Who "Do Not Want" Kotor3?

[RedHawke]

@Hawke: Um...that was a joke, right?

Nope, I am serious.

 

See Prime stated; "There have been many threads around on why reintroducing old PCs doesn't really work in RPGs."

 

You replied with: "Yes, there have. But just because the same argument is repeated a lot doesn't make it any more the truth."

 

Unfortunately, what was stated then and now about the negatives of re-introducing old PC's is "the truth", it just really isn't viable.

 

Especiallly as the prime example is TSL using the Exile, if the KotOR series was going to be the 'Story Of Revan' then we would have picked up with Revan at level 20 and played from there. Then, being we are already the mighty and invincible Revan at level 20, we wouldn't really need that much of a game as we are already fairly all-powerful enough to handle most any opponent. Not good.

 

Then there is the requirements set by the various player types who play these games. You are alienating a large percentage (around 33-66%) of your RPG 'audience' by starting a game this way, as hard as it is for some to recognise, but there are players who get a ton of satisfaction 'building' the character from the beginning, and or play for just the dialogs and story. To start with an already developed character robs them of the expirience they crave and as such is marketing suicide for the developers to persue.

 

When making a game you have to cater to the whole audience, that is the key to a sucessful game. This is why KotOR and TSL did so well, even with some of the flaws people report TSL has.

[Jediphile]

@Jediphile: Maybe, but even if you dont *want* to remember something, it's always there. Even at the back of your mind, it's always there, and like all memories, a name, for example, will trigger it.

 

Certainly. Indeed, I consider that to be the very core of the Exile's problem. He is in denial about lots of things throughout the game. What we're less certain about is whether he's simply denying it in conversation or whether he denies it to himself as well. But I tend to think the latter, since he genuinely doesn't seem to realise that he cut himself off from the force, that he is a wound in the force, etc. The Exile is mentally unstable, because he represses dark episodes from his part, and particularly from Malachor V. And that denial is the very center of his problem and the plot of TSL.

[Prime]

True, but again, the story of K2 is very much entirely about Revan

For a moment, remove any mention of Revan from the story of K2 and replace it with "generic Jedi turned Sith Lord" or some such. How much does the story and game progression change?

[Totenkopf]

Well, the only way you could work the whole Revan character would be to add more powers and feats (perhaps those from TSL plus some extra) and make the opponents realllly tough. But I agree that it would be better to start from scratch and make both Revan and Exile NPCs at best and plot points at least. I don't believe it necessary for either of them to actually make an appearance. Still, no doubt, there are those who would rather leave the fates of the 2 of them mysteries for the same reason they'd rather develop their own charachters........it would allow them to argue ad naseum about the ultimate fate of either one w/o anyone else being able to trump them. Much like the debate about the gender or alignment of Revan and Exile. Then again, canon didn't seem to settle those arguments either......

[Clone L68362]

For a moment, remove any mention of Revan from the story of K2 and replace it with "generic Jedi turned Sith Lord" or some such. How much does the story and game progression change?

 

Well...the guy won't be named Revan...if that's what you mean...if you meant remove Revan, well, then KOTOR would've never happened!

 

I still don't understand the whole "forget about the Exile and Revan for K3" mentality.

[RedHawke]

Well...the guy won't be named Revan...if that's what you mean...if you meant remove Revan, well, then KOTOR would've never happened!

Talk about missing Prime's point entirely...

[Totenkopf]

I think Prime's point might be basically that it doesn't really matter what the name of the sith lord was in KOTOR b/c TSL is about Exile's recovering his/her identity and the whys of his/her predicament. Revan is sort of incidental. Almost background noise. The story in TSL doesn't need Revan (except perhaps insofar as it ties into making it a sequel to the events in KOTOR, not just as another SW story) to work on it's own.

[Prime]

TSL is about Exile's recovering his/her identity and the whys of his/her predicament. Revan is sort of incidental. Almost background noise. The story in TSL doesn't need Revan (except perhaps insofar as it ties into making it a sequel to the events in KOTOR, not just as another SW story) to work on it's own.

You get a cookie.

[Darth Avlectus]

Who "Do Not Want" Kotor3?

 

Before people start spaming I am going to say its not meant to be a joke thread.

 

 

What I am trying to say is, maybe K3 should not exist at all, but instead another game in the kotor universe instead. The follow up of the Revan/Exile thing can be answered in other media (or maybe even FoC2)

 

No direct correlation, but something to solidify and support the quote.

It certainly implies that the republic in the films hand not always stood.

 

There are just too many variants in the whole situation that a true ending to the series (without a preset situation for Revan/Exile) would be improbable.

 

It is one of those weird thoughts I have after one too many coffee, and reading thru those kotor comics where they describe yet another character in the era.

 

I noticed a lot of people wanting to have a 3rd based upon the endings.

 

That's the same mistake the TWISTED METAL series made in their storyline (that and 989 studios is really better at making sports games in the first place).

 

I agree--WAY too many unknowns. IT should be upon the destruction of THIS Republic. Trying at the quote from palpatine/sidious AOTC "I will not let this republic, that has stood for a thousand years, be split in two."

No direct correlation, but something to solidify and support the quote.

It certainly implies that the republic in the films hand not always stood.

 

Spreading it out too thin you think?

[Clone L68362]

I think Prime's point might be basically that it doesn't really matter what the name of the sith lord was in KOTOR b/c TSL is about Exile's recovering his/her identity and the whys of his/her predicament. Revan is sort of incidental. Almost background noise. The story in TSL doesn't need Revan (except perhaps insofar as it ties into making it a sequel to the events in KOTOR, not just as another SW story) to work on it's own.

 

Well, I thought we all knew that.

 

Doesn't make Revan any less important in the long run, though.

[tbl]

Crisis of Infinite KOTOR Endings?

[Darth InSidious]

Prime: How about the games' sequels?

Also, if you can't bring back one character, what makes others any less confusing...What about HK, T3, Candalore et al.?

 

re: the name - replace Luke Skywalker with 'Bob the Amazing Three-Eyebrowed Dustman From Torquay'

 

@Hawke: you seem to be implying that repeating something a lot made it more true...

 

I don't deny you make a strong argument, and yes, people would find it confusing, but I get the feeling a lot of TSL-only players were a bit confused by the refs. to Revan anyhow... Yes, you run the risk of alienating your audience or being horrendously cliched, but there are ways around it, and unless you make KotOR III entirely unrelated to the previous two, you are going to have to have a character with some background in the events of the MW/JCW/SCW, which will inevitably both confuse new players and involve a certain degree of amnesia, IMO.

[Totenkopf]

Well, I thought we all knew that.

 

Doesn't make Revan any less important in the long run, though.

 

 

Prime's point was that it didn't really matter if Revan was mentioned a lot or little in the TSL, not that Revan be removed from the backstory (ie KOTOR). Regardless of who "caused the mess" left behind, Exile's story was about cleaning it up and choosing a path. If Revan were to assume the focus in TSL that you appear to suggest, then there would be no need to question what Exile's choice at the end would be. He'd/She'd automatically go off in search of Revan. Even Kriea suggests as much in the end, ie that Exile's path is not necessarily the same as Revan's. So, basically, while many may want to know what became of Revan by the end of a third KOTOR, it's not absolutely necessary to encounter that charachter to make the 3rd game a success on its own. Perhaps Revan and the Exile have seriously hobbled the plans of the true sith, you meet them as some kind of force ghosts who took one for the team, and they basically reveal what you need to do to finish the job.

[Prime]

Prime: How about the games' sequels?

Also, if you can't bring back one character, what makes others any less confusing...What about HK, T3, Candalore et al.?

They were NPC characters that had a predefined behavior and plotlines that are experienced more or less the same by all the players. Canderous is a Mandalorian who is attempting to rebuild the clans and bring them back to prominence, for example.

 

Revan and the Exile are a completely different case because they are PCs. Are they male or female? Good or evil? Every player is going to have a different experience with them, and so they are much harder to bring back and make them true to everyone's own experiences.

 

I don't deny you make a strong argument, and yes, people would find it confusing, but I get the feeling a lot of TSL-only players were a bit confused by the refs. to Revan anyhow...

Why do you say that? There is enough in the game to get a jist of who he was and how he affected the galaxy.

 

Yes, you run the risk of alienating your audience or being horrendously cliched, but there are ways around it, and unless you make KotOR III entirely unrelated to the previous two, you are going to have to have a character with some background in the events of the MW/JCW/SCW, which will inevitably both confuse new players and involve a certain degree of amnesia, IMO.

But III doesn't have to be unrelated to previous games for players to not be confused. We didn't know about the Mandalorian Wars in K1, but we learned about that after the fact. There is nothing to stop you from providing information about the previous games to give the new players an idea of the state of the galaxy (both K1 and K2 did this).

 

My point is all that can be done without having the new game include Revan or the Exile as characters. And a new character does not have to have a personal history in those events (a new padawan perhaps?), only that such information is provided to the player as the story requires.

[Totenkopf]

We know something of the MW from conversations with Canderous in KOTOR. His exchanges with Carth and Bastila also shed a little light. As well as the dialogue with Juhani. TSL goes on to expand on this, but the groundwork is laid in KOTOR.

[JoesGuy]

Call me evil, but if I were the C.E.O of LA I'd not make KotOR III just out of spite, but then it's really down to money and buisness.

 

I'm indifferent about K3 myself. If it comes it comes, if it doesn't it doesn't. It not our place to decide what they do with their time, but then they need to keep their rocket cars and gold houses polished so maybe we'll get what we want yet. Personally, I'd rather let Team-Gizka finish K2 first, because technically we haven't even finished K2 yet, have we?

[Jeff]

I'm fine if theres no Revan or Exile in the game but I'd like the next game to sort of follow up where TSL left off, time period wise.

[JoesGuy]

I'm fine if theres no Revan or Exile in the game but I'd like the next game to sort of follow up where TSL left off, time period wise.

Yeah I'm for that. Of course, if Revan and Exile were to return they'd have to give us the option of choosing their appearance from the old games.

[Grey Master]

I will no longer care, because its more fun this way, not knowing and trying to come up with our own conclusions, but if its made, I will gladly buy it.

[ViperSkeele]

It was pretty hard role-playing the Exile, when he clearly had so much past knowledge that he never revealed himself. That the character is unwilling to share it with friends and companions is one thing, but I need to know it to play the character. Since I didn't, it meant that playing the Exile was like playing blindfolded with a hand tied behind my back.

 

Don't get me wrong, though. I actually don't want to have Revan or the Exile as the protagonist in KotOR3. I'd much rather go for a new, young jedi padawan-turning-knight. I'd want Revan and Exile in the plot as major characters who could be playable only later in the game.

 

I mean, Revan and Exile are pretty powerful characters now. Revan is at least level 20 (and probably a lot more, given that he's been off fighting the true Sith for four years), while the Exile could be pushing level 50. How do you make a playable game that retains progressive elements at those power levels from the beginning? And "resetting" either of them back to level 1 would be lame beyond description, since that's what we've seen twice in as many games now. Sure, the Exile didn't officially have amnesia as Revan did, but then it hardly mattered, when the effect amounted to the same thing...

 

I'm thinking they may have Revan, The Exile, or both as NPC's in the party, perhaps picked up as masters to train the new PC. Bottom line is I for one HAVE TO find out, HELL YEAH I WANT KOTOR 3 !!!

[DarthMuffin]

Yeah I'm for that. Of course, if Revan and Exile were to return they'd have to give us the option of choosing their appearance from the old games.

 

Actually, it was established by the starwars.com lore guru (I think they call him "keeper of the holocron") that Revan was male and the Exile was female. I would actually prefer if they stick with this in a possible KotOR3 (where Revan and the Exile would play secondary roles), since setting the gender and side of two background/cameo characters is a bit silly. As for the physical appearance, I don't think that it's an issue. In fact, if they chose to give them "official" appearances, it would help to better define the characters in future games and lore. It would obviously involve a bit of a retcon, but nobody said that Revan had to keep the same haircut he had in KotOR1.

[The Architect]

I agree with what Prime and RedHawke have said previously.

 

a) Revan and/or the Exile cannot be the main PC/s of KotOR III.

 

b) If KotOR III is a follow up of KotOR and TSL, Revan and the Exile don’t need to make in the flesh appearances for the story to work, however, they can’t be treated like they don’t exist, presuming K3 has anything to do with its predecessors.

 

c) Revan was the PC of KotOR and the Exile was the PC of TSL. Since they aren’t predefined characters, they are almost impossible to bring back. Going canon with Revan and the Exile is simply not on, since it defeats the purpose of playing KotOR and TSL. It’s also unnecessary and lame.

 

The only way to bring Revan and the Exile back in KotOR III, which as I’ve said, isn’t necessary, is to mask them by making them both DS, but still allow the player to select their genders and what their alignments were in KotOR and TSL respectively.

 

Jediphile has this IMO plausible idea where Revan has orchestrated or joined a civil war in the unknown regions between the ‘True Sith’ which would weaken them, delay them from attacking known space and buy his/her allies time, whether they be the Sith, the Jedi, or the Republic, to recover and rebuild from the past decade or so of war they’ve had.

 

Either way, Revan would be masked, and would be the old tactical, inquisitive person he/she once was who was willing to make sacrifices to achieve his/her goals. Why would Revan be this way? It can be argued that since his/her full memories are returning, he/she is going back to the old pre-KotOR Revan. LS Revan would be ‘fake DS’ and DS Revan is already DS.

 

The Exile would do the same thing, wearing the mask and robe of Darth Nihilus. The Exile could change too, if you go by the theory that he/she is a dark manifestation of Darth Nihilus, and would change, if he/she united with that dark self he/she rejected at Malachor V to become whole again and heal the wound but fall to the DS (LS) or become another type of Nihilus (DS).

 

It doesn’t have to be exactly this way, but as you can see, by masking Revan and the Exile and setting their alignment during KotOR III thus ‘changing them’ it is only way to save resources and bring them back in the flesh in KotOR III. Making four completely different characters, creating their dialogue trees, voice acting them and so on is a huge money/time consumer and is something the devs wouldn’t do or wouldn’t like to do.

[SilentScope001]

Actually, it was established by the starwars.com lore guru (I think they call him "keeper of the holocron") that Revan was male and the Exile was female.

 

That's CANON. It has no revelance however, as there is no canon in the KOTOR series (see TSL).

 

The Exile and Revan is whomever we want to be, therefore, no set apperances, no set gender, no set alignment. Nothing is set because it is us, the players, who made it.

[Soogz]

K3 should definately exist. Not just because they need to finish it as a trilogy, but because it should make up for some of the things that were left out of K2.

[DarthMuffin]

That's CANON. It has no revelance however, as there is no canon in the KOTOR series (see TSL).

 

The Exile and Revan is whomever we want to be, therefore, no set apperances, no set gender, no set alignment. Nothing is set because it is us, the players, who made it.

 

The idea behind my post was to point out the fact that it would be silly to make the player define the appearance, gender and allegiance of two characters who will most likely not be the PC or even party members. If they have a semi-important role (i.e. more than a cameo) it would involve too many different plot roads (and therefore time and resources) to cover all the possibilities. The way around this would be to give them a defined personality and appearance, and since canon already has something for them, why not use it?