atx250 Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 lol, your funny m8 dont really go in for all that compation stuff. I aint great m8, i duel for a laugh, this is the reason i dont count myself as a NF'er, a FFA'er or any other 'er. I play with guns when i want, i duel without force the same, and ffa when i can be bothered. As for my clan, i dunno why they havent gone in for that, you would have to ask them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 A very thoughtful post Rumor, and it lends some insight into how the "clan mentality" works for many people. Good points. And yes, JK1 and JK2 were far more different from each other than JK2 and JA. I was just using an example of the similar mentality (ie: the old game was good, the new game sucks) from the elite community veterans. However, this I take issue with (you didn't think I'd agree with everything did you? heh): well, it has more moves than jk2, yes, but as for more complex, not unless you are speaking in terms of the # of moves you can do. the problem is that those extra moves do not add enough to make it to where there is a real learning curve. the moves themselves do not really add a terrible ammount, and in some cases they very easily will screw you up. That's a matter of opinion if they "add enough." I find that the extra moves, like say the butterfly/cartwheel and roll stabs add a little more. For example in a JK2 1.04 battle you have fewer options for dodging and attacking, meaning you're more likely to fall into a pattern, thus, its easier for a person to find an opening and kill you. This is assuming of course they are skilled, and yes, I know, falling into a pattern is something no skilled player should do if he can help it. But the point is, more options = more possibilities in different situations = less likely to fall into patterns. And of course we all know from the "S/O CTF kick debates" how much difference even one little move can make in the overall scheme of things... ; ) Now perhaps THAT makes people say "well it takes no skill" because "n00bs" (for lack of a better term) can just keep doing random different moves and never set a pattern that allows them to be beaten. However, this ignores the fact that moves still have counters, and while people may get lucky now and then, they can't always be and thus skill comes into play. Now, it seems in these debates people aren't pushing the "bad saber detection" as the reason for their accusations of "skilllessness" but rather the moves, so I'm going to assume that Ghoul2 collision detection and locational damage aren't part of their beef with JA. If your opinion is different please let me know though... As to the moves "getting you in trouble" as I see it, certain moves are "risky" but if timed right and done right they can be very helpful. Examples of these types of moves are the Katas and Twirls. Pathetic and stupid if done wrong, kill factories if done right. And of course they aren't really spammable (using normal mana regen) because they take half your mana away with each use (1/4 for the twirls, just like special moves). And drain can further limit their use in a FF Duel... So if a move is powerful but risky, I think that it still has a place in the arsenal. A person may choose not to use it, but that just means fewer options = more likely to fall into a vulnerable pattern = etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atx250 Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan so I'm going to assume that Ghoul2 collision detection and locational damage aren't part of their beef with JA. If your opinion is different please let me know though... I cant speak for everyone, but that is news to me, i didnt know what the Ghoul2 detection is, i just play the game. Ghoul2 is part of the game, so to me that is why i talk about JA in such a way. Not everyone knows the tech stuff, so they will explain it the best way they can, in my case anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan There's always somebody willing to give in and say "well okay I agree that we're all a bunch of n00bs with no skills, but the game is fun!" That was not the intent of my post. Although I can see as that is how you might have take it that way All I was saying is that in any game, there are going to be those that are happy and those that aren't. He makes claims about JA that it takes no skill to learn and that competatively and in general it sucks. I'm saying, "and?" because I don't see where he is going with these arguments. Is he trying to get people to give up the game because he personally doesn't like it? Does he think Raven is going to do a 180 and add all these complex 10-button moves to the game? I'm just saying that in the end, those who like JA will continue to, and those who don't can rant and rave all they want, or go onto something else. In the end this happens in most games, and is no unique to JA. And thus, for all involved, they will do what they want and life goes on. I am not saying that I agree with his claims. Originally posted by Kurgan Can't you see how illogical his argument is (in favor of saying that JA is skill-absent)? No offense, but you're just stroking his ego by saying he's right. ; ) Yes I can. The fact is that most of the moves remain from JO, and the new ones follow the same control style (2 or 3 buttons) as JO had. I don't see how JA is all of a sudden so unskilled when all of the moves require the same sort of input from the player as JO did. What moves in JO required overly complex input? Kick required just a double tap of jump. DFA was simple to execute. Grip kick, pull throw, etc. required nothing more than a couple button presses. I agree with you, how has JA sucked all the skill out of the foundation that JO laid? JA has just about every move that was in JO, so doesn't that mean that at least the majority of the learning curve required for JO is still in JA, let alone having to learn the new moves? There appears to be counters for every move in JA, so the skill comes in too see who call apply the attacks and counters to better effect. And the learning curve is not in learning how to learn each move but in learning how to use it well. Katas are usless when spammed, but using them in the right situations they are deadly. Kind of like chess. Learning actual moves of each piece is quite easy, but learning how to play chess well is more difficult. Learning how to execute the individual moves is JA is easy, as they only require a few buttons (just like those old arcade fighting games). But learning when to effectively use these moves is more difficult. JO was the same in this regard. Originally posted by Kurgan Anyway from what I've seen the people who this game is supposedly unworthy of their time spend an awful lot of time arguing and ranting against it. This is true. You would think that those who really don't like it would have posted their grievences and moved on. But I guess not. Originally posted by Kurgan Almost as if they are hoping that they can get people to leave the game and join their community... or get a patch that turns the game into... whatever it is they wanted and didn't get. I get the impression that the days of drastic gameplay altering patches are over after the fiasco with JO. I highly doubt that ranting and raving continually around this forum will result in getting a drastically different game. Originally posted by Kurgan I guess that's their perrogative, still! Yes it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by Jawa8578 As much as I hate FK's arrogance and smarm (no offence) they were infact one of the best JK2 clans. When they combined with shock clan, as much as I dont like to admit it, they were the best JK2 clan...Now tell me any good JK2 clan that plays JA. There are none. Why?...because JA is a step down in skill and intricity. Sure theres new JA clans. But how long until they play their first few matches and realsie...this game is too simple. How long until they've been practicing JA, only to learn that they're not getting any better because there's nothing left to acheive. That is the problem with JA. What unnamed said is right. Tell me any move thats in JA that you can't acheive first time of trying. The game is too simple. And yes people who sucked at JK2 are reveling with the prospect that they don't need to learn any difficult concepts to be good at a game. Are there any combo's that require pressing more than two buttons at once? It may seem irrelevent, but it means that you don't need to 'leran' timing, combos ect. The game requires less skill and less practice and no competetive community can thrive on that. So....The "Elite" by their own definition is the minority. They find fault with the majority saying they suck. The Elite have a problem with the majority not caring about being Elite, but instead, just wanting to play the game and have fun. Hmmm.... Here is the real question then, Why don't the Elite GO BACK to JKO and stop whining about JA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w00ki3 Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 You can't see hoiw JA has removed the skill JK2 required simply because you're not experienced enough. I mean no disrespect, but anyone who is experienced in J2 can see how JA requires less skill. Just to clear things up, JA hasn't removed "one move" They removed key moves that were required to make some modes operational (such as s/o ctf). Kick grip kick rage dfa pull throw ptk out of los gripping rolling to dodge swings and/or speed up and thats just off the top of my head. Its not even mentioning all the nurfs such as making drain more powerful than the damage inflicted, meaning ff s/o duels CAN NEVER be won (providing you have drain). But again thats not the issue. Nor is that saber hit and block detection are now worse than ever. They were pretty poor in JK2, lucasarts relying on modders to fix their problems. But now in JA, its even worse. Whats more concerning is the way people like Sam Fisher actually believe there is no problem...its obvious, come on people. But yet again, its non of these issues that make JA less skillful (although they don't help it by any means). Many moves have been removed. Whats been added? answer, tell me whats been addedd. We have: rollstab kata butterfly ....Ok so less moves. The swing selection is identical to JK2, so no other additional swings have been added. Seems like theres actually less variety and intricity in the game. But wait, theres more, this is a major reason reason why JA requires less skill: Tell me one move, any move, that requires practicing. Tell me one move that you cant master first time of trying (providing you're not stupid). I mean roll stab...easy. Butterfly...easy. Kata...easy. What's the point of training and practicing? There's nothing to 'aim' for. This means clans see no point in dedicating to a game where even the noobiest of noobs can 'master' it in a day. thus, competetive community dies and clans die. I hope this clears things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan And you determined this how? (Putting aside my thorough and unbiased double-blind tests under laboratory conditions for a moment) Isn't this all assuming the following? 1) The clans you (FK | unnamed) played with were the best in JK2. 2) Apart from these elite clans, everybody pretty much "sucked." (Ie: most of the community) 3) These clans don't play JA in any real capacity (having deemed it unworthy). 4) "Everybody else" plays JA now (ie: the people who "sucked" before). 5) Nobody in JA will ever reach the level of skill that the above elite clans did with JK2. Just asking... cause that is a lot to assume (ie: a big leap in logic), and it sounds pretty egotistical if you don't mind my saying so. Just an observation. 1- Yes, if you know any better feel free to toss out some names. Sanguis Frater produced the most dominant 1v1 players in Jedi Outcast history (I was a part of that clan). Almost every member of that team dominated any and all 1v1 ladders in competitive Jedi Outcast gaming from the day 1.04 came out to the end. Fallen Knights (I became part of this clan after a merger) along with [div3rse] (a separate clan, we competed against them) and =X= were the most dominate clans in competitive Jedi Outcast team based gaming. Feel free to name clans who were more dominant than those. 2-Yes. I don't like to use the word "sucked" but you've seen the demos I've posted in the past. Players like myself could go onto non-competitive clan servers (as in any and all servers full of people other than those we competed against) and just beat the living unholy hell out of people. 3-There are no "elite" clans or players in Academy, period. The game is just too simplistic and limited to draw in the hardcore competitive gamers in large numbers. 4-No, there are a few old school veterans who play JA, but the numbers are very small. 5-Not unless more content is added. I'm sorry Kurgan but if you can't see just how limited the possibility of expansion of game play is due to the removals and nerfs, then quite frankly, you don't know much about sabers and force (no disrespect meant). I mean I've played Jedi Academy for all of maybe 10 hours since it was released, yet even today, I can go onto almost full force duel server and dominate. I just do simple things like "play Euro" (this is a style of competition play that involves a lot of running, strafe jumping and push/pull throwing, level 2 lightning and level 2 drain) and frustrate the hell out of the star wars newbie’s. there is NO reason a player with as little experience in a game as I have, should be able to go on and do that.... unless..... The game content remains largely the same as it's predecessor, and those I am playing lack the knowledge and skill to poke holes in my strategy because they never acquired them in Outcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by VaderJM Well, actually, come to think of it, I think unnamed, if he is homo ewok like I think he is, was in the best saber JK2 clan. As far as the saber competitive community went in JK2, it was FK, SF (which I think he was in), and FoTS (who went into shame and exile after the infamous script incident). yes that was/is me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan It's more complex than JK2. Before you balk, it has more moves. It removed 1 move, and added dozens more. How is that "too simple"? I think what you said is just the opposite of reality. Does adding more moves make the game "simpler"? Or are you implying that "a n00b can just use one move over and over and always win"? (I have heard that accusation before, but its usually been smacked down by the holes in it). Such as? Enough people are complaining that their "uber moves" from JK2 aren't as powerful as they once were. Isn't this proof that their supposed "suckage" isn't really based on anything? It's a fact that many of the people playing JA have NEVER PLAYED JK2 BEFORE. Does that mean they suck at JK2? Maybe, but you can't judge them because they haven't played the game. What this argument is implying is that JK2 was made up of skillful people, and that JA "ruined it" by changing the game to appeal to "n00bs" and left the skilled players out in the cold. I remember hearing the same argument made by a few elite players with JK1 (ie: JK2 is dumbed down for people who sucked at JK1). Somehow I just don't buy it. Sounds more like they're just angry that the game forced them to change their playing style. So skill = pressing more than 2 buttons at once? Heh, ok. ; ) Actually, can you name me some combos that DO (that are in JK2 but not in JA)? Update: Though if we're talking about individual moves, I suppose Cartwheel/Butterfly take skill because they require the pressing of 3 buttons to perform each. Likewise the lunge takes 3. So does the DFA and "yellow DFA." They aren't combos, but still... and the latter moves are also in JK2. Anyway since when does holding down lots of keys constitute "skill"? People can just script any move to one button anyway. Because for the most part, the so-called "combos" are done by pressing a sequence of buttons, or tapping a button, not holding down a huge number of keys at once. Now JK1 had some great "combos" in the classic sense, from a certain point of view. That's the funniest statement ever. Timing doesn't need to be learned? Combos don't need to be learned? Less skill? Less practice? Seriously, are we even talking about the same game? Last time I checked many of the moves in JA are the same as JK2. If you're saying that JK2 "masters" therefore didn't need to learn anything new, that's not the same as saying the game requires no skill. That's like saying street hockey requires no skill because you are already an ice hockey master and didn't have to learn much new stuff... Then again, if something changes, don't you have to "learn the new way/timing/method/strategy"? Or are you saying that you can win every time, regardless of your opponent's skill with one move? Again, you make the accusations, but don't provide any evidence (other than hearsay). That last paragraph of your's sounds like a tautology. come on man, I know you don't buy that. While the combos in Outcast did require a hell of a lot more finger speed, hand eye coordination and dexterity to pull off than anything present in Academy, it's not all about the button pressing. The simple truth was, the game was unrestricted, and it allowed players to think and create and expand. Academy has so many damn nerfs in the wrong places it totally eliminates a player’s ability to pull off almost anything that is not listed in the game manual. If you (or any one for that matter) seriously doubt the level of skill difference between these two games let’s do this: Go find the most complex and insane combo you could ever dream of in Academy, hell you don't even have to do it, if you see another player do it, just demo it and post it. I bet you a player like myself who does not even play this game, could do it in fewer than 2 tries and in less than 1 minute flat. Then I'll go post a demo of a very complex combo from Outcast and I bet the vast majority of you could not pull it off against a live opponent after 2 weeks of practice. Kurgan, with Academy what you see is what you get man; there is no way around that. You know as well as I do that the competitive community has been playing this game since the "B word" days. Every thing that could be found, has been found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiaSowapit Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Just a few personal observations... First off, the day I start deciding whether or not a game is worthwhile based upon how many "clans" are playing it, I hope someone takes my computer away. Secondly, am I the only one who sees the irony in calling someone who just beat you a "n00b?" Oh really? A "n00b" bested you? Perhaps you should redefine your definition of "n00b?" Point three: I've got to agree with Kurgan et all. For all the bitchin' & moaning about how the "elite" have left JA in disgust, good golly they sure seem obsessed with continuing to post on these forums. Funny, for people so insistent on convincing the community at large that Academy is beneath them, letting go still appears to be a problem. Some unsolicited free advice for anyone vehement that JA is a total and complete disappointment: take your copy of Academy back to the retail store from which it was purchased (you did legitimately purchase the game, right?) and DEMAND your money back. If you still have an axe to grind, spend the refund on postage to send hate mail to LucasArts/Raven directly, AND SPARE THE REST OF US! Short of that, crack open a book on C++, then when the SDK comes out, shame Raven and blow us all away with your "l337" coding "skillz." You know what "move" requires the least amount of skill and is arguably "spammed" the most? Bitching. BTW, totally off topic, but would it kill some of you people to invest in a spell checker and hit the return key every now and then? Posts without paragraphs, punctuation or even remedial spelling/grammar might contain some great ideas/valid arguments, but if no one can read it, what's the point? Not to come across as a grammar Nazi, and no offense/disrespect intended to our non-natively English speaking friends, but c'mon already; if you want your voice to be heard, please put a little more effort into making it legible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|GG|Carl Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan A game is unbalanced if: 1) I win every time. (I can exploit the game so it's too easy) Or 2) I don't win every time. (Other people can exploit the game so it's too hard) Hey! That's true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by KaiaSowapit Short of that, crack open a book on C++, then when the SDK comes out, shame Raven and blow us all away with your "l337" coding "skillz." We have 3 mod teams in the competitive community waiting to get to work (one of which is the author of the popular Jedi Outcast competition mod =X= mod) and in short, that is the ONLY reason why we are here. We are pushing for the SDK. Trust me guy, I have no desire to sit here and watch people get all wet over count Chewbacca vs. darth Spock debates, I have no desire to be lectured on game play mechanics by random newbie’s and sub-par players. Right now Academy bores me do death, the majority of the people playing it are terrible players because they never learned many of the fundamental game play techniques from Outcast that are still present and there is simply no competition. That said, when those players from Outcast who did know their stuff compete with each other in Academy.... the game almost always results in a stale mate because both sides have spent a lot of time studying the game mechanics and know what to exploit to stay alive. The problem is, the defensive options far outweighs the offensive options in this game (in terms of effectiveness) and when you get two players or teams who know how to exploit this, nothing happens, literally. So it's a lose/lose situation for us with out the SDK, we can either beat up newbies who are bouncing around doing their butterflies and pretending to be darth maul, or we can play 20 minute matches with experienced teams that always end in a score of 0/0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 You people crack me up... Seriously. The whole grandiose delusion that JA is a finished product and contains a level of competitiveness and technicality is perhaps the biggest joke I have ever laid eyes onto. And the fact that those of us who knew JKII inside and out, those of us who took the time to get down the force combos, the particular saber slashes and timings (none of that 3-strong crap, actual saber fighting), and the tricks of the trade, watched as Raven and LucasArts took not a step forward, but three steps backward. On a further point, you think Rumor, unnamed, me, as well as other, are losing sleep over your comments? That we bitch? Last time I checked, it was your bitching that got JKII to where it was ****ed in the first place. "NERF KICK! TEH LLAMAZ R USING KICK!" or "FORCE DRAIN IS LAME! NERF DRAIN!" I could go on endlessly. My old friend Fatal once had an adage in 1.03, went along the lines of "lightsabers will soon be like ravers with glowsticks." If he was here today, after playing Jedi Academy, I would damn well love to see him say, "told you so." Face it, even a retarded chimp can play Jedi Academy and be proficient in its wild randomness. The blue stance n00b everyone did not fear in JKII is now a damn threat in JA, that's how bad it is. On a guns server, I don't even touch the saber anymore. That's how gimped the damn thing is. Want to know why the saber is shunned? Randomness. Right now, that randomness is pretty much obvious. Hit detection, auto blocking, the instant death chances, etc. All of those are random. If you compare that to JKII, it's too random. In JKII, a hit was a hit. In JA, a perfect swing turns into a half ass block, or passes through a person's torso. I swear upon God, Allah, Yahweh, whatever you believe in, if one more person comes out saying "use this cvar," then I hope you're smited by your higher power. Cvars are not the be all, end all solution. Servers do not pertain to one standard of configuration. We knew it going into JA; all gametypes were not created equal. The saber has fluxuated damage levels. If you're stuck in your wooden spherical world of "perfect server configuration," believing that it will help attract more people, then I hope that world is lit up by an arsonist. Now, want to know why we're still here? The SDK. That's right, the SDK. The only way the competitive scene has a chance to stay alive in Jedi Academy. We've already stated our problems with SO/FF CTF alone, despite the harsh criticism of the clueless and ignorant. OMG, who playz CTF wif saberz!?! N00bz! Get bent. LucasArts has shown no intentions of fixing SO/FF at all. They would rather leave it in it's gimped state, saying it's finished product and move onto other things, like installing a full blown admin mod. This part is overdue, so spare me the bull****. The fact that you collective retards decide to stand on your soapbox day in, day out, yelling til your face is blue that JA is a magnificent game, deserving lauded praise, only to go crying to your mother when someone else says different, shows that you enjoy being LucasArts' prison bitch. Hell, they don't even have to do a single thing. All they have to do is create box art, say it has sabers, force, and put the Star Wars name on it, and you would eat it up like crack fiends. When someone comes along saying there's nothing in the box, you people act like you got bit by a racoon who has rabies (yes, foamin at the mouth included). "Oh noes! They insuted r rel1gonz!11! Pplz liev r @ steak!!111" Seriously, get over yourselves. There's a wide appeal to both the Star Wars name, as well as the FPS genre. This encompases both the honor code argument (BTW, this is an obligatory sit and twirl), as well as the people who decide to argue that there is skill in a game that is utterly random. Telling someone to go back to JKII, or to go play UT2k3, does not help your cause at all. Instead, all you do is alienate another group from a game they wanted to enjoy. Next time they see a product of the same line, they're not only going to think of how crappy the last game was, they're also going to think ****ed the rabid fanbase is. Want to know why I resort to flaming, to name calling? Because as a whole, people on this forum are clueless. CLUELESS. The prison bitch comparison still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by Jawa8578 This means clans see no point in dedicating to a game where even the noobiest of noobs can 'master' it in a day. thus, competetive community dies and clans die. It is unfortunate that clans feel that way, and I wish that everyone was happy. But if the competative community has in fact died and they have all left as has been reported, then so be it. It still does not really affect the rest of us who do not have this elite status. Since there is nothing that can be done to please you, then why not let the issue drop until the SDK is released and you guys can do what you want with the game? If you feel JA takes less skill, that's your right. Calling us all newbs isn't going to change how you or we feel about the game. If you really want change, why not focus on doing something that might help you get what you want, like actively contact Raven/Lucasarts to release the SDK? I would think that would be much more productive (as futile as it may turn out to be), unless of course putting us down makes you feel better Originally posted by FK | unnamed We have 3 mod teams in the competitive community waiting to get to work (one of which is the author of the popular Jedi Outcast competition mod =X= mod) and in short, that is the ONLY reason why we are here. We are pushing for the SDK. Excellent. I can only hope that it will be here soon. In the mean time, rants against the other parts of the community (just from people in general, FK | unnamed) gets little accomplished, don't you think? Originally posted by FK | unnamed Trust me guy, I have no desire to sit here and watch people get all wet over count Chewbacca vs. darth Spock debates, I have no desire to be lectured on game play mechanics by random newbie?s and sub-par players. Then why are you here? I'm not demanding you leave by any means. But if browsing and posting at these forums is so torturous, they why come hereat all? No one is forcing you to (are they?). Originally posted by FK | unnamed Right now Academy bores me do death, the majority of the people playing it are terrible players because they never learned many of the fundamental game play techniques from Outcast that are still present and there is simply no competition. That said, when those players from Outcast who did know their stuff compete with each other in Academy.... the game almost always results in a stale mate because both sides have spent a lot of time studying the game mechanics and know what to exploit to stay alive. The problem is, the defensive options far outweighs the offensive options in this game (in terms of effectiveness) and when you get two players or teams who know how to exploit this, nothing happens, literally. Okay, so you and the competative community hate the game for a variety of reasons. No problem, there is nothing wrong with that. But why play it at all? Uninstall it from your machine and put it back on the shelf. Then play JO or any other game you enjoy instead (I sure you've done these things already though). Just continue to check to see if the SDK has been released, and in the meantime email Raven/Lucasarts. Wouldn't all this make you happier? I mean, no one is forcing anyone to play a game you hate. Originally posted by FK | unnamed So it's a lose/lose situation for us with out the SDK, we can either beat up newbies who are bouncing around doing their butterflies and pretending to be darth maul, or we can play 20 minute matches with experienced teams that always end in a score of 0/0. Or again the third option is to stop playing JA and play another game which you actually enjoy. At least until the SDK is released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by Rad Blackrose Now, want to know why we're still here? The SDK. That's right, the SDK. The only way the competitive scene has a chance to stay alive in Jedi Academy. Since the SDK isn't out yet, why not just leave JA (and the forum, since competative players seem to dislike so many people here) alone until it does come out and mods can be created? I'm not demanding you or anyone else leave, it just sounds like you'd be happier of you just waited for the SDK. Originally posted by Rad Blackrose Telling someone to go back to JKII, or to go play UT2k3, does not help your cause at all. Instead, all you do is alienate another group from a game they wanted to enjoy. Certainly there has been a lot of flaming over the past two months from all sides. But calling everyone clueless and ignorant newbs also alienates non-competative players as well. And I don't think anything posted in these forums caused any competative player not to like JA. I can't speak for others, but I'm not telling anyone to go back to JO or any other game. The bigger the community the better as far as I am concerned. I'm just wondering why people don't leave JA on their own for those other games, since by all indications they would be happier doing just that. I am genuinely interested why this hasn't seemed to have happened. I mean, the SDK isn't out yet, so it seems that in the mean time the competative community has no reason to play JA. I mean, there isn't any point playing to get better, since all the elite players have already mastered it. So why aren't these groups playing JO (or UT2k3 or whatever) in the meantime? Aren't these the games you want to play right now, and not JA? And since the competative players and clans have all left JA, shouldn't that give these players even less reason to play JA, and even more reason to play JO? All these clans are now playing JO anyway, correct? I don't know for sure, but this is the impression I get. And if so, why isn't the focus on discussing those games (at least around here), but talking about a game they hate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w00ki3 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 haha prison bitches! I can never read Kurgan's or Prime's posts seriously again lol Don't you love it when Prime and Sam Fisher lecture people on how to kill an fc in s/o ff ctf? I think one of the better suggestions was "Shoot him!!111212q11! gg Originally posted by Prime We're all a bunch of n00bs with no skills, but the game is fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiaSowapit Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by FK | unnamed ...when those players from Outcast who did know their stuff compete with each other in Academy.... the game almost always results in a stale mate because both sides have spent a lot of time studying the game mechanics and know what to exploit to stay alive. I respect and appreciate what you're saying... but (eventually) when won't this be a problem? For better or worse, Raven/LucasArts is in the business of selling product. You might argue that they could have included more advanced options for competitive players (via cvars or whatnot) and I'd agree with you. But nevertheless, we're talking about a very slim segment of the game population. We can't begrudge them for not catering to everyone's needs. There's always going to be someone who isn't happy with the game. That's what the SDK is all about. Just try to be patient and thankful for its eventual release. Originally posted by Rad Blackrose The whole grandiose delusion that JA is a finished product and contains a level of competitiveness and technicality is perhaps the biggest joke I have ever laid eyes onto. That's your opinion. My ability to do anything about it, is equal to my interest in hearing it (over & over in childish rant form): ZERO. That's my main point. I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with you (there ARE things I'd like to change and intend to once the SDK is released), but angst & flames are a waste of bandwidth. Originally posted by Rad Blackrose I swear upon God, Allah, Yahweh, whatever you believe in... I'm an atheist, thanks. Originally posted by Rad Blackrose The fact that you collective retards decide to stand on your soapbox... Look in the mirror. Originally posted by Rad Blackrose Want to know why I resort to flaming, to name calling? Because you lack the maturity and intelligence to conduct yourself otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atx250 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by Prime Or again the third option is to stop playing JA and play another game which you actually enjoy. At least until the SDK is released. That is what most people are trying to avoid, most clans have worked hard to bring there clan into JA on the strengh of JO. Websites have been made, money spent on servers, games bought, and so on. You really beleive people will give it up and abandon the money and time they have spent in make the jump from JO, to JA. With that in mind, cant you at least see why people are miffed? I know i already made my mind up about about playing JA long before it was released, and have been making preperations since forever, Becouse i had faith that the game would be as great as JO at least. I still have that hope, this is why i cling to the game, and my belief is why others cling to this game. If it was any other game i would have played SP and tossed it in the back of my cupboard, but i just cannot do that. JA has so much potential and live in hope the SDK will be released....................PLEASE. Ps To people that are wishing us to go away, I come here becouse our voices are not silenced, and is the best platform for us to be heard, i dont want to argue, just debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by Jawa8578 I can never read Kurgan's or Prime's posts seriously again lol How aweful for me. Originally posted by Jawa8578 Don't you love it when Prime and Sam Fisher lecture people on how to kill an fc in s/o ff ctf? I think one of the better suggestions was "Shoot him!!111212q11! gg Can you show me where I said that? Originally posted by atx250 That is not an option, most clans have worked hard to bring there clan into JA on the strengh of JO. Websites have been made, money spent on servers, games bought, and so on. You really beleive people will give it up and abandon the money and time they have spent in make the jump from JO, to JA. With that in mind, cant you at least see why people are miffed? I understand that JA is by no means a perfect game, and that there are problems. I understand that many people do not like JA for a variety of legitimate reasons, and that their reasons for playing JA may be different than mine. I know what you mean about people wanting to get their money's worth. But it just seems to me that people are making themselves miserable playing a game they hate, that's all. At what point do people cut their losses? Originally posted by atx250 I know i already made my mind up about about playing JA long before it was released, and have been making preperations since forever, Becouse i had faith that the game would be as great as JO at least. But without waiting to see if a new game is really going to live up to your expectations and deliver what you want, then unfortunately you are opening yourself up to potentially being disappointed. Originally posted by atx250 I still have that hope, this is why i cling to the game, and my belief is why others cling to this game. If it was any other game i would have played SP and tossed it in the back of my cupboard, but i just cannot do that. I hope that when the SDK is released that the competative community with return and thrive. Originally posted by atx250 JA has so much potential and live in hope the SDK will be released....................PLEASE. It would be nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 In no way do I mean to offend, these are just my opinions. This is really sad people, its a f***** game. Is it really all that important to argue over these things, we all have are own opinions, nothing can be mastered in this world, and? Prime, Unnamed has provided alot of input on facts regarding alot of these issues from the competitive comm, don't really think I've ever seen him troll or flame. Jawa8578, Rolling to speed up, yeah that move made alot of sense. Rest of the Elite comm, Not all of these people hear are adults(this forum), don't assume they can reason with your assuptions. Majority of them just want to have a good time just like you all do, and they know they will never be apart of your clics', does that mean they are a lesser person, no, not in my opinion. Maybe if we all binded are moves and could spam kick, things would be better eh? Newbie with no skills, eniaC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atx250 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by Prime I understand that JA is by no means a perfect game, and that there are problems. I understand that many people do not like JA for a variety of legitimate reasons, and that their reasons for playing JA may be different than mine. I know what you mean about people wanting to get their money's worth. But it just seems to me that people are making themselves miserable playing a game they hate, that's all. At what point do people cut their losses? Yea i can see how you came to that conclussion, but i DO acctually enjoy playing, I have been spoiled by JO, That is proberly why i post here instead of just getting on with it. I have played a fair few online games, but none grabbed me or excited me as much as swinging a saber around. and for that i will always be greatfull to lucasarts and raven, tho i may not always show it. atx250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan A very thoughtful post Rumor, and it lends some insight into how the "clan mentality" works for many people. Good points. And yes, JK1 and JK2 were far more different from each other than JK2 and JA. I was just using an example of the similar mentality (ie: the old game was good, the new game sucks) from the elite community veterans. However, this I take issue with (you didn't think I'd agree with everything did you? heh): That's a matter of opinion if they "add enough." I find that the extra moves, like say the butterfly/cartwheel and roll stabs add a little more. For example in a JK2 1.04 battle you have fewer options for dodging and attacking, meaning you're more likely to fall into a pattern, thus, its easier for a person to find an opening and kill you. This is assuming of course they are skilled, and yes, I know, falling into a pattern is something no skilled player should do if he can help it. But the point is, more options = more possibilities in different situations = less likely to fall into patterns. And of course we all know from the "S/O CTF kick debates" how much difference even one little move can make in the overall scheme of things... ; ) Now perhaps THAT makes people say "well it takes no skill" because "n00bs" (for lack of a better term) can just keep doing random different moves and never set a pattern that allows them to be beaten. However, this ignores the fact that moves still have counters, and while people may get lucky now and then, they can't always be and thus skill comes into play. Now, it seems in these debates people aren't pushing the "bad saber detection" as the reason for their accusations of "skilllessness" but rather the moves, so I'm going to assume that Ghoul2 collision detection and locational damage aren't part of their beef with JA. If your opinion is different please let me know though... As to the moves "getting you in trouble" as I see it, certain moves are "risky" but if timed right and done right they can be very helpful. Examples of these types of moves are the Katas and Twirls. Pathetic and stupid if done wrong, kill factories if done right. And of course they aren't really spammable (using normal mana regen) because they take half your mana away with each use (1/4 for the twirls, just like special moves). And drain can further limit their use in a FF Duel... So if a move is powerful but risky, I think that it still has a place in the arsenal. A person may choose not to use it, but that just means fewer options = more likely to fall into a vulnerable pattern = etc. things i hate about JA (no real order): 1. no kicks 2. no griphiding 3. hit detection 4. netcode 5. vehicle controls 6. movement speed 7. rolling the hit detection i hate the most, followed closely by kicks, rolling, and netcode, movement, then griphiding. i'm sure there are other things, but you get the gist. i was playing this guy on TWL in a 1v1 match. in order to avoid his butterfly's and other attacks (rolls are so damn slow...) i strafejumped a lot. i had double sabers with maxed out saber defense and offense, and if he would even barely scrape the edge of my hitboxes on my foot then i would die, with full health. this happened over and over. after 3x that happening i changed to single saber, and i would use the normal tacticl of deflecting his attacks and kata's and butterfly's with redstance, and i do hardly any damage from hits that passed through his entire body, and even from consecutive 3-hit combos. all the while, his shots were doing 40+ damage every single time. needless to say i lost that one 10-9. one thing that drives me nuts is if i'm moving along a catwalk or whatever narrow thing i'm sj'ing along, and all of a sudden it will move into a cartwheel or a butterfly (i never looked at the moves list to see what the cartwheel combo is) and i fly off the edge, losing my chance to cap the flag or kill a capper, etc. they have their uses but they are annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by FK | unnamed 1- Yes, if you know any better feel free to toss out some names. Sanguis Frater produced the most dominant 1v1 players in Jedi Outcast history (I was a part of that clan). Almost every member of that team dominated any and all 1v1 ladders in competitive Jedi Outcast gaming from the day 1.04 came out to the end. Fallen Knights (I became part of this clan after a merger) along with [div3rse] (a separate clan, we competed against them) and =X= were the most dominate clans in competitive Jedi Outcast team based gaming. Feel free to name clans who were more dominant than those. 2-Yes. I don't like to use the word "sucked" but you've seen the demos I've posted in the past. Players like myself could go onto non-competitive clan servers (as in any and all servers full of people other than those we competed against) and just beat the living unholy hell out of people. 3-There are no "elite" clans or players in Academy, period. The game is just too simplistic and limited to draw in the hardcore competitive gamers in large numbers. 4-No, there are a few old school veterans who play JA, but the numbers are very small. 5-Not unless more content is added. I'm sorry Kurgan but if you can't see just how limited the possibility of expansion of game play is due to the removals and nerfs, then quite frankly, you don't know much about sabers and force (no disrespect meant). I mean I've played Jedi Academy for all of maybe 10 hours since it was released, yet even today, I can go onto almost full force duel server and dominate. I just do simple things like "play Euro" (this is a style of competition play that involves a lot of running, strafe jumping and push/pull throwing, level 2 lightning and level 2 drain) and frustrate the hell out of the star wars newbie’s. there is NO reason a player with as little experience in a game as I have, should be able to go on and do that.... unless..... The game content remains largely the same as it's predecessor, and those I am playing lack the knowledge and skill to poke holes in my strategy because they never acquired them in Outcast. precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Just out of curiousity, is TWL using 1.0.0.0 or 1.0.1.0? *edit* or 1.0.1.1, whatever...nvrmnd find it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by KaiaSowapit I respect and appreciate what you're saying... but (eventually) when won't this be a problem? For better or worse, Raven/LucasArts is in the business of selling product. You might argue that they could have included more advanced options for competitive players (via cvars or whatnot) and I'd agree with you. But nevertheless, we're talking about a very slim segment of the game population. We can't begrudge them for not catering to everyone's needs. There's always going to be someone who isn't happy with the game. That's what the SDK is all about. Just try to be patient and thankful for its eventual release. I totally agree with you, I'm one of the few competitive players who WANTS the newbie’s/casual players to stick around and have fun. This may sound weird, but one of the bad things about Outcast that I did not like was it's incredibly high learning curve. There really was no "middle ground" for the average/casual players. You either played it non-stop/became "elite" or you got murdered by those who did. This caused a hell of a lot of frustration and the more vocal the average players became, the more things got nerfed all to hell. 1.02 despite it's flaws and bugs had a "middle ground" or a "great equalizer" in the form of high damage sabers and devastating moves and powers. Sure a competitive player would mop the floor with a newbie most of the time, but that newbie had a much better chance of getting in a "lucky shot" and winning a match in 1.02 than he did in 1.04. In 1.04 I could literally go to almost any non competitive clan server that showed up on the master list, take on 5-6 people at once and just beat them down. I will be the first to admit there is something seriously wrong with that. Don't get me wrong, I do think that if a person does practice and perfect his game, he should be able to dominate, but when there is such a huge difference between "knowing the game" and knowing the game that one guy can wipe out entire servers of seasoned players... that's a little messed up and it's going to drive a lot of people who do not have the time or desire to really spend a lot of time learning the more complex parts of the game, right out the door. And Prime, like Jawa said, a lot of us have invested a lot of time and money in servers, sites, people etc. We have gone out and befriended and recruited people to play this game competitively and we are basically at a point now where it is a waiting game. We really don't post here much, I myself only pop in now and then (RTCW: ET has me addicted) to check and see if the SDK came out. The reason you may see me "flame" now and then is revisionist history on the part of a lot of people around here. Take that jackass spider al for example. People tend to forget that it was not the competitive gamer that brought about those patches in Outcast, it was the *casual gamer. League and ladder players where not the ones whining and crying about back stabs and DFA's, it was the average Joe players. Now we all *should have learned that the people who know the least about the game should not be the ones listened to when it comes time to make game play changes. But we fast forward to present time and what do we have? The same damn newbies who pissed and moaned about kicks, back stabs (and god knows what else they were too stupid to figure out how to counter) trying to flip the coin and play it off like they have been opposed to "whiners" all along and they were not the ones crying for patches every 30 seconds. I'm sorry but when I see some damn newbie saying "adapt and learn" to a competition level player who is doing nothing more than pointing out some problems with a specific game type, then... I search this damn newbie’s posts and see nothing but "OMFG THE PULL BACK STAB IS LAME FIX IT I HATE SPAMMERS" posts from him..... It’s not hard to see where our "attitude problems" are coming from. I mean really, am I the only one who has noticed the sheer absurdity of the things a lot of you have been posting? "I don't play full force saber only, and I'm not a very good player but I'm going to lecture you on what you need to do and I'm going to call you a whiner in the process". That’s about as f-ing stupid as me going to the SWG forums and giving people crap about issues they have with game play when I don't even play the damn game. And many of you wonder why our tempers flare.... That ^ was not a flame at you prime, but come one man, if I came to your job, had no or little experience in your field of work and constantly stood over your shoulder and told you what you needed to do, not to mention insulted you in the process, how long would it take you to look up and tell me to “bugger off”? That is all that is going on here man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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