TSL Vs. KOTOR

[Ctrl Alt Del]

There is a certain je ne sais quoi that makes something a paragon of its particular universe, a quality that makes one point to it and say "THAT'S what the series or show is supposed to look like." ~snipped~

 

 

I really think the same, Allronix, and I think I would use (if it wasnt so long) this post as a sig.

[DreadWizardDM]

K1 all the way! TSL was so poorly written and under-developed due to budgeting and the company wanting a specific launch date. I have other reasons but I digress that to another topic.

[Misty82]

I like KOTOR better.

 

I think the Characters were easier to like, and their stories were more fun to devolve into.

 

True, I haven't beaten TSL yet, but I really don't enjoy it too much. Kreia bugs me, Atton is mental, and Visas and Brianna(the Handmaiden) were the only ones I liked.

 

TSL's storyline confused me. I'm not one for games that require lots of thinking(Three guesses why), and TSL made me think. A LOT. That whole thing about "What happens when you give credits to someone" on Naar Shadaa confused me.

 

KOTOR had more cliffhangers, a more exciting and developed story, and the characters didn't bug me.

 

But that's just my opinion.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

TSL was so poorly written

More like, it had a much more maturely-oriented story and it made people think. It was absolutely not poorly-written, but I guess we all have our different opinions, right?

 

KOTOR had more cliffhangers

Cliffhangers?! Well... I won't give it away if you haven't finished TSL yet.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, TSL is definitely not poorly written, but rather, sometimes poorly implemented, mainly due to the rush.

 

The female romance roptions is quite crappy that leads to nowhere(I don't feel like starting a page about stalker mike here) though the female ending with Visas is quite nice, handmaiden is a bit too shallow/childish for what she is. Well, options are nice, but more things can be added than having your main love interest spill her beans in mostly one section and not much else afterwards.

 

Well, I don't need to tell you how anti-climax Nihilus is. They way he is set up, he should have more screen time, and at least make his final confrontation more unique than what is basically a few whack-whack.

 

The M V section is a bit boring. Once you get into the building its basically endless hack n slash with little meaning, baring the section on Sion. And, The endind is just WTF. You get an old hag which had been supposedly chopped up by lightsaber, and she is telling you stories hours on end. I am not saying they should have one of those grandish endings in kotor1, but AT LEAST make it an ending, not the "Oh look its Ebon Hawk flying away"

 

If anything, TSL needs more polishing. Simply put, Darn you LA for setting such a god forsaken deadline... it would have been a great great game, but now its just a nice game.

[Darth InSidious]

A lot of its problem is that key plot points hang on single lines of dialogue at some points, and if you skip through them...

 

Also, some characters have astoundingly sparse dialogue (Atton and Bao-Dur spring to mind, but the Disciple is also fair game...and most of the NPC's have very, very little.)

 

Also, the end of the game was a rush job. I don't blame Obsidian, but there's no point beating around the bush here. Up until the Trayus Core, it played like a rather second-rate mod, IMO - hack your way to the top of a pile of corpses! Woo! I gained +152354533246564 EXP, two adrenal stims, a medpac and a vibroblade!

[legend222]

I agree with Allronix. Save for Kreia and Visas the party was extremly boring. We don't really know anything about the Exile exept that she (I really hate establishing canon in a RPG) was a general and activated the mass shadow genarator (wich wasn't talked about either). Also Nihilus was a waste of my time it takes me less than a minute to beat him. And we can't avoid the fact that TLS feels unfinished. The ending is lame "You must go were Revan has gone" or something like that. This is obviously done so there can be a siquel but without one the story of KotOR feels unfinished.

 

And off topic why does everyone say Malak is like Vader? The only thing in common is the voice. When you think about it Revan was more similar to Vader. Both are considered the most powerful force users of their time, they both fell to the dark side at the end of major galactic conflicts (the Mandalorian Wars and The Clone Wars), upon turning to the dark side and becoming Sith they went on to kill many Jedi and both would redeem themselves, they share having constructed and lost droids, only to be reunited with them on Tatooine by the will of the Force.

[Jediphile]

Both games have their high and low points.

 

KotOR is very fluid in how the plot evolves and the story hangs together well, which makes for a very enjoyable experience without confusion as to what is happening and why. The game climaxes well throughout the plot also. However, the story is pretty black and white, and as villains go, Malak is pretty cheesy with one of the phoniest evil laughs I've heard yet.

 

TSL has a much deeper and darker plot with far more complex characters. It's also a lot more "grey" in terms of good and evil than its predecessor - no longer are the jedi undeniably benign characters who unquestioningly take responsibility for the fate of the galaxy and search their souls for redemption and resolution. Nor are the Sith completely evil through and through without even the slightest redeeming quality. Looking at Sion, you can sympathize with his hatred of all life. Traya's goal is also very admirable in its desire for freedom from control by the force. Nihilus is the unfathomable and evil unknown, a gothic terror that lurks in the dark, and which you cannot know, because to do so would mean ruin and destruction beyond what mortals can comprehend. TSL, however, suffers from the rushed production schedule and is told badly in places as a result. Things are missing entirely from the plot or told in a confusing way that makes the player uncertain as to what is really happening in the game. You can overcome that by paying extremely close attention to the clues given in the game or by playing it over several times, but the game experience is hurt either way.

 

For these reasons I tend to favor KotOR slightly over TSL, though TSL has the better plot and stronger characterization, because in the end, it is how the story is told and how it builds to its climaxes that makes for the best experience. Still, had TSL not been rushed, KotOR wouldn't have had a prayer in my book.

[The Architect]

And off topic why does everyone say Malak is like Vader?

 

Darth Malak: Sith Lord villain in possession of a super weapon who the male hero canonically (Revan) must stop. He has a mechanical jaw and a metallic sounding voice. He’s linked to the main character of KotOR Revan as Revan was his former master and best friend. The final battle of KotOR is Malak vs. Revan on the super weapon known as the Star Forge.

 

Darth Vader: Sith Lord villain in possession of a super weapon who the male hero Luke must stop. He wears a mechanical suit and has a metallic sounding voice. He’s linked to the main character of the OT Luke as Luke is his son. The final battle of the OT in RotJ is Vader vs. Luke on the super weapon known as the Death Star.

 

Can you see the connection now or not?

 

And Revan is not only like Luke, but he/she is also like Vader, because of the things you and Gavroche have pointed out about him/her.

 

And yes Gavroche, I did indeed leave out the Mission/Zaalbar ‘daring scoundrel/wookiee duo thing’ like Han Solo has with Chewbacca, but I did say the list goes on, so it's all good.

 

Allronix, I admit, I loved KotOR, but you could say in short terms what makes me like TSL more than KotOR is that it introduced original and interesting concepts to Star Wars that its predecessor did not do. While I didn’t mind that KotOR was a blatant rip off of the OT, it should not be done any more. Once is an exception.

 

But if KotOR III is about a Sith Lord with a super weapon like the Death Star or the Star Forge and you’re the strong man/woman with a great destiny destined to stop the bad guy and save the day or rule the galaxy, while adding in the same character archetypes and rip off things that BioWare did, plus a major plot twist sugar coated with clues throughout the story progression, I will be disappointed.

 

We’ve had enough of all that. Obsidian took the KotOR franchise in a new, interesting and exciting direction. Let’s go forwards, not backwards. By the way, although you may have had trouble killing Mission and killed Kreia willingly, it was the other way around for me.

 

For me, Mission was an annoying street rat punk who I would have ditched, if the game had of allowed me to. That, plus the rip off ‘scoundrel/wookiee duo relationship’ that she has with Zaalbar, that was stolen from the Han Solo/Chewbacca scoundrel/wookiee duo relationship made me kill her gladly.

 

So it’s all a matter of preference. While I bet plenty of you hated being forced to kill Mission, surely some of youse like me had no problems killing her. It is just a game after all anyway. And about Kreia? She, in my opinion is the best character in both KotOR games and I would have loved the option to spare her.

 

And what’s this about TSL having boring, shallow characters? Since when does a character not spoon feeding you details about their background equate to poorly written, boring characters? Every party member in TSL has interesting back stories and unique personalities, save one. Disciple.

[legend222]

When I said boring I didn't mean is because they don't spoon feed me their feelings, I simply don't find them that interesting save Visas and Kreia, Atton would have been good too but his backstory didn't fit his character well. Maybe you could pass it off as him hiding that he was a soldier but being an elite Sith assassin is too much. At least in KotOR we can go deeper in the party member's story and solve some of their problems (like Mission's brother or Bastila's mother). The influence system is great and I'm glad I also saw it in Neverwinter Nights 2. Talking to party members is now more realsitic. Some things about the party were weird though, why didn't Mandalore say anything to or about HK, T3 and the Ebon Hawk? Why were the romance options so lame? And why do we have G0-T0 and Decsiple? But I did like the plot of TSL is was darker and more mature but a bit unfinished. If the game was finished it would probably have been as good maybe even better than KotOR.

[The Architect]

Oh my comment wasn’t directed at just you legend222, it was directed at people in general, since there seems to be a misconception that vague details of a characters past equates to a boring and poorly written character, when that is complete and utter bull crap.

 

So fair enough. I agree with you that Kreia and Visas are interesting characters; I agree with you that Disciple is a lame ass character, but I do not agree with you that Kreia and Visas are the only interesting party members in TSL.

 

But hey, who says we have to agree? We all have our opinions, and last time I checked, there is no set criteria for what an interesting character is, since what is interesting to one person may be boring to another, correct?

 

Personally, I don’t see how characters like Bastila, Mission, Zaalbar, Carth and Juhani were so much better than Visas, Brianna, GO-TO, Atton and Bao-Dur. While I’m at it, I’ll reveal my list of party members in KotOR and TSL who I find to be interesting, and those who I don’t find interesting.

 

Party members I found as interesting characters

 

Kreia

Jolee

HK-47 (he was interesting in both games, but slightly more in KotOR if you ask me)

T3-M4 (thanks to TSL)

Canderous (Mandalore) (thanks to KotOR)

Visas

The Handmaiden

Hanharr

GO-TO

Atton

Bao-Dur

 

Party members I did not find as interesting characters

 

Bastila

Carth

Zaalbar

Juhani

Mission

Disciple

Mira

 

Have I left anyone out?

[legend222]

I agree that we all have our opinions but I never said I like all the KotOR characters. There some I don't like, Mission (everyone hates her it seems), T3-M4 (doesn't really do anything) and Zaalbar to name a few. Hm I forgot to say I like HK-47 in my previous posts so... Kreia, Visas, HK The rest I neither like nor hate, exept Desciple. It's just that KotOR feels bit more Star Wars than TSL.

[Diego Varen]

Well, if you like Star Wars to say traditional, you'll prefer KOTOR and if you like Star Wars to change, you'll prefer TSL.

[Jediphile]

I agree that we all have our opinions but I never said I like all the KotOR characters. There some I don't like, Mission (everyone hates her it seems),

 

Nope, not everyone

 

I frequently had Mission in my active group.

 

T3-M4 (doesn't really do anything) and Zaalbar to name a few.

 

True. I rarely use Zaalbar, though I do like him somewhat as a character. T3 is odd though - he was completely useless and boring in KotOR, but was far more interesting in TSL, even if you didn't build him as a tank (which we all did - who am I kidding... )

 

Hm I forgot to say I like HK-47 in my previous posts so...

 

Personally I'm ambivalent about HK. He's bloody funny (literally), but he is also a very hatemongering, cold, callous and psychopathic individual. I do like some nasty characters in sci-fi (like Garak on DS9 or Avon on Blake's 7), but HK isn't very interesting as a character, he just says outrageous things of a hilariously evil nature and that's it.

 

Kreia, Visas, HK The rest I neither like nor hate, exept Desciple. It's just that KotOR feels bit more Star Wars than TSL.

 

I don't care much for Disciple, but unlike lots of people, I don't hate him either. I just find him a little too boring and "goody-goody" for his own good. As a character, I don't think he has much depth.

 

I intensively hate G0T0, but actually in a good way - the sort of hatred that you feel for a really well-written character. G0T0 is cruel and calculating to a fault, but while that makes him an awful person, he's also a very consistent and that makes for a good character. He completely useless but for his backstory, however.

 

Visas and Kreia are both cool and deep characters. Handmaiden would be too, except she's a little too naive for her own good and idolizes the male exile too much. I like Atton, but didn't find his secret quite so shocking. Bao-Dur is an odd character, who seems to carry the weight of the galaxy. I like him a lot, and he's pretty complex too, in his own way.

[legend222]

What I really liked about the party in K1 is that you can help the party members with their personal problems like Carth's son or Canderous (damn! something's wrong with my memory, I like him too) and that mandalorian guy. In TSL you can't really do anything just hear their stories.

 

Mission isn't bad as a character it's just that I find her kind of...useless.

 

HK-47 is funny but I don't use him too often.

 

Desciple is like nerdy moron who has the hots for his teacher (if the Exile is female).

[Salzella]

i'd hardly say they can both be considered lame games. buggy and unpolished but certainly not lame.

[Mathis]

I felt as if I was cheated with the ending! I know Kotor2 had a horrible ending but 1 wasn't much better! I played as a LSM and of course choose Bastila. Well after completing the game I was hoping for how can I say this more of what happened to the characters afterward.

 

Well enough of that I loved this game. Far better storyline and characters.

 

 

What were your guys thoughts on the ending of 1 and 2? Did you want to know what happened to the chars?

 

Merged thread 'Just beat the game....' with this thread. Carry on! --Jae

[Grey Master]

First of all, Welcome to the forums, always happy to see new blood coming.

 

There are like a ton of threads about the ending of kotor 1 and 2, and I fear that the mods will close this one down.

I feel the same way, the game's ending was poor, and it should be fixed!!

[Titanius Anglesmith]

I have to disagree. I think it was a pretty good ending, unless you're talking about the dark side ending. I thought that one left open a huge whole, but as to the light side ending, I've always rather liked it.

[Grey Master]

Both endings were lame, it should have ended with the Exile telling all his/her companions that he/she was staying at Malachor or going after Revan, now thats an ending I like.

[Mathis]

Well I think it would have been better if they showed what happened to your companions in the first.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Both endings were lame, it should have ended with the Exile telling all his/her companions that he/she was staying at Malachor or going after Revan, now thats an ending I like.

Uh... I'm pretty sure he's talking about KotOR I's ending, not TSL's. After all, this is the Republic Newsfeed, and this area is about KotOR I.

 

I do agree that TSL's ending was pretty awful.

[The Source]

TSL and no, you didn't hear me wrong, TSL. KOTOR is overrated and too similar to the Original Trilogy. TSL was different, better characters, better Sith (Except Nihilus), longer gameplay and better PC. Yes, I know TSL is incomplete, but it is still better for me, in my opinion. KOTOR is good, but not as good as its underrated sequel.

 

KOTOR is overrated and too similar to the Original Trilogy.

That is why I believe it was the better of the two. I loved KotOR I more so than TSL. KotOR II felt too dull and uninspiring. There were no epic anything, and the ending didn't feel cinematic or filling. When it comes to KotOR I, I find it more rewarding, finished storyarch, and fun. That is my opinion.

 

TSL was longer gameplay.

TSL was extremely shorter than KotOR II.

 

I personally believe that TSL had no inspiring storyarch. I didn't feel the sence of closure, success, or justice. I don't like buying games with no cinematic and rewarding endings. Gr... Games are like movies, and they need to give the gammer a sence of accomplishment. KotOR II failed to give me the sence of success, and I didn't feel like the Exile had anything to contribute to the KotOR saga.

 

At the moment, I am playing NWN2. If the ending is as hollow or incomplete as KotOR II, I will not buy another Obsidian game ever again.

[Emperor Devon]

I do agree that TSL's ending was pretty awful.

 

I disagree. It seemed quite sensible IMO - how else could it really have ended? The three Sith Lords are dead and there's a bigger threat in the Unknown Regions. Going off to fight it would seem the most logical thing to do.

 

That's basically like KotOR's, really - the bad guy is dead, the Republic's been temporarily saved, and the hero's still in one peace. The only difference is how flashy it was at the end and the promise is of a sequel, but enough of one for TSL to still feel like it's own chapter in the saga.

 

Anyway, I don't think having a large crowd of 2-dimensional clones clap while the PC gets a spray-painted tinfoil medal is much of a reason to label TSL as inferior. If found the plot to be superior in all respects - it had far more depth than KotOR's did, didn't rely on one twist to make it good, introduced new concepts to Star Wars, and made the PC be someone with an interesting backstory rather than a totally characterless and nameless Jedi for 2/3rds of the game. Kreia was also the most interesting party member in both games, and an infinitely superior villain to Malak - I mean, other than how he reminds us of Darth Vader he's an almost characterless villain that laughs whenever he hears of someone's imminent doom. He has an ego the size of the Star Forge, too. Not too original. I found that fan fiction at KFM provided him with a more interesting background than what was seen in the game.

 

Kreia goes down as a classic bad guy IMO. She was a lot of things, but new was definitely one of them. She's a character who "fell" from the dark side to absolute nihilism, came up with an elaborate plot to destroy the Force of all things for reasons other than being power hungry (there's tons of SW villains with lengthy schemes, but how many have done it for personal reasons rather than just wanting power?) mentored the PC, provided very interesting conversation... how much better can you get? There's tons of complaints about how characterless Nihilus and Sion were, but I think Kreia more than offsets them. How those characters could make her less of one and make a completely 2-d "I will rule the world!" bad guy superior I can't even guess.

 

The plot had far more depth. Not only were there more interesting bad guys, but the story itself had a much darker feel and a constant air of mystery about it. Your character is constantly stalked by evil assassins, and there are constant questions - where did Revan go, what really happened to the PC at Malachor, who leads the Sith, what's happening to the Republic, are any of the answers really the answer, etc. Everything was in question, and even the answers to those didn't feel entirely true. There was a much darker and more desperate feeling to the game than in KotOR I, and the plot was constantly shifting as your PC tried to find answers to those questions. It felt much more unstable, per say, than in KotOR - the HK-50's, Goto, Atris, the Jedi, the Sith, the Republic, Kreia, all had some goal of their own that you could never be entirely sure of, yet that felt like only the surface of the whole matter. Which it turned out to be - the true Sith were an excellent revelation in how they were the reason behind all the events of both games. Finding out the real reason Revan attacked the Republic was simply superb.

 

Compare that to your typical Jedi who gets several weeks worth of training before running off to blow up a big space station. Far less intriguing than TSL's story.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love KotOR I and think it had a very entertaining story - but it simply wasn't at the level of quality TSL's was. Anyway, my peeve is that people decide it counts for less than KotOR's just because the ending had less flash to it.

[The Source]

The design of KotOR II was better, but I personally believe that the story suffers. I am drawing from the fact that Kreia says, "You are an echo." I don't care about their explination, but being called an 'echo' takes away from the character. I took it as, "you are nothing."