contraceptive measures fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Well said Stormhammer. While the age of puberty is decreasing with time, I'll say any day that you do need a certain amount of experience before you go off impregnating or marrying someone. It doesn't matter if you're physically capable of having babies if you're not mentally ready for it yet. Just to clarify: While I do not view life as holy, I'm very much against killing or harming any one - I won't even go as far as swatting mosquitoes if that makes you feel more comfortable. Life is to be respected and revered, I just don't agree with it being a religious matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Do any of you know how the way they kill babys? Here. Ones in bold are how far into the carrage. Ones in Italic are the methods. -- 1-2 months(Only the brain and and a few vital organs. The baby does have nerves after 6 weeks.) Suction Method A vacume tube is put into the mother's womb. The force created by the suction tears the baby into pieces and sucks it into a jar. D & C(Dilation & Curettage) This is where they take a circular knife and cut the baby into pieces and they drain them through the birth cannal. -- 3-5 months(All systems are there.) D & E (dialation & evaculation) A pair of forceps are out in the womb to cut the baby to pieces and then pull the pieces out. The piece are put together again to make sure everything is out. -- 5-6 months Salt poisoning Salt is put into the womb to choke the baby, put it into shock, destroy the baby's skin, and some other details. -- 7-9 months(The time where a baby is just getting to full size. The baby can live out side of the mother. 10,000 - 15,000 of these happen a year in the U.S.) Hysterotomy Abortions The baby is removed like a C section, but is laid aside on a table to die. Parcial Birth Abortion Just like normal birth, but when the baby starts to come out they stab it and suck out the brain. Now you tell me if this cruel or not. Is that quick and painless? There have been times the baby crys during some of these. Mostly the later abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mswanmmiv Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider Well a news flash. That is not what sex is for. What?! I know you are a Christian, WhiteRaider. Have you never read the Bible?! In Song of Solomon... well... have you read it? Go read now! The whole thing is about sex. And it's in the Bible. Why would God have made it feel so good, if it was not for ( in some part ) pleasure!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 I think what a women decides to do with her body (including the baby, which is part of her body until birth) is her own business. When all these pro-lifers say that they will adopt the babies that will otherwise be aborted, I'll sing a different tune. I don't see any Christian pro-lifers lining up to adopt HIV or drug-addicted babies that would've been aborted. They don't want to help, they just don't want the babies to die. And 3rd trimester (7-9 months) abortions are TOTALLY illegal in the USA, so I'm not sure where you got that 10-15,000 number, WhiteRaider. If they do happen, they're illegal and the offenders would be prosecuted just like any other crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Originally posted by mswanmmiv What?! I know you are a Christian, WhiteRaider. Have you never read the Bible?! In Song of Solomon... well... have you read it? Go read now! The whole thing is about sex. And it's in the Bible. Why would God have made it feel so good, if it was not for ( in some part ) pleasure!? I know. What I mean is that it is not only for pleasure. I believe that he made it feel good so we would not be afraid to have it. But it is not made for pleasure. And dispite what people have it for it is ment for reproducing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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