Combat

[THE MANDALORE]

In KOTOR 3, should combat change?

 

In TSL you just have to sit back and let the PC do the work for you.

 

I would like to see an UNARMED combat system like the one in GTA:SA or Jade Empire. ONLY FOR UNARMED COMBAT.

 

For Lightsaber fights, I want a new system (D20 is getting a little old).

 

What are your ideas?

[dryserg]

I think lightsaber combat should definetly improve, in terms of visuals,

- i mean, you stick your lightsaber right into guys face and hes still hanging out..-come on. i think we should see heads and arms being chopped, it also could be fun if you could drop lightsaber as a result of insufficient skill of influence of some force powers.

there must be actual different fighting styles!!!

like in ep III or ep II where every jedi had his unique style.

 

as of unarmed combat there should be elements of action game

otherwise it doesnt make sense.

[fresnosmokey02]

No, don't change the combat. Change the animations for the differing lightsaber forms and fighting styles, sure. But I don't want to have to do the "a button a button b button c button a button" thing. I don't like FPS's or eye-hand games. I am a story type person. I want the story to be the game not the combat.

[_Phaedrus_]

Yes, I agree, new combat system. Continuity's nice and all, but the trouble is D20 is just...boring. I prefer a more hands-on feel. I want to be able to shoot a blaster or swing a lightsaber myself, and not let D20 get in the way.

[THE MANDALORE]

^^^^

 

I have to agree with you.

 

When you use a lightsaber in TSL, it doesn't feel like your using it, since the PC does all the work for you.

 

When I hit a person across the face, he should move, or have his arm chopped off if i'm using a lightsaber. I believe the correct term is "Real Time Physics" or something...

 

Oh welcome to the forums dryserg!

[Snafu7]

Well I loved the current combat system and I hope they don't change, but I wouldn't be really upset if they changed it so you had more control.

[Palpatine_dc]

I really hope they don't change the combat system. It's supposed to be a RPG, if I want a FPS, I'll play Jedi Knight. More visual differences and better bouses for different forms is good though.

I would like to see some way of "Form Mastery". As it is now, the bonuses stay the same no mather if your a Padawan (BE level 6) or Jedi Master (or Sith Lord for that mather) at level 20-30. I want the bonuses to increase according to level reflecting the fact that years of practice in the same form gives the expierenced wielder an advantage over a beginner. You can see this in the movies: At the end of AotC Anakin lose to Count Dooku, but in the beginning of RotS, he is more experienced and beats the **** out of Dooku.

[Vladimir-Vlada]

@Mandalore

I completely agree.

 

Look at ranged combat for example. It really sucked, no doging, no targetting, no feats, just they do the job for you. I want to move around, duck, jump, strafe, crouch and aim in ranged combat, I also want to have manual grenade throws.

How about the damage system from Deus Ex, certain body parts, with limited damage hurt the enemy... And what happened to head shots?! I want to see, whenever I shoot a guy in the head, that he falls to the ground, DEAD!

 

Melee combat also. What happened to immobilizing, saber locks, dismemberment, I want those things also, hack-&-slash style! Certain damage is done. Moves, combo moves, jumpping and so on.

 

Add two more things:

 

Vehicle driving, piloting and shooting. I want to shoot from a starfighter and the Ebon Hawk, I want to shoot people, buildings, upgrade those vehicles, drive across endless terrains of huge planets, explore planets, space, the Galaxy and asteroid belts.

 

Epic battles, commanding, controlling and planning. I am SICK and TIRED of acting as a special forces group. I want to recruit soldiers, train them and then command huge battles to conquer planets. I want to wage enormous space battles, lead epic ground battles and command troops.

 

Also, how about wielding both melee and ranged weapon at the same time? Hmm, Heavy Blaster and Blue lightsaber, neat...

 

Plus, unarmed combat. What the hell was that?! You should be breaking their arms and throwing them at plasteel cylinders, or hit them in the heads.

 

All above should be controlled with both keyboard and mouse (Included jumpping).

 

What do you say?

[IndianaSolo]

I want them to keep the same combat system as the first two games, perhaps with a bit of fine tuning such as more varied animations (not the same exact move over and over when you use flurry, etc). I'm not sure KOTOR would do well do use a Jade Empire-style combat system.

[Palpatine_dc]

Look at ranged combat for example. It really sucked, no doging, no targetting, no feats, just they do the job for you. I want to move around, duck, jump, strafe, crouch and aim in ranged combat, I also want to have manual grenade throws.

How about the damage system from Deus Ex, certain body parts, with limited damage hurt the enemy... And what happened to head shots?! I want to see, whenever I shoot a guy in the head, that he falls to the ground, DEAD!

 

Melee combat also. What happened to immobilizing, saber locks, dismemberment, I want those things also, hack-&-slash style! Certain damage is done. Moves, combo moves, jumpping and so on.

 

While I agree that ranged combat was unsatisfying in KotOR, it's no reason to turn it into a first peron shooter or hack and slash game. There are more than enough sub standard shooters on the market, no need to turn KotOR into one.

 

 

 

Vehicle driving, piloting and shooting. I want to shoot from a starfighter and the Ebon Hawk, I want to shoot people, buildings, upgrade those vehicles, drive across endless terrains of huge planets, explore planets, space, the Galaxy and asteroid belts.

 

Try Battlefront 2 or SW Galaxies.

 

 

Epic battles, commanding, controlling and planning. I am SICK and TIRED of acting as a special forces group. I want to recruit soldiers, train them and then command huge battles to conquer planets. I want to wage enormous space battles, lead epic ground battles and command troops.

 

Try Empire at War.

 

 

Also, how about wielding both melee and ranged weapon at the same time? Hmm, Heavy Blaster and Blue lightsaber, neat...

 

 

That sounds cool, and Luke Skywalker enters Bespin in TEsb wielding both a blaster and a lightsaber, so why can't we?

[Emperor Devon]

I say they keep the D20 system, but expand upon it. There should be combo moves, decapitations... For saber locks, I'm thinking that if both characters make a regular attack, there's a 1 in 50 chance it'll be a lightsaber lock. The person with the higher strength wins the lock, but if the loser has a higher dexterity than the opponent's strength, (s)he dodges it.

Also, how the **** could you slash someone with a lightsaber and have them not die!? I'm certainly not saying sabers should be insta-kill weapons, but more like this... If you make a successful attack with your saber, the opponent should dodge/block, but it should look rather feeble. If you fail with an attack, the opponent should dodge/block, but it should look much stronger. When the opponent has low enough health that one more hit will finish them, that's when they should get hit by the saber.

 

Also, there's the lack of movement during duels. Why on earth does everyone stay in the same place rather than running around!? I think that if the character makes a successful attack, (s)he should advance upon the opponent, and take several steps forward, forcing the enemy back. The same could go for enemies - it would really help the lightsaber duels if the characters moved around.

 

Also, less swords and more guns. Even nowadays, we don't use swords that much, and cortosis is a very rare metal - why does everyone in the galaxy have it? Swords should be reserved for very few enemies.

 

Another thing I can think are new weapons - like missile launchers. I prefer my lightsaber, but I'd love to face some Sith Missile Troopers.

 

Lastly, new and better force powers. Lightning had great potential, but I think it would be better if the character held out both hands while using lightning, and did it until the opponent(s) died, or found a way to block it.

[Vladimir-Vlada]

^^^^

 

Devon I can't agree with you more.

 

"Also, how the **** could you slash someone with a lightsaber and have them not die!? I'm certainly not saying sabers should be insta-kill weapons, but more like this... If you make a successful attack with your saber, the opponent should dodge/block, but it should look rather feeble. If you fail with an attack, the opponent should dodge/block, but it should look much stronger. When the opponent has low enough health that one more hit will finish them, that's when they should get hit by the saber.

 

Also, there's the lack of movement during duels. Why on earth does everyone stay in the same place rather than running around!? I think that if the character makes a successful attack, (s)he should advance upon the opponent, and take several steps forward, forcing the enemy back. The same could go for enemies - it would really help the lightsaber duels if the characters moved around."

 

My point exatcly! I mean, what kind of a duel is it when you stay in one place and just swing the lightsaber, and then after several turns the enemy loses health???

 

Where's the jumpping, the avoiding, the blocking, saber locks where you have to do something to benefit the outcome. In Galaxies for example, lightsaber dueling looked awsome!

 

"Lastly, new and better force powers. Lightning had great potential, but I think it would be better if the character held out both hands while using lightning, and did it until the opponent(s) died, or found a way to block it.

"

 

Yeah. How about, when using Force Wave, the enemies hit the wall and they fall unconciouss, or fry them with Force Lightning while they float in the air (Pretty sick, but more realistic ).

 

Anyway, combat should be modified... A LOT.

[dryserg]

I still like the idea of dropping lightsaber during combat

even yoda did it at leas two times in ep II and then in ep III

after Palpatine`s chain lightning force.

and then add new force power like "lightsaber pull" or something

so it could make lightsaber duels more realistic.

then theres fighting vs many opponents that certainly needs new

more real animation - right now it looks funny, you hit one guy and

there are 3 more beat the **** outa ya but still no attetion payed.

-and yes lightsaber is a deadly weapon any hit that penetrates

should do alot of damage at least chop some body part.

finaly - swords? vibroblades? what is it diabo 2???

how can possibly some one fight with sword/vibroblade vs. lightsaber?

it looks kinda funny.

[Vladimir-Vlada]

"I still like the idea of dropping lightsaber during combat

even yoda did it at leas two times in ep II and then in ep III

after Palpatine`s chain lightning force.

and then add new force power like "lightsaber pull" or something

so it could make lightsaber duels more realistic.

then theres fighting vs many opponents that certainly needs new

more real animation - right now it looks funny, you hit one guy and

there are 3 more beat the **** outa ya but still no attetion payed.

-and yes lightsaber is a deadly weapon any hit that penetrates

should do alot of damage at least chop some body part.

finaly - swords? vibroblades? what is it diabo 2???

how can possibly some one fight with sword/vibroblade vs. lightsaber?

it looks kinda funny."

 

ME= Completely agree with you.

 

I mean seriously, why are there so many swords? What is this Neverwinter Nights? Save it for NWN 2, use guns instead, they're safer... LOL!

[DarkMe]

They should inprove the blaster ect. combat! you always stand still and do nothing but dodge and shoot (and not so accurate). If you fight someone with a vibroblade?sword and you have a lightsaber then you should have the upperhand!! Mabye it's better if the vibroblade/sword get's damage and later destroyed when the damage level is full!!!

Just a tought...

[Jeff]

I definately like ED's ideas. I hate it how people can get slashed by a lightsaber and not die. But stick with the d20 system; it wouldn't be kotor without it.

[RedHawke]

Then some of you have no real idea what the D20 system or any other RPG system is?

 

First, the full or partial control of combat features, and having flashy moves, all of you are talking about, by design have no place in KOTOR or any RPG, while combat is important almost all RPG systems try to follow the following guidelines;

 

1) The PC is a hero and as such is a larger than life figure... larger than life figures are not succeptable to things normal people are.

 

2) Combat cannot be outright leathal to a PC, damage is doled out over time... this comes from one of the first RPG systems a very long time ago and it was worked into the first D&D System, as D20 is an inheritor of this system, combat damage is handled as nicks and cuts, only leathal to the PC over time. This is why there are no insta-kill weapons, or real accurate sabers.

 

3) Not everything can be solved with combat... more rewards can be had for avoiding a fight... while many a game is basically "go into the dungeon and kill the monsters" sometimes there are monsters to strong to kill so you must find another way.

 

4) The blade weapons are a part of life in an RPG of Star Wars, Vibro-Blades as they were called are there simply to fill the slot of Non-Magical melee weapons usable by everyone, since the rarer Lightsabers are considered "Magic" for the purposes of the RPG system and are unusable by all but special NPC's.

 

Also even though you see very little, there is a lot going on in the background during combat, you get dodges and parry's in combat, you just don't have control over them... your ability to dodge is based on the total of your defence, as well as your ability to parry. This is how the D20 system works, and what the Defence rating means, it is a catch all number indicating how hard to hit you are, parts of it come from your armor (Physical Defense), parts come from your Dexterity (Dodge Defense), and parts come from your Shield/Items (Parry Defense). It is because of this that you get no individual Dodge and Parry chances in the game, it all is part of your Defense rating.

 

The lack of movement complained about is only a visual thing, there is no movement in RPG combat, it is all up to your dice rolls, defense, and bonuses vs. your opponents dice rolls, defense, and bonuses.

 

So RPG's are not places for really flashy duals between foes like you all seem to want, Yoda vs. Dooku in an RPG is unlikely. The same applies with Blasters, visually according to RPG rules you stand there in one spot and shoot and shoot until your opponent is dead, moving incurs penalties to your shots, the same would apply to any ranged weaponry, even missile launchers, they would be no different than grenades are now, remember the nicks and cuts RPG combat guideline.

 

To alter the current ways of combat would be futile, while they could script in a few more "flashy" moves/animations for our PC's to use, they still wouldn't do more than they do now because that is the way the RPG systems are made.

 

RPG combat is not supposed to be a test of manual dexterity, it is supposed to be a test for the brain and a little luck of the die!

[Darth333]

Hehe I waited before posting: I was sure Redhawke would say it all!

 

I really hope that if they change the Kotor system it will be only an animation thing. I don't want KotOR to turn into some "semi FPS" game... Not only this would be a bad idea in terms of gameplay but it would be a loss of ressources ($). I definitely prefer to have a better story, more dialogue and character development options, bigger maps to explore, more freedom in the game.

 

TSL added a lot of goodies but they sacrificed the story.

[JoshVoidstalker]

/\/\/\/\

 

RedHawke, I agree, but only so far.

 

"1) The PC is a hero and as such is a larger than life figure... larger than life figures are not succeptable to things normal people are."

 

True, but the game is boring if it gets too easy (or too hard) or if there is a lack of interaction with the environment.

 

"2) Combat cannot be outright leathal to a PC, damage is doled out over time... this comes from one of the first RPG systems a very long time ago and it was worked into the first D&D System, as D20 is an inheritor of this system, combat damage is handled as nicks and cuts, only leathal to the PC over time. This is why there are no insta-kill weapons, or real accurate sabers."

 

True for D20, but not neccessarily true for all RPG systems. IMHO d20 is full of holes large enough to fly the Ebon Hawke through.

 

"3) Not everything can be solved with combat... more rewards can be had for avoiding a fight... while many a game is basically "go into the dungeon and kill the monsters" sometimes there are monsters to strong to kill so you must find another way."

 

I agree. This is the story telling, problem, quest, and puzzle solving bit.

 

"4) The blade weapons are a part of life in an RPG of Star Wars, Vibro-Blades as they were called are there simply to fill the slot of Non-Magical melee weapons usable by everyone, since the rarer Lightsabers are considered "Magic" for the purposes of the RPG system and are unusable by all but special NPC's."

 

Meh. Bladed weapons are fairly rare in the Canon (the film trilogies) they appear but never as front line weapons. I'm not saying they should dissapear, but the "rare" "cortosis weave" weapons ended up being anything but. The over-emphasis of the current combat engine on melee fighting derives from the fact that KOTOR is based on a cosmetic coverup of NWN. Which itself is a D20 beast. This aspect of the game felt the least like Star Wars to me. Which is of course why I play with the Blaster Rebalance Mod. I for one would not mind seeing a KOTOR III that had cortosis weave weapons (regular and vibro) as actually rare. Then we could see Jedi and Sith Slicing through weapons like they should.

 

"Also even though you see very little, there is a lot going on in the background during combat, you get dodges and parry's in combat, you just don't have control over them... your ability to dodge is based on the total of your defence, as well as your ability to parry. This is how the D20 system works, and what the Defence rating means, it is a catch all number indicating how hard to hit you are, parts of it come from your armor (Physical Defense), parts come from your Dexterity (Dodge Defense), and parts come from your Shield/Items (Parry Defense). It is because of this that you get no individual Dodge and Parry chances in the game, it all is part of your Defense rating."

 

Again, only in D20. There ARE other systems. Go back and play Fallout, Jagged Alliance, Vampire, Wastland, etc. Go sit down with some friends and a copy of GURPS, FUZION, WEG Star Wars, Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0., Shadowrun, WOD, or Traveller. There are lots of ways to handle Combat and Damage. In my book Armor Class is the most idiotic idea I've ever seen. Armor stops Damage that has already struck you, It most certanly does not make you more difficult to strike. Go put on an Interceptor vest and an LBV with 30 punds of gear and ammo and play paintball; feel any more agile? Go put on some plate mail and then fight some SCA types, hard work no? Armor is there so that when you do get hit, it's not so bad. D20 has extremely abstracted the process of combat, while at the same time adding artificial distinction and complications to make it feel more "tactical". We can do better.

 

"The lack of movement complained about is only a visual thing, there is no movement in RPG combat, it is all up to your dice rolls, defense, and bonuses vs. your opponents dice rolls, defense, and bonuses."

 

If you're going to bother having combat animations, they could at least be entertaining. Still, you have a point, RPGs have always been weak in this area, even the acknowleged classics. My largest gripe with current system is not so much any of the above D20 SNAFUs, but the inane AI for my pary members. If I'm going to have to baby-sit them any way, give me full control and a turn based system.

 

In the end I'll prolly play it however they implement thngs, I like the story, I like the game. I personaly can't get worked up that much over "twitchness" or "die rollness" because I play all games; FPS, RPG, Adventure, Wargames, RTS, Simulations etc. Just like I can live with Bethesda's Fallout Three (as long as it works), I can live with any other studio's KOTOR Three. Just don't make it MMO anything.

[Emperor Devon]

First, the full or partial control of combat features, and having flashy moves, all of you are talking about, by design have no place in KOTOR or any RPG, while combat is important almost all RPG systems try to follow the following guidelines

 

I never said you should have full or partial control of the moves. I merely think that the combat animations aren't flashy enough, and could use some improvement.

When I said there should be combo moves, I guess I should've gone into more deatail about what I was thinking. If you kill a weak enemy with a critical hit (a level five enemy or under), and proceed onto another weak enemy, you should recieve some sort of bonus. I meant in no way there should be combo moves like there are in RotS.

 

1) The PC is a hero and as such is a larger than life figure... larger than life figures are not succeptable to things normal people are.

 

I agree completely.

 

3) Not everything can be solved with combat... more rewards can be had for avoiding a fight... while many a game is basically "go into the dungeon and kill the monsters" sometimes there are monsters to strong to kill so you must find another way.

 

Being a Sidious-like person, that sounds like a very good idea. What I was dissapointed at in KotOR AND TSL were how there were so few manipulative options. Although TSL actually includes what you were saying at one point, RH... Darth Sion is more than a match for your PC, so you must erode his will to kill him.

 

4) The blade weapons are a part of life in an RPG of Star Wars, Vibro-Blades as they were called are there simply to fill the slot of Non-Magical melee weapons usable by everyone, since the rarer Lightsabers are considered "Magic" for the purposes of the RPG system and are unusable by all but special NPC's.

 

That's true, but I considered the melee weapons a bit overused. Look at the two exchange thugs threatening the refugee with an axe and a staff.

 

The lack of movement complained about is only a visual thing, there is no movement in RPG combat, it is all up to your dice rolls, defense, and bonuses vs. your opponents dice rolls, defense, and bonuses.

 

I agree with how everything should be focused on the roll of the dice, but I don't see what's wrong with stepping forward a bit when you make a successful attack. Like you said, it's only visual, and it would not actully interfere with the combat.

 

So RPG's are not places for really flashy duals between foes like you all seem to want, Yoda vs. Dooku in an RPG is unlikely.

 

Why not? The combat should stay the same, but I don't see what's wrong with flashier visuals.

 

RPG combat is not supposed to be a test of manual dexterity, it is supposed to be a test for the brain and a little luck of the die!

 

Amen! I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

I don't want KT to turn in some "semi FPS" game..

 

What a terrible thought!

 

but it would be a loss of ressources ($).

 

Aw, who cares about that. LA is rolling in cash, and the president could stand to give up a couple of his solid gold swimming pools.

 

I seem to have stated myself incorrectly... I'm all for flashy visuals and my saber lock/stepping baack ideas, but the D20 system HAS TO stay!

[stingerhs]

i say leave the combat system the way it is, but use a simple system to provide some kind of control over the animations. for example, if both combatants are the same level, the animations would be more of your near miss/minor hits/blow and parry type of animations. if they were unequal, the animations would reflect this by showing the lower level character taking more brutal hits depending on the difference of the levels between the characters. the animation system could also take into account a 'death blow', where the hit delivers more or equal the amount of damage that the character has hit points, and give you a animation where the character recieves a lethal blow of some kind.

 

it would add a bit to the gameplay visually without changing it fundalmentally. the biggest downside is that the game would require a much larger number of animations for the characters.

[THE MANDALORE]

I have to agree with ED and VV.

 

I want different vehicles to ride across ENTIRE PLANETS, NOT JUST TWO OR THREE MAPS.

 

Also. I say expand a little on the D20 system but have a new system for the Unarmed fights (Vladimir-Vlada's idea of slamming someone into a plasteel cylinder sounded good).

 

New animations have to be included. I'm tired of seeing the same thing over and over again.

 

Stingerhs and RedHawk's ideas sound good too.

 

The most important thing for the KOTOR 3 should be "Real Time Physics" or something like that.

[Hallucination]

The combat system is great, and it has to stay that way. But the thing that it needs is there have to be better visuals. Not like 3 more animations, but new animations for every form. I wanna see the aggression in ataru and the resilience in seruso. Thats all it needs.

[Bob Lion54]

Definitely.

More animations would be great, especially to distinguish between the different sabre forms.

 

The basic combat should stay the same, but with new animations. I'd like different animations for flurry, advanced flurry, and master flurry. Same thing goes for power attack and critical strike. It would make them seem more special the better you get.

 

As far as the insta-kill sabres, realistically they should be. It just wouldn't make for a good game. It always bugged me that you could hit a guy right in the chest and he acts like he dosen't even feel it, but the game would quickley get boring if all your enemies where killed with one hit.

 

They could make the chance to hit alot lower, but when you do, they die or lose an arm or whatnot.That might work, but it could also make the game boring, as well. There wouldn't be a reason to upgrade your lightsabre, and thats a hugh draw for alot of people.

[RedHawke]

Hehe I waited before posting: I was sure Redhawke would say it all!

 

@ ED, I see what you were saying, but read below what I replied to Josh about the adding visuals part.

 

@ THE MANDALORE... I wouldn't expect any piloted vehicles or such, all that is far out of scope for the current KOTOR format. As they are features of Galaxies they likely would not put that into KOTOR III.

 

@ Josh, wow man, just WOW! You really seem to dislike D20...

(I personally hate it, hated it the minute they cancelled the D6 System, but I still adknowledge it because it is the backbone of the KOTOR series.)

 

RedHawke, I agree, but only so far.

There is nothing to agree or disagree with, as these are the rules of most all PnP RPG systems, you can debate it with me all you want but they won't change... look in the first chapter of 99% of all the PnP RPG systems Rule books and it will state some or most of these general guidelines somewhere.

 

1) The PC is a hero and as such is a larger than life figure... larger than life figures are not succeptable to things normal people are.

True, but the game is boring if it gets too easy (or too hard) or if there is a lack of interaction with the environment.

Read what I wrote again, it says nothing about the games difficulty, which is all up to the games DM or GM, in KOTOR's case Bioware, and with TSL Obsidian.

 

2) Combat cannot be outright leathal to a PC, damage is doled out over time... this comes from one of the first RPG systems a very long time ago and it was worked into the first D&D System, as D20 is an inheritor of this system, combat damage is handled as nicks and cuts, only leathal to the PC over time. This is why there are no insta-kill weapons, or real accurate sabers.

True for D20, but not neccessarily true for all RPG systems. IMHO d20 is full of holes large enough to fly the Ebon Hawke through.

Harnmaster, Chaosium, Steve Jackson's Games, FASA's Games, D&D, AD&D, Gurps, Palladium, D20 the list goes on and on, how is this not necissarily true? Any game system where your PC has any sort of hit points, vitality points, life points, damage levels, etc. is playing by this guideline. Any others are still playing by this rule only modifing it to suit their particular RPG system, but it does still apply or else you would have a combat-less game as no one would risk fighting and losing their character to the systems all-powerful weapons.

 

This also leads to the PC's being the "larger than life hero's" as the PC's will face what others will not, if you had insta-kill weapons this would be a moot point anyway. Lastly, any GM or DM who uses any sort of insta-kill weapons you should stay away from anyway.

 

I believe your dislike of the D20 system is clouding your judgement a bit.

 

4) The blade weapons are a part of life in an RPG of Star Wars, Vibro-Blades as they were called are there simply to fill the slot of Non-Magical melee weapons usable by everyone, since the rarer Lightsabers are considered "Magic" for the purposes of the RPG system and are unusable by all but special NPC's.

Meh. Bladed weapons are fairly rare in the Canon (the film trilogies) they appear but never as front line weapons. I'm not saying they should dissapear, but the "rare" "cortosis weave" weapons ended up being anything but.

I suggest you re-read what I wrote again then... as I state why there are so many blade weapons in the KOTOR games.

 

There are a ton of bladed weapons in the D6 and D20 Star Wars RPG's as well, in the D6 system nearly half the character templates recieved a Vibroblade in their starting equipment, let alone the way D20 character classes starting equiment lists are done. This is where the blades come from in the computer game, so we are not likely to see it change.

 

Arguing the way the movies handle things in relation to a set of PnP RPG rules is really a moot point, as many if not all of the movie based RPG's deviate somewhere from the Movies they were based on to fit into the PnP RPG genre.

 

The over-emphasis of the current combat engine on melee fighting derives from the fact that KOTOR is based on a cosmetic coverup of NWN. Which itself is a D20 beast. This aspect of the game felt the least like Star Wars to me. Which is of course why I play with the Blaster Rebalance Mod. I for one would not mind seeing a KOTOR III that had cortosis weave weapons (regular and vibro) as actually rare. Then we could see Jedi and Sith Slicing through weapons like they should.

This is a critique of the D20 system, and really has nothing to do with what I was saying... While I also dislike the D20 system, I still give it it's due as an RPG system, as it is what we have to use for the KOTOR games, arguing D20's rules means nothing in the long run.

 

Also the destruction of an opponents weapon is not a popular feature in any RPG, and is a "House Rule" at the best, because not everyone likes it, many hate it with a passion.

 

Again, only in D20.

But Josh... D20 is what we are talking here... that is the threads subject is Combat in KOTOR?

 

There ARE other systems. Go back and play Fallout, Jagged Alliance, Vampire, Wastland, etc. Go sit down with some friends and a copy of GURPS, FUZION, WEG Star Wars, Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0., Shadowrun, WOD, or Traveller.

Again, other RPG systems are not really the subject here...

 

I have played all of those PnP games you listed, and they all share the attributes I listed above...

 

There are lots of ways to handle Combat and Damage. In my book Armor Class is the most idiotic idea I've ever seen. Armor stops Damage that has already struck you, It most certanly does not make you more difficult to strike. Go put on an Interceptor vest and an LBV with 30 punds of gear and ammo and play paintball; feel any more agile? Go put on some plate mail and then fight some SCA types, hard work no? Armor is there so that when you do get hit, it's not so bad. D20 has extremely abstracted the process of combat, while at the same time adding artificial distinction and complications to make it feel more "tactical". We can do better.

But Josh this was not about your favorite RPG systems, or realism, this was about D20 and it's handling of combat. Your straying from any semblance of an argument here.

 

The lack of movement complained about is only a visual thing, there is no movement in RPG combat, it is all up to your dice rolls, defense, and bonuses vs. your opponents dice rolls, defense, and bonuses.

If you're going to bother having combat animations, they could at least be entertaining.

Hence, they could give us some flashy new animations but after the second or so playthrough people would still complain because they would be very repetitive, just like the few new ones they gave us in TSL.

 

Still, you have a point, RPGs have always been weak in this area, even the acknowleged classics.

Yup! Because I played many of the classics I'm actually glad to get the eye-candy we get in the KOTOR games!

 

My largest gripe with current system is not so much any of the above D20 SNAFUs, but the inane AI for my pary members. If I'm going to have to baby-sit them any way, give me full control and a turn based system.

Again I didn't post gripes, I was merely trying to educate those who had never played the D20 system, what KOTOR was based on, before.

 

But, I do agree the AI in the KOTOR series needs (needed) a overhaul. Try stoffe -mkb-'s Tweaked AI Mod it is much better!

 

I personaly can't get worked up that much over "twitchness" or "die rollness" because I play all games; FPS, RPG, Adventure, Wargames, RTS, Simulations etc.

You really couldn't tell that from your post!