JCarter426 Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Nevertheless, in this version, I suppose I could allege that Master Kae is not even inferred to be the first master, being the last in the list. I would greatly appreciate verification of the right version before I go further in arguing the wrong quote, heh... Yes, I see the point. However, Mical does mention that Kae taught Revan as a padawan, implying that she was one of his first masters. Kreia also claims to have taught Revan as a padawan, and that he returned to her before going off to the Mandalorian Wars. But you're right, it's just circumstantial. Could you enlighten me please? Well, the Miraluka thing, her age, the fact that Krynda never taught Revan (doesn't look that way, anyhow)...lots things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_shot_the_jedi Posted April 17, 2008 Author Share Posted April 17, 2008 Wow... those are both some very interesting arguments, gents. But something just feels 'right' about Kae and Kreia being one and the same, I can't explain why, but it seems to make sense. But, as I said, I'm not sure why. Perhaps because you've played Knights of the Old Republic II but haven't read the comics; so you feel slightly more biased towards the Kae argument having seen all of the Kae evidence, and little of the Krynda Draay evidence. Well, the Miraluka thing, her age, the fact that Krynda never taught Revan (doesn't look that way, anyhow)...lots things. Similarly, I would assume that you have not seen everything either. Let's confront these apparent issues: Age: You may have noticed that Krynda Draay (see here) appears younger than Kreia does, with far less creases and wrinkles (I doubt it's to do with wrinkle cream). You may also have noticed the image at the top of the page is a combination of a Kreia picture and the Krynda Draay picture in the Wookieepedia article. Now, I'm sure more wrinkles had to be put onto that Krynda Draay face than taken off. With this and Kreia's unknown age in mind, it doesn't require a retcon to make the pieces fit. Miraluka: Neither Krynda nor Kreia had Force Sight to begin with; this much is plain. Both women, however, highly value the power and have an intense wish to use it. Let us suppose that upon acquisition of the power, Krynda used it to its full extent, like her Miraluka father, and allowed the Human eyes she had once used to atrophy and fade from a bright blue to a pale, milky white. This is no retcon or any major leap of faith - it is perfectly plausible, and fits with all previously established lore. Revan: I agree with you; as of yet there has been no direct evidence that Krynda taught Revan. However, according to Alec Squinquargesimus, also known as Malak: "Our master [Revan] is an acquaintance of your Master Lucien". How this came to be, I can only guess, though it certainly links Revan to Krynda through her son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achilles Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Perhaps because you've played Knights of the Old Republic II but haven't read the comics; so you feel slightly more biased towards the Kae argument having seen all of the Kae evidence, and little of the Krynda Draay evidence. Okay, fair enough. But help me out with this part: Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords was released in December 2004 The Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic comic book series launched in January 2006 How did the game developer know to include a comic book character that didn't even exist for more than another year (relative development times nonwithstanding)? Pardon my saying so, but I don't see how this is any thing other than a show-stopper for that the Krynda Draay hypothesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Age: You may have noticed that Krynda Draay (see here) appears younger than Kreia does, with far less creases and wrinkles (I doubt it's to do with wrinkle cream). You may also have noticed the image at the top of the page is a combination of a Kreia picture and the Krynda Draay picture in the Wookieepedia article. Now, I'm sure more wrinkles had to be put onto that Krynda Draay face than taken off. With this and Kreia's unknown age in mind, it doesn't require a retcon to make the pieces fit. Yes, I understand that. However, Krynda was married with a son during the Great Sith War, which would put her at around 50-65 during the comics, and around 60-75 at the time of KOTOR 2. According to statements made by Mr Avellone, Kreia is about 50 during K2. Now, his statements aren't 100% canon, no. But still, when one work goes against the intent of another (in this case, the making a character 10-25 years older than originally intended), that's a retcon. Miraluka: Neither Krynda nor Kreia had Force Sight to begin with; this much is plain. Both women, however, highly value the power and have an intense wish to use it. Let us suppose that upon acquisition of the power, Krynda used it to its full extent, like her Miraluka father, and allowed the Human eyes she had once used to atrophy and fade from a bright blue to a pale, milky white. This is no retcon or any major leap of faith - it is perfectly plausible, and fits with all previously established lore. Krynda didn't originally have Force sight? Didn't know that; I missed one volume (waiting for the TPB...). Still, Kreia's remarks about Visas (calling her "the Miraluka") seem odd if she herself is one (or half of one). So again, Krynda being Kreia doesn't go against canon, but it goes against the developers' intent--another retcon. Revan: I agree with you; as of yet there has been no direct evidence that Krynda taught Revan. However, according to Alec Squinquargesimus, also known as Malak: "Our master [Revan] is an acquaintance of your Master Lucien". How this came to be, I can only guess, though it certainly links Revan to Krynda through her son. Yes, there certainly is some connection between the two. Still, as far as we know Krynda never taught Revan as a padawan. It is explicitly stated in K2 that Kreia did. So this is actually the biggest area that would have to be retconned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_shot_the_jedi Posted April 17, 2008 Author Share Posted April 17, 2008 How did the game developer know to include a comic book character that didn't even exist for more than another year (relative development times nonwithstanding)? Pardon my saying so, but I don't see how this is any thing other than a show-stopper for that the Krynda Draay hypothesis. Achilles my friend, I do not think you have noticed the obvious: Krynda Draay has quite possibly been fabricated to fit around the Kreia story; as Alec was fabricated to become the young Malak. I cannot substantiate my claim, but I can theorise that it is quite possibly true. Yes, I understand that. However, Krynda was married with a son during the Great Sith War, which would put her at around 50-65 during the comics, and around 60-75 at the time of KOTOR 2. According to statements made by Mr Avellone, Kreia is about 50 during K2. Now, his statements aren't 100% canon, no. But still, when one work goes against the intent of another (in this case, the making a character 10-25 years older than originally intended), that's a retcon. Not at all; especially when he contradicts himself with the phrase "like Yoda, who knows?" With this statement, he opened up a whole new can of worms. 50 is is "guess", not his assertion, and perfectly flexible. Krynda didn't originally have Force sight? Didn't know that; I missed one volume (waiting for the TPB...). Still, Kreia's remarks about Visas (calling her "the Miraluka") seem odd if she herself is one (or half of one). So again, Krynda being Kreia doesn't go against canon, but it goes against the developers' intent--another retcon. As I mentioned before, Krynda once stated: "If only my father's blood had been stronger! I would gladly have given my eyes—and yours—for you to be able to see what the Miraluka see!" Edit: I am forever let down by my atrocious lack of observation. I apologize. Nevertheless, Jolly Boots makes some good points below. Again, I must suggest most strongly that the moniker "the Miraluka" (as well as "the blinded one" or "the seer") is no different to those she uses for the other party members: Atton as "the fool", Mical as the "tiny Jedi", Brianna as the "servant of Atris", Mira as "the huntress", T3-M4, HK-47, and G0-T0 all as "machines", Hanharr as "the beast", and Bao-Dur as "the alien". Also, did Krynda, in my quote, ever say "see what my people see"? "The Miraluka" is not unusual, and there is no evidence that any of this is against the developers' intent: Kreia is an extraordinarily deep character who enjoys alienating others. Yes, there certainly is some connection between the two. Still, as far as we know Krynda never taught Revan as a padawan. It is explicitly stated in K2 that Kreia did. So this is actually the biggest area that would have to be retconned. Your argument is illogical: you premise that if X is not true at present, then it never will be. At some point, if we recieve the information that of Krynda's many apprentices, Revan was one of them, this does not change previously established information about Krynda or Kreia, therefore it is not a retcon: it is just filling in the gaps in history. You cannot retcon "intentions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 She did not have Force Sight, yet she would have given her eyes to have it. Er...she did have Force sight. She's saying there that Lucien doesn't, and that she would have given her eyes in order to give him the gift of Force sight. But she still does have it through her Miraluka blood, which is not how Kreia got it. Your argument is illogical: you premise that if X is not true at present, then it never will be. I put it to you that this does not change previously established information, therefore it is not a retcon: it is just filling in the gaps in history. I'm not saying that at all. What I said was that making Krynda Kreia would cause continuity errors, and require a retcon in order to fix those errors, one reason being that as far as we know, Krynda has not taught Revan, while Kreia has. Sure, you could argue away Kreia's age and her Force sight, but that doesn't change the fact that she taught Revan as a padawan, while Krynda did not. Thus, a retcon is in order if Krynda were to become Kreia, to explain this error. Also, I'm not Krynda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 God, how I hate the EU. Who writes this crap? Monkeys? QFT I'm not going to put forward anything those in favour of Kae being Kreia have, but suffice to say I think the two people are one and the same. Achilles my friend, I do not think you have noticed the obvious: Krynda Draay has quite possibly been fabricated to fit around the Kreia story; as Alec was fabricated to become the young Malak. I cannot substantiate my claim, but I can theorise that it is quite possibly true. THis seems to me to be a big reason, as to whu EU writers should be ignored... especially when Cannon states Revan and Malak DIDN'T change their names after become Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly Boots Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Er...she did have Force sight. She's saying there that Lucien doesn't, and that she would have given her eyes in order to give him the gift of Force sight. But she still does have it through her Miraluka blood, which is not how Kreia got it. Actually, Kreia never actually states that she had to learn the ability. The closest thing she says is that she refuses to rely on actual sight, and obviously she has the ability to see both, a trait that Krynda says she has herself. But it was my destiny to have both sight and second sight. THis seems to me to be a big reason, as to whu EU writers should be ignored... especially when Cannon states Revan and Malak DIDN'T change their names after become Jedi. Actually, no specific source states that they didn't change their name. That was just what it appeared to be to the fans. To throw more fuel onto the fire, Kreia has some very interesting lines about "mating" Miralukas. And do not mate with her. Whatever you may feel, whatever... urges consume you, do not let them control you. Such a union would breed... difficulties. Kreia says it as if she knows well (okay, like she does everything else but still) Lucien was described as being a "difficult" birth in which prevented Krynda from serving in the Sith War. Furthermore, to be perfectly fair, Kreia doesn't even state that she's completely human either. So that point is thrown out. Her age, already argued that Avellone never gave a specific age and was vague to the point of it being on purpose. As for Revan, well, no one EVER names Kreia. The only time Kreia is named is by the party members, Sion and a piece of cut dialog from Lonna Vash. Mical can't recall Kreia and so on...Lucien and Revan were also, as stated before, friends (or at least knew each other pretty well ) Yes. It's obvious Krynda was invented by John Jackson Miller and not Avellone. But intentions (cut content), it's not canon unless made otherwise by another source. Avellone may have intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae but that fact didn't make it in so it's not canon and thus anyone who is playing around with the histories of these characters can basically ignore it. It's not a very nice thing to do, for writers to fiddle around with another's character and ignore intentions but I can say that I don't like Arren = Kreia either so each to his own. If Krynda does becoming Kreia, it's not a recon. To me, it's actually pretty neat, especially if Sion ends up being Lucien Draay, considering his connection to a Sion lookalike (Haazen). As well as Luciens jealousy of the Miraluka/Covenant members hogging the attention from his mother, a fact which plays in KOTOR between Sion and the Exile. Should also note that Lucien has a bit of a problem with the Revanchist in Daze of Hate, calling him a "so-called Master" who doesn't speak for the Order. Lucien may merely have a problem with Revan going off against the Order but it can be argued that there is a bit of resentment there - possibly since he is considered his mothers greatest student? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corinthian Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Arren Kae frankly fits the mold much better. It's pretty subtle, though. 1: Arren Kae and Kreia are both known to have been Revan's masters. Both were Jedi, but left the Order. 2: Atton suggests that Kreia was quite attractive in the past but hard living wore her down. Arren Kae is often described as being beautiful. 3: Arren Kae is known to be the mother of the Handmaiden, and Handmaiden states that she honors the face of her mother, the difference being a pair of small braids. Kreia also has braids. Small, but possibly significant. 4: The Jedi Masters, when Kreia shows herself, say that they thought she died during the Mandalorian Wars. This was also believed to have been the fate of Arren Kae. Subtle cluing, but given that it's in TSL rather than in some Comic, I'm more inclined to believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 ^^^ Yeah, I remember that comment from Atton after leaving Peragus. He apparently knew her true identity. He could have known from his service in the war, or as a Sith Assassin, or both, but he definitely knew who she was. Why couldn't they have just gone with Avellone's original idea? Is it some sort of sick punishment for Obsidian's failure to properly finish the game in 13 months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly Boots Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Why couldn't they have just gone with Avellone's original idea? Is it some sort of sick punishment for Obsidian's failure to properly finish the game in 13 months? There are two reasons I can imagine. One is that we don't know if it actually was Avellone's original idea. It may have happened accidentally and he rolled with it, toying with the fans. And two, maybe JJM (and/or Lucas) doesn't like the idea (and neither do I). That's the way a universe written by several writers works. But yeah. It kinda is punishment since if they were able to finish it then maybe it would have worked it's way in and thus JJM can't do what he's playing now in the same way. He'd have to change the names around and reveal Arren Kae sooner then later. That or create a new character from scratch, which may be the case and thus this all just pointless speculation on our part. I quote the editor at Lucas Licensing: "There's no absolute confirmation or denial at this point. Remember that anything authors speculate about, or anyone else for that matter, is not canon until it is in print. Anything can, and often does, change as stories develop." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 I always thought it was because Kreia blamed her for her exile, refusing to admit that it was because the students she taught were failures. Note that she claims Arren was exiled because of her child. Another reason would be that Brianna reminds Kreia of her past, of her failures, etc. Just a couple of theories for you. Something like that came into my mind. Just wanted some more clarifacation, and someone else's opinion, so with that said, Thanks JCarter! One question that I has recently come up with me is that at the end of the game Kreia makes a peculiar comment (or at least in my opinion). It goes along the lines of the Exile being the greatest pupil (student) that she has ever trained. However, wasn't Revan Kreia's apprentice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 I think that in Kreia's eyes, the Exile is greater than Revan for his/her ability to survive without the Force. I don't think that Revan could do that. One is that we don't know if it actually was Avellone's original idea. It may have happened accidentally and he rolled with it, toying with the fans. I find this unlikely in the face of all of the hints that the player is given throughout KotOR2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achilles Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Achilles my friend, I do not think you have noticed the obvious: Krynda Draay has quite possibly been fabricated to fit around the Kreia story; as Alec was fabricated to become the young Malak. I cannot substantiate my claim, but I can theorise that it is quite possibly true. How is it "obvious" if you yourself cannot substantiate it? Clearly it was Avellone's vision at work here. If you want to show that the comic came along after the fact and that it should be given more consideration than the existing work, then that is your claim to prove, not mine or anyone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Something like that came into my mind. Just wanted some more clarifacation, and someone else's opinion, so with that said, Thanks JCarter! No problem. One question that I has recently come up with me is that at the end of the game Kreia makes a peculiar comment (or at least in my opinion). It goes along the lines of the Exile being the greatest pupil (student) that she has ever trained. However, wasn't Revan Kreia's apprentice? Indeed. Kreia actually thought the Exile was better (which must be a definite truth, if we follow that unwritten rule that the sequel's protagonist must be bigger and badder ). Kreia also calls Revan a failure if the Exile falls to the dark side and kills the four masters. What was the exact quote...? Ah, here it is: All I have ever trained have been failures to them, students who went to fight the Mandalorians, who fell to the dark side, who abandoned their training. This I find most fascinating. Yeah, I remember that comment from Atton after leaving Peragus. He apparently knew her true identity. He could have known from his service in the war, or as a Sith Assassin, or both, but he definitely knew who she was. Never thought of that...I suppose it's possible. I just thought Atton was desperate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_shot_the_jedi Posted April 18, 2008 Author Share Posted April 18, 2008 How did the game developer know to include a comic book character that didn't even exist for more than another year (relative development times nonwithstanding)? Pardon my saying so, but I don't see how this is any thing other than a show-stopper for that the Krynda Draay hypothesis. How is it "obvious" if you yourself cannot substantiate it? Clearly it was Avellone's vision at work here. If you want to show that the comic came along after the fact and that it should be given more consideration than the existing work, then that is your claim to prove, not mine or anyone else's. What you have been trying to infer - and please forgive me if I am wrong, but this is how I am interpreting it - is that the Krynda Draay theory must have been the plan all along, or it could not possibly be true. I contend that this is not the only logical conclusion: is it not possible to think that the game developers created a character with very little backstory, and the comic book writers are just filling in the enormous gap? In my belief both theories should be given equal consideration. The Knights of the Old Republic comics are presently actively unfolding a storyline prequel to the games that may reveal many things that we did not yet know about characters in the games (I can't remember John Jackson Miller's exact quote, but I'll try to find it); thus it is difficult to argue that I am certainly wrong until Jack Johnson Miller has wrapped up all loose ends in the last comic of the series. However, the Arren Kae argument, for all its strengths, is entirely static. There have been no further advances to the Arren Kae storyline in these last four years. My argument is that we look to what is happening at this present time, as well as what has happened in the past, and only come to a final conclusion when either theory has been substantiated. Sir, I am simply stating that my theory is a tenable possibility; not a hard fact, though I can and have presented strong evidence for why it has every right to be on this page as the previous theory. To turn it around, how can you substantiate that there was ever "Avellone's vision at work here"? You cannot, and you cannot substantiate your theory any more than I can mine. Please note, my friend, that I am not at any point suggesting that the Arren Kae theory is wrong, only that it could be wrong and that there also may be other possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 I contend that this is not the only logical conclusion: is it not possible to think that the game developers created a character with very little backstory, and the comic book writers are just filling in the enormous gap? If that was the case, how come she (Dray) was never mentioned in the game? At least Kae was mentioned. I'm sorry, but now it seems that you're making suppositions to fit your own theory. I'm not bashing you, but i'm finding it hard to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_shot_the_jedi Posted April 18, 2008 Author Share Posted April 18, 2008 I sincerely apologize if I am lacking in clarity. I'll put it this way: We start with Revan. The comic book writers, several years later, fill in his background as "The Revanchist" and tell us that this title is what the name "Revan" is derived from. In a similar way, we are told that "Malak" is the assumed name of Alek Squinquargesimus. My argument is that there is a fairly good likelihood that the same will happen for the character of Kreia, and that only because Kreia was designed with very little backstory have the comic writers created one which they intend to mold round her existing story. You are entirely correct: Krynda Draay was never mentioned in game, but neither was Kreia's true identity; which has as of yet only been surmised to be Arren Kae, but not proven. This is exactly why Kreia could very possibly be Krynda Draay without any continuity problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyariot Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 I believe that Kae was the original plan for Kriea's identity (it really leans that way in the dialouge's subtle undercurrents) but that it wasn't cemented really, so there is an excellent chance that Krynda will turn out to be Kreia (I wouldn't be shocked anyway, same sort of manipulative nature hinted at). Has anyone noticed the sounds Krynda and Traya combine to form Kreia? Maybe a sort of combination between the two major elements of her life kind-of thing? Seems Kreia-ish. But, I agree that it isn't really confirmed 'til we see it laid out for us (probably in print). Oh, and just because the comic is EU, doesn't make it horrible-quality. The games are EU too, and no one on this board can accuse them of being terrible... not counting the cuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctrl Alt Del Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Of course, if Avellone planned that Kreia would be someone aforementioned, that would be Kae and not Krynda, since the last one was just established on the comics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_shot_the_jedi Posted April 18, 2008 Author Share Posted April 18, 2008 To be frank, I don't think Avellone really has a great degree of influence on further developing the story as his contract with LucasArts was terminated when Obsidian released the game (probably the reason why he was not allowed to disclose any more than "good catch" when it came to the Arren/Kreia theory). I suppose it's all down to current writers now: if LucasArts decide they want to make the Kae/Kreia theory official in a future publication, then they will, but I doubt they'll consult Avellone first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctrl Alt Del Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 To be frank, I don't think Avellone really has a great degree of influence on further developing the story as his contract with LucasArts was terminated when Obsidian released the game (probably the reason why he was not allowed to disclose any more than "good catch" when it came to the Arren/Kreia theory). I completely agree. But as to why would people over at LA and Darkhorse want to chose/create someone else to be Kreia instead of anything Avellone might had especially created is unknown to me. I mean, why bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamqd Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 To be honest, 99.9% of the games era EU is related to K1 (Which makes sense, as a lot is pre Mando wars) but Krynda Draay fought in the sith war and then seemed to put her time in to the Covenant (all Seers), and up to now, there seems to be no link between the covenant and the Revanchist, apart from an acknowledgment between Lucian and the Revanchist at the Coruscant Temple. Apart from Source books re-telling the Game Story, she only appears in TSL, so Your guess is as good as mine... I personally dont wish to see her in the comics (IMO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 ^^^ Neither do I, as it would probably undermine the quality of one of the greatest characters in video game history, as well as Star Wars history in general. That's why I'm so sensitive about this. Kreia's character is awesome as-is, and they need to leave her alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achilles Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 What you have been trying to infer - and please forgive me if I am wrong, but this is how I am interpreting it - is that the Krynda Draay theory must have been the plan all along, or it could not possibly be true. Yep. In order for Chris Avellone and Obsidian Entertainment to create a game character that is supposed to be Krynda Draay, they had to have known about her in the first place. Considering the juxtaposition of the comic in relation to the game, I submit that this is rather unlikely. I contend that this is not the only logical conclusion: is it not possible to think that the game developers created a character with very little backstory, and the comic book writers are just filling in the enormous gap?I contend that there isn't a lack of backstory at all. Obsidian gave us all the pieces and trusted the player to be able to put them together. The comic book writers might be trying to exploit what they percieve to be "an enormous gap" to bastardize the original artist's work and then congratulate themselves on how clever they are, but that wouldn't impress me very much. *jumps head to next post to continue point* I sincerely apologize if I am lacking in clarity. I'll put it this way: We start with Revan. The comic book writers, several years later, fill in his background as "The Revanchist" and tell us that this title is what the name "Revan" is derived from. In a similar way, we are told that "Malak" is the assumed name of Alek Squinquargesimus. Except that Revan's story had to be open in the game because the player was ultimately responsible for Revan's path in the game. In other words, Revan's story can be a blank slate because there was no fixed path for him in the game. This is not the case for Kreia. *jumps back to first post* In my belief both theories should be given equal consideration. Only so far that is reasonable to do so. Because two (or more) ideas exist does not mean that they should be considered equal, especially if one makes more sense than the other. The Knights of the Old Republic comics are presently actively unfolding a storyline prequel to the games that may reveal many things that we did not yet know about characters in the games (I can't remember John Jackson Miller's exact quote, but I'll try to find it); thus it is difficult to argue that I am certainly wrong until Jack Johnson Miller has wrapped up all loose ends in the last comic of the series. Unless Jack Johnson Miller collaborated with Chris Avellone to create Kreia's character when Obsidian was developing the game, I don't see how his input matters in the slightest. If he wants to bastardize someone else's work and LucasArts wants to sign off on it, then that is what it is. However what it is not is the original artist's work. You seem to be arguing that it should be considered as such. However, the Arren Kae argument, for all its strengths, is entirely static. There have been no further advances to the Arren Kae storyline in these last four years. Indeed because the scope of the character is limited to the game. If someone else is now ripping off that character to sell some comic books, then there's very little I can do about that, but that doesn't mean that Chris Avellone didn't write the game with Kreia and Master Kae being the same person. My argument is that we look to what is happening at this present time, as well as what has happened in the past, and only come to a final conclusion when either theory has been substantiated. Nope. As you pointed out above, the game is static. The story is over for now. The body is cold and the clues have all been gathered. Chris Avellone's story is complete (unless KotOR3 happens *fingers crossed*). Sir, I am simply stating that my theory is a tenable possibility; not a hard fact, though I can and have presented strong evidence for why it has every right to be on this page as the previous theory. I appreciate that this is your position, however I still disagree for the reasons stated above. To turn it around, how can you substantiate that there was ever "Avellone's vision at work here"? You cannot, and you cannot substantiate your theory any more than I can mine. Huh? He wrote the story didn't he? Please note, my friend, that I am not at any point suggesting that the Arren Kae theory is wrong, only that it could be wrong and that there also may be other possibilities.Yes, I concede that it is entirely possible that Chris Avellone did not write The Sith Lords with Kreia as Master Kae. The "circumstantial" evidence does tend to support that he did, however you are correct in that there is no smoking gun (I guess Avellone anticipated an audience that didn't need to have things spoon fed to them). However that does not mean that alternate theories automatically "win" or deserve to have equal consideration. *back to your second post which I started to respond to earlier* My argument is that there is a fairly good likelihood that the same will happen for the character of Kreia, and that only because Kreia was designed with very little backstory have the comic writers created one which they intend to mold round her existing story.That's what the comic book writers are doing. Completely separate matter from what the original author did or did not intend for the character. You are entirely correct: Krynda Draay was never mentioned in game, but neither was Kreia's true identity; which has as of yet only been surmised to be Arren Kae, but not proven. This is exactly why Kreia could very possibly be Krynda Draay without any continuity problems.Except that Krynda Draay was never mentioned in the game, that Kreia was written as a human in the game, etc, etc. To be frank, I don't think Avellone really has a great degree of influence on further developing the story as his contract with LucasArts was terminated when Obsidian released the game (probably the reason why he was not allowed to disclose any more than "good catch" when it came to the Arren/Kreia theory). I suppose it's all down to current writers now: if LucasArts decide they want to make the Kae/Kreia theory official in a future publication, then they will, but I doubt they'll consult Avellone first. The problem that we're having sir, is that you seem more concerned about LucasArts canon than the Knights of the Old Republic story. I very much see where you are coming from, however that does not mean that I agree with it. The artistic integrity of Avellone's story (subject to debate, I know) trumps Luca$' desire to sell more comic books. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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