Mike Windu Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 We did not need to waste precious manpower and lives going after a man who poses no threat to us. Bush needed a scapegoat. Why? a year in Afganistan and no Osama caught, hmm... I know... let's go after Saddam, who's not really doing anything of importance, and reignite something that should have ended years ago when my father was the president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Groovy Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by Tyrion And we know that every war the government will send us to, is because the enemy hates us... Good point. I would also like to point out that once you join the military, you are no longer required to think, you are no longer allowed to give opinions. The quite literally belong to the Government. That means every fiber of your being. I know this because I pissed away 5 years of my life in the United States Navy. Once, I actually had a Warant Officer tell me that I could be court martialed for "defacing Government property". Know what I did? I got a tattoo. First I thought he was joking with me, but he turned out to be as serious as a heart attack. Eventually he just left me alone. I suppose had I got a tattoo of a ship's anchor or "GO NAVY", or some hokey crap like that, he's have looked the other way....but I got something that I wanted instead. Being in the Navy, I was not allowed to vote, because my address was a ship. It's TRUE!!! So if you don't like to think, and you don't have opinions, your on your way to a fantastic career in the military. One final note, when you are in the military, the Government decides who your enemy is....not you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcd1234 Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn TERRORISTS attacked us. We are getting rid of TERRORISTS. War on TERROR. A war on terror that Bush just said he doesn't think we can win. Just like Mike said, Bush needed something to try and take the public mind off of the lack of success in finding Osama and now we are in Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Link to President Bush's comments about our lack of ability to win the war on terror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 See... I've been saying it all along. Bush is a loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by SkinWalker See... I've been saying it all along. Bush is a loser. and a sore one at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 The old testament, containing the 10 commandments, from which you are quoting, was written in 'Greek'. New Testament writers wrote in Greek, but spoke Aramaic, many words in these languages have more than 1 meaning, love for example, has 3 meanings in Greek "Eros, phileo, or agape" "Eros" means "romantic love", the root word for "erotic" "Phileo" something along the lines of loving someone as a friend "Agape" means "love for God", a love you may have for a religion, or higher power. Our language is not very advanced IMO, so we break words down, and sadly, in many cases, lose the meanings or the depth. Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill." “Kill” is also a word that has more than 1 meaning, MURDER is to take ones life without reason or regard... an entirely different matter to kill someone in battle. Some translations read “kill” others read “murder” but the intended meaning was murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by ZDawg but the intended meaning was murder. And God himself has told you this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 There were two sets of commandments. Moses broke the first lot in a rage, god made a second (and slightly different) lot. There are no importances on them, so who knows if they are meant to be equal or not.... Several christian religions set tehm out differently. http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm one for that other thread: 3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn. 4. All the first-born are mine. 6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end. 7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread. 8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning. 10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk. Zdawg is right about the transations and "kill" vs "murder".: "You shall not murder" - The Hebrew Bible makes a distinction between murdering and killing, and explicitly notes that murder is always a heinous sin, while killing is sometimes necessary, and in these cases just in the eyes of God. Thus, Jews take offense at translations which state "Thou shall not kill", which Jews hold to be immoral. Many Protestant and most Catholic Christians hold that this verse forbids abortion; Judaism disagrees. wikipedia However i doubt this will comfort yaebginn much as he is pro killing (but not murder) but anti abortion. (odd, but common). However, of course, the 10 commandments are pre-jesus and he did add some clarification. HE was explicit that one should try to love one's enemy, he did not support the use of force. The problem with joining the army (for a christian) would be that one would loose one's right to choose whether a particular death would be "killing" or "murder". One would just have to follow orders. Of course, if you assume that any orders given by your superiors are just and right and good then you would be ok... but i bet the poor guys on the other side would feel the same thing... so either god is supporting both sides, or one side is in for dissappointment whent hey get judged. Under these rules i can understand a christian being willing to fight to defend their homes, or to save others... but i can't see that christians should be rushing to join the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by ET Warrior And God himself has told you this? If there is one thing I never do, its open my mouth if I dont know what Im talking about. The original Greek textbooks show that the original word used, was the Greek word for murder Originally posted by toms However, of course, the 10 commandments are pre-jesus and he did add some clarification. HE was explicit that one should try to love one's enemy, he did not support the use of force. The problem with joining the army (for a christian) would be that one would loose one's right to choose whether a particular death would be "killing" or "murder". One would just have to follow orders. Of course, if you assume that any orders given by your superiors are just and right and good then you would be ok... but i bet the poor guys on the other side would feel the same thing... so either god is supporting both sides, or one side is in for dissappointment whent hey get judged. Under these rules i can understand a christian being willing to fight to defend their homes, or to save others... but i can't see that christians should be rushing to join the army. The bible also says to obey the laws of the land (I.E Government). Take it how you choose, but fighting for you country seems to fall into that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 And yet Jesus told you to love your enemy. And you don't shoot and kill somebody that you love, so there seems to be a paradox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiroki Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 That is because Yeab is not Jesus, by a long shot...but we knew that already, didn't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tFighterPilot Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by ET Warrior Saddam was not a TERRORIST, ergo, he is absolutely unrelated to the war on TERROR. I agree with you on most of the things, and I think Yaeb is as stupid as can be, but that statement has been proved false. Saddam has been funding terror attacks. But that doesn't make the rest of the Iraqies "Bad people", a term that was made by an american general, don't remember his name. Bush is an idiot, removed flame/insult Please refrain from insulting LF members. Feel free to bash Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by Hiroki That is because Yeab is not Jesus, by a long shot...but we knew that already, didn't we? true, but the point of christianity is to be christ like and follow christ's example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by ET Warrior And yet Jesus told you to love your enemy. And you don't shoot and kill somebody that you love, so there seems to be a paradox. Love your enemy as yourself... how many times have you been mad, angry, even suicidal to yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckcsaber Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by InsaneSith true, but the point of christianity is to be christ like and follow christ's example Yes, but we all fall short. This isn't justifying the fact for killing another human being in any way, but people have feelings/emotions/pride etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 I know, but I'm just saying he can't use humanity as an excuse for not trying. I realize noone is perfect, but you gotta try Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 g2g to work, so Icant address all the issues right quick. thanx to those who are on my side and such to make my job eaiser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 I cleaned this thread up (mostly page 2) and re-opened it. The topic is Thou Shalt Not Kill? Please stick to it and avoid ad hominem remarks (a.k.a. flames). I for one, found the discussion regarding the ancient Greek translations to be fascinating and it is sad to see a few members become juvenile and trite to the point of flaming with serious discussions like this going on in a thread. Those that participated should each be a shamed. --SkinWalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tFighterPilot Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Good work SkinWalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 ooohh! by the time i get here Skin has always cleaned up the mess... I was interested to find the original translations and the fact there were two sets as well. There is often more than meets the eye when you dig around in these things. I'm not so sure about the "obey the law of the land" though, as jesus himself wasn't a bit averse to breaking the law. The law in nazi germany (for example) wouldn't be very christian to obey. I understand that the bible is basically trying to stop you going around murdering people, while giving you the freedom to defend yourself and protect people. however, when it came down to it, jesus wasn't willing to hurt or kill ANYONE no matter what they did to him. While we can't all be as saintly (?) as jesus, i'd think most people would want to at least try. One easy step for a christian towards this goal would be to not get a job that includes carrying a gun and fighting as it's main goals. Ok, if you are directly attacked, or your country invaded, or whatever then you would be free to defend yourself (even if jesus might not) but revenge attacks, maximum force and preemptive strikes would seem to be out of the question. I guess it is possible to justify almost anything as allowed by your religion if you try (crusades, islamic terrorism, inquisition, etc..) but just because something is possibly allowed by the small print doesn't mean you should go after it wholeheartedly when it is patently against the overall message of the religion. Early christians were willing to be persecuted and tortured, but unwilling to fight back (we are told), some modern christians seem almost EAGER to find a loophole to allow them to get around the "no killing" rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted September 1, 2004 Author Share Posted September 1, 2004 toms, there is no 'no killing' rule. where did you get that? Murder is different than killing. The main reason I want to join the military is the training. its free training, it pays for college. I mean, its a good deal. IMO, if the rules of the goverment contradict God's word, you dont do it, but if it doesnt contradict it, its free game. Thats my opinion. skin- do you have AIM or email? I'd like to discuss your last post in this thread briefly with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tFighterPilot Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn toms, there is no 'no killing' rule. where did you get that? Murder is different than killing. The main reason I want to join the military is the training. its free training, it pays for college. I mean, its a good deal. IMO, if the rules of the goverment contradict God's word, you dont do it, but if it doesnt contradict it, its free game. Thats my opinion. skin- do you have AIM or email? I'd like to discuss your last post in this thread briefly with you. If you are only gonna do the training, I guess there's nothing wrong with it. Especially if you wouldn't even go to Iraq. Fact is, that I'm not sure it's possible. If it is, then there's something really wrong about the US government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn skin- do you have AIM or email? I'd like to discuss your last post in this thread briefly with you. cfeagans@email.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn toms, there is no 'no killing' rule. where did you get that? Murder is different than killing. The main reason I want to join the military is the training. its free training, it pays for college. I mean, its a good deal. IMO, if the rules of the goverment contradict God's word, you dont do it, but if it doesnt contradict it, its free game. Thats my opinion. Hmm, you say murder is different to killing. Muder, though, is the unlawful killing of another person. And law of is course varies from country to country. For instance, in certain Islamic countries women who get raped but only have 2 witness', are commited of adultery and stoned to death. They didn't commit murder, since it was perfectly legal to kill the women in the thier country. Oh, and I googled "ten commandments", and most of them seem to have "thou shalt not kill" as part of thier commandments, not "thou shalt not murder" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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