Sherack Nhar Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 I'd just like to apologize, as a french-canadian from Québec, for the recent astoundingly stupid and immoral actions of Clonaids and its affiliated sect, the raelians (that sect is based in Québec). So, I'm really sorry that such an awful thing (the sect itself) was spawned in Québec and that it caused a worldwide ethical conflict through the RUMORED cloning of a real human. On behalf of Québec, I apologize and remind you that there are still good things coming from this humble little province Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_dog no.3 Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 I don't see anything wrong with cloning, with the exception of "The Sixth Day" type scenarios . It could actaully be useful in saving endangered species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMuffin Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 I live in Quebec too (even if I'm born in the States, but thats another story...), but I didn't know the sect was based here. I thought it was in France:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherack Nhar Posted January 5, 2003 Author Share Posted January 5, 2003 Rael himself is from France, but his sect was founded in Québec. And CC, I still think reproductive cloning is immoral. Think about Eve, the girl that is supposedly cloned. Right from her birth, she has been denied a normal life simply because of the way she was created. The entire world will follow her progress; she's already doomed. And what if something wrong happens? I heard that Dolly, the cloned sheep, aged significantly faster than other sheeps (although I can't confirm that yet). Everybody should have the chance to live a normal life, but Eve doesn't. Therapeutical cloning, on the other hand, is a benefit. That is when they use genetical engineering to reproduce certain body tissues, in order to transplant them into sick people. That can save lives, instead of creating a new one that is ruined from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artoo Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Hear! Hear! Cloning is something that can be of great ues, just not for humans. Genetic manipulation and cloning of livestock and crops can increase food output, and cloning can help save endangered species also. But as Sherack stated the cloning of humans is just morally wrong, it's akin to submitting humans to various chemical agents to see how they react, without their consent. Very morally wrong and cruel. However even with stem-cell research there is controversy. Stem cells harvested from developing human fetuses are those which lead to the greatest replication of tissues, yet as we all know developing fetuses can become humans, so is this murder, is the debate. Some progress has been made using stem cells harvested from adults from various tissues, and from some animals I've heard, but they are just a fraction as effective as stem cells from fetuses are. So what's your stance on all this? (Yay a good debate to start!) Oh, and apology accepted (even though there is no need for one from you) Sherack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_dog no.3 Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 Ok I see ur point Sherack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEDI_MASTA Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 the Realiens are a sex cult that believes in group mariage (they also believe they are coned aliens)... Wackos... no need for apology sherack... the kid isnt even cloned, they wont do a DNA test Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clefo Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 That still doesn't make up for the fact that Canadians students have to suffer through French even though ONE province just HAS to speak French (I don't know if this is a real plight or not) My stance on these things: Stem Cells: Yes, Cloning: No I will, personally, never take a "Pro-Life" person seriously unless they are, well, Pro-Life (Don't understand what I'm saying? good) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Homer Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I share your pain...I too went through French...but that was my own stupidity...and once I had 1 class, I had to have a second and it was better than starting over... Also, since you're appologizing for stupid Canadiens, I'd like to take this opportunity to appologize for all the stupid Americans...I cannot post their names here because I'd crash the server a third of the way through the list, maybe less... I will give a few: Jerry Springer, Howard Stern, Jerry Falwell, and Chase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clefo Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I actually don't know a word of French I just once overheard some other province Canadians once complaining about having to learn French Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Rommel Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Originally posted by Clefo I actually don't know a word of French I just once overheard some other province Canadians once complaining about having to learn French French is mandatory from Grade 4 to Grade 6 (in Alberta)... atleast it used to be... my little sisters haven't started yet. I took it for 4 years... and none of it has really stuck. I can READ french fairly well... but I can only speak a few phrases. I'm never going to the East, anyways...and no one speaks it in the West, so it was all fairly useless. I wonder how much the government wasted on my french education... About the cloning thing... as the (modern) world gets older and older... well, we're eventually going to stop replacing ourselves... it's already a huge problem in Europe, since a whole generation was wiped out by WW2. So maybe cloning isn't so wrong... the way I see it... it's going to be essential someday. Senior citizens are a tremendous strain on (canada's) a country's economy. And unless something happens, and we're all going to be seniors in a couple hundred years. Who will work then? But really... I know nothing. I must be an idiot... because, assuming there's no serious side effects to cloning... I don't see a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I know what ya mean, Rommel. I actually did an entire report once on why cloning isn't fundamentally wrong or scintifically impossible. I just really don't feel like getting into a debate right now. Of course, nearly anything in the hands of the wrong people can be used for evil. If cloning is used correctly, i don't see why it cant be perfectly normal. I mean, scientifically speaking the person shouldn't be any more suseptable to disease or anything than the donor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthfergie Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I think cloning can be a good thing in certain cases (like the endagered species scen), but for humans...it just seems kinda bad...humans are already overpopulating many areas of the world and with the long life span have generated so much growth in the last few years that nearly all of the earth is populated...just wait a few more years and we'll start moving people to Antartica to live underground because we're running out of room...(admitedly in the US we have it good with loads of space...*thinks about all the foresting in Arky*)...at least China will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 No need to apologize for stupid people. Every country has its idiots and by no means should a country be judged solely by its idiots alone. You know I do not know much about this cult but does anyone know about it? They had a small section about it on the CNN website...something about them believing we are all created from aliens. I don't know anything about this whole marriage thing or anything. To get into a debate about clones would be ...ah yucky. I tried on the swamp and so many are of mixed opinions. I feel that these people did not create a clone...it sounds too....um well there is a Lifetime Movie Channel movie...that well...has the same FLIPPIN PLOT. I don't believe these people and I think it is a publicity stunt. No I'm not saying that because I'm in denial or think that it cannot be done. But to give no evidence...to say...we aren't doing any testing....all we have is that the grandma stated "she looks just like her mother" I mean...really. If they were really in this for the humanity of it...or whatever they wouldn't have said a FRIGGIN THING and that's why I don't trust them...just look at their spokeswoman.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherack Nhar Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 Well you shouldn't judge people by their appearance. But I agree, I think this is simply a publicity stunt. On an MSNBC article they said that it took over 200 tries to get to clone Dolly correctly. How could they achieve human cloning in one try? And repeat the feat one more time in a row? It does seem fishy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Well, it makes sense that it would have taken them a ton of tries to get dolly right, because they had never done it before. But now, after several years of research and testing, they've probably got the system down alot better than they did. As for it being a publicity stunt, why? Why do it now, when they are a ton of other things going on? Why not just say you didn't it earlier when the public eye was focused on the cloning issue? Or why not wait until after everything with the war has clamed down? It just doesn't make sense for it to be a publicity stunt, though it is possible. I also don't see what they stand to gain out of it right now. It's not like anyone is lauding them for their work, i only see skepticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherack Nhar Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 http://www.msnbc.com/news/852275.asp?vts=122820021540 Found it. Look at the comments made by unaffiliated scientists. They say that even today, it's VERY unlikely that they got it right on their first try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc Stryphe Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 As far as it being a publicity stunt... Had you or I heard of the Raelian Sect (Religion or Belief) before the announcement of the "Cloned" baby Eve's birth? I'm guessing probably not. A sect that was previously unkown or unnoticed at best, is now in the center of the limelight, and in a much better position to recruit, find new members etc. Think of it as a commercial, but they didn't have to pay for it, the media did all the legwork for them. Even if the majority of "professional" views are that of skepticism, there are many who will now donate to the Raelians Sect to help further their Cloning cause, or will now look up this sect on the web. Because, as we all know, there are many out there who would subscripe to any "religion" or "organization" that publicly believe in Extra-terrestial beings and there having direct involvment with humans and our very existence. I think it was a brilliant ploy by the Raelians and expertly played out by them, and incidentally, I believe the media will have alot of explaining to do, when it is all proven to be a publicity stunt/scam/hoax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I read the whole thing and i didn't see anything about them getting it on the first try, or about them saying it is so unlikely. It only said that it sometimes required luck, and maybe they were lucky. Thats hardly evidence thats it's fake. It did say, however, that Cloneaid has agreed to let independent panels of scientists test it, and that it would be hard to hoax all the teams. BTW, you never answered any of my questions. Why would they want to make some publicity stunt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc Stryphe Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy BTW, you never answered any of my questions. Why would they want to make some publicity stunt? Look above your post, I gave one reason as to why. There are probably more... Now, let me say this to your "maybe" they were lucky... There was already a second "clone" birth, and there are still three more on the way. Not just once did they get lucky, but 5 times? Maybe I should have them pick out my Powereball number next week! By the way, Tie. I'm just playing Devil's advocate right now. None of us know what really happened yet. it's just fun to debate, especially with one such as yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherack Nhar Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 Sure, it's not evidence that the claim is false, but there's no evidence that it's true either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe Look above your post, I gave one reason as to why. There are probably more... Now, let me say this to your "maybe" they were lucky... There was already a second "clone" birth, and there are still three more on the way. Not just once did they get lucky, but 5 times? Maybe I should have them pick out my Powereball number next week! By the way, Tie. I'm just playing Devil's advocate right now. None of us know what really happened yet. it's just fun to debate, especially with one such as yourself. Your post wasn't there when i started tying Havoc, but i'll adress the issues anyways. I still don't think they have anything to gain. Sure they are in the limelight with the media, but the media is alsways trashing them about how it can't be real or how they believe in aliens or whatever. Maybe they did do it just to get attention, but if they did then i highly doubt this is the kind of attention they were looking for. All i'm really saying is that maybe they didn't do, but you can't rule out automatically that they didn't. I really don't think its fair to say they didn't when you don't have any proof otherwise. Why not trust them until proven one way or the other? Especially when they don't have any really good reason, IMO, to lie. And of course it's fun to debate with me! I'm a Southern Conservative on a board full of Yankee Liberals. j/k (i apologize to anyone who was insulted by me calling them a Liberal, i know i sure would be. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragon_Leon Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 you do credit to Canadians, Sherack... now let me divulge into the humor of all this... a Star Wars forum-member apologizing about cloning... Canadians...Kaminoans.... am i the only one reading a conspiracy here ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 as long as this "Eve" doesn't resemble Jango Fett I'm not worried just yet... I agree with Havoc on this is a stunt to get there name out there. Why wait till now to do it?? Why did the terrorists choose 9/11, why do people choose dates anyways to do this kind of stuff?? Maybe its some special Ralaegn Holiday or something. Maybe cuz its the start of the new year 2003? Why would they do this? $$$$$$$$$$ cha ching. To get noticed. And tomorrow they could all just board themselves up in some shack and drink poison because the big clone spaceship is going to take them away. I think these people are NUTZ and that's why they are doing it. They have been brainwashed! Cults freak me out. Sorry butt they do. I do not doubt that someone could create a clone human - but I do doubt it when there is no solid proof. If they really did this for their "cause" or to help someone they shouldn't have made it public. They did that for a reason and it certainly wasn't in the best interest of the supposed clone baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Clefo I will, personally, never take a "Pro-Life" person seriously unless they are, well, Pro-Life (Don't understand what I'm saying? good) "Pro-life" cannot exist. There is only Anti-choice. You can't kill a foetus anymore than you can kill bacteria by showering. It only shows you put human life on a piedestal above everything else. The foetus is not an individual in any way. It is not human. But life? Yeah, sure, if that makes you feel "pro-life"... No where did they state how many tries they had to go through before their cloning attempt succeeded, AFAIK. STTCT, I'm sorry if you found my opinions "mixed" (if you referred to me anyway). My opinion is very solid on this matter: Therapeutic cloning: Yes. Save lives. I'm for it. Reproductive cloning: No point really, unless to save endangered species. Then again, there'd be no need to save those species unless they contributed to the environment in a vital way. The technology certainly has no place amongst humans - we're already too many. Adopt a child instead. To those whose morals stand in the way of scientific development: Get the hell out of the way. I'm fine with you stopping it's use after it's been developed. But trying to stop science itself will only take us back to the dark ages. We really could use you guys in the swamp (wink-wink ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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