JA vs. JK2 update (no flames please!)

[Kurgan]

Yeah, but (grabs 'JA Apologists Handbook, 4th Edition'), RTCW doesn't have Star Wars, does it?*

 

I rest my case!

 

 

 

* I was going to say it doesn't have cool sci fi futuristic stuff, but then you could argue UT2k4's Onslaught & Assault blow it away. ; )

 

Update (Monday, Aug 30th): Not to beat a dead horse, but JA has basically double the players of JK2 as of 4:40 pm CST!)

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by Ace-_Ventura

i would still prefer jk2

 

But you should ask yourself WHY you would prefer it?

 

Because your first experience was with JK2, you latched onto that as "normal" and so JA, which deviated from the "norm" was thus "not as good." Or perhaps not. Perhaps you would play JA first, then play JK2 and conclude that JK2 was superior. It's all a matter of taste really. My point was that the sheer features that are gained between the two games would cause an uproar if the scenario of first JA then JK2 was followed. The general public, mod makers and reviewers would pounce on those issues at once!

 

As it is, comparing them, JK2 feels "stripped down" from JA. The JK2 apologists would say that the JA additions (to the saber behavior) were "unnecessary." But the rest of the stuff isn't just fluff, it's the heart of the game. It's like these folks are really saying that JA should never have been made. Not to put words into their mouth, but it's as if JK2 simply can't be improved upon... at least Raven can't be trusted to improve their own product (not that a sequel is guarenteed to be an improvement, it may just be a continuation). Maybe I'm stretching it too far?

 

Again, not to beat a dead horse...

[Master William]

Originally posted by Kurgan

And at the height of its popularity JA surely had more than that too

 

Actually, no... not at all... I was playing JA a lot when it was at "its height". Sure there were more servers than now, but I'm just saying that JA has never been as popular as JK2 was. Not to mention the honour stuff ruined the games a lot...

[iamtrip]

Originally posted by Kurgan

As it is, comparing them, JK2 feels "stripped down" from JA. The JK2 apologists would say that the JA additions (to the saber behavior) were "unnecessary." But the rest of the stuff isn't just fluff, it's the heart of the game. It's like these folks are really saying that JA should never have been made. Not to put words into their mouth, but it's as if JK2 simply can't be improved upon... at least Raven can't be trusted to improve their own product (not that a sequel is guarenteed to be an improvement, it may just be a continuation). Maybe I'm stretching it too far?

 

Again, not to beat a dead horse...

 

 

I'm not sure that therew as much added to saber combat in terms of gameplay (ie. actually being useful).

If two reasonably good duelists play, katas or super flying double flipkick combos are a rarity.

Even so, I'm sure many JK2'ers would have been happy for the additions made to saber combat to be added to jk2. This was possible. There was even a JK2 mod that gave you double sabers/staff. The only additions that couldn't already be found in a modded JK2 were katas, butterfly things etc. and based on JK:A's saber combat being a complete copy of JK2 combat i(in terms of code), I'm sure it was very possible for JK2 to be adapted.

 

 

 

The reason noone liked JA, besides it being dumbed down, was that the hit detection sucked and the damage scales were ludicrous. Jk2 people mioved from a game where pull throw was a common attack (30hp). In JK:A you could pull throw with the same amount of force usage and take up to 80hp.

Now if you know anything about how to pull throw, you'll realise how pointless that would make a ff duel.

 

.....Ok, lets nf duel. An arena where some random butterfly might scrape your toe and take 90 hp, whilst a direct Red stace hit (yes, this has happened) has taken about 40 hp.

 

 

So besides dumbing the game down to become more accessable to 'new' players, JK:A also had a ridiculous collision detection/damage system. I don't know whether this was to 'even' the playing field, so the better players wouldn't consistently win, but it sure meant competetive play was pointless. And what's becoming noticable now (although none of you agreeed post-launch) is that no non-competetive community can thrive without a thriving competetive community.

 

So why didn't they just mod JK2, add new stuff and not completely nerf the damage system?

Well one reason would be graphics; Developers seem to think superior graphics is an equal or more important factor than good gameplay. Sure it is to some hardcore star wars fans, 'movie' creators and RPG'ers, but to competetive players who would undoubtedly tweak their cfg to get max frame rate, excellent graphics fall down to the bottom of the list.

 

Secondly, many people had 'bad memories' of consistently being beaten by better players in JK2, thus might think they wouldn't stand much chance in a sequel.

 

 

Just my opinion why noone plays JA competetively/the game is dead.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong too, but you guys loved the game back then, because that was before flip kicks were removed.

 

I don't think anyone loved it, a lot of people said that it looked 'noobish' at the time. It just showed some promise thats all.

[Toa Tahu]

An arena where some random butterfly might scrape your toe and take 90 hp, whilst a direct Red stace hit (yes, this has happened) has taken about 40 hp.

also had a ridiculous collision detection/damage system.

Quite true.The same happened with JO to me.

 

the hit detection sucked and the damage scales were ludicrous.

Agreed.A lightsabre,regardless of stance or quantity,should only strike a constant magnitude of damage(unless its intensity has been increased).In fact,lightsabres are supposedly one-shot-kills,and this is one factor that a Jedi Knight game developer cannot,or may not be able to implement in its Multiplayer segment.

 

The reason noone liked JA, besides it being dumbed down

How?I mean,why do you say dumbed down?

 

so the better players wouldn't consistently win

Most of the time better players should win,but as we all know,the world is round.Sometimes(be it a fluke shot(in real life,not by our famously ridiculous hit-detection system) or not) weaker players should be able to win some stronger adversaries(like how Obi-Wan managed to destroy Darth Maul in you-know-where)Besides,having the weaker ones win once in a while will motivate them to go for the big boys(and keep on playing at least for that 5 minutes more)

 

Just my 2 cents' worth.

[Ace-_Ventura]

JK2 is for 1 of the best games i ever played, just let's see.. good maps, good gameplay. on jk2 if you want to win you need to know how to play, the same doesn't happen on jka. what's the fun about that?

[Alegis]

JA has got better graphics and saber system..and the maps were better

 

After i payed JA for a long time i went to a JO "FFA-Duel" server and i left after the first one, was too bugged. you can claim JA has got katas, but JO has these "rotation moves" in air that look ridiculous and are, plain put, bugs.

 

They didn't change THAT much of JO, but you can feel the difference and its better

[Prime]

Originally posted by Master William

but I'm just saying that JA has never been as popular as JK2 was.

In regards to MP perhaps. But with the server bug, who knows how much damage that really caused in terms of number of MP players. Also, JO came out years after JK and was a brand new system. JA didn't come into the same situation.

 

Originally posted by iamtrip

so the better players wouldn't consistently win

Almost sounds like real sports.

 

Originally posted by iamtrip

Developers seem to think superior graphics is an equal or more important factor than good gameplay. Sure it is to some hardcore star wars fans, 'movie' creators and RPG'ers.

Which is probably 80% of the customer base, which Raven catered to. So in that sense, the developers were right.

 

Originally posted by iamtrip

but to competetive players who would undoubtedly tweak their cfg to get max frame rate, excellent graphics fall down to the bottom of the list.

Fair enough. But are there enough competative players who will buy the game to offset the number of casual gamers and SW fans that want the "bells and whistles?" It seems to me that Raven chose their target audience and made the game with that group in mind. Unfortunately for competative players, they weren't the audience they chose. I always wondered whether that decision had to do with all the belly aching that occured during JO. Who knows?

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Prime

Fair enough. But are there enough competative players who will buy the game to offset the number of casual gamers and SW fans that want the "bells and whistles?" It seems to me that Raven chose their target audience and made the game with that group in mind. Unfortunately for competative players, they weren't the audience they chose. I always wondered whether that decision had to do with all the belly aching that occured during JO. Who knows?

I see that as a very important point. Some deride JKII & JA as being 'inferior' because pros don't play. Oh well, for the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the games mainly for SP, it apparently was not so inferior.

 

I think Raven - and LucasArts - learned something during JKII. Perhaps it was that the most vocal MP audience consisted of fickle, transient 13-year olds taking a quick break from their immature rants in CS to complain that JKII wasn't 1337 'nuff for their sk1llz. Perhaps it was that most people bought the game for SP, but there is a decent sized MP audience worth supporting, and that the most loyal of that audience was split between RP-ers and casual gamers who want 'traditional' MP games (I include Siege here) in a SW setting, and that both were important and yet impossible to either separate or co-exist.

 

Who knows ... I just beat KotOR again, going back to another play through JA - and loving it!

 

Mike

[Alegis]

Reminds me, i can crash any JO FFA server (should work on other gametypes i think) with guns on in Jedi Outcast. I need a friend to help me with it however

 

shows you how buggy it is

[iamtrip]

I'm bored of this arguement. Some of you are too deadset in your idea that JA was released third so is 'the best yet'.

 

Where is the audience rivalling JK2's massive audience (when in its prime)?

JA is struggling to keep up with a 3 year old game.

 

I played baseJK2 for around a year after jk2 release. XMOD for jk2 was the only competetive mod taken seriously. There were few, if any bugs in it, and there was definately no gameplay altering bugs.

This isn't about 'OMFGZ I CAN CRASH A SERVER'. Please. The only relevence of 'bugs' to this arguement are those which effect gameplay. In Xmod there were few/none and I don't remember a basejk2 where collision and damage scales were as screwed as those in JA.

 

In JA, you can join any server and find a kata does a random amount of damage after it scapes past and a direct hit might not damage at all.

 

 

Thirdly, you speak of 'rotation moves'. Are these windmill attacks? They actually required timing and around 4-5 button combo. The hardest move to pull off in JA is pressing two buttons at a time? The learning curve in JK2 was far steeper, I agree, meaning theres something to 'aim for' in terms of competetiveness.

 

I miss the point about the JK2 mp community. They tell lucas arts what theyw ant, lucas arts releases 3 patches...

I'm sure lucas/raven would have released 3 patches for JK:A...if there was the community there to ask for them.

[Ace-_Ventura]

ja with better saber system and better maps? are you drunk?

[Lathain Valtiel]

Personally, I agree that the katas should be utterly annihilated and sent straight to digital hell.... In fact, I'd enjoy seeing that fate on all specials, yes, even lunge.

 

The butterfly vs. red stance argument is almost totally valid in regards to saber system debates, though I'm more annoyed with the air backflip on staff, as it's almost a perfect escape after screwing up almost anything, and said escape can actually deal 40 damage plus with no penalty except meager force usage.

 

That said... Windmill attacks are also awfully idiotic, if by that one means spinning like a top after a swing.

 

Honestly though, JA is 'mostly' the better game. Though I would like it so much better if they at least rebalanced the staff and dual sabers... The skill to kill difference on those things is ridiculous... I still can't believe the first time I ever pulled out a dual on Chop Shop I won handily.

[Druid_Allanon]

One of the things I don't like about JA was the removal of flipkick. Back in JO, ff dueling was spiced up with flipkick, hence nf dueling wasn't the only dominant one. However, with the arrival of non-flipkick JA, nf dueling has become like the only competitive gameplay. If you were to ff duel in basejka now, it'd all be about doing saber pull throw and healing. How boring.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by iamtrip

Some of you are too deadset in your idea that JA was released third so is 'the best yet'.

Actually those are two different sentiments - one that it is best since it is the latest, the other that it is the best because it is the best.

Originally posted by iamtrip

I'm bored of this arguement.

But what *is* the argument? What is the point?

 

If you are contending that the quality of a game which offers a SP focus and a rich MP experience is based wholly on how many people play the MP side, then you (in the general sense) are stupid and wrong. If you are contending that you don't like JA's MP experience and find it inferior to JKII, and point to the server numbers as evidence that many also share that opinion, then you have an opinion, and a point, although many have presented mitigating factors as to why the numbers are what they are.

 

Personally, I like a game based on my opinion. Sounds obvious, but I've noticed that in many instances - here in particular - the prevalence of an adolescent need to justify the love or hate of a game by beating on others until they see it your way.

 

I loved JKII - it was my favorite game ever for a while (and I'm in my late 30's and have been a heavy PC gamer for >20 years!). When JA came along, it delivered much of what I was looking for ... and I just loved the (albeit flawed) experience.

 

Mike

[iamtrip]

Originally posted by txa1265

although many have presented mitigating factors as to why the numbers are what they are.

 

Where?

 

I don't see any mitigating factors that explain why JA server and player numbers struggle to compete with an aged JK2.

 

There is of course one point mentioned. If you're suggesting a 'server bug', do you really think that if people loved a game they would leave after not finding a server?

Surely they would investigate and find out about the bug, or merely wait/play on the servers that they can see?

 

 

I don't recognise any other reasons, besides a poor collision detection, a 'dumbing' down of attacks (in terms of complexity in pulling them off, in terms of dumbing down forces, such as showing abosrb usage, removal of out of los gripping, removal of close range pt and removal of kick, to mention but a few), as well as the removal of a deadset damage system, rather than a seemingly random calculation (stemming from poor collision detection).

These are the reasons why JA server and player numbers are so low.

If you would have referred to these mitigating factors, then naturally, I would agree with you.

 

 

And finally, the argument I am tried of is the reitteration of these changes, which caused the dramatic drop in player numbers when compared to a successful JK2 when in its prime.

If of course you could suggest other reason...any other reasons, perhaps you' would add validity to your point.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by Rumor

would you guys just drop it already?

 

READ, UNDERSTAND, PRACTICE, AND STFU.

[g//anarki]

i think we should bring this to the jedi council lololol

 

/bow

[Kurgan]

If you want to blame this thread on someone, blame it on me, I started it! But I figured I'd try to bring some substance to the debate, rather than just spit forth my opinion and curse everyone who disagrees (as has unfortunately happened in the past with certain people in these debates).

...

 

Basically we have people arguing that JK2 takes more skill because we have people using Flipkicks, DFA's and backstabs.

 

And this is considered more skillfull than using Katas, butterflys or twirls.

 

While this probably makes a ton of sense to those making the argument, to me it just sounds like we're substituting one set of "uber" moves for another and saying our way is good, but the other is for "n00bs."

 

Is it really better and more skillful, or just different?

 

And I've often argued that even if this is so (what the JK2 players claim) this doesn't begin to answer the fact that neither game is just about saber dueling, even if that's all some people ever play.

 

How do we measure the popularity of JA vs. JK2? If we measure it by number of servers and number of online players then JA wins.

 

Then we have people backtracking and saying that JA has to win by a huge margin in terms of servers? Or something? By how much should JA be winning? Should it have 84,000+ players like Half Life? Should it have 500,000+ subscribers like EverQuest? What? Again, the purpose of the numbers was to show that for some reason, there are more people playing JA online NOW than there are playing JK2 online NOW. Doesn't this detract from the long-time assertion by some people that JK2 is so clearly superior and more popular (a tautalogy emerges.... JK2 is better because it's more popular, it's more popular because it's better...etc).

 

I'm not saying that alone makes it a better game, but as to popularity, well... numbers man, numbers. And saying that all the JA players must be RPG players standing around chatting and emoting doesn't hold water. There are just as many admin mods (in fact more and for a longer time) in JK2 as there are in JA, so there's just as great a chance (if not more) that all those JK2 players are just "standing around and chatting and emoting" instead of competing.

 

I agree, the server bug did hurt JA quite a bit, but the patch is out now, and the majority of players are using that.

 

With JK2 you also have the issue of the patches. Many were furious when 1.03 came out and either quit the game or refused to update. That divided the community. Likewise with 1.04. So you now have a large number of people using each of the different patches (although 1.04 has the majority).

 

So while the server browser bug was devestating to JA, the patches for JK2 caused a lot of problems there as well. Just think back... JK2 wasn't quite as rosey as some people are acting like, compared to what JA was. They both had their problems.

 

Sides, just a nitpick but it can easily be argued that some of those things like the "out of line of site grip effect" were actually BUGS in the game and uintended. The fact that some people liked them and used these exploits to their advantage in strategy changes nothing. Obviously Raven didn't fix every bug and exploit that was in JK2, but they did fix some of them. They seem to have determined that flipkicks were also no longer necessary for the type of battles they wanted. That this removed several "combos" is too bad for those who liked them yes, but, oh well...

 

In the end yes, I agree that it's based on personal preference. You can like a game and play it even if you are the only person in the world doing so and that's fine, because it's what you like to do. Likewise you can like and play a popular game if you want to, and that doesn't automatically make you a "sheep" or something else, since you may have your own reasons for liking it other than being with the "in" group. And there's always the possibility of playing or liking BOTH of two "competing" games.

 

JK2 and JA are only considered "competing" really because they are so similar. But, as we all know, there are subtle differences. For me the pros outweigh the cons enough in JA's favor that I prefer to spend my time playing that game. I don't demand that others do the same, only that they recognize that I may have reasons for liking it other than that I must be an idiot, an RPG player or a "n00b" or something like that. ; )

 

If a person likes JK2 better than JA, that's fine too. I don't have a problem with that. Only the attitude that they must be above the rest of us because of it.

[Spider AL]

This thread and in fact, every thread dealing with the subject in question, merely shows that I and others of a similar mind to myself were right to stop playing the JK series online. Frankly, returning to these forums to see the same immature bickering over trivia continuing unabated after a large chunk of time, both saddens and sickens in equal measure.

 

Games are games. Back in my day, one played the games one enjoyed and enjoyed playing those games. One did not try to alter games one didn't enjoy to make them more enjoyable for one, nor did one sit around whining about the reasons why one disliked those games. Thus, games of merit, like JK, found their own audience and survived for a reasonable amount of time before fading away into near-oblivion as their natural life-course was run. This is the way the gaming world should be, again.

 

Let's be totally honest with each other. One would have to be a complete mung bean to expend any emotional fuel debating over which game was better, JO or JA. If you like JO, play it. If you think too few people play it, publicise it. Organise tournaments, get your friends involved... but be prepared for it to die out. Like a pet, a game provides comfort and unconditional attention... but it eventually croaks, no matter how much you patch it up.

 

Be like Kurgan. Be mature. Be respectful of others. Or perhaps I'm asking too much.

 

I have a jolly idea. Let's create a "choose your own adventure" version of the JK online community.

 

------

You stand in a locked room. A computer terminal blinks accusingly at you from one corner of the room. It appears to be logged into something called "Lucasforums"... You feel an uncontrollable urge to type something.

 

If you type:

 

A: "The game's dead" - turn to page 6.

B: "The game's dead because of 'x' gametype" - turn to page 204.

C: "The game's dead because it sucks" - turn to page 3.

D: "The game's dead because Raven sucks" - turn to page 29.

E: "The game's dead because YOU suck" - turn to page 10.

------

 

I think it'll sell great. Judging by most contemporary game forums in addition to this one, there's a big demand for such an absorbing adventure.

[FlashRam]

Clearly moves like speed-rage DFA, grip kick, pull throw kick, pull kick, while being easy to learn, were considerably difficult to truly master. This added depth to basejk2 that basejka just can't come close to rivaling. The hardest move in basejka is pressing two buttons at the same time. This move can be mastered in around 10 minutes by even the worst gamer.

 

Flat out, JKA is indeed a dumbed down version of jk2, catering to fan boys over gamers who want an interesting and challenging experience where they are rewarded for taking the time to practice and master skills.

 

JK2 was a brilliant game. Speed Rage DFA is the ultimate example. In all the time that the game was released, and the countless amount of people who actually attempted to master this skill, only a small handful ever truly reached the highest levels of ability at it. The cap for jk2 skill was never reached, players still in the game are still improving considerably as the months go by. This is when you know a game has depth. 3 years after the release of the game the roof of skill has still not come close to being reached. The seperation between an unexperienced player and a vet is extremely large. JKA is not like this. A complete and utter newbie can reach a level to compete with the most experienced players in a very short time.

 

I guess it depends on what you are looking for out of a game. If you simply want to be emersed in the star wars universe and pretend to be Darth Maul, JKA is the superior game. If you want an interesting game with extreme replayability and depth, JK2 is vastly superior on every level. That includes saber only no force dueling. The hit detection in jka is so bad, and the damage so absurdly random, that any hope of taking it seriously from a competitive standpoint is impossible.

[Alegis]

JA has katas, JO has gripkicks. Last one isnt even supposed to be a feature

[iamtrip]

This added depth to basejk2 that basejka just can't come close to rivaling. The hardest move in basejka is pressing two buttons at the same time. This move can be mastered in around 10 minutes by even the worst gamer.

 

Did you not read his post Algeis?

 

Nubs can't kick/gripkick (at least not until after a while practicing/if ever), but they can kata after 5 minutes (4 1/2 of those minutes spent reading the manual).

 

There is no skill to a kata. You press 2 buttons and watch the pretty animation.

To gripkick, you need to press about 5 buttons, do it quickly, avoid push/pulls, move around and get out before they counter.

 

Once you've 'mastered' basejka, thats it. Theres nowhere else to go, nothing else to learn. What is there to keep practing, to get better at? The hardest move is a 2 button combo, (and thats just an automated animation).

 

Really...

[_PerfectAgent_]

Katas are near useless. In a guns game, prepare to be shot. In saber only, prepare to be lunged, pushed, or have a saber thrown at you.

[Rumor]

Just drop it already, FFS.

 

If you like JA, thats fine, nobody cares.

 

If you like JO, thats fine, nobody cares.

 

The argument about JO being superior in competitive gameplay was finished the moment JA hit the shelves. JO is by far better. JA is for fan boys, plain and simple.

 

THERE. END OF DISCUSSION SO JUST STFU ABOUT THIS DEBATE THAT WAS SETTLED A YEAR AGO.