Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?

[Jediphile]

But that was never Revan, it was <FullName> who done that...

 

Was it? That is still in dispute, and certainly Kreia does not agree with you.

 

Neither did Revan, and I think that Revan personality will overwhealm <FullName> if he is not stopped...

 

That did happen in the DS ending of KotOR, so it is a possibility. However, you cannot punish someone for what he MIGHT do.

 

I side with Zek-Ell that Revan was indeed never redeemed, and that what they did was a "crime". <FullName> was redeemed, but Revan remained. How else could <FullName> remember what Revan experienced? How else does <FullName> knows about the Unknown Regions threat? That memory shows that Revan's personality remains relatively intact, and I doubt <FullName> could contain it. <FullName> was compelled anyway to head to the Unknown Regions...regardless of alignment...is that Revan's doing? (Remember, you have no control over if <FullName> goes to the Unknown Regions. None at all. I believe that <FullName>'s personality was controlled by the Player actually...and that once the game ends, Revan's personality begins to take hold.)

 

I disagree. To me, Revan left because remembering the true Sith, he saw an new opportunity to redeem himself by stopping them. He would not repeat his former mistake, however, and so decided to go himself and alone.

 

I don't agree that memories themselves are harmful. Revan remembers, yes, but his perspective is different now, if he is LS. He no longer forced to view it all with the Dark Side "clouding" and influencing his views.

 

No, you don't have control over whether Revan goes into the Unknown Regions, but the thing I really liked about TSL is that while you can't decide Revan's actions after KotOR, you are still free to decide his motives. If you decide that he left because old Darth Revan exerted himself over <FullName>, then you can. But if you find that he left because <FullName> wanted to save the Republic without repeating Revan's mistake of falling to the dark side, then you can also choose that. The game does not tell you that you're wrong either way.

 

Why I point this? Because I don't want anyone to control the debate and say whatever they want without being questioned.

Who is not being questioned?

You. You say that Revan had to fall to save the Republic, and people disagree. You say Revan redeemed himself, people disagree. The debate still continues...

 

/shrugs.

 

Okay, I'm now officially confused. You say you don't want anyone to control the debate without being questioned, and now point out that this is me you're talking about, yet at the same time you also say that peole disagree with me, as EnIgmA_XX certainly has all along. Ehm, what?!?

[SilentScope001]

No, you don't have control over whether Revan goes into the Unknown Regions, but the thing I really liked about TSL is that while you can't decide Revan's actions after KotOR, you are still free to decide his motives. If you decide that he left because old Darth Revan exerted himself over <FullName>, then you can. But if you find that he left because <FullName> wanted to save the Republic without repeating Revan's mistake of falling to the dark side, then you can also choose that. The game does not tell you that you're wrong either way.

 

On one hand, I like this freedom.

 

On the other hand, it prevents people from answering the question of if Revan should be tried/executed by the Republic.

 

Because then you could say he is a good person. I disagree however. By this statement, both our statements are valid, and only depends on how we view the story. But by then, you have no way to defend Revan then.

 

This arugment turns into, "My Revan is a good person", "My Revan is unredeemably evil"...and well, that's fun. But then this question cannot be solved. We have no common warrant or view on what Revan really is, and this topic is rendered moot. How can we determine if Revan should be tried or executed by the Republic...if we are not talking about the same Revan here?

 

Okay, I'm now officially confused. You say you don't want anyone to control the debate without being questioned, and now point out that this is me you're talking about, yet at the same time you also say that peole disagree with me, as EnIgmA_XX certainly has all along. Ehm, what?!?

 

Well, I was using you as an example. To me, you say that EnigmaXX was wrong, and that his viewpoint was incorrect. You say that Revan was redeemed, and that Revan needed to fall to the Dark Side, and that he is justified.

 

But then you turn around and say, "Oh, it only depends on what you view Revan to be." Then why do you criticize EnigmaXX for holding his views on the matter? Why do you criticize everyone?

 

Never mind then. We are all here to present our views on the matter. And we all are equally right, according to you.

[mjpb3]

We would say that we know he can on the basis of the DS ending, which is all about Darth Revan RETURNING, not being reborn. If Revan chooses the DS at the end of the game, then he simply returns to who he was before the jedi captured him. There are some differences - he's a big stronger (according to Malak) and doesn't have all his memories (of the true Sith, for example) - but he's basically the same person again.

 

I don't quite agree. Remember that the new persona that was imposed on Revan was to be loyal to the republic, yet Revan has the option to refuse that at the end of the game. And in any event, neo-Revan clearly does things that the council never intended. He was just to be a lowly soldier in the Republic because they wouldn't kill him. When he turns out to have emerging potential for the force, the masters seem shocked by it. Clearly they never intended that. The seem only reluctantly - and against the express refusal by Vrook - to allow him training in the jedi ways. They neither knew nor intended that they could use him to find the starmaps, and only learn of that option through Bastila's shared visions with Revan. That does seem like flashes of the old Revan exerting itself, as does the vision of Bastila's fight with Revan, when Malak betrayed him.

 

I agree more with Kreia - the old, dark Darth Revan has been stripped away, and so the real and true Revan is free to grow outside the influence of the dark side. In that sense, the player decides who Revan - not <Fullname> - really is. There is no <Fullname> - it's just the uncorrupted Revan growing back.

See, this is where I disagree with pretty much everything that has been said in this thread. The person I played, albeit from my own perspective, is a totally different person. The Revan I play, from my own POV, is more like the Revan that was, before she fell to the darkside, but also a merged sort of person with who the Jedi programmed her to be as well. So, by my interpretation, the Revan I play is a completely new person. And I can't blame her for what she did as Darth Revan because that was a totally different person altogether.

 

Yes, she finally got her memories of Darth Revan back (K2), but she also retains her memories of who she is as a new persona, who is a lightsider, so in essence, my Revan is a whole new person. She's old Revan, but she is also new Revan, with new Revan's memories of what she became after the Jedi reprogrammed her--stopping the Star Forge, Malak and the Sith...

 

She can't claim to be Darth Revan anymore, nor can she claim to be new Revan either. She's someone completely different than either of them. She's more than she was as Darth Revan, or as <FullName>, so in my eyes, she is someone completely new, who can not be held accountable for something that someone else did. It wasn't her. She feels remorse for her "other" self doing all of those things, but she shouldn't be executed for them because it really was someone else that did that.

[EnIgmA_XX]

There is a big difference between what you choose to do to change only a personal matter in your own life and what you do overtly that will effect other people and how you will interact with them.

 

which is exactly why there is even more reason to turn away from the dark side.

 

If Revan had suddenly become all noble, it would have been seen as weakness among the Sith, and Malak or someone else would have killed him, because that's what the Sith do.

 

but they wouldn't be able to kill Revan, would they? i don't know about you, but maybe Revan is a sith lord for a reason.

 

And while you seem to think that smoking is just something you can casually stop doing, it's not quite as easy as you say. I've never smoked or taken drugs, but I know people who have tried it. Drugs are supposedly particularly difficult to get rid of. I remember someone on another forum I used to frequent who insisted that while it might be possible to stop taking a drug, the addiction itself will never go away. It's the same principle for members of the AA - even if it's been years since they stopped, they can't just casually take a drink every so often, because it's not just a question of drinking as much as constantly acknowledging and fighting their problem.

 

yes, exactly! just like the dark side, or kinda. the point is that it's hard to turn away but it is in your power to do so.

 

And that's just concerning af personal vice. For a fallen jedi, the urge is far stronger because the dark side actively lures you. Like the One Ring in LOTR, it is impossible to resist, as Frodo learned. This is what Belaya calls "the eternal struggle of the jedi" in KotOR, and everything I've ever seen, read or heard in Star Wars suggests that resisting the dark side is impossible - you can only shed yourself of it by being confronted with facts that shock you into clarity, by being forced acknowledge the error of your ways. This is true for Vader, Ulic, Bastila, Atris, Luke Skywalker, or any other redeemed jedi I've ever heard of. Even Traya "transcends" beyond the lure of the dark side by being thrown out by the Sith and stripped of her powers and so forced to reexamine her beliefs. There is no evidence that I've ever seen to suggest that what you suggest Revan should have done is possible in any way. Nor have you denied that or presented evidence to the contrary, EnIgmA_XX.

 

evidence?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_side#The_allure_of_the_dark_side

 

The dark side was extremely addictive, and almost impossible to renounce.

 

yeah, so what i have here is that it is addictive and almost impossible to renounce. so by proving it's almost impossible, i've also proven that it's possible.

 

and also, another quote that i have to take out every now and then to remind people:

 

I'm sorry for starting you down that path, but you chose to continue down it.

 

note the "chose".

 

understand that i'm not claiming turning away to be easy, but it is possible through your power.

 

Unlike you, EnIgmA_XX, I don't deal in absolutes.

 

O_o yes, um, good one.

 

tell me Jediphile, what's 2+2? as you are looking at this post, are you using some kind of mechanical device? are you alive right now? did people die in the JCW? do nukes exist? is there such a thing as "children"? do you eat? are there people dying this moment of starvation? in star wars, is there such a thing as ds? what's the eqution of finding the area of a circle?

 

if you've answered directly to any of these questions, then i'm sorry Jediphile, but you're not quite telling the truth. you can't say you don't deal in absolutes, we live absolutes!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Shadow_of_Z%27ha%27dum

 

And more to the point:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Coventry#Bombing_during_the_Blitz

 

wait, what's the point you're trying to make with the second url?

 

Of course it's not excusable to kill unnecessarily.

 

okay, good.

 

The point is that we can't know if it was necessary or not, or even if more people were killed than necessary due to unfortunate circumstances, neither of which it is fair to blame Revan for. Just because Revan was dark lord does not make him a god who could have saved or condemned every little life - he does not have quite that much control.

 

yes i know, and we are currently debating whether the JCW was a mistake or not, and that action was whithin his/her control. if the JCW was a mistake, then all of those lives were lost unnecessarily.

 

If you can't name any, then you can't claim that any died.

 

so...you're saying that if i killed a few toddlers, and i mutilated their bodies, so when the police come they somehow can't identify the bodies, then they can't find their names...it never happened? omg pls say no.

 

and, unless you prove to me that there weren't any kids on the entire planet of telos when it was bombed, don't you even try telling me that no kids died.

 

But you have no evidence of that, and even if it did happen, it is what happens in war.

 

and that's exactly why we're debating whether the JCW was a mistake or not. if it was a mistake, then Revan is directly responsile for those lives.

 

How many innocent children have the Rebellion killed in their attacks on the Empire? You can't tell me that it never happened...

 

"If you can't name any, then you can't claim that any died." rofl rofl rofl ROFL! this, Jediphile, is nothing short of hysterical. i find it just hilarious that you are trying to prove that Revan never killed any children at all by making all this talk about name tags and identification, and then you turn right around later and try to prove that the republic and rebelion killed kids! Jediphile, can you name any of the kids that the mandos, jedi, republic, or rebellion killed?

 

Turning to pathos in your attempt to pursuade me of your point will not take us anywhere positive, since I do not agree that invoking emotions is a legitimate basis to discuss from. It distances us from an objective appraisal of the topic, I think. That is also why you haven't heard me argue that the jedi council are heartless monsters, because they condemned countless children on the outer rim to horrible deaths by refusing to fight the Mandalorians. Or are you going to tell me that it did not happen?

 

can you, uh, name those children?

 

okay, look, Jediphile, i'm gonna admit that all those people you talked about did in fact probably kill children, but i also want no less than for you to also admit that Revan did in fact, cause the deaths of children too.

 

So it's okay for the Republic fleet to kill children, but not for Revan's...

 

not quite. if you haven't noticed yet, i'm not attempting to defend the republic, mandos, Bastila, or whoever. if they killed kids, sentence the ones guilty as well. but we're not talking about them, are we?

 

And, of course, if the Republic is so noble that it will never attack a ship or a place where innocent children might be harmed, then - if I were Revan or some other dark lord - I would make certain to have families with innocent children on every ship and in every place of strategic importance to nullify the potential of an enemy attack. Sorry, but I don't think that holds water.

 

if you've ever read the sw book, outbound flight, the Vaagri (i think that's how you spell it) put their prisoners in bubbles around their ships. does that mean you are evil if you destroy them? you have to, there's no choice. but did Revan have no other choice when he/she started the JCW? maybe Revan did.

 

Besides, this is just what the Mandalorians accuse the Republic of - they see them as cowards for placing their areas of strategic importance next to civilians, and so the Mandalorians argue that it's the Republic's own fault if it's gets a bloody nose by taking civilian casualties. Who's right? Sure, you can call the Mandalorians butchers, but surely the Republic did have the option of separating targets of strategic importance from the civilian population, so who's really at fault? Nope, it doesn't add up to put the blame solely on one side.

 

and never have i claimed otherwise except in the occasion where there was no other choice. Revan is still at fault for his/her share, though.

[Jediphile]

On one hand, I like this freedom.

 

On the other hand, it prevents people from answering the question of if Revan should be tried/executed by the Republic.

 

Because then you could say he is a good person. I disagree however. By this statement, both our statements are valid, and only depends on how we view the story. But by then, you have no way to defend Revan then.

 

This arugment turns into, "My Revan is a good person", "My Revan is unredeemably evil"...and well, that's fun. But then this question cannot be solved. We have no common warrant or view on what Revan really is, and this topic is rendered moot. How can we determine if Revan should be tried or executed by the Republic...if we are not talking about the same Revan here?

 

You could be right. Certainly neither game gives us a definite answer, and since much is based on personal view, we may never be able to reach a conclusive result. I don't see this as a bad thing necessarily, though.

 

Well, I was using you as an example. To me, you say that EnigmaXX was wrong, and that his viewpoint was incorrect. You say that Revan was redeemed, and that Revan needed to fall to the Dark Side, and that he is justified.

 

Except I have not accused Revan of anything. I'm in the defensive position here and try to question the accusations that are made against Revan. For example, if EnIgmA_XX says that Revan kills children, then isn't it reasonable for me to question that claim and ask for it to be based on something?

 

I've never hidden that I have my own view on Revan, but when I defend it, I do so on the basis of observations I make. I do not speak forcefully or with a voice of authority, as if I have a particular insight into "how things really are."

 

I don't mind that other people have different opinion than I do, but I do reserve the right question it if I find they generalize on the basis of their own opinion of Revan. Take this, for example:

 

alright, now that i have my analogy up and running, it time to make the connections. i seriously doubt that any self respecting jedi padawan thinks that they're going to end up turning to the dark side. does it happen? uh, yeah. the second you fall to the dark side, from that point forward it grabs hold of you and keeps you from changing. it makes you attack other innocent people and do other random bad things that i'm just too lazy to mention. and no, duh it is hard to stop. does that excuse the fact that you are stealing and killing? NO, NO, NO! it does not!!! you, are a murderer. is it a valid excuse that "i, uh, it was too hard to turn away." no. that is a horrible excuse to kill people. of course, most of the time it would take a big, really big moment to make a person change from that. but that doesn't mean that you are rendered uncapable of changing until someone finally gives you a good smack to the head and tell you to "just wake up already!" you can always change. just like you can always quit smoking. and if you stop late, you are no less at fault for killing those people than any other person.

 

EnIgmA_XX states his opinion, which is fair and reasonable, but he also makes a judgment call on Revan's actions and states that is definitely to be condemned for that. I could be wrong, but I don't see much room for a different interpretation of Revan's motives in what EnIgmA_XX says here, and so I question his basis for making this ruling. I mean, could there be extenuating circumstances to explain what Revan did? I think so, but I don't see that there is left much room for it here.

 

But then you turn around and say, "Oh, it only depends on what you view Revan to be." Then why do you criticize EnigmaXX for holding his views on the matter? Why do you criticize everyone?

 

I don't criticize him for his opinion. He has every right to it. But if he tries to establish it as truthful, then I find it fair to question it, since I have a very different take on Revan's motives. If he wants his Revan to be guilty, then fine. I'll accept that. But the door swings both ways. If he wants me to accept that, then he must accept that my Revan can be innocent as well.

 

You're right, however, if you say that I have been adamant in my dismissal of some of his claims, however. I do think the reason for that is rather obvious, though. If I find his demand for justice to be an excuse for revenge, then I will point that out, and if I think that his accusation of Revan killing children is baseless, then I will say so. I have a right to state my opinion too, after all.

 

Never mind then. We are all here to present our views on the matter. And we all are equally right, according to you.

 

Merely stating an opinion does not make us equal. For example, if I said that Revan never found the Starforge and that it was just Malak, then that's not "equally right" since we know that to be factually wrong. Differing opinions are fine, but the must be based on and fit with the facts we know.

[Jae Onasi]

OK guys,

a. It's not a real trial.

b. It's not a real person.

c. It's just a game.

 

Play nice.

[Nancy Allen``]

i'm not really getting you. this seems like a pretty rhetorical question, too.

 

What I'm saying is, since you are Revan, you should be tried and executed. You have no memory of your actions as the Dark Lord but you are Revan. Were you not sent to find the Star Maps? Did Malek not reveal that you are Revan? Then you are guilty of being the Dark Lord of the Sith.

[EnIgmA_XX]

You could be right. Certainly neither game gives us a definite answer, and since much is based on personal view, we may never be able to reach a conclusive result. I don't see this as a bad thing necessarily, though.

 

it isn't a bad thing. this way, we can all be right at the same time!

 

Except I have not accused Revan of anything. I'm in the defensive position here and try to question the accusations that are made against Revan. For example, if EnIgmA_XX says that Revan kills children, then isn't it reasonable for me to question that claim and ask for it to be based on something?

 

not unreasonable, but it's quite the stretch to say that no kids die in war, no?

 

I've never hidden that I have my own view on Revan, but when I defend it, I do so on the basis of observations I make. I do not speak forcefully or with a voice of authority, as if I have a particular insight into "how things really are."

 

aw, sry if i made you think that, Jediphile . i hope you know i'm not trying to be condescending, i'm just heavily opinionated, especially with this disscussion. that's just how i am. when there's something i strongly believe in, i speak with determination and sometimes quite a bit strongly, but so you know, it's not against you.

 

I don't mind that other people have different opinion than I do, but I do reserve the right question it if I find they generalize on the basis of their own opinion of Revan.

 

which is good, so we can actually be specific.

 

EnIgmA_XX states his opinion, which is fair and reasonable, but he also makes a judgment call on Revan's actions and states that is definitely to be condemned for that. I could be wrong, but I don't see much room for a different interpretation of Revan's motives in what EnIgmA_XX says here, and so I question his basis for making this ruling. I mean, could there be extenuating circumstances to explain what Revan did? I think so, but I don't see that there is left much room for it here.

 

ha, good luck with it then. i was trying to prove a point.

 

I don't criticize him for his opinion. He has every right to it. But if he tries to establish it as truthful, then I find it fair to question it, since I have a very different take on Revan's motives. If he wants his Revan to be guilty, then fine. I'll accept that. But the door swings both ways. If he wants me to accept that, then he must accept that my Revan can be innocent as well.

 

hm? but we're debating. we're trying to prove something. you can't debate if you accept each other's argument. whoosh oops! there goes the fun...

 

You're right, however, if you say that I have been adamant in my dismissal of some of his claims, however. I do think the reason for that is rather obvious, though. If I find his demand for justice to be an excuse for revenge, then I will point that out, and if I think that his accusation of Revan killing children is baseless, then I will say so. I have a right to state my opinion too, after all.

 

yes, and my opinion is that claiming that no children died during the JCW is baseless, too.

 

Merely stating an opinion does not make us equal. For example, if I said that Revan never found the Starforge and that it was just Malak, then that's not "equally right" since we know that to be factually wrong. Differing opinions are fine, but the must be based on and fit with the facts we know.

 

so as long as we are within the limits of "fact", we're fine. there, problem solved.

 

Jediphile, i hope you'll still directly answer to my post, though. it's hard to respond like this.

 

What I'm saying is, since you are Revan, you should be tried and executed. You have no memory of your actions as the Dark Lord but you are Revan. Were you not sent to find the Star Maps? Did Malek not reveal that you are Revan? Then you are guilty of being the Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

?...so you're talking about my Revan?

[Nancy Allen``]

Since you started playing the game, you are Revan. Every action in the game you took, every decision you made, was as Revan. Therefore, you are Darth Revan, Dark Lord of the Sith, captured by the Jedi and your mind wiped so you have no recollection of what you did. So since you are Revan you should be tried and executed. Not so keen now are we?

[EnIgmA_XX]

well, i didn't get to choose whether my Revan was a mass murderer or not. second, it is just a game. aka some kind of simulation. i play games to get away from real life, and naturally, i'd maybe do things that i normally wouldn't in real life. if we were judged in real life based on games, be assured that there would be a lot less people in the world, and the selling of electric chairs, automatic weapons, and handcuffs would be a major part of the economy.

[Nancy Allen``]

You didn't know that you were Revan though did you? So given the fact that you are Revan, despite not knowing that you were, should you be punished for his actions? If not then why should the man who defeated Malek and was once Revan be tried and executed?

 

Also take a look at this thread.

[EnIgmA_XX]

*whistles* wow, that's deep. i can't believe i missed that thread. i don't know, should we be sentenced for videogame/book/movie/whatever cimes though? seems like a bit of a stretch. i mean, is it real? i don't think so. but it could be real. i don't know. but if that's the case, it looks like we're all going to the electric chair. hmm...

[SilentScope001]

In that thread, I was not calling for "real" people like you and me to be executed for killing "fictional" characters. I merely want people to create a perfect world (a utopia, like, say, Heaven) for those "fictional" characters and to give at least a thought to the welfare of all those NPCs, instead of treating them like dirt and tools to be used for other things. Bah.

[EnIgmA_XX]

yes, i guess you're right. i've been thinking about this all yesterday and today (and reading some 1/0 ) and i've kinda been thinking. NA, not all people that play KOTOR are evil y'know. and not all people that play Halo are evil. and yes, not even all the people that play Manhunt are evil. we do what we do in games because we know it isn't real (but of course, how real it is compared to us is something to think about) . NA, i know for a fact that you are above something as ridiculous as mass murder. as i'd bet a hell of a lot of money that SS001, Jediphile, ED, Jae, Stoffe, and all those other people are above mass murder too. i think you know that. so let's not accuse, we're all good people.

[SilentScope001]

True, I won't do mass murders, but I do want people to also worry a bit about "fictional" characters as well. They do think they are real, so it is at least something to think about. I don't want to accuse anyone of crimes, of course, but I do want people to at least see the world in a different light, which is fun.

 

/shrugs.

 

One way I was thinking of solving this issue is to create a perfect world (or, a story) where nobody gets hurt and everyone lives happily ever after. The only thing that prevents it is the fact that it's a boring story to read (if anyone knows of a way to make that story interesting), but at least, if everyone is allowed there, then they can have a bit of a utopia, and be glad, somewhat redeeming us.

 

But, er, this is off-topic. If we like to talk about this some more, we could do it in that other thread.

[Nancy Allen``]

This poor excuse of a technicality isn't going to stop us from killing Revan is it?

[True_Avery]

Hehe, a "Should Revan Die" thread. cool.

 

I will assume we are talking about a Gray or Light side Revan and go from there.

(I'll be using "her" as a personal preference)

 

Revan turned her back on the Jedi to fight in war that would have decimated the republic and all who stood for it without her intervention. Even if the Mandalorian's never admitted it, they were genociding planet after planet, bringing some races to extinction or to the brink of it, killing absolutely everything in their way in the name of "honor". Man, woman, child. Her power, brilliance, and ability to convince people to do her commands won the Mandalorian war and saved the Republic completely. Without her, there would have never been a future Republic, no Star Wars Episodes... just a galaxy that spoke Mandalorian and most likely would have been taken over by the "True Sith" within coming years from their pawns.

 

Then (Now this theory on what happened is shared by Kreia, Goto, Mical, and many others so I'm going to stand on this) around the time of the wars she traveled to Malachor V, found the Academy, and discovered the True Sith threat, ancient teachings, and the path to the Star Forge. Through this she made a plan to save the Republic yet again, but this time only she would ever see it that way until much later. She found the Forge, made an army that would easily wipe away the Republic, and proclaimed herself Dark Lord of the Sith for mostly unknown reasons.

 

I wont go on explaining more of the elementary facts, but in the Jedi Civil War she killed Billions... Trillions of beings while she was in charge. She knew she was doing this for the purpose of saving the Republic but also knew that the Republic would never see it that way. Then she was betrayed by Malak and lost her title and nearly her life. In a coma she was reprogramed, but all else knew her to be dead and damn glad of it.

 

Then Kotor happened. What happens in that game is completely up to the person playing and their imagination. But as the Light, or a more Gray side, is considered to be the Canon ending I'll start with that.

 

The extent of brain damage is never stated. It is never truly stated if her mind was -ever- damaged at all, but was merely -said- to be damaged by the naive Jedi Order who assumed the Dark Side had destroyed it over time. All that is said is that she is in a coma and they use this chance to give her a new mind. Or, as Kreia pointed out, merely took existing experiences and emotions, changed them slightly and removed what the Jedi thought to be "evil" and left the rest to fix itself. The rest is history.

 

What I, personally, assume happened over time is that through being forced to visit places that forced her old self out, her mind gradually began to fix itself and eventually fully heal. Depending on how the conversations and interactions go, you can pretty much play Revan near the end as someone who has nearly gained her entire mind back. It may have been just word play, but the conversations at the end with Malak are fairly evident of that. After Kotor not much is known about what happened to Revan, but I can assume through conversations in TSL that Revan eventually gained her entire mind back and possibly even fused with the programmed mind the Jedi gave her. She remembered what had happened and left nearly all her old companions with orders of what to do in her absence.

 

I mention this because if she got her entire mind back or at least the majority of it (Thus making her Revan again), is she truly redeemable in the eyes of the galaxy? I am not talking about Senators or Civilians, but the Galaxy itself and all those people who were affected, good or bad, by what she did through time. People DO know Revan came back and was not in fact dead, as she is mentioned very often as being alive in TSL. I doubt a Cross of Glory can be given lightly in front of all those Republic soldiers and NOT be known to the majority of the civilian and political population.

 

I can see many being, if not all, sceptical of Revan on her return. She saves trillions of lives in the Mandalorian wars, comes back and kills billions (if not trillions) of beings in her rein, and then saves the galaxy again from her own army. Planets are going to want revenge against her. Many will want her executed or put in the worst possible prison. Outside of those she knew, I highly doubt she would ever be trusted again enough to be able to meld back into society.

 

Now, onto Revan's disapearance, which I think holds more than meets the eyes. I believe Revan left due to remembering the True Sith, but also due to a rising tension between her and the galaxy. It is a known fact of life that the majority of a population needs someone to blame for an incident. Germany being blamed completely for World War 1, anyone? Now that Malak was gone to take the heat, how about throw it all at Revan? After all, did she not form the army that Malak used in the first place? Would they have fallen much faster if Revan had still been in charge?

 

Light or Dark side, evidence in the series shows that the "normal" population does not see a difference. They simply see Jedi killing eachother and taking trillions with them. They will not give a damn that Revan "redeemed" herself to the Light side. She is the same person who did those horrible things to them and she needs to be punished, not awarded.

 

Shall I put more emphasis on why? Billions. Trillions. Those are not numbers. 1,000,000,000 is a billion, and Revan killed that many people a hundred times over. She killed hundreds of times the population of Planet Earth, a planet with only about 6 billion people. Now, she had a reason behind it and I would personally back her up on that, but convincing the other 99.99% of the Galactic population is an entirely new story.

 

Should she be put on trial? Should she be executed? The damn girl is lucky the Republic Soldiers didn't try to kill her the second they knew who she was. Her actions in Kotor do not in any way "redeem" her in their eyes. I know a lot would like to think that, but it just does not. I can suspect that after the rumors and facts started flying around that a lot of people would give their lives to see her dead for what she did to their families. The Senate would have been in a uproar, a mighty union of hate directly aimed at Revan. She fled to save herself and to try and save the Republic yet again, but this time completely on her own. Her companions also mysteriously disapear. I assume she told each of them to hide out or find a place to lay low, as allies to her were sure to get negative attention as well.

 

Revan always had backup plans. That is what made her a genius. What made her powerful and possibly even one of the greatest Jedi/Sith to ever live. If she won, she could use the Republic and Forge combined to make a defense to which the new threat would break on like water. If she lost, she would either die or be tried and/or executed. Both acceptable outcomes. If she lost, then the war will have made the Republic stronger than ever, to which it did to a certain extent. If she was captured and executed, damn... even better. The ENTIRE Galaxy in a union, under a single banner to watch one of their greatest threats die. Union and power is what she was planning, and in life or death her plan was fullproof to make the Republic stronger in the end.

 

I've read this thread over and over again and I will not believe for a second she can be redeemed enough to be accepted. If I, in real life, in our universe and justice system, were to lead us to victory in a war, then take the army and turn it on you and kill your families, those you know, or just people you have heard of somewhere else... you would want me dead or behind bars. If I suddenly appeared again when I was assumed dead, leading your forces to victory against my army, you would still hate me for what I have done. The wrong always somehow outweighs the right, and the wrong is what I shall forever be remembered for. The "wrong" is what Revan will forever be remembered for in history.

 

I think that Revan's actions are justified if what Kreia said was true. Revan took a huge risk in attacking the Republic, fully understanding what would happen if she lost. If she did get her mind back I doubt she would be depressed about it. It was her decision, and even though the outcome might be similar, I believe she would do it all over again if she had the chance. Maybe that makes me just as "evil" as her, but I can accept that. She is not redeemable, but she doesn't give a damn. Who needs redemption and the love of the Galaxy when you yourself know you have saved it.

 

And as far as your arguement for "You are Revan, and you are saying you deserve to die"... If I did all of that, if I was as I played and believe Revan to be, I would... or will believe that everything that happened and everything I had done has been justified in my own mind. I may have hurt and killed many, but life or death would not rip the idea that I did everything I did under the belief it was the right thing to do.

 

But this is all just guess work from what I think I know. I know that many would -never- consider Revan (Or even the Star Wars Universe) deep enough to willingly go to the Dark Side to save the Galaxy and remain relatively uncorrupted, but that is what I believe happened.

 

 

And for Dark Side play Revan? Sorry everybody, but no way in the universe would the Galaxy ever consider anything short of instant execution for her. Can't go much deeper as far as Dark Side goes.

[Nancy Allen``]

Impressive. On Revan's memory, how much of Revan as a reborn Jedi herself? If the memory and personality of Revan is the Jedi's doing for example I doubt she would be trying to get Carth to kiss her. Though then again, given Juhani and Belaya, maybe parts of Revan were left intact, more than just what was needed. Though if Jedi like Vrook had anything to do with it you can be assured this facet of Revan's personality would be gone. Or many of the other comments she makes to Carth and others. Such as swearing to Mission that Malek and the Sith will pay, a likely comment if we are dealing with Revan at her core who went after the Mandalorians and not trying to have Mission seek comfort like a Jedi would. Or vowing to the farmer on Dantoine that she will hunt down and kill every Mandalorian.

[EnIgmA_XX]

it's great to hear your opinion here, TA. that's an interesting view you have, although i'd have to say that i have some doubts in places. i'll speak from what we've disscussed in the thread; didn't Revan fall to the dark side in Mal V? because that's what Jediphile seems to think happened. i remember that somewhere in this thread he sited a KOTOR chronicles passage stating that Revan fell to the ds, so i'd think that Revan's intentions were warped a bit. IMO no doubt you've already seen in the thread, i don't exactly think Revan made a smart move in making war (aka the JCW) and had a few other options that are definitely less gory. IMO, if starting war wasn't the only option, then Revan should've explored those other options before rushing in to tear the republic apart. i've disscussed a few other possibilities, but my most recent is probably my warcraft 3 analogy. so yeah. very interesting about your hypothesis with the whole galaxy being united, though.

[True_Avery]

Impressive. On Revan's memory, how much of Revan as a reborn Jedi herself? If the memory and personality of Revan is the Jedi's doing for example I doubt she would be trying to get Carth to kiss her. Though then again, given Juhani and Belaya, maybe parts of Revan were left intact, more than just what was needed. Though if Jedi like Vrook had anything to do with it you can be assured this facet of Revan's personality would be gone. Or many of the other comments she makes to Carth and others. Such as swearing to Mission that Malek and the Sith will pay, a likely comment if we are dealing with Revan at her core who went after the Mandalorians and not trying to have Mission seek comfort like a Jedi would. Or vowing to the farmer on Dantoine that she will hunt down and kill every Mandalorian.

Well, as far as "Core" Revan goes, that may have been exactly what the Jedi Council used. Kreia's comment on her being reprogrammed mentions that she believed the Council picked apart Revan's mind piece by piece and formed the new mind out of the many puzzle pieces. Under Revan's darker beliefs, under her love/hate relationship with war, under her bloodthirst yet strange love she has for everybody... Revan is simply exactly what they made her to be: A strong and determined woman who wanted nothing more than to preserve the Republic and Galaxy from horrible consequences. To spice it up they added a bit less individuality and more blind Jedi belief to the equation, which eventually disapeared in time.

 

As far as taking away parts of Revan's mind and personality completely... Hmm, I'm not so sure. Vrook my have been an angry old man, but I still believe Revan was stronger in body, mind, and Force than he could ever hope to be. I base this on the fact that if you play Dark Side Revan, a lot of really evil stuff happens that seems to simply be a massive amplification of Revan's core beliefs. That may be EXACTLY what the new personality is, simply Revan's core beliefs amplified a few time over. They added the Jedi Belief system into her to amplify that to be a completely loyal Jedi Knight of the Light, but if you go Dark Side you do a lot of extremely evil things that are extreme even for a Sith. Either way, unless you play your cards right you always end up with one of the extremes at the end of the game.

 

Ending 1: You are a prime example of a loyal Jedi Knight, blinded by the light but slowly gaining back your old self.

 

Ending 2: An ending where you are pretty much over the edge insane, the exact oposite of a loyal Jedi. You take the Star Forge and make your army to destroy the Republic.

 

But both of these endings make no sense for TSL and what is explained. If what I'm currently thinking is even remotely correct, either one of the extremes is eventually lost or absorbed when Revan's mind fully awakens. Revan is not a blind loyal Jedi. Revan is not a power insane Sith Lord. That is why in both endings you end up leaving, neither rebuilding the Jedi Order like a Jedi or taking over the Galaxy like a Sith. Revan is the largest example of what I believe to be a Gray Jedi. Even Malak admits that Revan is nothing, yet everything.

 

And for Revan's comments throughout the game to companions, I agree completely. Even though the Jedi council tried their best to make a pure Jedi, I think they needed the war hungry part of Revan present to give her reason to chase and destroy Malak, but that may have just been her core acting at her own will. The entire Jedi Council, the strongest Jedi alive, could not keep Revan's mind locked away completely and could not stop her from being reborn more powerful than she had ever been. This is crossing the line for me on opinion, but I think if Revan's mind did come back and her constant Force fluxes did slow down that she may be, simply put, a perfect Force-Sensitive being. But I'll try to keep those crazy fangirl beliefs to myself .

 

it's great to hear your opinion here, TA. that's an interesting view you have, although i'd have to say that i have some doubts in places. i'll speak from what we've disscussed in the thread; didn't Revan fall to the dark side in Mal V? because that's what Jediphile seems to think happened. i remember that somewhere in this thread he sited a KOTOR chronicles passage stating that Revan fell to the ds, so i'd think that Revan's intentions were warped a bit. IMO no doubt you've already seen in the thread, i don't exactly think Revan made a smart move in making war (aka the JCW) and had a few other options that are definitely less gory. IMO, if starting war wasn't the only option, then Revan should've explored those other options before rushing in to tear the republic apart. i've disscussed a few other possibilities, but my most recent is probably my warcraft 3 analogy. so yeah. very interesting about your hypothesis with the whole galaxy being united, though.

 

Revan's ideal was to bring order to the Galaxy. The Republic was in chaos, and to be honest, has always been in chaos. Conflicts constantly were born in the Galaxy, constantly being fought, and order never seemed to come out of any of this. Just more hate and destruction. And in all these instances, Revan saw that the Republic and Jedi both were slow... oh... so... slow on ever doing anything. They let the Mandalorian take over worlds just outside the Outer Rim for YEARS. The Mandalorian's exterminated planet after planet like a plague and absolutely nothing could stop them on their warpath up until Revan. Revan was obviously disgusted with both the Jedi and Republic for not stopping a superpower before it got even stronger. Sounds kind of like all of Europe when Hitler started World War II huh? We all know what ended up happening to Europe when they ignored that threat for a little too long.

 

Now, about Revan's fall on Malachor V. I completely agree that stepping foot on Malachor V made the planet pretty much force the Dark Side right into her, but as I like to believe... Revan never liked being controlled, but instead always wanted to be in control. Now, that may sound really selfish and arrogant, but think about it. She thought the Jedi were fools and did not let them control her and thought the Sith (or at least the True Sith) were a terrible threat to everything. Out of all fears I think Revan has, I think she fears not having control. Not being able to use logic or emotion to control the Force within her or even control her own life. On Malachor V, she may have been ravaged and assaulted with Dark Side energy, but as we all know she still kept her sanity intact. She still went to the Trayus Academy to continue on with her journey.

 

Evidence?

 

Revan, even though she had been recently pumped with the Dark Side, was not corrupted in the sense we think of corruption. She still had her brilliant mind, still had her "loyalty" to the Galaxy and the Republic, and still wanted to destroy the Sith. Of all things to hate while being infused with the Dark Side, she still managed to fear and hate the True Sith she discovered in the Trayus Academy. I believe, like Kreia said, Revan did not ever fall to the Dark Side. Ever. Even though she was forced to an ocean of Dark Side energy on Malachor, she still managed to survive almost completely intact. How? All evidence of the Dark Side in the Star Wars universe points to it being all consuming and all destructive. Unless, she did not fall but instead embraced it. Instead of letting it control her, she took control of the Dark Side of Malachor V and welcomed it willingly to continue on her journey. She broke it to her will, not the other way around.

 

And this proved to be exactly what she needed. Inside the Academy she found the lost archives that would eventually lead her to the Star Forge. The Star Forge, being a Dark Side relic, needed a powerful Dark Side infused being in order to work. Now, Revan could have turned back over to the Light or the Neutral side she had aways been taking, but in light of this news... why not keep the Dark Side a little longer until the Galaxy was in her control and safety? The Star Forge was going to be her tool to take over the Republic, and she had everything she needed to control except it's location.

 

Now, did Revan honestly have any other choices? No, not in the time she thought she had. Proof? HK-47. That may sound vague, but she made that wity Assassin Droid to kill corrupt leaders in the Galaxy who would, and already were, destabalizing the Republic and keeping it from working at full power. But killing off a few senators was only the start. The Republic itself was and is a giant political mess, well suited for conservative trading and business decisions but not in any way fit for the War that Revan knew would come. Damn, without her the Republic would not even exist. It was her -Quick- thinking that saved the Republic, not the slow Jedi and Senators. The senators would, under no circumstances, believe anything she would tell them and would never give Revan control over the Republic. She did not even have control over the military. That is what she needed. Control. And a bunch of old men and women who understood nothing of war could not control what was happening.

 

Now, I will never say that the corruption of the Dark Side can be avoided. As well, I will never say that the Light Side is not an ignorant and blind mess of beliefs. The Dark Side in Revan may have made her more bloodthirsty than she intended, but the goal... light or dark... was to create a war with the Republic to which it would become stronger, through winning or losing, and in the end it did. War is very very very hard to justify on a moral point of view, but from a logical and sometimes emotional point of view, Revan thought she was right and that is all that is needed to start something big.

 

I've also been considering why Revan chose the title of "Dark Lord of the Sith" when she obviously disliked both the Jedi and Sith. Also the fact that "Lord" is used in both the Female and Male versions of the telling. I've got a very good hunch on why, but it is mostly Fanon and will be left for my future Fanfiction to use instead of pulling this thread off-topic anymore than I might already be.

 

So, all in all... who is to blame here? This is going all the way to the Exile and her Exile from the Jedi Order. Is The Republic to blame for all the death, destruction and chaos? Is the Jedi Order responsible for not acting sooner? Is Revan completely responsible for everything that happened? All of these questions are based on opinion and how you have played the story, so I will leave the answers to you.

 

 

-=Please Just remember, this is all my opinion that I have formed through my understanding of the characters in the story. I am in no way trying to pick a fight with anybody or calling their opinion wrong. I have my own imagination and picture of things and I respect everybody with different views. After all, thats the entire point of KOTOR!=-

 

 

*cry*

If only I could type this much without thinking when I write Gray Code Chapters. I would be pulling out 2 or 3 chapters a day. Oh well, all this talking only adds more to my planning.

[Lord Spitfire]

Revan always had backup plans. That is what made her a genius. What made her powerful and possibly even one of the greatest Jedi/Sith to ever live. If she won, she could use the Republic and Forge combined to make a defense to which the new threat would break on like water. If she lost, she would either die or be tried and/or executed. Both acceptable outcomes. If she lost, then the war will have made the Republic stronger than ever, to which it did to a certain extent. If she was captured and executed, damn... even better. The ENTIRE Galaxy in a union, under a single banner to watch one of their greatest threats die. Union and power is what she was planning, and in life or death her plan was fullproof to make the Republic stronger in the end.

 

I've read this thread over and over again and I will not believe for a second she can be redeemed enough to be accepted. If I, in real life, in our universe and justice system, were to lead us to victory in a war, then take the army and turn it on you and kill your families, those you know, or just people you have heard of somewhere else... you would want me dead or behind bars. If I suddenly appeared again when I was assumed dead, leading your forces to victory against my army, you would still hate me for what I have done. The wrong always somehow outweighs the right, and the wrong is what I shall forever be remembered for. The "wrong" is what Revan will forever be remembered for in history.

 

 

That's a very good point you made about Revan's backup plans. I agree that he did whatever it would take to keep the Republic strong, and protect it for the True Sith.

 

About your secodn idea . . . well, in your post, I couldn't find t clear whether you thought Revan deserved to be executed, or that he would be. For me, he obviously doesn't deserve to get esecuted, becaues we - as the people who played the game - know his intentions. But about 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of the galaxy doesn't care, or wouldn't even if they did know, as you said.

 

Would he be executed? Yes, most definitely.

 

But should he be executed? No, absolutely not.

[True_Avery]

That's a very good point you made about Revan's backup plans. I agree that he did whatever it would take to keep the Republic strong, and protect it for the True Sith.

 

About your second idea . . . well, in your post, I couldn't find it clear whether you thought Revan deserved to be executed, or that he would be. For me, he obviously doesn't deserve to get esecuted, becaues we - as the people who played the game - know his intentions. But about 99.9 percent of the galaxy doesn't care, or wouldn't even if they did know, as you said.

 

Would he be executed? Yes, most definitely.

 

But should he be executed? No, absolutely not.

 

It is a point of view thing to me. Saying in an absolute if he/she deserves to be executed or not is entirely based on the opinion of who you ask. Yes, Revan did it all to save the Galaxy but very few know about it and the majority, most likely including the Senate, would still hold a huge grudge.

 

Do I think Revan should be executed? No, to put it simply. Revan killed huge amounts of people on both sides, but even though it is an utterly terrible and cruel thing to say... sometimes deaths, good or bad, can leave a lasting impression on something that changes it for the best. Revan took that chance to change the Republic for the best and knew enough to make sure it happened in any scenerio.

 

If Revan had stuck around? Yes, or at least thrown into prison. Somewhere in Revan I know Revan would be tempted by the idea of staying behind to be put on trial for the small union and feeling of power it would have given the galaxy. Out of everything, however, I do not think Revan was planning on Malak trying to kill her (at least so soon) and then take the fleet to literally try and destroy the Galaxy. Her second chance still gave the Republic their "win" to make them stronger, but it was won in a way that required Revan to learn more and even attempt to take down or stall the True Sith threat.

 

But like I said, would Revan have cared either way? Being betrayed by Malak , allowed to be reprogrammed and let live was a blessing that only the Jedi Council was ever capable of doing. In anybody else's hands, Revan would have died, and knew that that and I believe it. Revan owes her life to the Jedi she so disliked, another reason why Revan may have left instead of going ahead with taking over the Republic and converting the last of the Jedi. The Jedi teachings may have had their major flaws, but they saved her and she in turn was given a second chance to stop Malak from ruining everything.

 

Although now I am just stating the obvious >.<

[Jediphile]

Revan's ideal was to bring order to the Galaxy. The Republic was in chaos, and to be honest, has always been in chaos. Conflicts constantly were born in the Galaxy, constantly being fought, and order never seemed to come out of any of this. Just more hate and destruction. And in all these instances, Revan saw that the Republic and Jedi both were slow... oh... so... slow on ever doing anything. They let the Mandalorian take over worlds just outside the Outer Rim for YEARS. The Mandalorian's exterminated planet after planet like a plague and absolutely nothing could stop them on their warpath up until Revan. Revan was obviously disgusted with both the Jedi and Republic for not stopping a superpower before it got even stronger. Sounds kind of like all of Europe when Hitler started World War II huh? We all know what ended up happening to Europe when they ignored that threat for a little too long.

 

Now, about Revan's fall on Malachor V. I completely agree that stepping foot on Malachor V made the planet pretty much force the Dark Side right into her, but as I like to believe... Revan never liked being controlled, but instead always wanted to be in control. Now, that may sound really selfish and arrogant, but think about it. She thought the Jedi were fools and did not let them control her and thought the Sith (or at least the True Sith) were a terrible threat to everything. Out of all fears I think Revan has, I think she fears not having control. Not being able to use logic or emotion to control the Force within her or even control her own life. On Malachor V, she may have been ravaged and assaulted with Dark Side energy, but as we all know she still kept her sanity intact. She still went to the Trayus Academy to continue on with her journey.

 

Evidence?

 

Revan, even though she had been recently pumped with the Dark Side, was not corrupted in the sense we think of corruption. She still had her brilliant mind, still had her "loyalty" to the Galaxy and the Republic, and still wanted to destroy the Sith. Of all things to hate while being infused with the Dark Side, she still managed to fear and hate the True Sith she discovered in the Trayus Academy. I believe, like Kreia said, Revan did not ever fall to the Dark Side. Ever. Even though she was forced to an ocean of Dark Side energy on Malachor, she still managed to survive almost completely intact. How? All evidence of the Dark Side in the Star Wars universe points to it being all consuming and all destructive. Unless, she did not fall but instead embraced it. Instead of letting it control her, she took control of the Dark Side of Malachor V and welcomed it willingly to continue on her journey. She broke it to her will, not the other way around.

 

I do see your point, but while my take on Revan is similar, it differs on a few notable points. Note what Kreia says.

 

Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

 

Here she says that Revan did not fall, but she also says that he sacrificed himself and turned to the dark side. How can both statements be true?

 

Well, Revan goes to Malachor V, which is a world swirling with dark side energies. He is overcome by those, but - and I agree with you there - Revan does not want to be controlled. Revan refuses, but it's a hopeless fight - he cannot survive if he holds onto all his ideals, because no LS person is permitted to live on Malachor V. But wait, Revan's goals are not exclusively LS. Look at what Kreia says again: "someone who was willing to wage war to save others." This means saving the Republic, which is not in itself at odds with the dark side. So Revan can hold onto that ideal, but must sacrifice all others. And if you strip morality away from a leading warhero, then you get a warlord hellbent on destroying all opposition - which is exactly what Revan became.

 

But ironically you could be right about one thing - perhaps the masters' attempt to make Revan a loyal soldier failed exactly because that's what Revan already was, only they didn't realise it.

 

And this proved to be exactly what she needed. Inside the Academy she found the lost archives that would eventually lead her to the Star Forge. The Star Forge, being a Dark Side relic, needed a powerful Dark Side infused being in order to work. Now, Revan could have turned back over to the Light or the Neutral side she had aways been taking, but in light of this news... why not keep the Dark Side a little longer until the Galaxy was in her control and safety? The Star Forge was going to be her tool to take over the Republic, and she had everything she needed to control except it's location.

 

This is where I see things differently. The dark side corrupts. You say that did not happen for Revan, and maybe not to a notable extent, but it also twists and shapes your perceptions, and I think that's where Revan made his mistake. Like Ulic, he thought he could wield the dark side like a weapon, only you can't - the dark side is servant to no one. You can control it only for so long before it controls you.

 

So, all in all... who is to blame here? This is going all the way to the Exile and her Exile from the Jedi Order. Is The Republic to blame for all the death, destruction and chaos? Is the Jedi Order responsible for not acting sooner? Is Revan completely responsible for everything that happened? All of these questions are based on opinion and how you have played the story, so I will leave the answers to you.

 

I would agree with Mical:

 

Disciple: "Many Jedi defied the Order during the Mandalorian Wars - and it paved the way for the Jedi Civil War.There is no blame - all must accept. But at its core, one must wonder if it was the failure of the Jedi teachings... or the teachers themselves. Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing. Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order."

[SilentScope001]

Would he be executed? Yes, most definitely.

 

But should he be executed? No, absolutely not.

 

Actually, I disagree. Revan would NOT be executed, becuase of his high connections to the Jedi Order and with the Republic, for saving them. Besides, Revan running away from the Republic showcases that Revan cannot be executed, at any right.

 

But should Revan be executed? That is under debate, but it is a debate where most people will side with you. Prehaps I'm just a different person...

[EnIgmA_XX]

Actually, I disagree. Revan would NOT be executed, becuase of his high connections to the Jedi Order and with the Republic, for saving them. Besides, Revan running away from the Republic showcases that Revan cannot be executed, at any right.

 

well, IMO, one thing everyone is forgetting a little: guys, it's Star Wars. in sw, redemption pwns everything else. would Revan be executed? psh, he/she wouldn't be executed if Revan we're pure ds and killed 400 times more people than he/she did.

 

But should Revan be executed? That is under debate, but it is a debate where most people will side with you. Prehaps I'm just a different person...

 

hm, looks like i'm one of the oddballs as well...

 

This is where I see things differently. The dark side corrupts. You say that did not happen for Revan, and maybe not to a notable extent, but it also twists and shapes your perceptions, and I think that's where Revan made his mistake. Like Ulic, he thought he could wield the dark side like a weapon, only you can't - the dark side is servant to no one. You can control it only for so long before it controls you.

 

i dunno, my IMO on the dark side is that Revan didn't have a choice on Mal V. Malachor V basically is a large piece of ds, which is why i don't blame Revan for falling in the first place. i heavily doubt that you can control it, in the sense of being perfectly ls or being fairly ls and still being able to stay that way in the gaping maw of Mal V. but i do believe that you can turn away from it. you aren't a slave to it; ds Revan is still Revan, and if people like Malak were incapable of turning away, then Revan's statement to Malak about it being his fault for staying ds is garbage.

 

from a logical and sometimes emotional point of view, Revan thought she was right and that is all that is needed to start something big.

 

well, what is currently under debate is whether war was actually the best option. i just wonder if Revan could've done anything else, this bloodshed seems unnecesary, which is why i'm going for execution. i mean, could Revan have just helped the republic instead? maybe rally forces? because i think what you are saying was what Revan's objective was is to unite the republic against the sith threat. there are possibly other ways of rallying the republic without killing it. if so, then Revan has all that blood on her hands because the war was an unnecesary move.