C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Wow.... this has sure gotten a lot of responses over night Imagine if our universe was constantly expanding and contracting itself, to start again with a new big bang - there'd be no need for a God to have created it all. Or maybe, two universes pushing and pulling at each other with each collision resulting in a new big bang, that sends the two universes flying away from each other again. If God could always have existed, then the universe could also always have existed. Asking us to explain from where the universe came from, is like me asking you to explain where God came from. The difference between the two groups is that while we are constantly searching for an answer, you trust in your faith alone. Redwing, you are saying that God just sparked the universe for some reason. Why? Did he want to create man? How do you define man, if the species are constantly evolving? Why did he create man, if he knew that the planet they live on is going to die because the sun explodes in a few billion years? What makes man so much over and above other species if we were evolved from them? Where is the defining line between "man" and "ape"? What makes your religion so much more true than, say, islam, taoism, ancient greek religion or even the shamanistic religions? What is to convince you that the Bible is more true than the Koran? Why do we need God if he was just the one that started it all and then decided to take a long break from it all - if we remove God from the equation in every creationist theory, then we'll just end up with a system that can just as well work and thrive without him. You're all saying that it's impossible that life could have evolved from no where. GonkH8er presented a theory in which the chance is there - granted, it's small, very very very small, but it's there. And if you factor in 4 billion years, then it could easily happen. However small a chance is, as long as it's there it will happen, given enough time. And life have had more than enough time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Just got home from a date. Glad theres not heaps of posts to rifle through. Just thought I'd add something before I head off to bed. Redwing, just a question. Do you take the genesis creation word for word, as what actually happened. This on day 1. This on day 2. etc... That's the type of creationist I'm talking about. Those who deny any scientific involvement in creation. Personally, I believe there's only 1 way to prove or disprove the existance of a god, and that way is for the god to reveal himself. Don't get all weird on me and go "But look around. He has revealed himself in everything. Marvel at his glory" I mean actually REVEAL himself in a sense where we dont have to look into things. A physical sense where even those who are nto as clued on as others could see. Other than that, we've got an ant's scrots chance of proving something either way. So, it's either gonna be up to him, or we sit here arguing for the rest of our lives about it, each content in the fact that we think what we believe is truth. Personally, I hope we're all wrong. I don't want some people rubbing it in everyones face. I know my view on life is bleak and cold, and I hope its not the truth, but I honestly cannot believe that there's anymore to it. What is, is, in my opinion. *raises glass* Here's hoping that it's not meaningless chance, but until I find somethign better, meaningless chance will do me just fine. Goodnight all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff38 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 CJAIS I love you. I have done it all, I was raises by devout christians so thats all I knew for many years. Eventually I discovered "Master Darwin" and many others who show more likely ways we could come into existance. Remember good science does not deny the existance of a god. (THE ABSCENCE OF EVIDENCE, IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSCENCE) translated into redneck: (JUS CUZ YA CANT SEE IT DONT MEAN IT AINT THAR) So I am in the Darwin camp, with respect to those who are still motivated by fear and worship a religion. MORE TO COME............................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Creationists, I'd like to hear your version of history/reality instead of just bashing ours. If you're saying (as gonkH8 hinted at) that the world is only, say, 4000 years old, that adam and eve were the first humans etc - then I will argue against that. However, if you're saying that evolution is a fact, and that God just sparked the big bang and then let everything develop from there, I'm partly with you. No, I can't disprove that God does not exist if we're working from that standpoint - after all, he could have made the big bang (or whatever started it all). Then the only difference that seperates scientists and creationists is that scientists does not stop at some point during their research on the origin of the universe and say: "Well, I don't really need to research further, because I know God made it like that, and I'll settle for that explanation." If God created the earth, why did he create lifeless gas giants such as Jupiter as well? Redwing: Yes, God could have made it all - we do not know yet, because there have been no proof yet. All that creationists really do is go back one step from the genereally accepted theory, and then explain that with God. EG, people once believed that the earth was flat, when it was disproved they said that, "Ok, the earth isn't flat but God still made it round". When the big bang theory became accepted they took a step back and said "Ok, it all started from the big bang, but God started the big bang!". You're saying that everything was put in place by the same designer and then everything was just allowed to evolve and adapt as they saw fit - God retired, you could say. Not to mention that this would be utterly pointless, this theory does agree with the fact that humans evovled from apes. Evolution is a fact: Look at bacteria, humans and other creatures. God may or may not exist, but so far - no evidence. When science one day does prove that the earth is billions of years old (which I think will happen), are you then going to adapt your religion to that? When science proves that there have never been any sort of firmament, are you then going to agree? When science proves that there have been life on other planets, are you then going to realize? I'm saying "science" here, because creationists obviously don't have the motivation to search for those things. If science as we know it wasn't invented in 19 century, we wouldn't have electricity, cars or space shuttles. Griff - You hit the nail on the head with that sentence (not the redneck one )... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Karl Marx had some really good points about religion. I guess I am 15 percent Darwinist, 15 percent Marxist, and 70 percent me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 The funny thing about evolutionists is that they cant make up thier minds about how old earth is... onesays "4000000000 Mllion" the other "904392390 Trillion and so on a so forth... Creationists dont care how *old* the earth is but how it got here... well at least i dont. If God is GOD does he need science to prove it? Gonk8... I'm a Christian and a Creationist, Although i know Christians who believe in Evolution... its all a matter of opinion Redwing, Good say... I Agree with alot of what you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by ZDawg If God is GOD does he need science to prove it? If God is GOD, what is GOD? Sorry, couldn't resist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divine Spirit Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by cjais If God is GOD, what is GOD? Sorry, couldn't resist... DOG backwards Sorry, couldn't resist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-GONE Jinn Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Yes, God could have made it all - we do not know yet, because there have been no proof yet. All that creationists really do is go back one step from the genereally accepted theory, and then explain that with God. EG, people once believed that the earth was flat, when it was disproved they said that, "Ok, the earth isn't flat but God still made it round". When the big bang theory became accepted they took a step back and said "Ok, it all started from the big bang, but God started the big bang!". Is this some sort of accusation? You guys do exactly the same thing! When one of your theories gets evidence against it, all you do is twist this evidence around, so that it fits the image you're trying to create. What you must understand, is that the Bible was created a long time ago, and made to be understood by kinda ignorant people. It is not a book to be taken literally, and I think we all understand that the world isn't 4000 years old. The Bible, when written, was constructed so that it could be understood by the "contemporaries" at that time. You must take height for that when you read the Bible in our time, and not take everything literary. The genesis is a comparison, kinda, a simplification of reality so that the contemporaries could understand. Don't ditch religion just because "science" tells you that everything that's in the religion can't be true. The Bible talks in images, and it does require some intelligence to look beyond that. I find you narrowminded, Cjais... How will your precious science prove the lack of firmament? You can't talk about adapting our religion, because you have to see the 2000 yeras old writings in context with your own reality. Don't you realize? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Qui-GONE Jinn Is this some sort of accusation? You guys do exactly the same thing! When one of your theories gets evidence against it, all you do is twist this evidence around, so that it fits the image you're trying to create. What you must understand, is that the Bible was created a long time ago, and made to be understood by kinda ignorant people. It is not a book to be taken literally, and I think we all understand that the world isn't 4000 years old. The Bible, when written, was constructed so that it could be understood by the "contemporaries" at that time. You must take height for that when you read the Bible in our time, and not take everything literary. The genesis is a comparison, kinda, a simplification of reality so that the contemporaries could understand. Don't ditch religion just because "science" tells you that everything that's in the religion can't be true. The Bible talks in images, and it does require some intelligence to look beyond that. I find you narrowminded, Cjais... How will your precious science prove the lack of firmament? You can't talk about adapting our religion, because you have to see the 2000 yeras old writings in context with your own reality. Don't you realize? Ok, we all agree that the bible is not to be taken literally, or do we - Redwing seems to be hinting at the opposite. It's version of reality and history is complete gibberish, is that it? Yes, science twists it's own ideas and make new ones because that is the heart of science - there are no truths. I don't quite understand your point of view: You seem to think that no matter how deep we look, no matter far back in time we go, no matter what science discovers - God is always there. But why? Why can't we just remove some higher power from the equation and still achieve the same result? You seem to believe in evolution, scientific theories and the whole package Qui, why do you need to believe in God? Firmament, I can only say I'm a firm believer in that there's still water in the atmosphere. Narrowminded yes - but even though I have the imagination to make God real, I do not - why should I do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arreat Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 well... since im catholic im leaning more towards my catholic faith other than some scientific theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-GONE Jinn Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 It's version of reality and history is complete gibberish, is that it? No, but when it says that the universe was created in six days, you shouldn't take it literary. I'd expect more from you, Cjais, surely you understand! You seem to believe in evolution, scientific theories and the whole package Qui, why do you need to believe in God? Because I do believe in God, and science isn't enough for me. When I look at the sky full of stars, and see the marvels of the universe, I can't believe that all happens by chance, and that we are worthless. I believe that God is the designer behind all this, and that he loves his creation. My point of view. I do believe science as well, you know. I do believe that the world is round, and that the moon isn't a green cheese, so to speak. That's because I believe that science confirms the excistence of god, and that there is really an existence for us after death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Qui-GONE Jinn No, but when it says that the universe was created in six days, you shouldn't take it literary. I'd expect more from you, Cjais, surely you understand! Yes, Qui, I understand. And sorry for talking that way about the Bible - low, yes. However, when I gaze at the stars, marvel at the complexity of the world and stand in righteous awe of nature, I do not feel alone - I feel as a part of it. I am my own universe you could say, and the wonder of it is beautiful. When everything has no beginning and no end, when everything works together as it does - that is when my God shows itself. An existence after death? Maybe - but simply knowing that I played a role in this universal theater is enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 about the time thingy.... Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." there, that disproves that time existed before God. but of course you could say it's in revelations, therefore it's not to be taken literally,etc, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 I still want to know why your christian god is the one god instead of the norse,greek,egyptian,isreal,jewish,and sumerian god(s). Their stone tablets and stuff has as much proof as your book. (Gonk H8ter dragged me back in:p) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 ROFLMAO!!!!!! Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me." God himself wrote that it on stone tablets, also called teh 10 Commandments. eugh, read the Bible or go to sunday school. you poor person, you. at LEAST read Genesis and Exodus at http://www.bible.com it's more than worth your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Rogue15, why do you put your trust into a book you have not written yourself? Wisdom is to be found within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Rogue15 Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me." That doesnt solve a thing. It still is just a sentence in the book,but you only it is right because you proboly are too close-minded to think that it *gasp* could be wrong.... I could make a book,and say that a true but really fictionous god says"you shall not worship any other gods". Does that mean that that god is the true and one god? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 I'm not losing anything by believing it, am I? And just cause I believe most of what the Bible says, does not make me close-minded to everything, it makes me more focused on the God who created you, me, everything and everybody. There's ALOT of wisdom in the Bible, read the book of Proverbs, the best book in the entire Bible, IMO, and a great source of wisdom lies there. The least I can say about this thread is that it has made me think more about how great God is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Rogue15 I'm not losing anything by believing it, am I? And just cause I believe most of what the Bible says, does not make me close-minded to everything, it makes me more focused on the God who created you, me, everything and everybody. There's ALOT of wisdom in the Bible, read the book of Proverbs, the best book in the entire Bible, IMO, and a great source of wisdom lies there. The least I can say about this thread is that it has made me think more about how great God is. Rogue, why did God create man? Was he not pleased with himself? Can God not fail? Can God make a stone that he cannot lift? I've always wondered about those questions really... curiously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by cjais Rogue, why did God create man? Was he not pleased with himself? Can God not fail? Can God make a stone that he cannot lift? I've always wondered about those questions really... curiously. pretty tough question, that first one...anyways this is what the Bible says about it: ." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day. Maybe God wanted something to please/worship/praise Him? I don't know the answers, the Bible does give some hints to possible answers to questions we have. I'm not saying to take everything the Bible says as an answer, just a possible answer, and maybe an answer that only applies to you. That's what makes the Bible so fun to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Uh...*sigh* I didn't read but a few posts but... These debates always seem to go to the same direction. --> The "Darwinists" give dozens of RATIONAL reasons why Creationism is total BS. Then the Creationists go: "Yea, well, how do you explain that, like...when stars explode and, umm..that the universe expanding and the black holes and...umm.. how did life start in the first place huh?! And how come some people are lefties? Explain that!" Darwinist: "Well, gee, I don't really know.." Creationist: HA! GOTCHA! I WIN! You can't explain everything so that proves me right! God created Eve from Adam's rib! Btw - since Adam and Eve were the first two people, doesn't that mean that they had to resort to incest in order to keep the human race going? I guess the Bible says incest is a-okay, then...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 "Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people." "The criticism of religion disillusions man to make him think and act and shape his reality like a man who has been disillusioned and has come to reason, so that he will revolve round himself and therefore round his true sun. Religion is only the illusory sun which revolves around man as long as he does nor revolve around himself." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Well said Luc... Don't force me to use this against you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pisces Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Okay, this may have already been asked but I am through no means looking back through the full thread. This question I ask is a legitimate question not meant to put down the beliefs of anyone: If Darwinism is the study of how all life evolved from simpler organisms, then how did the first, single-celled, organism ever come into existence? I'm told we evolved from apes and birds evolved from dinosaurs and such, but how did the first organism ever come around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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