Druid Bremen Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Originally posted by kipperthefrog WAIT! your argument is that the unborn feutus is not alive yet in the first place? What IS living and whas not? I say, if it can be killed, it is ALIVE! ITS GROWING! Rather it can see, feel, or think or NOT!!!! Understand??? after and only AFTER you kill it it is considered dead! (you cant kill it if its already dead!) Before you kill it, its ALIVE!! HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE between life and death: A feutus that is growing is alive! (you can kill it!) a fetus that is NOT growing is NOT alive! (you can't kill it becuase it's already dead!) who CARES if its not consius yet? who CARES if it can feel pain? if its growing and you can kill it, its alive! ... You should read more carefully. Nobody ever said that it isn't alive. A sperm is alive. An egg is alive. They combine, and grow to form a fetus. All through this, it is alive. We are simply trying to find out at which stage is the fetus a human, and in which stage is it NOT. I only define a fetus human when it has consciousness, when its nervous system is developed enough to feel. When it has developed thus far, I would think it is wrong to kill it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Originally posted by reelguy227 Heres my story ,I was born 7 months premature Surely that's seven weeks? Seven months early, it's called a miscarriage. Those are not kept alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 It makes him a scientific marvel. A medical miracle He must've meant "7 weeks" not "7 months." 7 Months would put the fetus at only 8 weeks maturation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 7 months gestation,2 months before birth, is what I meant ,my mistake ,my mistake . God Bless, Reelguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 hmm, 7 months pregnant. certainly it seems to me that everyone in here who has advocated abortion has said specifically it is only agreeable before the third month....which is 4 months sooner than you were born...so that little story of yours had NO relevance to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 so that little story of yours had NO relevance to the discussion.Quite, but hardly surprising, since fundamentalist religious beliefs are inherently irrelevant too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipperthefrog Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 If I cut off my finger you can test my finger and it will have human DNA. Is my finger a human? Is it wrong to let my finger die? Should we preserve it in a jar? Sure a fetus will EVENTUALLY grow into a human, just as my sperm would EVENTUALLY fertilize and egg and become a human as well, assuming I offer them the proper conditions. A human FINGER has human dna, but it is not HUMAN becuase it is a PART of a human! A feutus has Human dna It IS human becuase it is a tiny WHOLE human! Rather you call it one or NOT! the leaf and he seed: tearing off the leaf of a plant wont kill the plant!, but removing the SEED of a plant would destroy the BABY plant inside it, killing the baby plant! the leaf is not a whole plant, but the seed containes a whole pland who happens to be SMALLER in scale! same with the finger and the fetus!! the sperm is not a whole baby, the finger is not a whole baby! the fetus IS a whole baby but it is just SMALLER! I think THAT is where the dividing line is! edit: how do YOU know the fetus hasn't gained consiusness yet? for all you know it could be thinking in the womb! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Originally posted by ET Warrior hmm, 7 months pregnant. certainly it seems to me that everyone in here who has advocated abortion has said specifically it is only agreeable before the third month....which is 4 months sooner than you were born...so that little story of yours had NO relevance to the discussion. Sorry ,I thought you guys were all okay for it after the 3rd month ,my bad . So you guys would be okay if abortion were illegal after the 3rd month ? Just wanted to clarify ,thats all . God Bless, Reelguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Originally posted by Spider AL Quite, but hardly surprising, since fundamentalist religious beliefs are inherently irrelevant too. What is that supposed to mean ? First of all Im a Catholic ,not a fundamenatlist ,and second of all stop telling me I put words in your mouth when you just did the same to me .You just said I was a fundamentalist ,when you didnt even know what religion I was for sure ,dont assume . God Bless, Reelguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 First of all Im a Catholic ,not a fundamenatlist You could call yourself a sikh for all I care, your beliefs are still fundamentalist in nature. Your sig proclaimed this, showing that you are religiously opposed to both gay marriage and abortion. And I quote: "It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to gay marriage and abortion."I myself am opposed to gay marriage, but for purely secular, practical and logical reasons. You on the other hand have only religious reasons for your beliefs, and secular reasoning (logic) has no place in your world. This makes you religiously fundamentalist. and second of all stop telling me I put words in your mouth when you just did the same to me .You just said I was a fundamentalist ,when you didnt even know what religion I was for sure ,dont assume .Sigh. Calling someone something, is not "putting words in their mouth". Putting words in someone's mouth is saying that they've said something that they haven't. Everything I've quoted from you, you have typed in. It's all your own fault. Don't blame me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 There is no doubt that a fetus at the very beginning of development cannot be logically seen as more than a bunch of cells clumped together - and certainly not 'human' in any meaningful way... ...this not only affects the issue of abortion, but also stem cell research. (An issue I think is treated with the most astonishing flipancy by evangelical America...) But there is also no denying that terminating a fetus is destroying the 'potential' of a life. That is not a statement intended to nessearily give amunition to one side against the other (although I'm sure it will be taken that way). It's just stating a cold hard fact. (I know there is a whole sub-argument about drawing parallels between abortion and - say - contaception, but I dont' really buy it. If this is contested, I'll happily talk through my reasoning) Combine with this the fact that the rights of both the 'potential' life AND the mother BOTH matter equally, and I am left with the opinion that abortion is never the RIGHT answer, but there are some situations where there IS no right answer... ...once this is accepted, then the need for abortion as - at the very least - an avaliable option in very particular circumstances is realised I myself believe that abortions have become too common in modern times. It is now an option which is too quick and too easy to take. I think in many cases the life of the baby should be given the utmost priority - certainly more priority than it is often given ...however, anybody who states 'Abortion is wrong - period - in any circumstance' and then tells this to a woman who has been informed her pregnancy has a good chance of ending up with not just the death of the baby, but herself too - well ... let's just say you've demonstrated the failings of looking at the world in a dumbed down 'black and white' fashion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 It's an option but certainly not an easy one. If the religious right would just teach their kids how to use frigging condoms and other contraceptive, we wouldn't have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 If the religious right would just teach their kids how to use frigging condoms and other contraceptive, we wouldn't have a problem.Sadly, though education would help the problem, I've known girls from quite liberal, well-informed backgrounds who have gotten themselves preggers. Silly, silly girls. There's no cure for silliness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 I agree though condemning contraceptives doesn't help. That's the main reason IMO for the AIDS problem in Africa and probably all the pregnancy also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Originally posted by Spider AL What you believe is that a zygote has a soul. An egg that's just been zonked by a sperm, has a soul. Right? Right. You just put words in my mouth right there . I never mentioned a soul ,yet you said that I believed that the zygote has a soul. That right there is putting words in my mouth . I never mentioned it but you say that I believe it . Im just curious ,are you an atheist spider ? no offense ,Im just curious . God Bless, Reelguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 You just put words in my mouth right there . I never mentioned a soul This is becoming tiresome. Use the proper words with the correct definitions to convey your meaning. I never said you mentioned a soul. I said you didn't HAVE to mention it. I ACCUSED you. I did not put words in your mouth. Im just curious ,are you an atheist spider ? no offense ,Im just curious . Haha. In old threads and old posts I have defined my "spiritual status" to a nicety. I feel no need to wheel out my unique perspective on spirituality once more for your benefit. Go and look it up if you're genuinely curious. Frankly your persistent lack of comprehension in any respect is becoming much too grating for me to feel inclined to assist you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 What are you talking about ,Ive stopped debating on all of the other threads in the senate chambers except for this one ,so I dont know what your religious background is ,Im sorry ,what does it have to do with comprehension . Have I ever looked down on you like you have me ,its getting tiring how you speak speak of me with all these terms like ,"lack of comprehension" for instance . As if accusing is any better than putting words in someones mouth ? God Bless, Reelguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Originally posted by kipperthefrog tearing off the leaf of a plant wont kill the plant!, but removing the SEED of a plant would destroy the BABY plant inside it, killing the baby plant! actually certain plants can die from 1 leaf being removed unnaturally. And a single seed carries multiple "possible" plants, not just one. sorry had to correct you <_< Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk I myself believe that abortions have become too common in modern times. It is now an option which is too quick and too easy to take. actually they aren't all that common as people think. And they aren't too simple, abortions can cost up to multiple thousands of dollars. :x Originally posted by reelguy227 First of all Im a Catholic ,not a fundamenatlist one can be catholic and fundamentalist at the same time, considering fundamentalism is taking a belief to extremes. You alone have demonstrated this in your signature by spouting a very common fundamentalist phrase I have only ever heard uttered by fundamentalist people. Originally posted by reelguy227 So you guys would be okay if abortion were illegal after the 3rd month ? yes, but only if there were exceptions to this law, such as if the birth of the child could cause severe harm or death to the mother, or if the quality of life of the child is poor. Then best interest dictates abortion, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 What are you talking about ,Ive stopped debating on all of the other threads in the senate chambers except for this one ,so I dont know what your religious background is ,Im sorry ,what does it have to do with comprehension . What it has to do with comprehension, is that you obviously didn't comprehend the post you're replying to. Please read it again. Have I ever looked down on you like you have meHave you ever had cause to? Nope. As if accusing is any better than putting words in someones mouth ? Finally you admit your error and imply that you agree that I have not attempted to put words in your mouth. You on the other hand, have attempted to twist mine on at least one occasion. Shame on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Originally posted by InsaneSith one can be catholic and fundamentalist at the same time, considering fundamentalism is taking a belief to extremes. You alone have demonstrated this in your signature by spouting a very common fundamentalist phrase I have only ever heard uttered by fundamentalist people. sadly. No im not being fundamentalist or radicalist ,Im just being proud of my beliefs and carrying Christs mission on . Just clarifying that with you God Bless, Reelguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 No im not being fundamentalist or radicalist ,Im just being proud of my beliefs and carrying Christs mission on . Just clarifying that with you You don't think you have to have any logical argument at all, do you. You fit the definition of fundamentalist. You cannot dispute this, you've proven it a dozen times over. And in response, you just sit there and spout groundless dogma over and over and over, further proving your fundamentalism. I feel for you, you will never know the joy of winning a debate because your case was the stronger. And yeah, Christ specifically told you to oppose Abortion in the year 2004, and to fight against gay marriage, which was such an issue during his lifetime. You're carrying on the CHURCH's mission. Christ would be spinning in his celestial grave, if he hadn't risen from it already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Originally posted by Spider AL I feel no need to wheel out my unique perspective on spirituality once more for your benefit. Right there you said "once more " ,as if you said it in any other debates . You are extremely concieted when it comes to downplaying others and thinking of yourself as higher than others ,I can tell this just by the way you have acted towards me . Ill pray for you ,you seem very angry when it comes to people like me ,who dont agree with your views . God Bless and Pax Christi , Reelguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Right there you said "once more " ,as if you said it in any other debates I did explain it in other debates. That's the point. That's what you're not getting. You are extremely concieted You're the conceited one. You are conceited in your beliefs, which you do not question nor apply reason to. You are conceited in your psychological comfort, and simply ignore anything that could rock your boat-o'-fundamentalism. Ill pray for youCheers, every little helps. Could you pray for me to get washed up on a desert island inhabited by a purely female tribe of ex-swimwear models desperate for procreative activity, please? PLEASE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Originally posted by Spider AL And yeah, Christ specifically told you to oppose Abortion in the year 2004, and to fight against gay marriage, which was such an issue during his lifetime. You're carrying on the CHURCH's mission. Christ would be spinning in his celestial grave, if he hadn't risen from it already... Yes Christ does specifically tell me these things ,He tells me them through His Church, they carry on His mission .They are the instrument through which he speaks to the people after leaving this world ,they are against abortion and gay marriage ,so I know He is because they interpret His message. God Bless and Pax Christi , Reelguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Originally posted by reelguy227 No im not being fundamentalist or radicalist ,Im just being proud of my beliefs and carrying Christs mission on . last I checked jesus didn't go around spouting BS and bigotry, inciting violence. Instead Jesus taught to love unconditionally because while people may be evil there is still beauty within the soul. Remember, Turn the other cheek. Jesus didn't go after every little thing that bothered him. He didn't "convert" people and impose his beliefs and his fathers will on people, he allowed them to volunteer their love and devotion to him and his father. Personally I think Jesus would disapprove of this banning gay marriage and abortion clinic bombing, Jesus tought to love one because of their impurity. It's why he asked his father to forgive us when we crucified him, remember? "do not hate them father, for they know not what they have done." and such as that. I can respect you being proud of your religion, but what you're proud of is the bastardizing of that beautiful ideal, and turning it into an exclusionary cult of hatred and bigotry towards those that are different, and taking it upon yourself to condemn those that don't do as you do. Originally posted by reelguy227 You are extremely concieted when it comes to downplaying others and thinking of yourself as higher than others you too. You spout about how you follow christs path but all you do is exclude those that don't share the same ideal as you. Spider has been trying to get through to you and the people like you, but to no avail, of course he's going to grow tired of constantly saying and explaining his views and beliefs. You don't listen the first, second, or third time. Why should he repeat himself again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.