Which Council Member?

[Darth_Yuthura]

I'm not missing 'certain things'. I know perfectly well what I mean.

 

 

 

Secret to the other Jedi, yes. But not to its chief architect, who was... Atris. And deceit is hardly the tool of just the Sith. The Jedi are deceitful when the need arises, such as they were when Revan was retrained, or when they trained Luke to kill Vader.

 

 

 

I'm not disputing that it resulted in Katarr's destruction. Where did you get that idea from?

 

NO!!!! It was not secret to the jedi! Kavar knew about it. ZKE knew of it. Vrook knew of it. They all expected Atris was there as well. Atris secretly seduced herself to the darkside, which the Council had forbidden. If all she had done was exposed to the jedi... she would have been exiled without a second thought.

 

Atris revealed that the jedi were meeting on Katarr so the threat (Darth Nihilus) would reveal themselves. If she had not leaked that information or had gone to Katarr, herself... then I would credit her for her act. Instead she was a coward and left the jedi to be slaughtered.

 

Atris is not a jedi... her belief in her own superiority was far beyond arrogant.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

I'm not missing 'certain things'. I know perfectly well what I mean.

 

 

 

Secret to the other Jedi, yes. But not to its chief architect, who was... Atris. And deceit is hardly the tool of just the Sith. The Jedi are deceitful when the need arises, such as they were when Revan was retrained, or when they trained Luke to kill Vader.

 

 

 

I'm not disputing that it resulted in Katarr's destruction. Where did you get that idea from?

 

 

I'm sure what DY meant by "true sith" was that Atris was truely a darksider, not a true sith from the unkown regions. They are another species as most hear on the forum know.

 

You say that she did not lie to the council. She was as you say, the architect of the plan, but she didn't show up for the final stage of it did she? She left the other jedi on Katarr to die. In this way she did defy the council, because they (talking to ZKE I beleive) beleived Atris had gone to, and died at Katarr. ZKE was of course in on this Katarr lure plot and a member of the council. Therefore, Atris defied the council by not following through on her task and go to Katarr and face the threat. Obviously her orders were to go to Katarr, or why else would everybody think she died there. Instead she locked herself away on her ice hole on Telos.

 

Yes the jedi use deceit for their own purpose, but in each of the situations you mentioned, the jedi used it for a seemingly good purpose. Leaving your freinds to die on Katarr because you are a manipulating coward does not seem to have a good purpose. As DY said if she had gone to Katarr it would credit her. But telling the sith "heres were the jedi are!" (even if it was part of the plan) and then ducking for cover...almost makes it look like she wanted it to happen. But that is speculation and I won't debate it. Bottom line: Atris is a self-centered, stuck up manipulating, witch, who was a jedi only in name.

 

~HOP

[Darth_Yuthura]

As DY said if she had gone to Katarr it would credit her. But telling the sith "heres were the jedi are!" (even if it was part of the plan) and then ducking for cover...almost makes it look like she wanted it to happen. But that is speculation and I won't debate it. Bottom line: Atris is a self-centered, stuck up manipulating, witch, who was a jedi only in name.

 

~HOP

 

Thank-you!

[Rev7]

Agreed. I personally think that Atris was a coward. Bottom-line. She was definately a self-centered witch that was arrogant. I don't really understand why two people voted for her. I think that it just crazy, to tell you the truth. She has her own Jedi Academy, with no Jedi (she wasn't even trying to rebuild the Order), and with a handfull of Echani bodyguards fullfulling her every whim. To me, that is not very Jedi like...all that Atris did was meditate in her locked chambers with a hundred Sith holocrons. I'm really not surprised that she turned to the darkside, personally. I don't think that Atris deserves the title of Jedi, "Guardians of the Peace".

[Astor]

NO!!!! It was not secret to the jedi! Kavar knew about it. ZKE knew of it. Vrook knew of it.

 

I think you've misunderstood what I said. I never said it was a complete secret. But only those jedi who went there, and likely the rest of the council would have been the only ones who knew of it.

 

But anyway, I think we're going around in circles now. Shall we just agree to disagree?

[Totenkopf]

Lying and defiance are two separate things.

 

Actually, lying is usually but one form of defiance. Also often a sign of contempt. But then so can telling the truth be as well.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Alright... I am not going to change my opinion about Atris. I have my reasons and those that love her have theirs. It's not like this whole thing is going to accomplish anything.

[Totenkopf]

Well.....I could understand if EW and Inyri picked Kreia. But Atris as a favorite is a bit baffling. Maybe they were sympathy votes....

[Rev7]

...But none for Zhar? He deserves them a lot more than Atris, IMO.

 

Yeah, I really do wonder why they picked her...

[Totenkopf]

Perhaps one of them could explain. EW does seem to have a thing for Kreia (prominent sig), though.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Well.....I could understand if EW and Inyri picked Kreia. But Atris as a favorite is a bit baffling. Maybe they were sympathy votes....

 

Haha, yeah Kreia I could understand. She manipulates but she has principles and sticks by them, and seems to have valid opinions about issues. She asserts her advice, but does not act self righteous or snotty. I actually admire Kreia's many talents. Maybe they were sympathy votes. Even Vrook I could understand, as much as I dislike him myself, but if you are a dark Revan or Exile, his comments make much more sense. In fact Atris is the only one on the list that I can't find one good thing to say about, other than the fact that she saved jedi holocrons. But that hardly counts seeing as all she did was hoard them in her acadamy.

 

@Rev: I know, I would have thought Zhar would a get at least two or three just for being a twi'lek.

 

If Inyri or EW would like to explain their decision...I promise not to bite your head off no matter how much I disagree.

[Feagildin]

My favorite was Vash, I was very disappointed that she died before you could meet with her. (I have obviously not seen the cut content.) I decided this based on what she says in the trial scene.

[Darth_Yuthura]

You know... it's a good thing that Revan took over during the Mando Wars because they suck at it! Once they were given power, most became corrupted and were no longer jedi.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Quite true, though to varying degrees. At least Zez realised his mistake whaen the exile talks to him later and Kavar probably would with a little coaxing. After seeing the cut content, I see that Vash was along the lines of Zez, as far as realizing her mistakes, though, at the exile trial she seemed sympathetic, but too afrasaid to come out and say it. IMHO. Atris and Vrook...well they are another story, though Atris is by far worse. Power corrpts is the moral here I think.

 

And yes, Its a good thing Revan stepped in, imagine Atris or Vrook trying to inspire loyalty.

 

-HOP

[Darth_Yuthura]

Another lesson from the Council was that they were so fixed on the jedi code that they refused to believe everything else was wrong. I couldn't stand Vrook saying "no doubt you still blame us for your exile." YEEES... it's not not like anyone else could override the the Council. How could Vrook and Atris have been so convinced that they were always right? In some ways, they were worse than the sith... at least the sith declared that they were the strongest and dominated over their empire. The Council didn't represent the jedi, only themselves.

[TKA-001]

She has her own Jedi Academy, with no Jedi (she wasn't even trying to rebuild the Order), and with a handfull of Echani bodyguards fullfulling her every whim.

The reason Atris didn't train any Jedi is thrown in the player's face during the game: bringing more Jedi there would attract the attention of Darth Nihilus, automatically meaning that she would be killed. The reason she surrounded herself with the non-force wielding bodyguards was to make herself more difficult for Nihilus to sense.

 

Quite true, though to varying degrees. At least Zez realised his mistake whaen the exile talks to him later and Kavar probably would with a little coaxing. After seeing the cut content, I see that Vash was along the lines of Zez, as far as realizing her mistakes, though, at the exile trial she seemed sympathetic, but too afrasaid to come out and say it. IMHO. Atris and Vrook...well they are another story, though Atris is by far worse. Power corrpts is the moral here I think.

Could someone explain what these "hideous mistakes" the Council made are? Apparently I'm missing a battleship here.

 

were so fixed on the jedi code that they refused to believe everything else was wrong.

I've heard this same ridiculous statement repeated over and over so many times it's not even funny. The Jedi Code is just a set of basic, general guidelines that all Jedi were supposed to follow. What does "fixing on it" mean, and what does it have to do with anything?

 

I couldn't stand Vrook saying "no doubt you still blame us for your exile." YEEES... it's not not like anyone else could override the the Council.

Vrook asked that because he thought the Exile might have actually learned something in ten years.

 

How could Vrook and Atris have been so convinced that they were always right?

Maybe because they actually were right? Vrook, anyway. Atris was a Dark Jedi.

 

In some ways, they were worse than the sith... at least the sith declared that they were the strongest and dominated over their empire. The Council didn't represent the jedi, only themselves.

This part in particular puts the most emphasis on the fact that your case is based solely on Player Character Bias: the idea that "in some ways" (whatever that means), it's better to murder quadrillions of people than do the best you can with the information you have.

[JCarter426]

Maybe because they actually were right? Vrook, anyway. Atris was a Dark Jedi.

Just because they may have been right to exile the Exile the first time doesn't mean they were right the second time around. Who's the one that hasn't learned anything after all those years this time?

[Melly]

The reason she surrounded herself with the non-force wielding bodyguards was to make herself more difficult for Nihilus to sense.

 

I, and Kreia, beg to differ:

 

"You have gathered Sith holocrons, Sith teachings from across the galaxy. It is why you have chosen servants who cannot feel the Force. And most importantly, they cannot feel what you have become."

[jonathan7]

Could someone explain what these "hideous mistakes" the Council made are? Apparently I'm missing a battleship here.

 

Your kidding right?

 

Vrook the council et al; firstly let millions of innocent people die during the Mandalorian Wars - they repeated the mistake the Republic had made prior to this - which was watching and waiting. Eventually the Mandalorians attacked the Republic. The Council split the order, not Revan and Malak - it was the Council who spawned the Jedi Civil War - with the decision not to go to war. They then Exiled the only Jedi not to have fallen to the Dark Side on Revan's forces - what? That is not the action of a forgiving/understanding Council.

 

They then ran for cover, and when the Exile returned - they then wanted to watch and wait some more so attempted to Exile their only chance to stop Nihilis and Sion - wow what strategic brilliance. The question isn't what mistakes did they make, more when did they ever do anything right?

 

Also, you may wish to note in TSL Vrook's alignment is 60 - that about says it all.

 

Vrook asked that because he thought the Exile might have actually learned something in ten years.

 

What was the Exile meant to learn, most of what had transpired was Vrook's fault.

[TKA-001]

Just because they may have been right to exile the Exile the first time doesn't mean they were right the second time around. Who's the one that hasn't learned anything after all those years this time?

Actually, they were right both times. Getting rid of the Exile the second time around was the most logical thing to do, considering what they knew. Sure, the Exile was the only force wielder who could attack Nihilus without being killed instantly, but how were they supposed to know that? Even the Exile her/himself didn't know that until the confrontation onboard the Ravager.

 

"You have gathered Sith holocrons, Sith teachings from across the galaxy. It is why you have chosen servants who cannot feel the Force. And most importantly, they cannot feel what you have become."

Why should Atris care if they figured out "what she became"? Besides, all that proves is that there was more than one reason for the Handmaidens being around.

 

That aside, the dialogue which you quote is cut, and therefore has no weight on what happened, rather than what might have happened.

 

Vrook the council et al; firstly let millions of innocent people die during the Mandalorian Wars

So if they jumped in immediately, the Mandalorians would have been defeated just as easily? The nuclear warheads on Duro (for example) would have simply not been used? The battle at Malachor, where Revan massacred most of his/her own entire fleet would never have happened?

 

Why do people seem to think that the Jedi would've made an enormous difference? The only reason the Republic was losing the Mandalorian War was their sickeningly incompetent leadership. Their fleets and armies vastly outnumbered the Mandalorians. The only thing that Revan did to turn the tide was serve as an effective military commander. The fact that he/she and her/his colleagues were Jedi had little to do with it.

 

The Council split the order, not Revan and Malak - it was the Council who spawned the Jedi Civil War - with the decision not to go to war.

Player Character Bias. Nobody on the Council told Revan and her/his band of hooligans to leave for the Mandalorian Wars. They decided to do that on their own. Their only failing in that regard was apparently being unable to teach their Jedi to to actually obey their leaders.

 

The Council sure as hell did not tell Revan to turn to the dark side and start another war. The Council's mistake there was letting Revan and his/her followers get away with their rebellion. Shouldn't they have sent other Jedi to detain Revan and his/her renegades? Of course, for whatever reason, they didn't do that and what happened afterward is history.

 

They then Exiled the only Jedi not to have fallen to the Dark Side on Revan's forces - what? That is not the action of a forgiving/understanding Council.

They exiled the Exile because he/she was a threat, and certainly a bigger threat than any common Dark Jedi. Also, for the record, they never claimed to be forgiving. It's not their job to forgive the enemy.

 

They then ran for cover, and when the Exile returned

Remember the Conclave on Katarr? When the Jedi showed themselves, Darth Nihilus killed all of them, not to mention everything else on the entire fricking planet. Of course they ran for cover. Anything else would be suicide.

 

they then wanted to watch and wait some more so attempted to Exile their only chance to stop Nihilis and Sion - wow what strategic brilliance.

It worked, didn't it? The Exile killed off the Sith Triumvirate's leadership. Of course, that happened after they were dead, so I suppose that was at best a pyrrhic victory for them. Also, the fact that they died immediately after reuniting on Dantooine shows the futility of doing anything other than waiting for an opportune moment to act.

 

Also, you may wish to note in TSL Vrook's alignment is 60 - that about says it all.

This tidbit of information is what in the military would be called "completely irrelevant".

 

The question isn't what mistakes did they make, more when did they ever do anything right?

most of what had transpired was Vrook's fault.

Geeze, you're not even pretending to not be biased toward the Exile/Revan. Saying that the Council was wrong is one thing, but saying that the death toll of the Mandalorian Wars as well as the entire Jedi Civil War was their fault even though Revan is the one who started it is insane.

[JCarter426]

Even the Exile her/himself didn't know that until the confrontation onboard the Ravager.

You don't know that. You're assuming that, but you don't know that.

Sure, the Exile was the only force wielder who could attack Nihilus without being killed instantly, but how were they supposed to know that?

Because they know that Nihilus feeds on the Force, and the Exile lacks the Force. It doesn't take a large leap to go from A to B.

Actually, they were right both times. Getting rid of the Exile the second time around was the most logical thing to do, considering what they knew.

What did they know? They knew the Exile had saved Dantooine, Onderon, and Telos. They knew the Exile had united sworn enemies in order to fight a mutual opponent. They knew the Exile had the power to rally armies to their cause, because they had done just that in the Mandalorian Wars, and had emerged victorious. And they knew they had no chance of winning on their own.

[TKA-001]

You don't know that. You're assuming that, but you don't know that.

On the other side, you're assuming that the Exile did know that, even though it is never suggested or implied.

 

Because they know that Nihilus feeds on the Force, and the Exile lacks the Force. It doesn't take a large leap to go from A to B.

Vrook and the others only knew about the Exile. They didn't know anything about Nihilus or the nature of his power except that a concentration of force-wielders in one place draws him to their location. They didn't know he was a wound like the Exile.

[jonathan7]

<snip>

 

Basically your wrong, however I don't think you will be persuaded because I'm apparently biased *sniff sniff* is that irony I smell? Anyway, I can't really be bothered to expand the energy required to reply so instead I'm going to do this;

 

Read this and then come back, pretty much most of us who discuss TSL have read it - though from your answers I can only deduce you haven't, will do you good; http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/index.html

 

If you've not realised then that you are in fact incorrect, there is no hope for you

[Gurges-Ahter]

I voted for Kavar. Most of them seemed like douches, but at least Kavar was a badass douche.

[TKA-001]

Read this and then come back, pretty much most of us who discuss TSL have read it - though from your answers I can only deduce you haven't

For your information, I read that thing several months ago, and I've analyzed numerous parts of it since then. I'm not sure how any of it is supposed to support your argument. It's not evidence of anything; just another person's interpretation, analysis, and opinion.

 

Basically your wrong, however I don't think you will be persuaded because I'm apparently biased *sniff sniff* is that irony I smell?

If you've not realised then that you are in fact incorrect, there is no hope for you:xp:

Translation: I'm a smug, egotistical jackass who for whatever reason can't actually defend my own argument. Therefore, instead of being convenient for all parties involved and staying out of the debate which I don't even want to participate in, I'll link to some other person's opinion and try to pass it off as indisputable proof of my opponent being "incorrect" even though we're trying to document our opinions, not prove each other "wrong". Addendum: For good measure, I'll mock my opponent with infuriating self-righteousness by implying that he is an ignorant simpleton for not reading the "evidence" which I linked to (even though it's entirely possible that he already has), and furthermore, if it does not change his opinion, then "there is no hope for him." Conclusion: I no longer wish to participate in this argument, but I refuse to let him "win."