Challenging Battles?

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Ok, I know KotOR is a CRPG, and that the focus of the game is on the conversations, not on the action. But I say , and probalbly everyone will agree with me, that it should have more difficulty battles on a supposed Kotor III. Why, every "boss" in Kotor II was real easy to defeat, in any class (except for Vrook and Kreia's lighsabers). Kotor I had some difficult battles, more than the second anyway, the player needed to think to battle Malak and his Jedi "hostages".

 

What Im saying, is that the Battles should be more difficulty, but the game would still be a CRPG, just with battles a la Final Fantasy. What you think?

[Jabner]

Lol do you use cheat codes or something because I'm stuck at Darth Nilus. He's hard, and I can't beat him even though I use visas to kill herself with her awesome red lightsaber and darth nilus still ends up killing me at the end. then I need to restart the saved game and start over in his ghost ship. Kotor 3 bosses: less hard!

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Lol do you use cheat codes or something because I'm stuck at Darth Nilus. He's hard, and I can't beat him even though I use visas to kill herself with her awesome red lightsaber and darth nilus still ends up killing me at the end. then I need to restart the saved game and start over in his ghost ship. Kotor 3 bosses: less hard!

 

 

That cant be. Nihilus is one of the easiest Kotor II bosses. Well, if u're having difficulties, just use all ur benign Force Powers into yourself, and the malign ones on him. Dont forget to use your Stims too.

 

Still, I dont agree with you. If you're having a hard time with Nihilus, just see if you can beat any optional boss of Final Fantasy. That's hard!

 

Anyway, I know that people may want this to remain unchanged. So I propose that there should be some optional enemies. They would be really difficulty, at least, more than the ones you face on the main plot.

[Salzella]

depends on how you fight... you can walk most battles if you have at least 2 Jedi, with a Speed boost and Flurry. if, however, you rely on ranged characters, you would not get far methinks. i suppose they have to strike a balance between using Jedi to just walk through everything, and struggling (if that's the way the game turns out) with under powered, under equipped characters.

[KotO[REvan]]

Lol do you use cheat codes or something because I'm stuck at Darth Nilus. He's hard, and I can't beat him even though I use visas to kill herself with her awesome red lightsaber and darth nilus still ends up killing me at the end. then I need to restart the saved game and start over in his ghost ship. Kotor 3 bosses: less hard!

 

Hehe, good ol' Jerrod.

Anyways, I agree with you. They should make the bosses harder, a lot harder. To the point where it takes you the tenth try just to beat them, that's what a fun game is to me.

 

Darth Nihilus was too easy, and having Visas as a sacrifice, weakening Nihilus, is not fun. Darth Sion was a little harder, but I still killed him on my first try. Kreia on the other hand took me about three tries, but she wasn't all that hard (unlike Malak - who seemed impossible until I figured out about the Jedi bodies online).

[jonathan7]

In my opinion all the KotOR bosses were far too easy... I walked them all, the only time I ever struggled with anyone was as a DS Exile vs Vrook and thats long before I started using Mods or KSE. Most of the time I dont even bother changing force or lightsaber forms and still win against whichever and how many foes.

 

So I think the bosses should be harder... Even Malak was easy for me (and I hadnt even twigged you could kill all those suspended Jedi...) Kicked his ass, I didnt even need to use Heal or a medi pack when I fought him. So definatly harder bosses next time! But not too hard I want an epic stuggle that I can beat within 1 or 2 go's, I wouldnt want someone whos really hard to beat!

[Ctrl Alt Del]

What about the optional bosses?

[SilentScope001]

What about the optional bosses?

 

Not for me. All bosses should be focused on the main story. All effort be based on the main story.

 

For me, the hardest boss battle was with Master Vrook. But people complain on how overpowered Vrook was, and they are so disappointed with him. The only way I was able to kill off Vrook was using the Mine strat by HK-47...mine the area and watch Vrook get himself killed off. For some people, this is FUN. Not for me...strong bosses that call me to restart over and over again causes me to have some "un-fun". That's just me, though.

 

How about a little bit harder bosses, but not too much. "KOTOR" diffucilty rather than KOTOR2 difficulty? And no Vrook-like difficulity! (Or, you know, just substitue Darth Nihlius's stats for Vrook's stats. Man, the game would be so much better!)

[KotO[REvan]]

How about a little bit harder bosses, but not too much. "KOTOR" diffucilty rather than KOTOR2 difficulty? And no Vrook-like difficulity! (Or, you know, just substitue Darth Nihlius's stats for Vrook's stats. Man, the game would be so much better!)

 

Also though, Darth Nihilus was only that easy because you had the help from Mandalore and Visas (without mods). If you switched the stats of combat between the two of Vrook and Nihilus, I don't think it would make Vrook much easier since you have to fight solo against him.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Not for me. All bosses should be focused on the main story. All effort be based on the main story.

 

It wouldnt take that much time you're thinking.

 

 

For me, the hardest boss battle was with Master Vrook. But people complain on how overpowered Vrook was, and they are so disappointed with him. The only way I was able to kill off Vrook was using the Mine strat by HK-47...mine the area and watch Vrook get himself killed off. For some people, this is FUN. Not for me...strong bosses that call me to restart over and over again causes me to have some "un-fun". That's just me, though.

 

That's why I suggested real-hard optional bosses: You wouldnt need to face them if u didnt wished to, but if you want real nice items and equipments, you would have to face them anyway.

 

How about a little bit harder bosses, but not too much. "KOTOR" diffucilty rather than KOTOR2 difficulty? And no Vrook-like difficulity!

 

I say more Vrook Like difficulty, and standard bosses a little more difficulty than in Kotor I

(Or, you know, just substitue Darth Nihlius's stats for Vrook's stats. Man, the game would be so much better!)

 

Agreed.

[HerbieZ]

I don't think the battles should be any harder. I think there should be multiple ways around them though. A talker can talk his way through or an expert at defense can wear them down before they start attacking etc. There needs to be more deciding factors instead of hack, slash, repeat.

[SilentScope001]

Also though, Darth Nihilus was only that easy because you had the help from Mandalore and Visas (without mods). If you switched the stats of combat between the two of Vrook and Nihilus, I don't think it would make Vrook much easier since you have to fight solo against him.

 

True. But the prazyalation trick of your two party members would seem a bit too cliched and forced, as well as make it harder for one to kill off Visas by convicing her to murder herself.

 

It would make the game harder to have you face Nihlius alone...but having your two party members be prayalzed would seem forced. But yes, if you were fighting alone, Nihlius would have been a little harder.

 

I don't think the battles should be any harder. I think there should be multiple ways around them though. A talker can talk his way through or an expert at defense can wear them down before they start attacking etc. There needs to be more deciding factors instead of hack, slash, repeat.

 

More Sion-like "will-breaking" minigames, FTW!

[The Architect]

From my point of view, I couldn’t care less if your average mercenary, Dark Jedi, beast or whatever you fight in KotOR III is easy to beat, but when you fight the big bosses, they need to be very hard to beat.

 

For example (this is how I hope KotOR III works), in TSL, Traya, Sion, Nihilus, Kavar, Vrook and Zez-Kai Ell would be the hardest characters in the game to beat. In KotOR, Malak, Bastila, Darth Bandon, Uthar, Yuthura, Jolee and Juhani would be the hardest characters in the game to beat. This is how KotOR III should work, unlike how it was in KotOR and TSL.

 

Part of the problem is how you could just spam overpowered force powers during a battle. I’d like to see a major cool down with force power usage in KotOR III, especially when battling the big gun type of characters in KotOR III.

 

In terms of gameplay, I’d like to see the focus of combat more on the lightsaber, not so much on force powers. Am I asking too much for the gameplay in KotOR III to be more closer to the movies?

 

I’d like to have more traditional lightsaber duels with major enemies in KotOR III, where you and your enemy can’t just spam force powers against each other right in the middle of a lightsaber duel when you’re both not far from one another!

[stoffe]

It would make the game harder to have you face Nihlius alone...but having your two party members be prayalzed would seem forced. But yes, if you were fighting alone, Nihlius would have been a little harder.

 

You could also have all the "zombies" on the bridge jump up from the lower level and attack you when the fight starts, that way Nihilus would not be outnumbered 3 on 1.

 

As for Nihilus vs. Vrook it seems Vrook is stronger physically while Nihilus is stronger in the force and has more health. To a large extent I think the difference in percieved difficulty comes from facing Nihilus much later in the game, where you've managed to collect more powerful gear.

 

Part of the problem is how you could just spam overpowered force powers during a battle. I’d like to see a major cool down with force power usage in KotOR III, especially when battling the big gun type of characters in KotOR III.

 

This could also be accomplished by more forced specialization. In the KotOR games it's pretty easy to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" jedi character who has strong force abilities and is good with a lightsaber. This could be remedied if the differences between classes were more pronounced, so that a guardian would be quite weak in the force but deadly with a lightsaber, while a Consular would have to rely on their force powers to have a chance in a fight (buffs, defenses, offensive).

 

You could, for example, restrict Guardians to only be able to use max 1st tier powers, Sentinels to max 2nd tier powers while only Consulars would have access to all three tiers of powers. On the flip-side Guardians could have better defense, greater chance to hit, special combat moves or perhaps an extra attack/round.

[Arátoeldar]

This could also be accomplished by more forced specialization. In the KotOR games it's pretty easy to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" jedi character who has strong force abilities and is good with a lightsaber. This could be remedied if the differences between classes were more pronounced, so that a guardian would be quite weak in the force but deadly with a lightsaber, while a Consular would have to rely on their force powers to have a chance in a fight (buffs, defenses, offensive).

 

You could, for example, restrict Guardians to only be able to use max 1st tier powers, Sentinels to max 2nd tier powers while only Consulars would have access to all three tiers of powers. On the flip-side Guardians could have better defense, greater chance to hit, special combat moves or perhaps an extra attack/round.

 

This is an excellent idea stoffe. It would force the player to better roleplay their character.

[SilentScope001]

This could also be accomplished by more forced specialization. In the KotOR games it's pretty easy to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" jedi character who has strong force abilities and is good with a lightsaber. This could be remedied if the differences between classes were more pronounced, so that a guardian would be quite weak in the force but deadly with a lightsaber, while a Consular would have to rely on their force powers to have a chance in a fight (buffs, defenses, offensive).

 

You could, for example, restrict Guardians to only be able to use max 1st tier powers, Sentinels to max 2nd tier powers while only Consulars would have access to all three tiers of powers. On the flip-side Guardians could have better defense, greater chance to hit, special combat moves or perhaps an extra attack/round.

 

I concur. It would severly nerf my character, but, yes I concur with it. If someone can create it to become an Uber-Hardcore Mod to be downloaded later on, to make the boss battles harder, I would love it.

 

Just you know, as an optional mod so that after I beat the game once, I can then download the mod. It might make my jack-of-all-trades Jedi a bit too weak, and I could lose. (I play a game not for the challenges but for the story, though "gamists" who love tinkinering with stats would like it!)

 

You could also have all the "zombies" on the bridge jump up from the lower level and attack you when the fight starts, that way Nihilus would not be outnumbered 3 on 1.

 

A very great idea. I should suggest this on the Mod Suggestion board.

[KotO[REvan]]

The crewmen of the Ravanger is a pretty cool idea, that away your character wouldn't be 'forced' to be stunned, like SilentScope said, and they would be too occupied to help you with Nihilus.

 

That's why I suggested real-hard optional bosses: You wouldnt need to face them if u didnt wished to, but if you want real nice items and equipments, u would have to face them anyway.

 

That's a good idea as well, maybe for first time players who just want to see how the game ends. Then second + accounts could be for these bosses.

 

I don't think the battles should be any harder. I think there should be multiple ways around them though. A talker can talk his way through or an expert at defense can wear them down before they start attacking etc. There needs to be more deciding factors instead of hack, slash, repeat.

 

Yes that would be nice as well, but it would be even better if the bosses of the game were harder as well. Just giving different solutions to the match might not be enough for some people (like me).

[Ctrl Alt Del]

You could also have all the "zombies" on the bridge jump up from the lower level and attack you when the fight starts, that way Nihilus would not be outnumbered 3 on 1.

 

 

But that is a excellent idea, Stoffe. I've always wondered why the heck those zombies didnt attacked you. You should request such a mod.

 

 

]That's a good idea as well, maybe for first time players who just want to see how the game ends. Then second + accounts could be for these bosses.

 

You know what? That is what is missing on Kotor.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, I think the difficulty on most enemies/boss(Nihilus not withstanding) is ok, well I actually like it that way for my first play, since I can focus more on the story than the fighting. Now, I do hope for a "REALLY DIFFICULT" setting where enemies are tougher. But that should be an "option" and not something everyone have to do to enjoy the whole story in its entirety.

[Salzella]

This could also be accomplished by more forced specialization. In the KotOR games it's pretty easy to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" jedi character who has strong force abilities and is good with a lightsaber. This could be remedied if the differences between classes were more pronounced, so that a guardian would be quite weak in the force but deadly with a lightsaber, while a Consular would have to rely on their force powers to have a chance in a fight (buffs, defenses, offensive).

 

You could, for example, restrict Guardians to only be able to use max 1st tier powers, Sentinels to max 2nd tier powers while only Consulars would have access to all three tiers of powers. On the flip-side Guardians could have better defense, greater chance to hit, special combat moves or perhaps an extra attack/round.

aye, great idea, though as said, it would arse up my character creation

 

would it not be possible to alter the fighting styles of the bosses depending on your class? for example, if you decided to play through as a Guardian, you would get all these intense lightsabre duels Architect wanted, as a Consular you could 'spam force powers', because to be frank, a Consular would be killed very quickly in a straight lightsabre duel, if we go along with making the bosses harder, and as such, the battles would be balanced depending on which class you play as. not a huge difference, but enough.

 

Another thing, i don't think limiting the force power tiers would be necessary, as for me, one of the best things about reaching the latter stages of these games is the intense feeling of power you get from being able to Force Storm a group of Sith while hacking into a Dark Jedi with Master Flurry. diluting that would dilute that feeling. instead, i think the effect of attributes on gameplay should be made more pronounced. the attributes already have a clear enough impact on how you play, so we just pronounce that a bit, and hey presto, instant balancing (sort of).

[Vaelastraz]

 

This could also be accomplished by more forced specialization. In the KotOR games it's pretty easy to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" jedi character who has strong force abilities and is good with a lightsaber. This could be remedied if the differences between classes were more pronounced, so that a guardian would be quite weak in the force but deadly with a lightsaber, while a Consular would have to rely on their force powers to have a chance in a fight (buffs, defenses, offensive).

 

You could, for example, restrict Guardians to only be able to use max 1st tier powers, Sentinels to max 2nd tier powers while only Consulars would have access to all three tiers of powers. On the flip-side Guardians could have better defense, greater chance to hit, special combat moves or perhaps an extra attack/round.

 

 

That would force me to cheat. In my book Jedi that are strong in the foce are strong in melee combat as well. I couldn't stand playing a PC that soley concentrates on saber or force.

While in most other RPG's I can live with the Warrior-Mage-Thief classes, I don't think it works too well in Kotor...

 

And quite frankly, I don't think that would make the game harder. Not at all. Let's take a look on the Kotor games. Kotor combat is designed to require tactic. You could use the pause, and manage the whole party, using shields, mines, hit and run, disabling forcepowers and such.

Fact is, standard attacks with the PC while your party does whatever suits them is enough to win most battles in both games. Kotor II was actually even easier, because they made the AI worse (ever seen a forcesensitive use some of the potentially lethal DISABLING powers? or any other power than drain?)

 

What the general enemy in Kotor III needs is not more hitpoints. They need an vastly improved AI that makes use of the feats and powers in an intelligent way. Additionally, enemies should have more attack power. They should force the player to use that devensive items, or to stun/disable the enemy to prevent him from doing too much damage.

 

 

Boss battles should (on the highest difficulty) really be a hard challenge. I would like to see bosses that need 5-10 tries before I manage to defeat them.

The battles could be devided into certain "phases", in one for example the boss could use some kind of unique ability that causes a lot of trouble for you...

 

Or bosses become stronger when their hitpoints drop under 15%. Like they get x4 criticals instead of x2 critical then. Which can result in instant kills...

 

The developers should just take a look on other games, there are countless possibilities to improve the game difficulty. But IMO the best would be to improve the AI.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

And quite frankly, I don't think that would make the game harder. Not at all. Let's take a look on the Kotor games. Kotor combat is designed to require tactic. You could use the pause, and manage the whole party, using shields, mines, hit and run, disabling forcepowers and such.

Fact is, standard attacks with the PC while your party does whatever suits them is enough to win most battles in both games. Kotor II was actually even easier, because they made the AI worse (ever seen a forcesensitive use some of the potentially lethal DISABLING powers? or any other power than drain?)

 

Exactly. They (the bosses and all enemies, actually) must force the player to think more before acting. Its turn based, and should stay this. But a little more hours of work developing good AI for the enemies is a must.

 

What the general enemy in Kotor III needs is not more hitpoints. They need an vastly improved AI that makes use of the feats and powers in an intelligent way. Additionally, enemies should have more attack power. They should force the player to use that devensive items, or to stun/disable the enemy to prevent him from doing too much damage.

 

 

Boss battles should (on the highest difficulty) really be a hard challenge. I would like to see bosses that need 5-10 tries before I manage to defeat them.

The battles could be devided into certain "phases", in one for example the boss could use some kind of unique ability that causes a lot of trouble for you...

 

So you do agree with me...

 

Or bosses become stronger when their hitpoints drop under 15%. Like they get x4 criticals instead of x2 critical then. Which can result in instant kills...

 

The developers should just take a look on other games, there are countless possibilities to improve the game difficulty. But IMO the best would be to improve the AI.

 

I get your meaning.

 

Please do not post in chat speak. I have corrected the words. Thanks. -RH

[Titanius Anglesmith]

I would definitely like the boss battles to be harder. The worst thing about the KotOR games is that the bosses are practically no harder to beat than anyone else. There really needs to be more focus on that in K3, because it's really strange when I have more trouble defeating Kelborn in the battle circle than I do defeating Darth Sion.

 

Also, like The Architect said, there should be some kind of "Force power cool-down" to prevent the spamming of Force powers. In lightsaber duels, there should be much more focus on the lightsabers, that is why they're called "lightsaber duels" right? Of course, Consulars can use their "buffin'-up" powers, but they really shouldn't be using attacking powers all that often.

[stoffe]

The collective sentiment of this thread seems to be that Jedi should be very powerful, and that people enjoy playing very powerful characters that wipe the floor with the opposition.

 

At the same time people want battles to be harder and opponents more challenging.

 

This seems to be the core problem with any game letting the player play as a Jedi, since it seems very hard to combine those two desires since they are tied to each other. Jedi are overpowered and should be able to beat most other opponents in a straight fight. Thus combat becomes not all that challenging for the most part. You can't have a powerful, floor-wiping character who's in mortal danger in every fight; then they wouldn't really be powerful, would they? But allow them to use their power, and few enemies stand a chance.

 

Some games try to work around this situation by giving common grunts unrealistic amounts of health, or throwing huge numbers of them at the player, but that only serves to make battles last longer, not make them more interesting. Others try to work around it by adding unrealistic numbers of Sith/(Dark) Jedi who have access to the same toys as the player, but that just turns something that should be rare and special into a common grunt that loses its appeal after a while, and forces "boss" type characters into ever higher levels of munchkinism to stand out over the masses or saber-wielding force users opposing the player.

 

How could the game designers allow the player to play a character providing "the intense feeling of power you get from being able to Force Storm a group of Sith while hacking into a Dark Jedi with Master Flurry", while at the same time making combat a challenge instead of effortless grunt work you do between story advancements and quests? You can't easily give a character capable of holding their own against a powerful Sith Lord or Dark Jedi a challenge while fighting "lesser" opponents, who the majority of the fights in a game by necessity has to be against, unless the game contains very few fights.

[Vaelastraz]

Well you have a point.

 

At higher levels, you should indeed be an unstopable force. Jedi mow through common enemies, that's true, but there is no need for a lvl 10 character to be able to do that.

 

Also, no matter how strong you are, dark jedi opponents could still pose a threat. Every lightsaber duel should be taken serious, even if you're the grand master at it...

 

But still, you're right. You can't be all powerful and have a challenge at the same time. I guess it would be enough to make the "normal" fights more interesting and just a little harder. And that can only be achieved through a better AI.