10 things Christians and Atheists can(and must) agree on

[SilentScope001]

Well that sort of blows the entire website out of the water.

 

Only one thing Christians and Atheists can agree on:

 

1)The other side is wrong.

[jonathan7]

Well that sort of blows the entire website out of the water.

 

Only one thing Christians and Atheists can agree on:

 

1)The other side is wrong.

 

That depends on the Christians and Atheists; as I have said before I have far more respect for Atheists who are well thought out and logically coherrant than I do incoherrant and naive Christians. Indeed I would somewhat assert I probably have more in common with someone like Achilles than I do the majority of my brothers and sisters in Christ. That is to say that most of my Christian brethren would probably consider some of my beliefs heretical, but I believe them because I think that is the conclusion the evidence suggests. I on the whole have found that alot of Christians are quite anti-intellectual; I was recently laughed at for suggesting the earth is several billions years old; instead of 7,000 years old. Or to put it another way I will quote Bertrand Russell; “The fundamental difference between the liberal and illiberal outlook is that the former regards all questions as open to discussion and all opinions as open to a greater or less measure of doubt, while the latter holds in advance that certain opinions are absolutely unquestionable, and that no argument against them must be allowed to be heard. What is curious about this position is the belief that if impartial investigation were permitted it would lead men to the wrong conclusion, and that ignorance, therefore, the only safeguard against error. This point of view is one which cannot be accepted by any man who wishes reason rather than prejudice to govern human action.” I tend to find most (clarification over 51%) Christians are illiberal thinkers.

[SilentScope001]

That depends on the Christians and Atheists;

 

Oh. Sorry then. My bad.

[mimartin]

I don't have the patience to dig for it and the search function is almost useless right now.[/Quote]Careful Achilles you may have to remove foot from mouth it is my understanding that our newest Administrator is working on that problem. Thanks for the link to your previous post. I do not remember reading it before.

 

Indeed. If god is real, I see no reason to let him off the hook for his complicity.[/Quote] Stepped into that one before, will not make the same mistake twice.

 

He could put a stop to it all in an instant with modern version of the bible, free of contradictions and ambiguity. How can you not see how he would bear some responsibility, my friend?[/Quote] That would just add more contradictions to the whole "Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed" thing (my favorite passage in the Bible, by the way). How many would still reject a modern version of the Bible if it contradicts their teachings? I get your point and if I was the questioning kind it does have merit, but as you know I have no answer to it.

 

You and I both already know that I agree fully with this [/Quote]As do I.

 

That works fine for individuals, but on a national scale? In a country that is largely non-religious/secular?[/Quote] Example please (so that I understand what you mean).

 

Mental illness is mental illness as you state. I don't think we could use Andrea Yates as the norm for social behavior though, do you?[/Quote] I was only suggesting mental illness would be more of a defense in saying that “God made me do it.” Unless your mentally ill or Pat Robinson I don’t believe that is much of a defense.

 

Generally speaking though, a culture that favors rational thought is not going to provide many places for groups such as the Westboro Baptist Church, or the KKK, etc to take hold.[/Quote] I would rather live in a culture that allows these extremist to exist than a society that outlawed them. That said I would like to live in a society that did not give these groups the publicity they seek and prosecuted them when they stepped out of line.

 

Only one thing Christians and Atheists can agree on:

 

1)The other side is wrong.

LOL

Oh. Sorry then. My bad.

No, I thought it was funny, even though I tend to agree with Achilles even in religious discussion threads. I just can not get past that whole believing part.

[Achilles]

Since I have a few moments while Mask of the Betrayer installs...

 

Careful Achilles you may have to remove foot from mouth it is my understanding that our newest Administrator is working on that problem.

Actually, I'm really peeved that I can't find it. I hope he does get it fixed.

 

Thanks for the link to your previous post. I do not remember reading it before.

My pleasure.

 

That would just add more contradictions to the whole "Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed" thing (my favorite passage in the Bible, by the way). How many would still reject a modern version of the Bible if it contradicts their teachings? I get your point and if I was the questioning kind it does have merit, but as you know I have no answer to it.

Probably lots, but at least we'd have firm ground to work from. Applying some moral objectivity can only help the situation so far as I'm concerned.

 

Example please (so that I understand what you mean).

Your comment seemed to be geared toward individual relationships with god. My earlier comment focused on society as a whole. I only sought to pull us back toward the point I was making.

 

I was only suggesting mental illness would be more of a defense in saying that “God made me do it.” Unless your mentally ill or Pat Robinson I don’t believe that is much of a defense.

*shrugs* Perhaps. What about those that say "god wants me to do it" and then point to the chapter and verse that support the claim? These people have nowhere to hide in a rational society free of superstition (my "monsters" vs yours).

 

I would rather live in a culture that allows these extremist to exist than a society that outlawed them.

Who said anything about outlawing anything? You underestimate the power of social norms [/Darth Vader]

 

That said I would like to live in a society that did not give these groups the publicity they seek and prosecuted them when they stepped out of line.

...then again maybe you don't.

[mimartin]

Your comment seemed to be geared toward individual relationships with god. My earlier comment focused on society as a whole. I only sought to pull us back toward the point I was making.[/Quote] Sorry, I just tend to think of religion and my relationship with God on a personal level. Actually, felt our American forefathers were pretty smart with that whole separation of Church and State idea.

 

*shrugs* Perhaps. What about those that say "god wants me to do it" and then point to the chapter and verse that support the claim? [/Quote] You are correct, but these people are not too rational to do that. I agree people can use the Bible to justify anything they want to. That does excuse them or justified in their actions. The same applies if you are talking about individuals or nations.

 

*These people have nowhere to hide in a rational society free of superstition (my "monsters" vs yours).

You have a lot more faith in the intelligence of the average American than I do. Achilles you are an optimist. Even if we produce overwhelming evidence that there was “no God,” do you actually believe that would free society of superstition? I believe we would just add others to take “Gods” place.

[Tommycat]

Even if we produce overwhelming evidence that there was “no God,” do you actually believe that would free society of superstition? I believe we would just add others to take “Gods” place.

There's some truth to that.... Rabid environmentalism springs to mind...

[Jae Onasi]

What about those that say "god wants me to do it" and then point to the chapter and verse that support the claim?

 

"Nietzsche wants me to do it." --Stalin

[Achilles]

You are correct, but these people are not too rational to do that.

On what basis? If they believe that god is real and the bible is his word, then carrying out his will would seem perfectly rational, wouldn't it? Looking at the ethical argument requires being able to step away from faith.

 

I agree people can use the Bible to justify anything they want to. That does excuse them or justified in their actions.

(assuming that was supposed to be "doesn't")

 

Of course not, but it certainly provides context. At some point the system has to bear some responsibility for complicity or else it will never change.

 

You have a lot more faith in the intelligence of the average American than I do. Achilles you are an optimist.

I believe that no matter the individual's aptitude, people are a product of their environment (caveats apply).

 

Change the environment and you can expect something different (aka "garbage in/garbage out").

 

Even if we produce overwhelming evidence that there was “no God,” do you actually believe that would free society of superstition? I believe we would just add others to take “Gods” place.

First off, your bar is impossibly high. No one can prove that something doesn't exist. Second off, where does the superstition come from? Hint: enculturation. Stop indoctrinating children and it wouldn't take long. Course, what's going to convince the parents to stop? Chicken and the egg.

 

I still think it's simply a matter of time (even though I won't see it in my lifetime).

 

There's some truth to that.... Rabid environmentalism springs to mind...

LOL! And what, pray tell, are the dangers of environmentalism run amok?

 

"I woke up...*gasp*...and I went outside...THE NEWSPAPER WAS PRINTED ON RECYCLED PAPER, OH DEAR GOD!!! And the people...*gasp* *pant* the people...the people were CARPOOLING!!! THE HUMANITY!!"

 

"Nietzsche wants me to do it." --Stalin

"A stitch in time saves nine" - Proverb.

 

That was fun! Let's do another (you go first again!).

[Corinthian]

Those who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones.

[Tommycat]

LOL! And what, pray tell, are the dangers of environmentalism run amok?

Apparently you fail to notice that environmentalism is becoming darn near a religion. Attacking dairy farms, large scale meat farms, people freeing lab animals, these things have negative affects on both science, and regular people. They are fueled by an almost religious fervor. Demanding this or that animal be spared even though it isn't a protected species, to the point of stopping business growth. Your specialty is business and you haven't seen how much environmentalist activities have cost in jobs and economic growth? Look at how environmentalists have gone to dealerships to destroy the SUV's(though they may have actually helped more than they hurt because the insurance paid for vehicles that might not have sold ). Is it too far of a stretch that people can take something peaceful and corrupt it into something violent? I mean I was physically attacked by Greenpeace members because I served on a nuclear powered submarine. Sure it's not all of Greenpeace that did it, but then again since it's apparently ok to point to the extremes as an example of why you should have concern, I don't see the harm in using that.

[mimartin]

On what basis? If they believe that god is real and the bible is his word, then carrying out his will would seem perfectly rational, wouldn't it?

Looking at the ethical argument requires being able to step away from faith.[/Quote] Not to me, but that would only be speaking to me as I do not know what other believe or think. If I found a passage that told me to find in kill the person that created the cell phone because it was the devils tool. I would believe either I have gone off the deep end or that I was misinterpretation the message. Either way I would not act on the information. I see your point and I agree with it. I would be using something other than religious belief to make that judgment.

 

(assuming that was supposed to be "doesn't")[/Quote]Yea, fairly large mistake there. Thanks.

(Of course not, but it certainly provides context. At some point the system has to bear some responsibility for complicity or else it will never change.[/Quote]Again I will agree with that, but of course I still believe that religion is the problem and not the belief. (What else can I say since I believe).

 

Change the environment and you can expect something different (aka "garbage in/garbage out").[/Quote]We’ve discussed this before and my feelings have not changed. Parents should give children options and not make determinations for them. True with religion or lack there of and politics I would give the children options and not attempt to make them carbon copies of my beliefs.

 

First off, your bar is impossibly high. No one can prove that something doesn't exist.[/Quote] Was speaking only hypothetically.

 

Second off, where does the superstition come from? Hint: enculturation. Stop indoctrinating children and it wouldn't take long. Course, what's going to convince the parents to stop? Chicken and the egg.[/Quote]My feelings are it will take a extremely long time even if you had people that thought like me or you and gave the children the choice of what to believe. Most give the children no choice as you stated they are indoctrinated.

[SilentScope001]

No, I thought it was funny, even though I tend to agree with Achilles even in religious discussion threads. I just can not get past that whole believing part.

 

Ah, but you don't understand. I made a statement that I felt would be effective. Then a Chrisitan came in and said, "No, Christans can agree with Atheists and think they got some valid points and are not wrong at all."

 

Basically, my blanket statement was proven wrong.

 

Sheesh. I can't even make a simple statement without getting refuted by cold hard facts.

[Jae Onasi]

"A stitch in time saves nine" - Proverb.

 

That was fun! Let's do another (you go first again!).

 

Naw, I wouldn't want to steal your thunder.

[John Galt]

And in most of western civilization, it's been pretty OK to be an atheist, ebarrassing, maybe looked down upon, but not a dangerous position to take for the last 100 or so years.

 

You've obviously never been an atheist in Eastern Kentucky.

 

anecdote: A friend of mine was asked by a guy who is on the football team whether he believed in god. He said no, and the guy punched him, and he responded "that was hypocritical of you," and walked away.

[Web Rider]

You've obviously never been an atheist in Eastern Kentucky.

 

anecdote: A friend of mine was asked by a guy who is on the football team whether he believed in god. He said no, and the guy punched him, and he responded "that was hypocritical of you," and walked away.

 

As I already stated, if you're going to pick out some random part of the world were atheists aren't tolerated, then no, it's never been safe to be an atheist.

 

But that's really a poor way of looking at it. There are Muslims in most parts of the world, therefore the world must follow Sharia law right. It fits the rules for classifying it as "safe" to be an atheist, as long as there are some in any area, it must apply to all.

 

No, I'd still say it's pretty safe to be an atheist in much of the modern world.

[John Galt]

As I already stated, if you're going to pick out some random part of the world were atheists aren't tolerated, then no, it's never been safe to be an atheist.

 

But that's really a poor way of looking at it. There are Muslims in most parts of the world, therefore the world must follow Sharia law right. It fits the rules for classifying it as "safe" to be an atheist, as long as there are some in any area, it must apply to all.

 

No, I'd still say it's pretty safe to be an atheist in much of the modern world.

 

Some random part of the world? That's where I live.

 

I think there are a lot of misconceptions on both sides.

[Achilles]

I think big parts of the western world are more secular than we tend to acknowledge. It will be nice when American sensibilities catch up to those of our neighbors across the pond (assuming they haven't allowed themselves to be overtaken by islam)

[jonathan7]

I think big parts of the western world are more secular than we tend to acknowledge. It will be nice when American sensibilities catch up to those of our neighbors across the pond (assuming they haven't allowed themselves to be overtaken by islam)

 

Aye; the UK is now one of the most secular countries in the world; I can't see Islam coming in any time soon though; Mainly as I don't think the average brit could give up bacon opposed to anything else. My big concern here is the PC police; political correctness is killing freedom of speech. Controversially and against the run of most of my brethren, I don't think Christian law should be the law of the land; especially in a country such as the UK where I would estimate that less than 5% of the country is Christian; as that is the case, why should there be Christian law? You don't find Jesus or Paul petitioning the Romans to change their laws in the Bible...

 

I'm not neccasarlily a fan of secularism; however I do think that religion and state should be two different enteties; most men regardless of religion (or non) will opress others if they regard them to be wrong. Few indeed are those who won't persecute another they consier to be in the wrong.

[Balderdash]

The UK is a paradox. We are very secular when it's convenient; hardly anyone goes to church anymore - but we still celebrate Christmas simply because we have nothing better to celebrate. I've never understood why so many people who have never even picked up a bible get so excited at this time of year.

 

You've obviously never been an atheist in Eastern Kentucky.

 

anecdote: A friend of mine was asked by a guy who is on the football team whether he believed in god. He said no, and the guy punched him, and he responded "that was hypocritical of you," and walked away.

I would submit that this incident had more to do with him being a football player than him being from Kentucky, but that said, I couldn't ever imagine anything like that happening here.

[Darth InSidious]

The UK is a paradox.

This sentence contains the most truth of any that has been posted in Kavar's Corner, IMO.

[John Galt]

Well, to be honest, I think most people here don't want to know the truth about atheism, or politics, for that matter. For most of the people I talk to, religion and politics are dealt with exactly the same way: us and them(never mind that they don't know who "they" are half the time). When dubya said "those who aren't with us are against us," he really was speaking for a large portion of this country.

 

Likewise, most people I've talked to claim that there should be no seperation of church and state, and alot of people around here support Mike Huckabee just because he's a preacher(never mind that he lied about having a degree in theology). I heard a preacher at a local church(the largest one in town; it has about 1500 members and 6 or 700 regulars) proclaim from the pulpit that it is the christian duty to persecute those who don't agree with the church. Other than that, he's a great guy, by the way.

 

I wish I was making this stuff up.

[Achilles]

Aye; the UK is now one of the most secular countries in the world; I can't see Islam coming in any time soon though;

Err...might want to take a look at top baby boy names in the UK over the past few years

 

Mainly as I don't think the average brit could give up bacon opposed to anything else. My big concern here is the PC police; political correctness is killing freedom of speech.

Yep, that's what Pat Condell told me as well.

 

Well, to be honest, I think most people here don't want to know the truth about atheism, or politics, for that matter. For most of the people I talk to, religion and politics are dealt with exactly the same way: us and them(never mind that they don't know who "they" are half the time). When dubya said "those who aren't with us are against us," he really was speaking for a large portion of this country.

QFE

[jonathan7]

Err...might want to take a look at top baby boy names in the UK over the past few years

 

Hehe, maybe Muslims aren't as creative with their babies names ;-) I had heard that; I would hypothesize that Muhammed is the most common babies name; still only 4million of 60 million are Muslim; I can't see the flag of Islam flying over no.10 in my lifetime.

 

Yep, that's what Pat Condell told me as well.

 

Enjoying him at the moment....

[Achilles]

Hehe, maybe Muslims aren't as creative with their babies names ;-) I had heard that; I would hypothesize that Muhammed is the most common babies name

I've heard that it is growing the fastest, but it's still 16 spots away from #1.