What If Free Will Is An Illusion?

[tk102]

What if tomorrow physicists unified general relativity with quantum mechanics and showed proof of their results; and suppose also this proof explained away the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle.

 

In short, what if we realized that all of space-time was predetermined.

 

How would this affect you?

[SilentScope001]

Bah. I don't believe in free will already. And there are proofs already that indicate that free will doesn't exist.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

 

And here's a New York Times article about it as well.: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/science/02free.html?ex=1186290000&en=f67863b53437bef0&ei=5087&excamp=mkt_at8

 

In conclusion, many scientist believe there is no free will. So what? It's not as if we know what we are going to do. So, it's not going to affect me that much. I am fuflling whatever path is laid out before me, but I do not know where I am going, and that is the fun part, no?

 

Personal idenitiy might be lost, but I'd prefer to redefine it to be the combination of all the variables that place me on the pre-determined path. If any variable change, then I would be a different person totally. Hence, I still keep personal idenity, even if technically I didn't (consciously) choosen my personality.

[GarfieldJL]

I'd say the scientists were on drugs, simply put I believe we may have possible destinies but we still have to make the choice.

[Samuel Dravis]

What if tomorrow physicists unified general relativity with quantum mechanics and showed proof of their results; and suppose also this proof explained away the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle.

 

In short, what if we realized that all of space-time was predetermined.

 

How would this affect you?

Since the uncertainty principle is random, there's little need for it to be disproven for free will (as it is usually thought of) to be an illusion. Random selection is no more a choice than full-on determinism is.

[mimartin]

It is an interesting premise. So if I give up on life and decide to become a homeless person on the streets according to this it is already predetermined?

 

I had to consult the “A New Hope” for the answer:

I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. No mystical energy field controls my destiny - it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.[/Quote]

 

Dr. Wegner said he thought that exposing free will as an illusion would have little effect on people’s lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.

 

Seriously, to answer your question about how this would affect me is I’d have to live like most people in your spoiler. If it was true and there is no freewill, then what is the point to life in the first place? Like the article said if people freaked out over the notion of evolution then how would this affect them? As freewill is the entire premise of religion, religion would be obsolete and meaningless. If it could be proven then the only to options would be denial or the collapse of all civilized society. Of course if it is true then the outcome is enviable, so there is no reason to worry about it.

[tk102]

I enjoyed that article, SilentScope001. Dr. Weger's quote at the end summarized my expectation:

Dr. Wegner said he thought that exposing free will as an illusion would have little effect on people’s lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.

 

 

Samuel, the concept of something being random implies that things can become something they are not already. But if the nature of the universe was fixed in 4 dimensions of space-time, there is just an eternal Now where everything just IS. Things are only random if you look at something change with reference to 3 or less dimensions. If you take all 4 dimensions altogether, then there is no degree of freedom to be random in.

[Windu Chi]

What if tomorrow physicists unified general relativity with quantum mechanics and showed proof of their results; and suppose also this proof explained away the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle.

Heim's Quantize Spacetime Hyperspace theory, seems to show the possible pathway to unifying general relativity with quantum mechanics, tk 102.

 

In short, what if we realized that all of space-time was predetermined.

Well, according to the world's religions, we will be on the pathway to becoming Gods if that was realized.

Every future event would be able to be predicted, in our universe, if it is a closed universe (spherical universe) with positive curvature.

But if, what we call the visible universe, is flat, then at some distance where spacetime, by the action of dark energy push other galaxies away from us at the speed of light, approximated by equation d=3ct c: speed of light, t: the measured age of the visible universe ~ 4 x 10^26 meters (d:visible universe distance to the observable limit) and estimated at about 40 billion light years; other

universes will possibly intersect ours, with possible different or other laws of physics, that will have unknown effects that will make our apparent discovery of the proof of predeterminism void.

But that's how I think; seem to be always unknowns, I suspect.

 

Also competitiveness will be void, since everybody would already know all the strategies with the application of Game Theory.

Maximum wisdom possibly!

Psychic claims of mental power for seeing the past that link them to knowing the future, will be vindicated.

Also if the Uncertainty Principle is false from the perspective from our visible universe,

then doubt(skepticism) will be replace with sureness(overconfidence).

But even then we are forgetting the infinite multiverses, that we can't imagine the possible implitcations, but my mind almost never stop thinking, about the complexities of existence.

 

We will be on the pathway to becoming Supreme Beings, probably in the far future fighting for control of a small section of the multiverse.

How would this affect you?

Well, it won't affect me at all, I'm infinitely open-minded, but I wouldn't want be a god or Supreme Being in future.

I don't want power, all I want is knowledge and understanding of existence.

[True_Avery]

To me, knowing that time is pre-determined would be odd.

 

Religion: An all mighty uproar of "We are right!" would spread across the world. I don't know about you, but Religious people believe they are right far too often enough. If we learned that time was -actually- predetermined then I believe that would give the idea that a god(s) does exist both spiritually and scientifically. That would possibly break the barrier between science and religion and either unify them or cause another crusade to abolish the atheists, agnostics, scientists, and each other. The odds are quite high, in my opinion, of something like this not going well at all for the world. It takes sometimes the smallest spark to start a huge conflict and we are overdue for some more crusades. Although, it could go the other way and the religious could see it as a scam made by the scientists. I have noted that some people jump directly onto something that might prove the existence of a God, others simply ignore it entirely and choose the "ignorance is bliss" path.

 

Personally, I do not believe people could comprehend the idea that God actually exists. I believe it to be a belief, even to the most hardcore of the religious. Knowing that a God or Gods -actually- exists would do a variety of things to the human mind, many of which I doubt are pleasant. I know I am going to Get burned for saying that, but oh well. I believe the human mind to be a simply thing not able to truly comprehend something bigger than it.

 

Science: So, what would this mean for science? I am not entirely sure. The religious side is easy to predict because, well, they tend to take things like a simply book saying Jesus was married to the degree of actually hurting people. For science I could see this being a major breakthrough, but it could go both ways. Discovering time is pre-determined might actually be the thing to unify science and religion together majorly for the first time in history to an extent. Or... the scientists could all get lynched. Both of those are extremes, so I would guess that it would arise conflict between the two groups even moreso than now. It would open doors to many different forms of science and many new discoveries to come, giving us technology such as time travel and ways to bend space and time for travel faster than lightspeed.

 

Society: As said before in the thread, finding out the space and time was pre-determined could have large scale effects on people. I don't doubt that it could cause large scale depression and an inflow of new people into religion. One of the largest things a discovery like his would do is make People aware of their own mortality. And what do people do when they become afraid of death? Logically, they invent or go to a religion to seek comfort in the belief that what is after death is paradise. Quite frankly, for both atheists and religious... and well all humans alike, the one fear that every being posses is a fear of death, regardless of what they say. The religious hide behind thoughts of heaven, hell, paradise, underworld, etc from a subconscious fear of death. Now, as I hope some of you realize, this does not stop at the religious. Atheists have just as much to fear, even though some would like to believe they are soul-less, emotionless monsters. Logically, what happens after death is nothingness. That is terrifying to all people. Now, we do not think of this day by day or we would literally go insane. But proof on both the religious and scientific side that life is pre-determined would be terrifying in the way it would remind people that they really do not have control over their own life.

 

Now, going even further. Knowing that time is pre-determined is a shock that can wear off and go away, becoming part of normal everyday life. But what if we actually discovered a way of knowing the pre-determined time? That is a deeply frightening thought. If we knew time, could it be changed if it was pre-determined? Even though that we know it cannot be changed, by knowing it could we try to stop it and even possibly succeed? That is deeply deeply frightening because it then gives human kind the power of a near God. I also suspect that if the public, if people actually knew the time of their own death, how it would happen, and why... then the suicide rate would increase dramatically as well as good will to others and possibly even mass insanity.

 

As I already stated, the thought of death makes peoples minds recoil. Knowing your own death... literally. Now, I don't want you to read that casually. I want you to really think deeply on that. This is not looking down a gun barrel and knowing you might or are going to die. This is not a person telling you they will kill you tomorrow. This is not sitting on a hospital bed after being told you have 2 weeks to live. Some of those come close, but they do not hold the same power. Knowing your death, 100% knowing and seeing and knowing how, when, and why is happens could do 1 of 2 things:

 

1# For some it would give life more flavor, give them more incentive to continue living and do their very best to make the lives of those around them better. For some, this happens quite often. People that know they will probably die in 6 years do things for themselves and others that would have never been achieved otherwise. They live life to its fullest and sometimes enjoy and treasure it more than they ever have in their life. For humanity to do this would be incredible. It would give so many more people a want to be better.

 

2# Insanity. As I said, knowing and "knowing" are different things. For some people, this realization and knowing of their death would most likely cause their minds to cave in. I highly doubt many people can truly comprehend something as awesome and all-powerful as knowing your own death. The suicide rate would increase dramatically. As I also asked before, would knowing time give us the power of a God to change it in a way? I mean, KNOWING IT. If we knew it was pre-determined... pfft, who cared. That can pass... but actually KNOWING TIME ITSELF. Would that break the timeline and change time... actually allowing people free will? Would true, actual true free will make us Gods? I don't know, but it is an interesting thought. People would fall apart, people would go insane, people would not know what to do with their life.

 

But then a new question arises... if time is pre-determined, would finding out time is pre-determined be pre-determined? If so, then the good will and insanity that would follow would simply be part of the timeline of the world. In the end, we would truly have zero control over ourselves and that thought might still work with the timeline to eventually ending humanity by it collapsing upon itself.

 

Then another question on both religion and science... could viewing time give us proof of a God or not? That would be the most frightening aspect of that by far. We there is proof, then many scientists would fall apart. If it was proved there is not a God, then Religion would fall apart. That is also a disturbing thought to me.

 

But, if you think about it, life is pre-determined for us and there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop that. The average person is born, has children, and dies. Besides the child variable, what happens if Life and Death. That is what makes us us alive. Our bodies are what make us animal (even though some silly beings don't like to believe that), and like all animals, all life... we die. We have no control over that fact. We live... and we die. What happens in-between those two is irrelevant in the end to all but other life forms, meaning absolutely nothing in the long run. Earth will out live us, repair what we have done to it, and continue on. How kind you are to your children, how much you love people, or how absolutely cruel you are to people means absolutely nothing in the long run but to the religious and spiritual who believe that life is simply a test run under the rules of Right and Wrong.

 

I believe some of you will disagree with me, agree with me, and possibly get angry at me for telling you life is irrelevant in the end. That, in my opinion, proves I am right. People who get angry at the thought that life is irrelevant believe that they should leave a mark on the world. Give life to people, give hope and love to people so that they can live on and have children of their own, repeating the cycle all under the influence of how well you did in life. They believe life is precious, all being deserve life, and everybody should have the opportunity to live a full healthy life regardless of what they do. But when all humans are gone, what does any of that matter? All we are really done for this planet is wipe out a large portion of its forests and cause thousands of species to go extinct. We kill animals everyday for our gluttony, destroy forests for our houses and buildings, and pump poison into the air in order to transport from point A to B. Regardless of how much "good" you believe you are doing, you do things every second of your day that affects the world around you for the "bad". Just look around your room at a few things that might have costs the life of other things and come back to me.

 

Now, that was from a logical standpoint. From a religious standpoint, what we do on Earth is a test. Sure, all humans may eventually be gone one day, but what we do on Earth matters in the end. Morals of right and wrong classify the world in -almost- black and white, those who follow a correct way of life and those who do not. But in the end, even those who do wrong have a chance at redemption. They have a chance at forgiveness. Which is a beautiful thing at face value to be honest. If there is truly something watching over me, I want to know that when I die all that I have done, both good and bad, can be laid out and forgiven. I -want- there to be a paradise when I die. I -want- to be forgiven for what I have done, even if I didn't realize it was wrong at the time. If life truly is a test of ourselves, then I try to be the person I believe a God would truly want me to be. I love the movie Dogma's thoughts that spirituality is the key, not the beliefs thrown on top of it. I will live my life the way I want to live it, not the ways others tell me to from a book. I believe that will be good enough for a God, or Goddess in my case

 

There is so much that could happen if something like this was truly discovered, and we actually had a way to see the timeline of the universe. I think humanity is better off not knowing, traveling the course it is without too much thought on pre-determined time and just focus on what we do best... focusing on the now.

[Samuel Dravis]

Samuel, the concept of something being random implies that things can become something they are not already. But if the nature of the universe was fixed in 4 dimensions of space-time, there is just an eternal Now where everything just IS. Things are only random if you look at something change with reference to 3 or less dimensions. If you take all 4 dimensions altogether, then there is no degree of freedom to be random in.

I know that. I mean that, even if there was 'true' randomness in the universe, it still wouldn't create free will as it's usually thought of, i.e., people making choices. Determinism would be closer to free will than the chance, actually. TK, what do you define free will as?

To me, knowing that time is pre-determined would be odd.

 

Religion: An all mighty uproar of "We are right!" would spread across the world. I don't know about you, but Religious people believe they are right far too often enough. If we learned that time was -actually- predetermined then I believe that would give the idea that a god(s) does exist both spiritually and scientifically. That would possibly break the barrier between science and religion and either unify them or cause another crusade to abolish the atheists, agnostics, scientists, and each other. The odds are quite high, in my opinion, of something like this not going well at all for the world. It takes sometimes the smallest spark to start a huge conflict and we are overdue for some more crusades. Although, it could go the other way and the religious could see it as a scam made by the scientists. I have noted that some people jump directly onto something that might prove the existence of a God, others simply ignore it entirely and choose the "ignorance is bliss" path.

I don't know about that...it seems to me that even if this were discovered, it wouldn't change the status of God as being something unproven. It is in keeping with many religions, it's true, that God does intend for everything to happen as it has done..but they also state there is some sort of true free will. I'd imagine it would cause more trouble for the religious than anyone else, because they'd have to figure out a real explanation about why people are bad.

 

Then another question on both religion and science... could viewing time give us proof of a God or not? That would be the most frightening aspect of that by far. We there is proof, then many scientists would fall apart. If it was proved there is not a God, then Religion would fall apart. That is also a disturbing thought to me.

TBH, if I knew the answer to that question I would be pleased. It's the not knowing that irritates me. I am curious, though, why should scientists fall apart unless they have some preconcieved notions about something they shouldn't... and religion, frankly, deserves falling apart it if it has been saying something it's not sure of and passing it off to its followers as the truth.

[Mike Windu]

I'd say oh well. But the realization that free will is an illusion would only make me confident in realizing my potential.

[tk102]

I know that. I mean that, even if there was 'true' randomness in the universe, it still wouldn't create free will as it's usually thought of, i.e., people making choices. Determinism would be closer to free will than the chance, actually. TK, what do you define free will as?

That's true, you need an agent that is already "free" to have free will. True unfixed randomness will not bring it about, but it does give the free agent "room to move". I guess I'd borrow this definition of free will*:

"The power or ability to rationally choose and consciously perform actions, at least some of which are not brought about necessarily and inevitably by external circumstances".

If randomness is fixed, then there is no degree of freedom. Even if there is a transcendent soul behind the body, it would have no power to affect the body in this predetermined universe.

 

 

If we learned that time was -actually- predetermined then I believe that would give the idea that a god(s) does exist both spiritually and scientifically.

I'd imagine it would cause more trouble for the religious than anyone else, because they'd have to figure out a real explanation about why people are bad.

QFE, SD. Who is responsible for my evil actions? Calvinism anyone?

 

Knowing that time is pre-determined is a shock that can wear off and go away, becoming part of normal everyday life. But what if we actually discovered a way of knowing the pre-determined time? That is a deeply frightening thought.

Really? I think it'd be rather peaceful. We'd all get off the stage and go sit in the audience and watch the world unfold even though we've already seen this movie. I think it would do away with fear, because after all, fear is fear of the unknown, of the pending.

[Gargoyle King]

In short, what if we realized that all of space-time was predetermined.

 

How would this affect you?

 

Ahh, are you referring to "fate", 'cause if you are (call me old-fashioned) but i believe in fate as you can't pre-determine your choices and how they will affect the course of your life.

[Ferc Kast]

What if tomorrow physicists unified general relativity with quantum mechanics and showed proof of their results; and suppose also this proof explained away the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle.

 

In short, what if we realized that all of space-time was predetermined.

 

How would this affect you?

Yes. But, what if free will isn't an illusion?

 

We do have agency, the power to determine our own actions. I.E. Posting on LucasForus as opposed to another website, listening to music we like, read a book instead of being on the computer, etc.

[Jae Onasi]

Well, if we didn't have free will, Calvin would feel vindicated. The pre-destination/free will discussion has been going on a very long time in Christian circles--how does an all-knowing God allow us free will? Can we really have free will if God knows what good/evil we're going to commit?

 

If everything were predestined, it would mean that things like evil and hell (for those who believe it) were also predestined. A God who is infinitely good would not force someone to commit evil. That is out of character. Since no one is forced to commit evil, there must be free will involved.

 

I'm only addressing the theistic side. I couldn't tell you how atheists would handle this concept.

[SilentScope001]

Yes. But, what if free will isn't an illusion?

 

We do have agency, the power to determine our own actions. I.E. Posting on LucasForus as opposed to another website, listening to music we like, read a book instead of being on the computer, etc.

 

Proof?

 

The Scientists in that article seems to have scientific arguments to back their beliefs. But if you like to believe that we do have a "prime mover" self that only moves his or herself, and nothing else...well, so be it.

 

If everything were predestined, it would mean that things like evil and hell (for those who believe it) were also predestined. A God who is infinitely good would not force someone to commit evil. That is out of character. Since no one is forced to commit evil, there must be free will involved.

 

Alternatively, God may not even control who we are, but we still have no free will. We may not have free will, but if we are randomly determined rather than having God dictate our destiny (see the Random Intelligent Creation Engine I written about a while back), then it showcases that God may still be good and that God in fact loves Good and that God in fact hates Evil, and that God does not create Evil, but rather, it is the RICE that God do not know how it works, and hence we are following whatever the RICE tells us to do.

 

As Saumel Darvis said, the world does not need to have someone dictate to us what is right and wrong...it could all be randomly generated. And RICE could act as a reasonable subsitute for Free Will, avoiding most tough problems associated with the Problem of Evil.

[Darth InSidious]

What if tomorrow physicists unified general relativity with quantum mechanics and showed proof of their results; and suppose also this proof explained away the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle.

 

In short, what if we realized that all of space-time was predetermined.

 

How would this affect you?

Ignore it and get on with my life.

 

It's probably the same as all the other sensationalist bits of scientific theory that have flitted briefly in the limelight in recent years.

 

Even if it were true, any response I had to it would be predetermined, predictable and therefore not worthy of comment anyway.

 

So generally I think that COPULATION it's a load of small rubber things that go 'nyik-nyik. Nyeeeeeee-yik'.

[Totenkopf]

Frankly, I rather doubt that science will ever to be able to prove determinism. It makes for nice parlor scenarios, but doesn't seem realistic. What we do know is that people are confronted by choices daily and how they respond is a reflection of their grasp on the world around them. Determism smacks of the same cop-out as "the devil made me do it", a complete abrogation of personal responsibility.

[SilentScope001]

Frankly, I rather doubt that science will ever to be able to prove determinism. It makes for nice parlor scenarios, but doesn't seem realistic. What we do know is that people are confronted by choices daily and how they respond is a reflection of their grasp on the world around them. Determism smacks of the same cop-out as "the devil made me do it", a complete abrogation of personal responsibility.

 

But what causes people to make those choices? Is it due to the fact that they are "free"? Or is it because they are controlled by other factors, like the enviroment, how they are raised, what they are told is right and wrong, your genetic information, etc.

 

If a person was born in Germany, and because of his borning in Germany and having German nationalism, he joined the Nazis, then did he control he joining the Nazis. Sure, he made the choice, but he did it because he loved Germany and he loved Germany because he was born in Germany and was told to have nationalistc pride. Now, if that said person was born in America, he would have American nationalism, have nationalistic pride in America, and join the US Army in battling the Nazis. Here, the only variable that mattered in what side this person would join (Nazis or USA) is basically based on where he was born (and therefore what side he feels affinity towards)...then is he truly in control?

 

And you still have personal responsiblity. Even if you have no control over what you do, you still have done it. That will not be taken away at all.

 

Just trying to figure out other people's viewpoints, just all.

[Ray Jones]

According to chaos theory and chaos sciences everything is deterministic. So is every process in our brain. No matter how much we'd like to have "free will and fate", it won't happen. All the things happening to a person are related to all the things that have happened all the bazagillions of years before. Already with the Big Bang it was clear Ray will make the girls happy and he will die in an excessive threesome. Heisenberg does not contradict this.

 

But I don't care about it. Knowing the truth gives me the calm. Oh wait. I could not think otherwise anyway.

[Jae Onasi]

DI, that's sure one way to attract all the randy guys to read your post. .

[Windu Chi]

If randomness is fixed, then there is no degree of freedom.

If the universe is predetermined, it's complex structure and entangle interconections will have to be set by an outside intelligent influence.

The predetermined universe intricate settings of the iterated motions, of the matter, energy with it's interactions of the forces gravity and electromagnetism, will have to be already preprogramed by this outside intelligent influence.

But of course a infinite regression of intelligent influences.

If randomness is fixed, then the matter and energy interactions in the 3-D space with the time flow settings, because of matter and energy effect on distorting of time and space. Will have to be preprogramed, by the external intelligence.

 

So, the proof of God!

But that is already accepted by me, but I believe because of my infinite open-mindness, in infinite Supreme Beings, not just one.

 

No degree of freedom, we probably won't be obviously be aware, since that can be the case now, no free will, I think we alone are far to insignificant, to comprehend it's implications, in relation with the vastness of our visible universe and it's interactions of matter and energy, in comparison, to the preset motions of the pool ball like interactions of matter and energy with the two dominate known obvious forces of nature, gravity and electromagnetism.

 

But conceiving the possibility of awareness of having or not having free will, is the big question.

But there always is unknowns to ponder.

Even if there is a transcendent soul behind the body would have no power to affect the body in this predetermined universe.

If the soul is transcendent it will probably be linked to a external intelligence, that intelligence will probably control what the soul or any souls will do.

That intelligence will give the power to the soul or souls.

 

But what do you mean by, "no power to affect the body"?

The soul seem to have no power over the body anyway.

It don't give us powers like the Force.

But, I'm not going to ruled that out completely, but this soul gives us nothing, it seems, from present inspection.

 

Really? I think it'd be rather peaceful. We'd all get off the stage and go sit in the audience and watch the world unfold even though we've already seen this movie. I think it would do away with fear, because after all, fear is fear of the unknown, of the pending.

 

 

I think it will be a small disturbance in society, skeptics will be devastated, their doubt of local (to our visible universe) apparent ultimate knowledge will be void, the religious, won't care, since they have transcended beliefs of least one Supreme Being, out of the infinite Supreme Beings, that I and some others already believe to exist out there in the infinite existence.

Atheists will have to accept the existence of at least one of the infinite Supreme Beings, since predeterminism, would imply a biased influence, that because of that proof and evidence that all events are already set, they will have accept that only a outside intelligence can have the ability to set the pre program events, of something as complex as a universe.

I think Mathematicians, will accept the realization of predeterminism: with predeterminism some intelligence would've to had set the fixed randomness settings, so to them it will come the prospect of intricate order, full prediction ( if the Uncertainity Principle no longer apply ), full meaning to the universe, that will be very pleasing to them.

Philosopher are the open-minded, so no effect at all, either way.

Well, they should be, the open-minded.

Only a strong affect on a philosopher poisoned with skepticism, if predeterminism is proved and the Uncertainity Principle no longer apply.

 

The normal layman or laywomen, probably won't make no difference, since they won't be concern with such matters.

Their concern will only be in their small sphere of influcence and the region of their life.

 

Already with the Big Bang it was clear Ray will make the girls happy and he will die in an excessive threesome.

Heh, Heh!

Now, that's my kind of party!

[Totenkopf]

But what causes people to make those choices? Is it due to the fact that they are "free"? Or is it because they are controlled by other factors, like the enviroment, how they are raised, what they are told is right and wrong, your genetic information, etc.

 

If a person was born in Germany, and because of his borning in Germany and having German nationalism, he joined the Nazis, then did he control he joining the Nazis. Sure, he made the choice, but he did it because he loved Germany and he loved Germany because he was born in Germany and was told to have nationalistc pride. Now, if that said person was born in America, he would have American nationalism, have nationalistic pride in America, and join the US Army in battling the Nazis. Here, the only variable that mattered in what side this person would join (Nazis or USA) is basically based on where he was born (and therefore what side he feels affinity towards)...then is he truly in control?

 

And you still have personal responsiblity. Even if you have no control over what you do, you still have done it. That will not be taken away at all.

 

Just trying to figure out other people's viewpoints, just all.

 

 

 

If you have no control over your actions (like a figure in a story), then you bear no responsibility for those actions. That responsibility belongs to the puppet master who pulled your strings in the first place. You didn't make the choice, it was made for you.

 

The fact that your list of choices in life might be proscribed by your circumstances does not relieve you of any responsibility for the choices you end up making. Now the interesting question would be that if your are basically mentally retarded and burn down a house, to what extent are you responsible for your actions. Arguably in this case your mind is too limited to make reasonable decisions. Is "God/god/RICE" responsible? Or just society?

 

To take your example, what then of the conscientous objectors/draft dodgers? They were Americans or Germans that probably loved their countries as well. Yet they did not make the same choices as those in your example. Did they have "free will"? Same goes for the German underground.

 

Who/what exactly is it that you thinks "controls" our destinies or choices in life? And, if they are the ones that decide what we do, how can we really be responsible for any actions commited by the bodies our minds/souls inhabit? Why are we not merely along for the ride?

[tk102]

A couple points on the religious bits:

 

- Although predeterminism is compatible with the notion of an omniscient God, I don't see how proving predeterminism proves God's existence. I think that is still a matter of faith.

 

- If there is no free will, what happens to the theist's concept of a soul? What purpose is there for it? It cannot act freely through the body. It cannot act freely through the mind. What is the soul doing? Why even postulate that one exists?

 

- The concept of salvation and damnation no longer makes any sense in the framework of predeterminism. Before I was even born, before my parents were born, my fate was already written. So where is the purpose of worship?

 

 

On the topic of personal responsibility, what difference does it make who we blame? It's all predetermined what we think anyway right? That is to say, or act of blaming is also predetermined, and so are the consequences we assign to the guilty. The only practical view is to happily forget predeterminism and get on with life as we know it. The more I think about this thread, the more it blows my little mind.

 

The only comfortable religious viewpoint I can see in this framework is that of monism.

[SilentScope001]

If you have no control over your actions (like a figure in a story), then you bear no responsibility for those actions. That responsibility belongs to the puppet master who pulled your strings in the first place. You didn't make the choice, it was made for you.

 

Then we are using different definitions. I don't think choice is needed for responsiblity at all.

 

The Definition of Responsible I Use (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/responsible):

3. Being a source or cause.

 

If you caused something, you are responsible for it. Someone may cause you to cause something, but it is your responsiblity, since you caused it. That other thing may also be responsible, but you play a role as well.

 

The fact that your list of choices in life might be proscribed by your circumstances does not relieve you of any responsibility for the choices you end up making.

 

Of course not. You are responsible for anything that happens because of what you do, what you cause. Then is there a reason for you objecting to this, then?

 

To take your example, what then of the conscientous objectors/draft dodgers? They were Americans or Germans that probably loved their countries as well. Yet they did not make the same choices as those in your example. Did they have "free will"? Same goes for the German underground.

 

But then why would anyone join the Underground?

 

Sticking with the Nazi example, let say this person who was born in Germany got exposed to liteature that talks about the glory of freedom, of America, etc. Reading this book changed him. Or what if he had friends, or parents, or even a preacher who told him that freedom was good? All these variables caused this person to join with the Underground.

 

If it wasn't for these variables, if it wasn't for him listening to messages about freedom and being told that the Nazis were evil, he would have joined the Nazis and be very, very happy.

 

There is still no free will involved. You are still controlled by outside sources.

 

Who/what exactly is it that you thinks "controls" our destinies or choices in life? And, if they are the ones that decide what we do, how can we really be responsible for any actions commited by the bodies our minds/souls inhabit? Why are we not merely along for the ride?

 

God. Or, for the more atheistically-inclined, the Big Bang and the Cosmic Strings. You are responsible because you are a tool for the Big Bang/God. You caused many events to happen. You compel people to do stuff or not to do stuff. You cause something, hence you are responsible. You do not need to have control over anything to be responsible.

 

Let take the burning down of a house. Now, this mentally retarded person who cannot think burnt down the house. He had no control over burning down the house, and he could be forgiven for doing such a thing. But, he was responsible for doing it, since had he not been at the house, he would have not burnt it down.

 

Why are we not merely along for the ride? I'd used Jae's view that just because the Intelligent Designer has a belief of what is going to happen, but he will not going to stop us from taking the test just because he knows the results. And RICE works really well because God does not know what will happen, and therefore he has to place us on the Earth to figure out what RICE has generated.

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EDIT: If you really want to blame God/RICE for all the problems in the world due to determinism, you can, but "evil" is a point of view, and keep in mind that even for 'good' Gods, benevloent dictatorships are usually not that pretty at all.

[GarfieldJL]

Even according to religion people have free will at least according to Judaism and Christianity. How do you think people can sin, if everything is predetermined why would people sin? Seriously, Free will exists, certain events can be predetermined, but people still have the ability to choose their own fates to greater or lesser extent even if they don't necessarily realize it.