Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?

[Allronix]

This was brought up on KOTOR Fanmedia, and I thought it would be a good idea to bring it here for your debate and consideration:

 

Should Revan be put on trial and/or executed by the Republic Senate for the crimes committed during her tenure as a Sith Lord?

 

From the perspective of most anyone outside of the Jedi Order or Ebon Hawk crew, it wouldn't be a matter of whether PC!Revan was a different person or not. Thing is, someone's got to pay. The Jedi Order is still in PR hot water from the Exar Kun and then Mandalorian War, and NOW they fail to "curb their dogs" again. A lot of Senators, both with the best of intent, and the ones who see a career goldmine, will go charging after it like rancors at a buffet. The people will be calling for blood - more like a LOT of people's blood.

 

Revan? Death sentence for War Crimes. Bidding war over the execution will start at noon and last for the next decade.

 

The argument for executing Revan? Well, the old canard about "bringing closure to the families" and "justice for the victims who were killed in such a brutal manner" and "Why should Revan live when (my spouse/child/kin/planet/pet gizka) is dead because of her?" She took the life of innocent Republic citizens, so her life should and MUST be taken in exchange. There's also the message that the Republic would send against sessionist movements (we will kill you if you try to leave the Union) and the deterrent argument ("We spared Ullic, and Revan happened. If we kill Revan, it will deter the next idiot Force user who wants to be Sith Lord"). There's also the idea some would have that executing Revan (and possible outlawing of the Jedi) would finally close that bloody chapter of the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars and allow the Republic to build a new future.

 

Oh, you killed Malak, and brought down the Star Forge? Whoop-de-doo. You caused the mess in the first place.

 

You're on the Light Side and a Jedi Knight now? Well, you were one in the Mandalorian wars, and look what happened. Still better to kill you than gamble it'll happen again. Besides, your death will bring the Republic peace, and Jedi can't argue with that - they die for the Republic all the time.

 

You say you remember nothing and you're a different person now? Well, nothing personal. One Jedi's life compared to millions for whom Revan's blood is the only thing that will slake their thirst...and even if you can't remember it, you still did the crime.

[SilentScope001]

From the perspective of most anyone outside of the Jedi Order or Ebon Hawk crew, it wouldn't be a matter of whether PC!Revan was a different person or not.

 

Even then, there could be an argument over if you are the same person. I'm using Locke's definition of a person here...

 

Revan: "But I forgot! I'm a different person!"

 

Locke: "Well, techincally, you remembered parts of the past, when you were Revan, right?"

 

Revan: "Yeah but...I had to be prompted first. It took time, and people had to tell me that I was Revan before I put the pieces together."

 

Locke: "You see, personality is dependant on your consisusness, or ability to remember. If you do not remember that you were Revan, then it did not matter if you had Revan's body, you are not Revan. But you remembered you were Revan. You have the memories of Revan. Therefore, you are Revan."

 

Vrook: "Wait! We already killed Revan!"

 

Revan: "You did?"

 

Vrook: "Yes! By mindwiping you, we got rid of your memories."

 

Locke: "Then how come did Revan gained them back?"

 

Vrook: "Er.."

 

Locke: "Since he has the memories of him being Revan, he is Revan and should be punished."

 

Revan: "You mean, I was not Revan...UNTIL I gained those memories."

 

Locke: "That is correct. Now that you have those memories, you are Revan."

 

Revan "hits" his head on the wall.

 

Revan: "Owww! It seems that I suddenly forgotten everything that has happened to me before the Endar Spire."

 

Locke: "Really? Then you are not Revan anymore."

 

Revan: "Who's Revan?"

 

Locke and Vrook: "Excellent!"

---

To be serious, I think few people, if any, ever knew the full story of Revan's mindwiping and redemeption. All the Jedi Order has to do is cover up the whole story of Revan, and have the false personality of Revan take the credit. Nobody has to know that Bobby, war hero of the Republic, is actually Revan. Therefore, no reason to execute him. Besides, Bastila would take credit for murdering Revan on the Star Forge years before. All Bobby would do is take credit for the murdering of Malak.

 

Disciple also said another view that could be prevelant: Revan was captured, brought towards the Council. Mical did not know what the Council said to Revan, but it worked. Revan was redeemed, and he destroyed Malak. Due to the fact that redemeption is a key part of the Jedi Code, Revan is inelgible for the death penalty, or even imprisonment, since he is redeemed, and therefore, did penance for his crime.

 

Not to mention that could be yet another reason why Revan fled to the Unknown Regions, to avoid the lynch mobs.

[EnIgmA_XX]

^^^ Of course SilentScope001, all of your reasons are good and well thought out, and I think that many people in this forum will disagree with the Republic's attempts at Revan's execution, but I'd have to say otherwise. Firstly, the Jedi Order and the few people that know that "Jack or Jane or whoever", is actually Revan will not be able to keep it. a secret. Why? He/she is now a galactic superstar, not just some republic soldier anymore. We've seen it happen to celebrities all the time, basically, the media jumps on them. they dig out eveery useless bit of info they can get on them, from what style of clothing they wear to what they ate for breakfast 4 days ago. Eventually, they will find out, and the republic citizens will be very, very, unhappy that their hero was actually the one that killed their son/daughter/sister/brother/mom/dad/etc. You might say that this is unjustified because he/she's redeemed, but let's put it in perspective.

 

Let's say, we find, umm, Sadam the leader of Iraq (did i spell that right?) and he hit his head while he was hiding in a cave and forgot who he was and the fact that he is reponsible for thousands, maybe millions of deaths in the world. He believes that he's completely against Sadam, and so he sneaks into Iraq prisons where people are held captive by Sadam and frees them. Eventually, he's found and brought to trial, but not before he's freed, maybe several thousand people (i know this isn't realistic, but bear with me). I don't know about you; but is anyone really going to care that he forgot everything? Sure, maybe some sympathetic, open minded people will care, but what about the million or so people that died at his hands? what about them? Will they care? of course not. If my parents were killed by him, and he is found and randomly says thhat he can't remember a thing, will i believe this murderer? would i really care? he killed my parents, and maybe, uh, let's say made prisoners of a whole bunch of my relatives, so honestly if i were in this hypothetical position, i wouldn't care whether he remembers or not. I don't even care if he freed Iraqi prisoners, because guess who put them there? I want him dead, NOW. I hope you all understand, but i won't let this murderer live.

 

Now, back to Revan. the people that will want blood will probably be people that lost relatives at his/her hands. considering that quite a few worlds were destroyed by Revan, that translates into a lot of people. What would you do? he/she killed Malak, but that was his/her fault to begin with, and he/she wasn't even able to clean up the entire mess. In the end what would you do? i know what i'd do, and i don't care if people flame me for it. If Revan killed my family, i have him/her dead. hopefully you all understand.

[stoffe]

The only non-Jedi/Sith who knows Darth Revan wasn't killed by Bastila, as the "official version" claims, would be Carth, Canderous, Zaalbar and Mission (and possibly Admiral Dodonna). None of them strike me to be very likely to rat Revan out, and of them only Carth's word would probably carry any real weight and chance of being taken seriously by the Republic. And the Jedi Order tend to deal with their internal affairs themselves without involving Republic law enforcement, while the Sith remnants could hardly be trusted to tell the truth; they could just be trying to get revenge on the Republic hero who ruined their plans.

 

Though if the Republic somehow would become convinced that <FullName> is in fact Revan, then I can see something like putting Revan on trial for High Treason happening. And they will then remind the amnesiac Revan why she did what she did in the first place: try to rid the Republic of its corrupt leadership, its the backstabbing and self-serving leaders .... where too many senators serve themselves first, their family/clan second, their home planet third and the good of the Republic itself a distant fourth if at all. Where organized crime can operate openly on a large scale if just some credits finds its way into the right pockets. Where no one can agree on anything of importance. Where the leadership only take action when their own lives and privileges are threatened, at which time it could well be much too late against a determined enemy.

 

This might cause Revan to give it another try, though with different methods this time, since the Republic would have a hard time capturing her without the aid of the (heavily decimated) Jedi Order.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, thing being no one outside of the Jedi OIrder knows what Revan looks like, and it is unlikely that the republic would think Revan is indeed alive and protected by the Jedis.

 

As for the Sith. Sure a small minority might suspect, but why would anyone mention it? Those who are in the know can be trusted not to say a thing, either that or they join the Lightsaber Express Early Retirement. The idea of Revan being alive may split the Sith Empire in pieces. Even Darth(boo-hiss) Bandon does not know.

 

The unlikely case of "Revan Lives" rumor might be seen as words of Fanatics, just like how every Tuesday Elvis shops at Walmart now.

[Bee Hoon]

The Jedi may even protect Revan to uphold their belief in redemption. It wouldn't be very nice to let Revan clean up his/her own mess, then turn around and execute him/her, would it? Regardless, it's not something that would happen because most of the galaxy thinks Revan is dead anyway.

[SilentScope001]

The unlikely case of "Revan Lives" rumor might be seen as words of Fanatics, just like how every Tuesday Elvis shops at Walmart now.

 

The only people that do know that Revan is in fact alive who we meet in TSL are: Carth, Bastila, Atton (he asks you about the rumors if Revan takes over the Empire or redeems himself at Peragus), Disciple (he talks about Revan getting redeemed) Zeek-Kal, Kreia, Sion ("He had a chance to heal this broken galaxy...and he turned away"), The Exile (He tells to Zek-Kael that Revan was redeemed to the LS when trying to convince Zek-Kael to come to Dantoonie)...

 

For a secret, it isn't exactly best-kept. From all of that list, three non-Jedi found out: Exile, Atton, and Disciple. It seems that if they know...others may know as well.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Oh, yeah, well I guess that it's not 100% sure that the republic will find out the truth about Revan. i always just assumed that everyone would figure out eventually. i mean, they could check Revan's records, or maybe one of the officers that served with Revan got a good look at his/her face, or a whole bunch of other things. As well, Atton knows that Revan's alive. As he said on Peragus, there were rumours flying everywhere, and when you tell him what "rumor" you heard, none of the choices are that Revan died. therefore i thought that nobody thinks Revan is dead since there is no corresponding rumour. I think that my most important point though is that Atton knows that Revan is still out there. this is important because Atton isn't really anyone special at the time of the JCW. he was a secial ops soldier, but he was still just a soldier, and he wasn't even fighting during the last part of the war. considering that he knows that Revan is alive, i think that it was common knowledge to the galaxy.

[PoiuyWired]

By the time of TSL, there might by stories of Revan working to destroy the starforge or something similar, like DS Revan destroying stuff by starforge, Whatever it is, Revan is long gone to the Unknown Regions, and its the least of the republic's worry. More like, they know that if Revan is back to play with then, they are basically fcked anyways.

 

Thing is, after the things Revan/PC do in kotor1, many parties would put the pieces together.

[Nancy Allen``]

If you look at Star Wars redemption plays a very large part. Revan, Carth, Bastila, Canderous, Juhani, Jolee, the Exile, Atton, Mira, Visas, there's the option for Atris and even Malek to find redemption before death. Same for the whole Star Wars saga, we have Anakin, Han, Kyle, Jan, Mara and others who redeem themselves to some measure. For Revan to be tried, convicted and executed, it's a great idea, and in the more billigerent universe of Sith Lords is something that could work, especially with Manaan. But it would probably fly in the face of redemption.

[PoiuyWired]

Jan/Han in redemption? How?

 

Well, if the Jedis at the time can hide Ulic Well(somewhat) from most people then hiding Revan should not be a problem. My feeling is that old time Jedis are more involved in politics, being advisors and what not. So their words weight more politically back in the days. It is easier to hide someone if needed.

[EnIgmA_XX]

By the time of TSL, there might by stories of Revan working to destroy the starforge or something similar, like DS Revan destroying stuff by starforge, Whatever it is, Revan is long gone to the Unknown Regions, and its the least of the republic's worry. More like, they know that if Revan is back to play with then, they are basically fcked anyways.

 

Thing is, after the things Revan/PC do in kotor1, many parties would put the pieces together.

 

Yes, Revan is gone, but it wouldn't take 5 years to have all those rumours conjured up. more like only a few months. this still leaves plenty of time for suicidal extremists to try something...

 

I also know that something like Revan's execution isn't exactly "Star Wars-ish", and i realise that redemtion is one of the most prominent themes in Star Wars. I just feel that there should be a point you pass where you can't really be redeemed anymore. sure, if a person stole something of mine, or even killed someone, they can be redeemed. i just think this applies after your kill count gets to the 1 million mark or so. seriously, that isn't a joke. i mean, if i killed a million people, how could anyone forgive me? why in the world would i even deserve it? anyway, that just my opinion; that Revan kinda deserves to die. is it truly fair? maybe, maybe not. Would the people want it, and does Revan have it coming to him/her? definitely.

[Nancy Allen``]

Jan/Han in redemption? How?

 

Jan Ors and Han Solo were, from memory, Imperials. With Han in particular we see him grow as a character: even if he does rescue Wookies on Kashyykk or doing jobs for the Rebels it's purely for profit, no care for their cause. When we first meet him he's shown to be beligirent, having a past in piracy and smuggling, have no problem with killing and is basically in it for the money, yet he does realise what they're doing is important when he decides to help out against the Death Star. His character grows further later, even with a price on his head Han stays with the Rebels for as long as he can, until being spooked enough to have to leave to deal with it, but is drawn back with his friends are threatened.

 

With the idea of going beyond redemption, I think part of it has to do with recognising the wrong you have done. I'm not sure how much of this there was with Revan, but Sith Lords is full of them with the Exile being able to say it was wrong to go to war, to defy the Jedi, and she nets herself big light side points for doing so. Even justifying the war can be light sided, only by being Mandalorian or Sith like is this not the case. We see this elsewhere as well. Vader redeemed himself by killing Palpatine, who was the personification of unrepentant evil. Vader's reign lasted for a good quarter of a century, where as Revan only lasted a couple of years, going by the canon light side ending, and if you accept that Revan was trying to keep the Republic intact, just wipe away the weak and bolster the galaxy against the coming threat, then Malek did considerably more damage.

[Jediphile]

This was brought up on KOTOR Fanmedia, and I thought it would be a good idea to bring it here for your debate and consideration:

 

Should Revan be put on trial and/or executed by the Republic Senate for the crimes committed during her tenure as a Sith Lord?

 

From the perspective of most anyone outside of the Jedi Order or Ebon Hawk crew, it wouldn't be a matter of whether PC!Revan was a different person or not. Thing is, someone's got to pay.

 

Nonsense. "Someone's got to pay" is NOT a sound legal argument, since it implies that someone must be held responsible regardless of whether they're guilty or not. That's mob mentality and revenge, not justice.

 

The Jedi Order is still in PR hot water from the Exar Kun and then Mandalorian War, and NOW they fail to "curb their dogs" again. A lot of Senators, both with the best of intent, and the ones who see a career goldmine, will go charging after it like rancors at a buffet. The people will be calling for blood - more like a LOT of people's blood.

 

Perhaps, but again, that's the mob talking. Public opinion has and should have no sway in a court of law. A court has to consider the question of whether guilt can be applied to a person and whether that person can be held accountable for the charges brought against him or her. What the people want is irrelevant. We don't put the question of guilt or innocence for someone accused of a horrible crime to a vote, for example.

 

The argument for executing Revan? Well, the old canard about "bringing closure to the families" and "justice for the victims who were killed in such a brutal manner" and "Why should Revan live when (my spouse/child/kin/planet/pet gizka) is dead because of her?" She took the life of innocent Republic citizens, so her life should and MUST be taken in exchange.

 

That's vengeance. Pure and simple. It has no place in a court of law.

 

There's also the message that the Republic would send against sessionist movements (we will kill you if you try to leave the Union) and the deterrent argument ("We spared Ullic, and Revan happened. If we kill Revan, it will deter the next idiot Force user who wants to be Sith Lord"). There's also the idea some would have that executing Revan (and possible outlawing of the Jedi) would finally close that bloody chapter of the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars and allow the Republic to build a new future.

 

Oh, you killed Malak, and brought down the Star Forge? Whoop-de-doo. You caused the mess in the first place.

 

There are extenuating circumstances, though. The republic would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. If we're going to argue lives lost, then lets also consider what the outcome would have been, if Revan had not done what he did. That outcome is: Mandalorians win the war, the republic is no more, thousands if not millions more killed in futile resistance, and all republic citizens enslaved by the Mandalorians or maybe even the true Sith. Revan's choices may have led to horrible losses, but it was indeed the lesser of two evils, who could not both be avoided. Revan also saved millions by his choices. That must be taken into account as well, as must the fact of the millions that would have been lost, had he done nothing (like the jedi council...).

 

You're on the Light Side and a Jedi Knight now? Well, you were one in the Mandalorian wars, and look what happened. Still better to kill you than gamble it'll happen again.

 

No, you cannot condemn someone for what they MIGHT do. By that argument, you should put all force-sensitives to death, since they all have the potential to fall to the dark side and become Sith. You can hold people responsible only for what they have actually done in the past or the present.

 

Besides, your death will bring the Republic peace, and Jedi can't argue with that - they die for the Republic all the time.

 

You cannot condemn someone for the people's peace of mind. By that logic, we should put anyone hugely disliked by popular opinion to death regardless of whether they have committed crimes or merely enraged people. The latter is what they did to Socrates. To suggest this as an argument for killing Revan is support of that principle, which simply puts public opinion in the place of a modern oppressor. That has nothing to do with truth or justice.

 

You say you remember nothing and you're a different person now? Well, nothing personal. One Jedi's life compared to millions for whom Revan's blood is the only thing that will slake their thirst...and even if you can't remember it, you still did the crime.

 

No, Mission Vao is correct. Whatever Revan did before, that was a different person than who he is now. Also, if Revan has no knowledge or understading of past crimes, then he is not mentally capable to stand trial for crimes he does not know or remember to have committed.

 

Besides, even if Revan did the crimes he is accused of, there are extenuating circumstances. Revan did not realise the effect Malachor V would have on him. That effect overpowered him and made him fall to the dark side. Since Malachor V has since been found to be a place horribly strong with the dark side of the force, Revan cannot be held accountable for that, since he did not know that at the time. Everything Revan did after that was due to falling to the dark side, which is akin to temporary insanity for a jedi, and for which he therefore cannot be held accountable either.

 

Finally, Revan has demonstrated remorse and tried to atone for past crimes, even if he has no recollection of them. That should also be taken into consideration before a verdict is reached.

[The Architect]

This was brought up on KOTOR Fanmedia, and I thought it would be a good idea to bring it here for your debate and consideration:

 

Should Revan be put on trial and/or executed by the Republic Senate for the crimes committed during her tenure as a Sith Lord?

 

From the perspective of most anyone outside of the Jedi Order or Ebon Hawk crew, it wouldn't be a matter of whether PC!Revan was a different person or not. Thing is, someone's got to pay.

 

What? Why? Are you suggesting that someone must be held accountable in spite of whether they're guilty or not? Talk about lack of righteousness.

 

The Jedi Order is still in PR hot water from the Exar Kun and then Mandalorian War, and NOW they fail to "curb their dogs" again. A lot of Senators, both with the best of intent, and the ones who see a career goldmine, will go charging after it like rancors at a buffet. The people will be calling for blood - more like a LOT of people's blood.

 

Yeah, but so what? The views of the community shouldn’t have any influence in a court of law. A proper court of law isn’t supposed to show bias. Remember that a court is supposed to think about the issue of whether guilt can actually be applied to a person or not (like their mental state for example), and whether that person can actually be held liable for the charges brought against him or her.

 

As Jediphile has said; what the public want is irrelevant in a court of law. For example, do you put the question of guilt or innocence on someone whose only been accused of committing a horrible crime to a vote? No, you don’t.

 

Revan? Death sentence for War Crimes. Bidding war over the execution will start at noon and last for the next decade.

 

Executing Revan won’t bring all those people he/she was responsible for the death of back, will it? What would you gain from executing him/her?

 

The argument for executing Revan? Well, the old canard about "bringing closure to the families" and "justice for the victims who were killed in such a brutal manner" and "Why should Revan live when (my spouse/child/kin/planet/pet gizka) is dead because of her?" She took the life of innocent Republic citizens, so her life should and MUST be taken in exchange.

 

There's also the message that the Republic would send against sessionist movements (we will kill you if you try to leave the Union) and the deterrent argument ("We spared Ullic, and Revan happened. If we kill Revan, it will deter the next idiot Force user who wants to be Sith Lord"). There's also the idea some would have that executing Revan (and possible outlawing of the Jedi) would finally close that bloody chapter of the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars and allow the Republic to build a new future.

 

Oh, you killed Malak, and brought down the Star Forge? Whoop-de-doo. You caused the mess in the first place.

 

You could argue that the Republic would have been screwed if Revan didn’t go to war. The Mandalorians certainly seem to think so anyway. So does Kreia, and many others. Okay, now let’s assume that the Republic would have fallen if Revan hadn’t gone to war.

 

Now, the Mandalorians are victorious, the Republic is nonexistent, approximately tens of millions of people are killed in vain resistance, and all people of the Republic have been enslaved by the Mandalorians. Heck, even the True Sith might come into play in this scenario.

 

Sure, Revan caused the deaths of millions, if not billions of innocents (and that is not okay) but Revan’s actions also saved millions, perhaps billions of lives. Revan’s case is like a coin. It has two sides: a good side and a bad side.

 

And if you want to use the “loss of lives” argument, think of all the lives that would’ve been lost if Revan didn’t go to war, like the Jedi Council, consisting mainly of dogmatic, hypocritical morons.

 

You're on the Light Side and a Jedi Knight now? Well, you were one in the Mandalorian wars, and look what happened. Still better to kill you than gamble it'll happen again.

 

By that illogical rationale, you might as well just kill everyone who has the potential to become a powerful Dark Jedi or Sith. Where’s the justice in that?

 

Besides, your death will bring the Republic peace, and Jedi can't argue with that - they die for the Republic all the time.

 

Once again, by that illogical rationale, you might as well just kill anyone (whether they have committed horrendous crimes or not) who will bring the Republic peace. What, so anyone who is unpopular with the Republic should be killed? Are you serious? Where’s the genuineness and fairness in making the public a persecutor?

 

You say you remember nothing and you're a different person now? Well, nothing personal. One Jedi's life compared to millions for whom Revan's blood is the only thing that will slake their thirst...and even if you can't remember it, you still did the crime.

 

Hmm, it depends on if Revan has any knowledge or understanding of the crimes he/she committed in the past or not. If not, then he/she isn’t mentally capable of standing trial for crimes he/she doesn’t identify or remember to have committed. If so, then yes, Revan could stand trial.

 

No, Mission Vao is correct. Whatever Revan did before, that was a different person than who he is now. Also, if Revan has no knowledge or understading of past crimes, then he is not mentally capable to stand trial for crimes he does not know or remember to have committed.

 

Besides, even if Revan did the crimes he is accused of, there are extenuating circumstances. Revan did not realise the effect Malachor V would have on him. That effect overpowered him and made him fall to the dark side. Since Malachor V has since been found to be a place horribly strong with the dark side of the force, Revan cannot be held accountable for that, since he did not know that at the time. Everything Revan did after that was due to falling to the dark side, which is akin to temporary insanity for a jedi, and for which he therefore cannot be held accountable either.

 

So in other words, Revan was like a possessed demon? I’m not so sure that Revan didn’t know what effect Malachor V would have on him/her though. We don’t know if Revan intentionally fell (sacrificed) himself/herself to the dark side or not.

 

If it was a sacrifice, doesn’t this imply that Revan knew what effect Malachor V would have on him/her, or that it would at least turn him/her to the dark side? I think that if the fall was intentional, and Revan remembers the crimes of the past he/she committed, then he/she should stand trial.

 

Finally, Revan has demonstrated remorse and tried to atone for past crimes, even if he has no recollection of them. That should also be taken into consideration before a verdict is reached.

 

Hehe, that depends. The canon Revan showed remorse and tried to atone for his/her past crimes I assume, but my canonical Revan was such a big jerk that he/she was actually proud of the fact that he/she was an ex-Dark Lord of the Sith who committed horrible acts!

[jonathan7]

I'll keep my post short and sweet;

 

Q. Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?

 

A. No.

[mjpb3]

The biggest problems I have with this whole argument about Revan's "blame" and possible "execution" are:

 

1.) Why in the seven hells would you even consider killing off one of the--if not THE--most powerful force user in the galaxy in the first place? Seems like a very stupid idea to me. Think of everything Revan could accomplish as a lightsider and weigh that against simply killing her off. Yes, very stupid idea to me indeed.

 

2.) I can understand that many would want Revan executed as a possible deterrant to those who would possibly follow in Revan's footsteps in falling to the darkside, but if the Republic were to go around executing fallen Jedi, then where does it ever stop? If you punish one Jedi for *gasp* falling to the darkside then who is to say that the Republic won't next start executing simple force-sensitives, because the lure of the darkside is on them as well. If Revan is ever executed for something she possibly doesn't even remember in the first place, then where does it all end?

 

Besides, I don't think it would be in the best interest of the Republic, publicity-wise, to execute the savior of the galaxy. So she may have started the whole mess in the first place, so what? She is also the one who saved the galaxy from Malak, so that has to count for something or else the whole redemption theme from KotOR is lost along the way...

 

Plus, as soon as she is taken--in the guise of another personality altogether who DOES NOT remember being Revan anymore--as an apprentice in the Jedi Order on Dantooine, she shouldn't even be under Republic jurisdiction anymore anyway.

[Allronix]

Never said it was justice. Kinda like the Sunry case. No one ever said the Senate was just or that democracy can't degenerate into mob rule in a Nar Shadaa minute over something like this. "Someone has to pay" may be the worst kind of extra-legal justification, but how many times has someone been offered up or locked away as the fall guy for a political scandal or unsolved crime?

 

Revan could have Light Side mastery and sweat Solari crystal...but you think it'll matter to say, the Handmaiden (who lost her father to Revan) or to Atris (already drowning in "righteous" rage)? How about the folks on Telos other than Carth, or the folks who don't know and don't care if there's a difference between Jedi and Sith?

 

David Brin is one of Star Wars's most savage critics, part because of the argument over the redemption of "demigods" like Vader and Revan.

 

"[Vader] murders billions with the press of a button -- but none of those casualties matters next to the personal saga of a great one. The slaughtered victims are mere minions. Extras, without families or hopes to worry about shattering. Spear-carriers. Only the demigod's personal drama is important...It may sound silly, but that's exactly the lesson taught by "Return of the Jedi," wherein Darth Vader is forgiven all his sins, because he saved the life of his own son."

 

I can only imagine the snark he would reserve for Revan if he hasn't already sounded off on the topic.

 

Nonsense. "Someone's got to pay" is NOT a sound legal argument, since it implies that someone must be held responsible regardless of whether they're guilty or not. That's mob mentality and revenge, not justice.

 

Again, never said it was anything but. Vengance isn't justice - not by a long shot. While Justice is supposed to be blind and impartial, Her scales tilt and Her blindfold lifts all the time. Killing a LS Revan would essentially being putting an innocent person to death, since the person that took down Malak has only the most tenuous connections to being Revan.

 

However, if word leaks out about Revan (apparantly has, judging by K2), do you really think the average Joe of the Republic wouldn't be calling for her head on a spit? Do you think anyone outside the Ebon Hawk would actually believe Revan's someone else now? Mission may believe it - even Carth comes to believe it, but they see that new person up close and personal and befriended her before they knew. Someone off the street who hasn't seen the new person would not have reason to believe it at all, and would probably call it the lamest excuse in the book.

 

 

There are extenuating circumstances, though. The republic would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. If we're going to argue lives lost, then lets also consider what the outcome would have been, if Revan had not done what he did.

 

They can call Revan a hero for ending the war. Revan's getting medals and honors for what she did in the War, bloody as it was. The conduct afterwards is what will be challenged. And what about the Republic military? Revan and Malak did not formally resign their commissions. They went AWOL and came back as invaders. At the very least, we're talking treason.

 

Should Revan's crimes be forgiven on the basis of her alleged importance? Can or should they be forgiven at all?

 

No, you cannot condemn someone for what they MIGHT do. By that argument, you should put all force-sensitives to death, since they all have the potential to fall to the dark side and become Sith.

 

The Empire did just that. Crossing universes, we get the Psi-Corps and what the Alliance did to River. We get the Mutant Registration and the Civil War plots of Marvel. The Republic could easily argue that, for the safety of billions, that these handful must be regulated, watched, drugged, or studied. Again citing Brin, "A true science fiction author who wrote about Superman would have earthling scientists ask the handsome Man of Steel for blood samples (even if it means scraping with a super fingernail) in order to study his puissant powers, and maybe bottle them for everyone."

 

DEFINITELY not justice, and sure as hell not a pretty picture, but one that could be pursued very easily.

 

Executing Revan won’t bring all those people he/she was responsible for the death of back, will it? What would you gain from executing him/her?

 

No, it won't. In reality, I'm an activist against the death penalty, and was a dedicated anti-war marcher even before 9/11. In SW, I would probably be sporting a "Free Revan" bumper sticker on my speeder. However, I am also something of a cynic. I wondered if Revan fled in K2 to take care of the True Sith threat and finish the task, rather than be served up to a lynch mob at the gates.

[SilentScope001]

Finally, Revan has demonstrated remorse and tried to atone for past crimes, even if he has no recollection of them. That should also be taken into consideration before a verdict is reached.

 

If Revan shows ANY remorse for his crimes, if he remembered why he done what he did, he should be killed.

 

Why? Because it is the memories that makes a person be the same person. Remember the reason why the Jedi Council mindwiped Revan in the first place (or at the VERY least, gave him a new set of memories and didn't tell Revan about it).

 

So that Revan would not remember what he has done. If he had remembered, he would be affected by it. And he may soon use that memory to do the crimes he done in the past.

 

Note what happened. Revan remembered all his memories, he now know why he turned against the Republic. So, now, he enters into the Unknown Regions...to do, something. We don't know what. Maybe it's that Civil War idea in which Revan falls to the dark side and then amass a huge army to attack the Republic, in which case, killing Revan off now would be a wise desicion. Maybe it's something different. We may never know.

 

But it has something to do with his past. He is reverting to his past, and he is becoming his past self, taking up the same goals. It was his past self that did invade the Republic, what's to say Revan won't do so again?

 

If Revan DOES NOT remember anything about the past, then murdering him would be wrong. But he does remember the past, and it is his memory that is causing him to follow in the footsteps of the past. If Revan, for example, did not remember about the True Sith, then he wouldn't have fled to the Unknown Regions, he would have stayed with Bastila, and maybe got sucked up by Darth Nihilus' Force Drain. But Revan did remember, and it is this memory that drives the rest of his life. His past is determing his future.

 

No, this does not mean he won't do the same crime again. But it does mean that Revan is becoming the same PERSON as the Revan before him, since the memories of the origianl Revan is tainting the new Revan. So, you might as well kill him.

 

I just argue that the Republic won't do such a thing. The Jedi Council has some pull over the Republic (they lost some during the Mandalorian Wars, but after the Jedi Civil War, I think the Council got itself redeemed). Whatever the Council says, the Republic do.

[Vaelastraz]

First of all why should Revan be killed? We don't have to assume the Republic kills criminals...or am I missing something?

 

Secondly, Revan can be held responsible for his crimes because he regained his memories (mentioned in TSL I think).

Justice is not revenge though, therefore it would be a much more appropriate penalty if Revan helps rebuilding what he destroyed etc.

 

Much what he did in kotor I, he saved the galaxy. IMO Revan, after defeating Darth Malak and the Sith, has redeemed himself. In the starwars universe.

 

In our world, he would either be killed or imprioned for life. After all millions died due to him, and his actions created more problems suchs as Nihilus, Sion etc..

[Jediphile]

In our world, he would either be killed or imprioned for life. After all millions died due to him, and his actions created more problems suchs as Nihilus, Sion etc..

 

Actually, exile is to blame for Nihilus according to the jedi masters, not Revan.

[Vaelastraz]

Yeah but it was Revan who started the whole mandalorian war offensive on side of the Jedi.

 

If Revan had not insisted on fighting the Mandalorians, I doubt the Exile would have went into war, considering that the Exile would not have been able to convice so many Jedi to join...

[Jediphile]

Yeah but it was Revan who started the whole mandalorian war offensive on side of the Jedi.

 

If Revan had not insisted on fighting the Mandalorians, I doubt the Exile would have went into war, considering that the Exile would not have been able to convice so many Jedi to join...

 

It was the exile's own choice to join the war effort. Besides, we know from the tomb-scenes on Korriban that it was Malak and not Revan who enlisted the exile. You can't blame Revan for that.

 

Besides, if the exile is not responsible on the basis that Revan had already begin his stand against the Mandalorians, then I'm going to argue that Revan is not responsible either, since his acts were then prompted by the indecision of the council, who were willing to sit and watch while thousands died at the hands of the Mandalorians. Revan may have erred, but the Republic sure put their support behind him by giving him control of their fleet. That's their choice, not Revan's.

[mjpb3]

Should Revan's crimes be forgiven on the basis of her alleged importance? Can or should they be forgiven at all?

If not, then why even play as a lightsider in the first place? If the whole theme of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic--on the lightside--is redemption for her past, and Revan is "executed" for her crimes anyway, what exactly was the point in staying true to the lightside and saving the galaxy from Malak in the first place?

 

 

EDIT:

Revan may have erred, but the Republic sure put their support behind him by giving him control of their fleet. That's their choice, not Revan's.

Exactly. Then for the Republic to turn around and want to punish Revan for falling to the darkside (which EVERY Jedi and force-sensitive is in danger of) is not right no matter how it is sliced and served.

 

What Revan did was wrong, wrongwrongwrongwrongwrong, no doubt, but the Revan I played more than made up for her mistakes by stopping the Sith, the Star Forge, and Malak. For the Republic to turn around and sentence her to death for a past she doesn't even remember is also wrong.

 

Should she be given any punishment for her crimes at all? Yes, absolutely. But not death. She should be sentenced to help rebuild the worlds she helped destroy. As one of the most powerful force users in the time frame, her powers would be more better used to help worlds rebuild.

[EnIgmA_XX]

First of all why should Revan be killed? We don't have to assume the Republic kills criminals...or am I missing something?

 

No, we don't actually know whether the republic kills criminals or not, but i think that it's very possible, especially since there are a lot of mass murderers in Star Wars. in my opinion it's safe to assume there's a kind of death penalty there.

 

Revan also saved millions by his choices. That must be taken into account as well, as must the fact of the millions that would have been lost, had he done nothing (like the jedi council...).

 

i agree that Revan's actions of saving people in the mando wars should be taken into account, but nothing more.

 

Sure, Revan caused the deaths of millions, if not billions of innocents (and that is not okay) but Revan’s actions also saved millions, perhaps billions of lives. Revan’s case is like a coin. It has two sides: a good side and a bad side.

 

the problem that i have with this statement is that i think you seem to be saying that Revan saves billions, and then promptly kills billions of people, so in other words, he/she kind of "breaks even" and everything is alright. this is not the case. saving a person is not an excuse for suddenly turning around and shooting them. even though Revan did save a substansial amount of people, it cannot, does not excuse you from killing them.

 

No, you cannot condemn someone for what they MIGHT do. By that argument, you should put all force-sensitives to death, since they all have the potential to fall to the dark side and become Sith. You can hold people responsible only for what they have actually done in the past or the present.

 

i agree with this statement. if someone say, was an offspring of a sith lord, but they decided that they don't care for the sith and become a jedi, it doesn't mean that you should punish them. nothing is their fault.

 

Finally, Revan has demonstrated remorse and tried to atone for past crimes, even if he has no recollection of them. That should also be taken into consideration before a verdict is reached.

 

yes, consideration, nothing more.

 

Why in the seven hells would you even consider killing off one of the--if not THE--most powerful force user in the galaxy in the first place?

 

you know, this reminds me of a part in tsl when you talk to Atton about his past. one part of the converstaion goes like this:

 

Atton: "What makes you think you've got the right to interrogate me on anything? You've got plenty of lives to answer for - all you Jedi do."

 

one of the dialogue choices for the exile is: "My power gives me the right."

 

do you believe this? does power give you the right to do anything? no, it doesn't. Revan is a murderer. does he/she deserve mercy because he/she is powerful? no.

 

if the Republic were to go around executing fallen Jedi, then where does it ever stop?

 

in my opinion, executing stops if your kill count is under 1,000,000 . no seriously, if a fallen jedi kills that many people, do they still deserve to get redeemed? i don't think so.

 

 

 

look, i know i sound like i'm coming across as a stone cold jerk that thinks that anyone that does something wrong doesn't deserve redemtion. i'm not like that, or at least i like to think i'm not lol. but taking this seriously, does Revan really deserve redemtion?

 

 

he/she killed billions of people. in my humble opinion, a lot of people seem to be tossing the number "billion" around as if it were a statistic. numbers tend to really give you that kind of feeling. but Revan killing billions of people is NOT a statistic. (caps used for emphasis, not to hurt anyone's feelings) you cannot toss around the number billion like just a number. i know it's hard, because nothing here is real, and these are (virtual) people that died. of course this is all just a videogame, but the point is that we're pretending that this really happened, and the question is, what would you do? i just don't feel like Revan deserved redemption. okay, that's all. sorry if anyone got offended, i'm not saying anyone is assuming billion is just a statistic, i'm just making sure.