Emperor Devon Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 It always was and always will be Revan, a fact helped by his amnesia. Revan had over twenty years of experience before Malak's betrayal with which to develop his abilities. He was also trained by many of the Jedi's greatest Masters, and the Star Forge no doubt boosted his powers when he was the Dark Lord. (It's stated near the end of the game that the Star Forge was fueling Malak's power, so I don't see why it couldn't have happened with Revan.) While this should count for nothing, as Revan was given a mind wipe, Bastila states several times in TSL that Revan's memories are returning. It's most likely that what he knew about combat returned as well. With all that knowledge in addition to how he became more powerful than ever during his quest for the Star Forge, I don't see how someone who was out of shape for ten years and was then briefly trained by Kreia could stand up against someone who has over twenty-five years of experience. That's more of speculation however. There's nothing that points towards the Exiles 'purpose' was to destroy Nihilus. Purpose or no, the Exile's wound in the Force is useless against anyone other than Nihilus and his Sith Assassins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.Nova Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Actually. Revan never embraced the power of the Star Forge. Malak comments on this about Revan not taking advantage of the "True power of the Star Forge" and "How Revan only thought of it as war factory" something along those lines. Still, I'm more or less basing my arguement now on the Exile's anomaly. I think the Exile can be compared to Anakin in some way (not personality wise). Death of the Force v.s Balance to the Force. Revan more or less has maxed out his/her potential. It was proven at his/her height during the Jedi Civil War, when Bastila and her strike team captured Revan who never saw Malak's betrayal coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Devon Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Actually. Revan never embraced the power of the Star Forge. Malak comments on this about Revan not taking advantage of the "True power of the Star Forge" and "How Revan only thought of it as war factory" something along those lines. Whether he recognized it or not, it's most likely it still affected him. The computer in the temple says that the Star Forge feeds of the Dark Side, and in order to generate greater amounts of negative energy to feed itself, it empowers those who use it. It did that to the Rakata without their knowledge, so I don't why it couldn't have happened to Revan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.Nova Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Well we can't say for sure that the Star Forge didn't affect Revan. Though Malak clearly implies otherwise. However for the most part chances are Revan limited his/her contact with it. Afterall the Star Forge also fed on the force, particulary the Dark Side. It corrupted anyone who spent too much time in it to the point where it could control you, like it did with the Rakatan. It eventually forced the Rakatan into civil war. That's most likely true, as Revan wasn't your typical Sith Lord who solely desired more power. Even if did affect Revan, it couldn't be anything significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 I think we get something of an answer to this debate when the Exile enters the cave on Korriban and fights Revan. She beats him easily, but then again she is able to easily defeat Malek, Bastila and the Jedi who fought in the Mandalorian wars, so it may not be an indication of how 1337 Exile was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 That's more of speculation however. There's nothing that points towards the Exiles 'purpose' was to destroy Nihilus. Nihilus was weakened by trying to drain the Exile during their confrentation, Nihilus was stated to be an unstoppable hunger, the Exile was the only counter, add to this the 'fact' that their 'gifts' both were born out of Malachor is good enough evidence, add to this there were absolutely no benefits to it or powers we developed because of it during gameplay to tell us this 'wound' was anything beneficial, except in dealing with Nihilus and his Force life-drain. This easily fits with what we all know of the Force and it having a will of its own. Nor is there anything that points at the Exile's 'wound' being 'healed' of sorts after defeating Kreia. True, this was some light story supposition by myself. But some speculation will be required when dealing with a fight between the Exile and Revan. The 'wound' status and benefits, if any, is a big one. Another thing you mentioned earlier was the Exile's uncanny ability to unwillingly create force bonds. That same ability was magnified once the Exile began reconnecting with the Force. No it was the same as it always had been, hence why the Exile went alone into 'Exile' to not form these kinds of painful bonds again. But they started again with Kreia and Atton, Kreia knew about this gift and used it, this is shown with her hand being cut off on the Harbinger and the Exile feeling it. Remember the Exile blocked out the painful memories of Malachor, and it is no wonder why. This also gave me some strong empathy for the Exile during the Mandalorian Wars, imagine being connected to so many comrades and having so many die at once the sensations would be horrible. Force Bonds is not a 'gift' I would ever want. Which overall the Exile had become much more powerful with the Force as a whole than he/she was before Malachor V. That's speculation as well. When dealing with levels and classes this is possible, but is a negligible benefit from strictly game terms. Revan may have had much more potential than his/her peers, but I think because he/she was slightly more gifted than the others doesn't make Revan better. I believe because of that, Revan's power was limited. Revan had already begun to max out his/her potential early on. In time Jedi like Malak would have challenged Revan's power. There is no such thing as "max out his/her potential", especially in something you are 'gifted' at... that's just silly. You never stop learning, even in something you are 'gifted' at. Malak would have never bested Revan in a one-on-one Duel, hence why Malak used treachery and naval artillery... a perfectly acceptable thing to do in the Dark Sith circles. It was proven at his/her height during the Jedi Civil War, when Bastila and her strike team captured Revan who never saw Malak's betrayal coming. This does not indicate ones power or abilities, everyone can be betrayed. If Malak had not acted then Revan and the Sith would have aquired Bastila, making the Sith even stronger. Revan definately had a plan. So did Sidious, even when Vader pitched his butt down a shaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Devon Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Afterall the Star Forge also fed on the force, particulary the Dark Side. It corrupted anyone who spent too much time in it to the point where it could control you, like it did with the Rakatan. It eventually forced the Rakatan into civil war. Unless, as the computer said, someone who has an immensly strong will controls it. That still does not mean the Star Forge would not bolster Revan's power. But, this is wandering away from the original point. The Star Forge made Revan a bit stronger, but I don't think it was a decisive factor in him being more powerful than the Exile. No it was the same as it always had been, hence why the Exile went alone into 'Exile' to not form these kinds of painful bonds again. But they started again with Kreia and Atton, Kreia knew about this gift and used it, this is shown with her hand being cut off on the Harbinger and the Exile feeling it. Remember the Exile blocked out the painful memories of Malachor, and it is no wonder why. The bond with Kreia was not due entirely to the Exile's nature to form to connections. Were that the case, she would have the same kind of connection she had with Kreia with the rest of the crew, which she did not. I think the bond was also due to Kreia's intervention, since the teachings of the new Sith revolve around in forming bonds with others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC-1162 Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Revan would pwn, because of what i heard, it would seem the Exile lost his.her abilityto use the Force for a short while, whereas Revan forgot about his abilities, but could easily learn them back. and he was the damn Lord of the Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleOfHarpenden Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Exile,he can get to a higher level, he has force crunch(if ds) he is the greatest Kreia has ever trained, if your good enough u beat revan in the tomb thing, you kill more people, Exile can just get stronger and stronger because he like drains the force from the people he kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjpb3 Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 I think we get something of an answer to this debate when the Exile enters the cave on Korriban and fights Revan. She beats him easily... ...if your good enough u beat revan in the tomb thing... That wasn't Revan in the tomb. From what I gather, that was an illusion of Revan created by Kreia from Exile's memories. Just because you can defeat THAT Revan doesn't mean that you are defeating Revan. Hee, if that was my Revan, she completely forgot everything I ever taught her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.Nova Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Nihilus was weakened by trying to drain the Exile during their confrentation, Nihilus was stated to be an unstoppable hunger, the Exile was the only counter, add to this the 'fact' that their 'gifts' both were born out of Malachor is good enough evidence, add to this there were absolutely no benefits to it or powers we developed because of it during gameplay to tell us this 'wound' was anything beneficial, except in dealing with Nihilus and his Force life-drain. This easily fits with what we all know of the Force and it having a will of its own. That's what I mean by unknown potential however. This wound apparently can do strange things with the Force. Nihilus can feed on it, how many Force practicioners are known for doing that. Who knows what else Nihilus was capable of if it wasn't for his blind hunger. The Exile never tries to experiment with this wound however. True, this was some light story supposition by myself. But some speculation will be required when dealing with a fight between the Exile and Revan. The 'wound' status and benefits, if any, is a big one. But I will give you this. I don't know if I missed it, but the Exile's bond with Kreia seemed to have been severed, or weakened at that time. Perhaps that gives some indication of his wound healing of sorts. No it was the same as it always had been, hence why the Exile went alone into 'Exile' to not form these kinds of painful bonds again. But they started again with Kreia and Atton, Kreia knew about this gift and used it, this is shown with her hand being cut off on the Harbinger and the Exile feeling it. Remember the Exile blocked out the painful memories of Malachor, and it is no wonder why. I disagree. The Exile was never aware of his/her strange ability to create force bonds. The Exile, already mired in melancholia, returned to the council where they banished him/her. Now when Kreia helps the Exile re-establish his/her connection with the force, the Exile little "force bond" becomes strong enough to warrant death between them. If the Exile was capable of making powerful force bonds like these before Malachor V, then the Mandalorian Wars would have done much worse to the Exile. This also gave me some strong empathy for the Exile during the Mandalorian Wars, imagine being connected to so many comrades and having so many die at once the sensations would be horrible. Force Bonds is not a 'gift' I would ever want. Would explain Bao-Dur's rather strong loyalty towards the Exile. That's speculation as well. When dealing with levels and classes this is possible, but is a negligible benefit from strictly game terms. Perhaps. But I think the earlier statement on force bonds and such can apply here. There is no such thing as "max out his/her potential", especially in something you are 'gifted' at... that's just silly. You never stop learning, even in something you are 'gifted' at. In my opinion there is. Revan gathered all the knowledge he/she could under the Jedi Masters. Had the experience of fighting both wars... there's really nothing left. Revan could learn every force technique he/she could but Revan's power was at it's limit. There was nothing left for Revan to learn. Malak would have never bested Revan in a one-on-one Duel, hence why Malak used treachery and naval artillery... a perfectly acceptable thing to do in the Dark Sith circles. Malak at least learned something from Revan's mastermind. It was much smarter to try and kill Revan and the Jedi this way over challenging Revan in a duel. For Revan not to see that coming is IMO already a sign of his/her power giving way. This does not indicate ones power or abilities, everyone can be betrayed. If Malak had not acted then Revan and the Sith would have aquired Bastila, making the Sith even stronger. Revan definately had a plan. So did Sidious, even when Vader pitched his butt down a shaft. My previous answer can apply here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 That wasn't Revan in the tomb. From what I gather, that was an illusion of Revan created by Kreia from Exile's memories. Just because you can defeat THAT Revan doesn't mean that you are defeating Revan. Say, just how did Kreia or Exile know Bastila anyway? She would have just joined by the time Exile went off to war and she was pretty clueless on a lot that is common knowledge. How would Exile know that Bastila only joined Malek after torture and brainwashing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven_Onasi Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 I'll take Revan for the win, please. I think Revan would win because he/she was once a dark lord (or may still be a dark lord, depending on which way you chose to go) and has more experiance. The Exile was just a "wound in the force" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 I disagree. The Exile was never aware of his/her strange ability to create force bonds. The Exile, already mired in melancholia, returned to the council where they banished him/her. Nope, the expiriences at Malachor were stated to be such a strain on the Exile that the cutting off from the force was the result of all that death. While yes the Exile was unaware of the Force Bonds, remember that in combat the Exile wont feel anything as the mind is prepared, but at Malachor when Revan was 'cleaning house' the Exile was witnessing the horror from a safe distance, while many comerades died, this is the reason the Exile could feel those bonds, and from so many it overwhelmed the Exile. Now when Kreia helps the Exile re-establish his/her connection with the force, the Exile little "force bond" becomes strong enough to warrant death between them. If the Exile was capable of making powerful force bonds like these before Malachor V, then the Mandalorian Wars would have done much worse to the Exile. Remember Kreia is a deciever, she used the Exile's gift to her advantage not the other way around. In my opinion there is. Revan gathered all the knowledge he/she could under the Jedi Masters. Had the experience of fighting both wars... there's really nothing left. Revan could learn every force technique he/she could but Revan's power was at it's limit. There was nothing left for Revan to learn. There is always something new to learn. So I have to disagree, but life expiriences will teach you this. So I won't continue. Malak at least learned something from Revan's mastermind. It was much smarter to try and kill Revan and the Jedi this way over challenging Revan in a duel. For Revan not to see that coming is IMO already a sign of his/her power giving way. Being betrayed and not 'seeing it coming' is not a "a sign of his/her power giving way", again that is another silly statement. Anyone can be betrayed... it is not an indicator of power. The Exile was betrayed by Kreia, so is the Exile weak because of this? i think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadi Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 I think we get something of an answer to this debate when the Exile enters the cave on Korriban and fights Revan. She beats him easily, but then again she is able to easily defeat Malek, Bastila and the Jedi who fought in the Mandalorian wars, so it may not be an indication of how 1337 Exile was. I have to strongly disagree with that. The Malek and Revan we saw on Korriban were merely illusions to test the Exile. They were created by what Exile remembered of them - we see Malek with a normal face rather then his mechanical jaw and we see Revan dressed in his/her Korriban robes. We can speculate that the last time Exile saw Revan was towards then end on Malachor V. We know this by the timeline on the official site. Revan had approximately several more years of learning Sith techinques AFTER Malachor V and up to when s/he is betrayed by Malak. Remember, Exile did not follow Revan after Malachor V so s/he has no idea how powerful Revan became in that time span. All Exile has are memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Exile would remember Revan as a Jedi general, right? What should have been done was to have questions about Revan asked throughout the game so the game can guess that Revan looked like this or that rather than have him appear in the Sith robes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.Nova Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Nope, the expiriences at Malachor were stated to be such a strain on the Exile that the cutting off from the force was the result of all that death. While yes the Exile was unaware of the Force Bonds, remember that in combat the Exile wont feel anything as the mind is prepared, but at Malachor when Revan was 'cleaning house' the Exile was witnessing the horror from a safe distance, while many comerades died, this is the reason the Exile could feel those bonds, and from so many it overwhelmed the Exile. Yes, that's what I'm saying. All of that would have placed a load of stress on the Exile's shoulders. Remember Kreia is a deciever, she used the Exile's gift to her advantage not the other way around. Kreia may have been responsible, but the Exile was still the basis for that most likely. Meaning the power of this gift was all the Exile. There is always something new to learn. So I have to disagree, but life expiriences will teach you this. So I won't continue. I like to compare the Force practicioner thing to be an athlete. Now you've been in this game for many years, you've won championships, you've done it all. But eventually there's nothing left for you, and someone else comes along who is a bit better than you. Revan may always be more experienced than the Exile, but the Exile may be much more capable than Revan. Being betrayed and not 'seeing it coming' is not a "a sign of his/her power giving way", again that is another silly statement. Anyone can be betrayed... it is not an indicator of power. The Exile was betrayed by Kreia, so is the Exile weak because of this? i think not. Alright you can have this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lantzen Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Think Revan would pwn the Exile. And in the tomb Exile dont know that Bastila had turned to the darkside, you can say that Bastila didn't turn, and they answer that she turned later to the darkside, so it can't just be the memory the Exile have in the tomb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 right, firstly im not going with any cannon c**p! lets start by dubunking a few myths you lot have come up with... since when was revan amazing with a lightsaber, kreia, the chronicles etc all state revan's special abilities were in military strategy and leadership.. thats his/her main attribte a great mind! - now revan's memory state is pure conjcture, and any 'advantage' his/her added years add are taken away by the fact we have to presume for the most part revan's memory of being a sith lord has been taken away. the exile's special abilities are his/her ability to form bonds and the wound in the force - this would also have advantages against opponents other than nihilus for example force drain wouldnt work for any dark jedi/sith, on the other side of this, the exile has a period of 10 years without the force and has to relearn everything that comes before. so who was stronger with the force/better at lightsaber combat is a matter of conjecture, as in game it depends on what class you go (consular/guardian/watchman) as for prestiage classes/level value they dont count as they arent avalible in kotor. onto the fight, well they would have only sparred if they were lightside, so we can discount that... so theyre alignments have to either be revan LS vs Exile DS, revan DS vs Exile ligtside, and then Sith Lord vs Sith Lord - now exile's wound can lead to conjecture as to how effective dark side power would be (dont go with darkside powers used on exile in game) force drain wouldnt work, and it is speculation if choke etc would work! so i think the exile might shade it, if revan is DS, on the other hand, i tihnk revan would shade it, if exile is ds, as all revans force power would be defensive, so the exile's wound has not effect on this! anyways overall whatever the alignments i think this dual would be too close to call, none of this waffle you lot have been saying about revan walking it - being a sith lord has no advatange if you cant remember it... besides, the exile defeats 3 sith lords... revan defeats 1.... that said revan brought the mandalorians into check... so who would win? who knows! unless we have it in K3 i would like to think they would kill each other at the same time, with a similar killer move! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Allen`` Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Since when was Revan amazing with a lightsaber? Use a move such as flurry and see how much better Revan is at it than Exile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 thats an animation difference with in the game, thats like saying the exile is better because he/she can be level 50 and revan is 20... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Kreia may have been responsible, but the Exile was still the basis for that most likely. Meaning the power of this gift was all the Exile. That's what I have been saying from the beginning, just Kreia used it to her advantage. I like to compare the Force practicioner thing to be an athlete. Now you've been in this game for many years, you've won championships, you've done it all. But eventually there's nothing left for you, and someone else comes along who is a bit better than you. This explanation works fine for athletes, but not for Force Users, the nearest thing to compare the Jedi to would be a religious order. While I do agree there is always someone who can challenge you and win, there is no 'limits' or 'maximums' in the study of the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Jesus Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Revan. He is one of the greatest Sith Lords ever, IMO. He and Malak singlehandedly crushed Mandalorians and he is akin to Vader in his "destiny" role. The Exile rules too, but he was a General under one of the most brilliant tacticians of all time IMO. But it's really like comparing an A with an A+....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetalMark Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Revan would win he is considerd one of the best fighters since Tulak and he was the dark lord of the sith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davinq Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Exile. Revan's just a confuzzled Sith Lord. The Exile feeds off of the Force of others, making her more powerful than Revan. plus: Revan is lvl 20, Exile's up to lvl 50 postpost note: it pains me to call the Exile female, but everything points towards it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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