Gameplay Suggestions

[Jeff 42]

Originally posted by twl.Sphinx

Removing strafe jumping from the game would be a big mistake. It requires skill to learn how to do it, and it does indeed, as contender mentioned, separate n00bs from vets. It is also quite possible to catch up to somebody esle who is also strafe jumping, because not everyone's strafing skills are equal. I've done that many times myself. Besides, strafing is plain FUN to do! So what if it originated as a rounding error in the quake engine's physics. It doesn't make any damn difference whether it looks "realistic" or not. Half the things you see in JK2 aren't "realistic". This is a sci-fi game. I guarantee that 90% of you who sit around and think strafing is "stupid" for one reason or another, are probably just not very good at it, or just don't want to learn how to do it. It's too fun to do once you know how to do it for you to willfully want it taken out.

I agree 100%. Strafe jumping = FUN! Thus it should stay, "realism" be damned.

[Taos]

There is a thread stickied at the top of the page called 'Gameplay Suggestions' and that is where this is going.

[Agen]

I honestly didn't like promod, all you have to do is is charge with heavy stance several tiems and they'll die.

JK2's ordinary sabers were well better imo.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by Zodiac

2 Solo:

Force speed costs mana, and strafe jumping doesn't. So you can't be speedy all the time with force speed, while you can be that speedy if you'd do the cost-free strafe jumping.

Most players consider the speed you get with strafe jumping as the normal movement speed, with force_speed giving a little extra boost to that. I was thinking of an alternative for strafe jumping that would maintain the strafe jumping movement speed that everyone considered to be normal. But overall I think I agree with you.

 

Ok, then I could see a simple across-the-board speed boost, say, by about 25% (I dunno, just a random # there). I think that'd accomplish exactly what folks really want, which is to simply make the game faster. I have no problem with making the overall speed of teh game somewhat faster, I just don't want it to be as fast as, say, Quake3. Then again, maybe my gripe is more with the game mode that you're given in Quake3 -- namely DM. I find DM style game modes to be intensely BORING. I like doing something more than just randomly fragging anything that moves. That's why I like the team games and especially those based around accomplishing a goal.

 

Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt

Class based system. Bleh.

 

JK1 has no class based system, JK1 is alive.

 

MotS has a class based system and it's dead.

 

Raven compared the activity of JK1 with MotS and saw that a class base system just didn't work. They won't do it, and for good reason. It wouldn't work at all for competative play.

 

Ok, so you don't like it. That's no reason not to include it as ANOTHER gameplay mode. No one's trying to take away the gameplay modes that you happen to like. I'll admit that the MOTS class system sucked. I do think that there are much better ways to do it. I hate to say it, but as much fun as JK1 was, there was a whole lot to be desired. Again, I always felt like it was all just a DM fest. Fun for a while, but got old fast. I definitely think that the powers, guns, etc. were well balanced, though, and fun. In that sense, I'm all for emulating JK1. I don't want just a rehash of that game, though, only with newer graphics. I don't think we're going to get that, either. As for whether class based games work for competition, at this point, all that's left of the RTCW community that I can tell IS competitive gamers. Likewise, TF and similar games seem to do quite well and they're all class based. Just because the MOTS system sucked doesn't mean that a class based game is necessarily doomed for competitive play. Moreover, while Raven shouldn't ignore the competitive gamers, they should also not bow to their every whim (nor do I think that they will).[/b]

 

Originally posted by twl.Sphinx

Removing strafe jumping from the game would be a big mistake. It requires skill to learn how to do it, and it does indeed, as contender mentioned, separate n00bs from vets. It is also quite possible to catch up to somebody esle who is also strafe jumping, because not everyone's strafing skills are equal. I've done that many times myself. Besides, strafing is plain FUN to do! So what if it originated as a rounding error in the quake engine's physics. It doesn't make any damn difference whether it looks "realistic" or not. Half the things you see in JK2 aren't "realistic". This is a sci-fi game. I guarantee that 90% of you who sit around and think strafing is "stupid" for one reason or another, are probably just not very good at it, or just don't want to learn how to do it. It's too fun to do once you know how to do it for you to willfully want it taken out.

 

The competitive community is not out to add 100% more speed and ammo to the game, and we do not wish to take aspects away from the game from people who prefer saber combat. The whole purpose of this thread, is not to get into some BS arguement of "saber vs gun", but it is to remind Raven that there are alot of us who like the guns aspect of the game, and we'd like them to take note of that, and not butcher our aspect of the game in thier process of adding more stuff for saber combat. Following that line of reasoning, we have put forth many suggestions we feel would improve the multiplayer FF guns (all weapons) aspect of the game, which is what we prefer.

 

Do not post in response to what we are saying to try to say we are "against all sabers" and "we think all people who like sabers are just n00bs and shouldn't be listened to." You are hijacking this thread and turning it away from its constructive purpose in doing so. Stop trying to make this an arguement of "sabers vs gunners". That is not conducive to the benefit of all here, and you need to knock it off.

-Sphinx

 

1.) Removing strafe jump would not be a big mistake, it would be a big fix to a big bug. There is simply no reason why it should be in there and just because people have gotten used to using that particular EXPLOIT (and let's face it, that's all it is) is no reason to include it. If it's a bug, squish it. It's not just a question of whether it's realistic either. It makes the game materially less fun for a lot of us. I get really annoyed when I see people bunny hopping in games. They look like idiots, and they basically ruin the feel and immersion factor of the game.

 

I play this game because I want to play an FPS IN the Star Wars environment. If all I want is bunny hopping with explosive shooting guns, I'll go play Quake. And, to head off the obvious criticism, not everyone who wants to have some semblance of a Star Wars experience is looking for an RPG experience. I don't want to stand around bowing, kissing, sitting, hugging, dancing, etc. I want to get out there and frag people, maybe cap a flag or two (or Death Star plans or whatever), etc. But I want to do that in an environment that really evokes the Star Wars films. Why the hell else would anyone buy this game? Seeing bunny hoppers going crazy ruins that feel for me, and for others as well. That's why I think it should be removed. It's an exploit and maybe it takes skill to learn how to do it, but it's an exploit nonetheless.

 

People who want speed in their game should check out other games out there. Compare RTCW to BF1942. In BF1942, you're definitely moving slowly, unless you're in a vehicle. RTCW, on the other hand, lets you move considerably faster, and is INCREDIBLY fast paced and action packed. If it was possible to do, code-wise, I'd say get rid of the strafe jumping/bunny hopping, and simply make the game have the feeling of speed overall. If you want to catch the guy running away from you, you can still use skill: the skills of your mind and your knowledge of the map, your weapons, and your force powers. There are plenty of ways to catch people, if you play SMART. There's no need to glitch/cheat/use exploits to do it.

 

2.) I don't think anyone here's been asking to cut out guns altogether either. But you can't deny that when your game is called "Jedi Academy" and it focuses on learning the ways of the force, guns are gonna take a back seat, at least as far as SP goes. Now, for MP, I expect they'll include them, and rightly so. Guns are a hell of a lot of fun when they're implemented well, and add a lot to the game. All I've been saying is don't be surprised if the guns aren't implemented the way you want. I'd love to see powerful, FUN guns that evoke the Star Wars universe, are well balanced, require skill and intelligence to use, etc. I also think it'd be a real shame to limit this game to ONLY sabres and force powers, but I won't be surprised if Raven doesn't emphasize guns that much, and chooses to focus on the sabre/force stuff instead.

 

3.) While I don't necessarily agree with the methods used ("Everyone who likes guns hates sabres, etc."), simply offering an opposing viewpoint or pointing out flaws in your argument is not hijacking the thread. Hijacking the thread would be discussing, say, why ledge hanging should or should not be included. Debating the pros and cons of the various arguments in here is absolutely worthwhile, because it helps lend legitimacy to your position. If one can't defend why feature X should be included/excluded, then perhaps that person needs to rethink their position. Besides, someone who's against one feature might offer a differing opinion that the original poster ends up agreeing with. That said, I don't want my comments misinterpreted as advocation for a big tangent on ledge hanging.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Ok, lets get a few things straight...

 

1) The competitive community does NOT hate pull/push, they hate how easy it is to use it on its own and play a dominant role in a game. FORCE PULL IS TOO EASY. (see my possible solution: http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~csuccf/pullpush/pull.htm )

 

2) The competitive community does NOT hate sabers, they hate how useless they are in JK2, they also hate how people who use nothing but sabers are NON-STOP accusing gunners of being talentless morons. The anti-saberist flaming on TWL only became predominant after the preferred gameplay style of the competitive community was constantly whined about on these forums.

 

3) YES, strafe-jumping/bunny-hopping does look stupid, but it is the only existing method to give more experienced players an advantage in terms of movement. Come up with a proper alternative and the competitive community will probably end up accepting it.

 

4) There were many elements which were fundamental to the success of JK1 multiplayer, only one of these (force jump) had a reasonable transition to JK2. Force Pull is a perfect example of a feature which got messed up in the transition.

 

5) Force Speed and Jump ARE too slow, play JK1 for five minutes and you'll notice how fast you move with speed or when jumping compared to normal movement, also take a look at Empire Strikes Back... Luke is literally a blur when he jumps out of the carbon pit.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Ok, lets get a few things straight...

 

1) The competitive community does NOT hate pull/push, they hate how easy it is to use it on its own and play a dominant role in a game. FORCE PULL IS TOO EASY. (see my possible solution: http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~csuccf/pullpush/pull.htm )

 

2) The competitive community does NOT hate sabers, they hate how useless they are in JK2, they also hate how people who use nothing but sabers are NON-STOP accusing gunners of being talentless morons. The anti-saberist flaming on TWL only became predominant after the preferred gameplay style of the competitive community was constantly whined about on these forums.

 

3) YES, strafe-jumping/bunny-hopping does look stupid, but it is the only existing method to give more experienced players an advantage in terms of movement. Come up with a proper alternative and the competitive community will probably end up accepting it.

 

4) There were many elements which were fundamental to the success of JK1 multiplayer, only one of these (force jump) had a reasonable transition to JK2. Force Pull is a perfect example of a feature which got messed up in the transition.

 

5) Force Speed and Jump ARE too slow, play JK1 for five minutes and you'll notice how fast you move with speed or when jumping compared to normal movement, also take a look at Empire Strikes Back... Luke is literally a blur when he jumps out of the carbon pit.

 

Personally, I'd love to see sabres be really frickin' lethal. I mean 1-2 hits and you're toast, regardless of what stance you use. I think you could bring in aspects of promod (IE: no random blocking, how you move affects how you hit, certain stances "trump" others) and it'd still be cool, but what would improve it and help avoid people just turning on rage+speed and using red stance to get a one-hit kill, would be to have ALL hits be kills (or near kills). This would also help avoid having people spam one move over and over because it's the quickest kill. When the moves are all equal in terms of the damage they deal out, and the only difference is how well they defend or pierce defenses, then you'll see some REAL skill.

 

I definitely agree (even though I'm not part of the competitive community) that push/pull needs a major revamping. As it was used in JO, it was just too easy to keep hitting push/pull and have it take people down, or at least stop 'em in their tracks. I'll admit, it's a lot of fun to knock people off of a ledge, and it's quite cool to be able to blow stormtroopers back into a wall. I still think that the powers can be included (IE: JK1's pull power was basically perfect as far as I'm concerned), but they need tweaking so as to avoid spammage.

 

As far as the strafe-jumping/bunny hopping issue goes, it sounds like you're looking for something to distinguish the skilled from the inexperienced. I'll agree that much of JO devolved into button mashing, and that it was quite easy for idiots to beat people who, by rights, SHOULD have been skilled. Being skilled, however, at least as far as I define it, does not mean that you know how to exploit bugs. I view that as only one step up from cheating. There are, however, ways to reward the skilled player who has devoted hours of play to learning mastery of particular weapons, powers, etc. If the sabre combat system I suggested were implemented, sabre battles would come down to who knew how to read their enemy better, when to use which moves better, and how fast their reactions were (assuming that lag and in-game engine limitations aren't a problem). Similar methods could come into play with guns. Instead of simply having the biggest, most powerful area-effect weapon be the king of the hill, other weapons could be used that, when wielded with skill, would prove equally deadly (if not more so). that'd be a question of weapon balance. As far as the force goes, it'll really depend on what force powers are included and how they're implemented. That one's so up in the air, that I don't know if there's a way (other than the obvious timing skills) of making the powers themselves inherently rewarding to experienced players.

 

As far as the speed thing goes, though, bunny hopping isn't necessary. Just make it so that the game plays faster overall. Not insanely fast, just somewhat faster. You should be a blur when you're running using speed or force jumping, but it shouldn't be a constant thing. (I got the sense that speed in JK1 was able to be used as a near-constant thing, which jibes with my memory of how other powers worked -- IE: the big protect shield.)

[MotS]

Just want to say something about Jedi Academy being slower than Quake3. Jedi Knight 1 is MUCH faster than Quake 3, much much faster. i am almost 100 % sure that you run over twice as fast in Jedi Knight than in Quake 3. i have tried playing Quake 3 at twice the normal speed, and i am pretty much convinced that Quake 3 at twice its usual speed isnt (nearly) as fast as Jedi Knight at its usual speed, if you keep force speed on all the time, which is possible (because force speed doesnt take much of the force) !

 

i really think fast games are more fun for most people, no matter if they are competitive or not, beginners or not. i think i am somewhere between those, but i have always liked speed in games. i just dont think its correct to say that Jedi Knight game shouldnt be as fast as Quake 3, because its Star Wars. its more like "Quake 3 shouldnt be as fast as Jedi Knight", because you could just as well say Jedi's must be able to run faster than normal humans in Quake 3 (hehe)

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

It is true that Bunny-Hopping is essentially a bug (nobody denies this), but its not one of those bugs were its a trick you learn which instantly gives you an advantage end of story..

 

I'll elaborate:

 

A beginner to bunny-hopping (much like I was about summer last year) knows essentially what they have to do, but they don't have the knack or "feel" which the technique relies on, they only move a little bit faster than regular movement

 

An intermediate bunny-hopper (what I am now I guess) has experience, they know what does what and can do regular bunny-hopping (which is sufficient to easily outpace a non-hopping player) flawlessly and with ease. They can use the technique when the situation demands it and with skill.

 

An expert bunny-hopper uses everything at their disposal to move fast, intricate and subtle movements of the mouse to add minor vector calculation advantages, fixing of their framerates to increase the rounding error on the speed calculations. They will also change from alternate to one-sided strafing when they need to, they will be able to turn sharp corners without a severe drop of momentum. They will crouch when approaching different height surfaces to prolong air-time in order to remove the loss of speed normally associated with changing ground height. They will also know the maps and physics of maps to astonishing accuracy so they can shave mere milliseconds off their cap-speeds in CTF.

 

So... yes Bunny-Hopping was originally a bug, an exploit. But unlike most bugs it doesn't yeild an immediate bonus, for many players bunny-hopping is initially slower. Bunny-Hopping takes practice and even players with years of Quake 3 Bunny-Hopping experience are still improving their technique and moving faster. Bunny-Hopping looks silly, nobody denies that either, but it adds a profound level of depth to the essentially stale movement of JK2.

[alarm]

THANK YOU DET

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Solo what's with you? It's not just that I don't like it, very few people like it. I didn't say I alone didn't like it, presented the fact that MotS is dead and JK1 is still alive. Please learn to read, think, and annalyze, and understand.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Bunny-Hopping looks silly, nobody denies that either, but it adds a profound level of depth to the essentially stale movement of JK2.

 

Be that as it may, it's a bug and should be squished. Profound depth?? People hopping around like mexican jumping beans = profound depth?? Jesus, if THIS is where we have to look to find depth in a game, you can tell that something went wrong somewhere. The depth should come from things like the combat system, the nuances of sabre fighting, the subtle details of why that one weapon that many folks find useless is actually quite deadly in the hands of a skilled player, etc. NOT from hopping around madly, regardless of how much time and effort you had to spend learning to do it, or how you can keep learning to do it better over time. It's a bug, plain and simple, and it should be removed.

 

I'm not saying I'm against depth in the game. Far from it. But I don't think your basic movement in ANY FPS is going to have tons of depth. Forward, backwards, strafing, jumping, ducking, and rolling. Those are your options. If you want depth in movement, we've got wall walking, flipping, kicking, jumping off of walls, etc. Those add plenty of depth, when used in the right moment.

 

For any other depth, profound or otherwise, we should be looking to the combat of the game, the layout of the maps, the force powers, guns, sabre techniques, etc. Not goofy looking glitches.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt

Solo what's with you? It's not just that I don't like it, very few people like it. I didn't say I alone didn't like it, presented the fact that MotS is dead and JK1 is still alive. Please learn to read, think, and annalyze, and understand.

 

Torment, what's with you? It's not just my opinion that class based games work. MOTS is dead, sure. JK1 is alive too, sure. But that wasn't really my point. If you'd bothered to read what I'd posted, you'd see that I was saying there are OTHER ways to implement classes in a game that will prove more successful. Team Fortress, Weapons Factory, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Battlefield: 1942, Tribes, Tribes 2, etc. These are all examples of popular, functioning, class-based games. They don't all use the same methods for classes, but they do have classes in some sense. Also, as I said above, I'm not looking to take AWAY your preferred game mode, whatever that may be. I'm just looking to have the class based stuff added IN ADDITION. Don't go jumping down people's throats because they disagree with you, and don't start telling folks to learn to read, think, analyze and understand until you're ready to practice what you preach.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Solo4114, bunny-hopping is NOT jumping around like a mad-man, each jump is based on precision and the movement is calculated by the player well in advance.

 

The only way anyone has got rid of the bunny-hopping element of the Quake engines is to literally slow down the player to practically stopping point whenever they land. The momentum just vanishes, play Counter-Strike for an example of how unnatural this feels. In a fast paced game like JK where you take HUGE unnatural jumps, the idea of the player suddenly losing all momentum when they land is beyond rediculous.

[Taos]

Can we please get back to constructive suggestions guys?

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Solo4114, bunny-hopping is NOT jumping around like a mad-man, each jump is based on precision and the movement is calculated by the player well in advance.

 

The only way anyone has got rid of the bunny-hopping element of the Quake engines is to literally slow down the player to practically stopping point whenever they land. The momentum just vanishes, play Counter-Strike for an example of how unnatural this feels. In a fast paced game like JK where you take HUGE unnatural jumps, the idea of the player suddenly losing all momentum when they land is beyond rediculous.

 

Well, if it's hard-coded into the engine, then there's nothing to be done about it in terms of removing it. What we're left with then, is to find some other means of making the game feel fast enough so that people don't particularly feel the need to bunny hop. That said, it's a pretty major flaw in the engine.

[TK_Nutritious]

Strafe-jumping isn't a flaw in the engine, it's been put there purposely by ID since quake 1. Why should an experienced player who has mastered the movements of the game be limited to the same rate of movement as someone who only knows how to hit the force-speed key? In jk2, especially the ctf gametype, strafe-jumping adds a whole new level of gameplay in which skill at maneuvering and timing play a crucial role in the success of a player and their team. Strafe-jumping is a skill built purposely into the engine to reward those who have practiced it to the point of mastery. To take it out is another step to reducing skilled players down to the level of those who have very little ability in the game.

[Aoshi]

Strafejumping also has its downsides as well. Perhaps people only see the aspect of faster movement when someone strafejumps but they fail to see that there is also decreased ability to aim. It takes a highly skilled player to be able to strafe after a flag carrier and still be able to shoot him. Naturally it does not affect aim by too much but in the CTF world it's inches and not yards that matter. A few inches is the difference between the last ditch shot with the bryar to stop a capper and a lost point.

 

p.s. The document is almost done. Truthful will be posting it here soon for people to see and comment on. Any other suggestions are welcome and constructive criticism is always welcome. HOWEVER people that sit around and say "go play quake blah blah i want to be able to have superleet jedi skillz with my maul saber and a lightsaber axe" please dont post. you can start a new thread with your fantasies for JA. Also this thread is not meant to be a debate between gunners and saberists or if strafejumping is a bug or not. We all know what strafejumping is and those of us that actually can do it probably know better than the ones who cant so please no more "strafe jumping is a bug i want it taken out... along with this this that and that because i think they're all exploits and jedis dont use exploits" thanks.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Originally posted by Solo4114

Torment, what's with you? It's not just my opinion that class based games work. MOTS is dead, sure. JK1 is alive too, sure. But that wasn't really my point. If you'd bothered to read what I'd posted, you'd see that I was saying there are OTHER ways to implement classes in a game that will prove more successful. Team Fortress, Weapons Factory, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Battlefield: 1942, Tribes, Tribes 2, etc. These are all examples of popular, functioning, class-based games. They don't all use the same methods for classes, but they do have classes in some sense. Also, as I said above, I'm not looking to take AWAY your preferred game mode, whatever that may be. I'm just looking to have the class based stuff added IN ADDITION. Don't go jumping down people's throats because they disagree with you, and don't start telling folks to learn to read, think, analyze and understand until you're ready to practice what you preach.

 

It's your opinion that class based games work yet you admit that MotS (class based) is dead and JK1 (not class based) is alive? Dude, you need to look into taking some basic common sense and logic classes lol.

 

JK is not RtcW or any other game, it's JK. Using MotS to judge the classed in the serious makes much more sense.

[Darth Groovy]

Originally posted by Leemu Taos

Can we please get back to constructive suggestions guys?

 

What he said. Do NOT make me start deleteing posts now.

[Valo]

put it this way guys, Raven is 60% completed with the game, they have all the levels and all the gameplay mechanics done. all they have to do now is put the story together and create the cutscenes, then it is onto testing. how do i know this? i knwo this from reading the interview with the developers of the game. So start your complaining when the demo comes out.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by TK_Nutritious

Strafe-jumping isn't a flaw in the engine, it's been put there purposely by ID since quake 1. Why should an experienced player who has mastered the movements of the game be limited to the same rate of movement as someone who only knows how to hit the force-speed key? In jk2, especially the ctf gametype, strafe-jumping adds a whole new level of gameplay in which skill at maneuvering and timing play a crucial role in the success of a player and their team. Strafe-jumping is a skill built purposely into the engine to reward those who have practiced it to the point of mastery. To take it out is another step to reducing skilled players down to the level of those who have very little ability in the game.

 

Do you have proof of this? Has ID publicly come forward and said "Yes, we left strafe jumping in the engine on purpose. We want to reward those who've taken the time to master it." If you've got proof of this, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, I'm going to continue to believe that it's a flaw in the game engine.

 

I mean, honestly, let's look at the assertion you seem to be making. I'll even break it down into a few neat little propositions.

 

1.) ID created the game engines for Q1 all the way through Q3TA. This is undisputed.

 

2.) In each successive engine, ID sought to model certain physics into the engine. IE: what goes up, comes down (unless you turn off gravity -- heh ), what flies straight does not all of a sudden turn, unless an outside force acts upon it, etc. Also undisputed (at least the fact that they coded physics into the engine).

 

3.) Specifically, with regards to movement, ID coded how players moved. Again, undisputed.

 

4.) Now, here's where I start getting a little skeptical. ID, despite spending plenty of time on other aspects of physics in-game that make perfect sense, purposely coded the game such that, when you jump and strafe at the same time, or move diagonally in mid-air (or on the ground, to a lesser degree -- not entirely sure of whether this is true or not), you move FASTER than if you run in a directly forward facing line, despite the fact that, logically, this makes no sense whatsoever. In fact, despite ID's in-game physics and the time they spent coding them, they coded something that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE: that you can actually CATCH UP TO a person who IS running in a straight line, by running in a zig-zagging pattern -- in essense, by taking a LONGER PATH, you can catch the person.

 

I just don't buy it. I mean, I'm not asking that when you jump and land you be stopped dead in your tracks. That WOULD screw up gameplay in a big way. But why the hell should you move FASTER on a diagonal than you do on a straight line? And I'm still not entirely convinced that this is hard-coded into the game itself. I mean, maybe it is. I freely admit that I don't really know about how the game is coded. But it seems to me that if Raven was able to actually slow players down when they move backwards as opposed to moving forwards, there ought to be SOME way to make it so that jumping in a diagonal line repeatedly doesn't make you move any faster than moving in any other direction.

 

Again, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that I want the ability to actually jump and and strafe at the same time removed. Far from it. I'm just saying make doing so the same speed as everything else. Just because people learned a particular skill based on what seems to me to be a pretty big friggin' bug in the engine, just because folks learned to manipulate an exploit, that doesn't mean they're skilled. I mean, it took people time to figure out how to do the DFA in 1.02. It took folks time to learn to do the backstab in 1.03. When people learned to counter those running backwards, it took people time to develop goofy combos where they'd pull/push you, then backstab you. That doesn't change the fact that these were all bugs/exploits. You can argue that Raven purposely left them in the game to reward skilled players, but that's just not the case. And yeah, there may be differing degrees of mastery of this particular exploit, in that not everyone can bunny hop at the same level, but so what? It's a BUG. Until someone can show me some authenticated proof that Carmack or someone else from ID said "Sure, we left it in. We wouldn't want n00bs to be able to run as fast as the veterans, would we?" or something to that effect, I ain't buying the notion that this has been done on purpose. It's a bug and I say swat it.

[Aoshi]

Yes we have all read the interview and one of the things we are lobbying for is a demo. Your post was in no way helpful and did not provide suggestions to enhance gameplay nor did it provide information that was not already on the table. Although you may consider the rest of the community illiterate I assure you that we are not. One of the biggest things that we are asking for is the demo because JK2 did NOT have a demo which was part of the cause of its downfall. If Raven released a demo to some beta testers some of the initial problems in 1.02 could have surely been corrected; however, they were too rushed to put the game on the shelves and were unable to properly test the game.

 

Solo: no one cares except for you. Please if you want so badly to criticize strafe jumping create another thread to do so. Dont do it in a thread entitled "Gameplay Suggestions." You have already amply suggested that YOU think strafe jumping should be taken out of the game. If you want to continue this pointless debate please create another thread and quit cluttering this one. thanks

[Matariel]

<sigh> this thread is getting way out of hand...

Raven are starting almost from scratch with this new game so:

(a) The sideways bunnyhopping probably will NOT be in the game, since it was a bug in the first place (and dont tell me its a legitimate 'skill' like the pull backstab rubbish)

 

(b) Raven have almost finished the game, so anything we say here may not be noticed until after release, but thats when it counts anyway because testing a game on 20 machines is a lot different than testing about 500,000 on the internet.

 

-That said, i dont want ppl to stop posting ideas, just get off flamin' each other and get off the bunnyhopping thing, and the class-based thing(there probably wont be classes, MP maybey, but i dont think so). If these ideas dont make it into the game, they are gold material for mod makers and stuff, and thats what this 'community' is all about!

[Taos]

de.legion told me he was done with the GSD. I think he'll have it ready for us to see very soon if not within the next day. So let's end this debate about the strafe jumping etc and wait to hear from Legion.

[Solo4114]

Aoishi, I'm just continuing a discussion that was already started before I chimed in on it. That I happen to be the most vocal person on the subject in the past 10 posts doesn't mean I'm the only one who had anything to say about it.

 

And hey, this IS a thread titled "Gameplay suggestions," but it seemed to take a particular route in its suggestions -- namely that they are suggestions focused around "hardcore" or competitive gamers. I'm just offering another perspective on the issue. If you don't like it, skip over my posts. It won't cause me any heartbreak, I guarantee you.

 

Now, as for OTHER useful suggestions, what about some kind of voice/radio chat commands programmed in for teamplay? Even if the only teamplay mode is CTF (and incidentally, they said there'd be "another different mode" in the game -- could be class-based, could be SAGA focused, could be whack-a-mole Jedi style), I'd sure find it useful to have pre-programmed radio commands to call out what you're doing, IE: defending, guarding flag carrier, etc. That's something that competitive and casual gamers alike could benefit from. For the competitive gamers, they could use 'em to call plays out (IE: if I call "Get flag, defend, defend", it means that we execute a particular pre-planned routine) without typing, and for casual gamers, well, you could just use it to do the obvious: say what you're doing or what you want someone else to do.