Which Council Member?

[Astor]

Who exactly were the leaders of the Jedi Order? Revan? The Exile? Malak? It was the Council who had the power to act and it was under their leadership that the Galaxy went to hell.

 

The Jedi aren't responsible for the galaxy, and it's silly to suggest such.

[TKA-001]

and it was under their leadership that the Galaxy went to hell. That cannot be denied.

It also can't be denied that Cloud City at Bespin was subjugated by the First Galactic Empire when Lando Calrissian was the administrator of said city, so it's his fault that the Empire took it over.

 

"The Council left millions to die, yadda yadda yadda". You probably didn't know this, but the Republic (you know, the galactic government which had a huge fleet and army to protect itself with?) sat on its hands for ten years while the Mandalorians blitzkrieged across the Outer Rim, but I don't see you jumping all over them for indecisiveness failure of leadership and all that other melodrama.

 

Am I glorifying Revan and the Exile all the time?

Yes, you are. Shamelessly and inexcusably. You wouldn't be doing so at all if they weren't the player characters.

 

Probably, but according to the official version of the KOTOR universe, it is Revan and the Exile who were the heros and

Sorry, but the "official version" of the "KOTOR Universe" doesn't play favorites. It doesn't say who the "heroes" are. The only substantial source we have for how stupid the Council supposedly was and how great Revan and the Exile supposedly were is Kreia. Considering her twisted sense of ethics, morality, and the fact that she was a Sith Lord herself, her attempts to justify everything that her star pupil did and her extremely bigoted opinions in regards to the Jedi should not come as a surprise in any respect. Kreia is the most biased source of information in the entire game (not to mention at least as evil as any other Sith Lord in the series), but it's strange that everything she says is taken as fact, rather than as her opinion.

 

the Council... maybe weren't evil, but indifferent to anything other than what they believed was wrong.

"Maybe the Council wasn't totally evil, but it goes without saying that the person who started a galactic war and caused quadrillions of deaths even before beginning it definitely has moral superiority over them."

 

It can't be denied that they condemned the Exile to shift blame away from themselves, and when they had a chance to do the right thing, they were arrogant and condemned her yet again. (they had reason the second time, but were too quick to come to an easy solution.)

Shift blame away from themselves. Blame for what? More importantly, who was blaming them? Their reason for exiling the Exile the first time didn't have jack to do with the Mandalorian Wars. It was because she could have caused another split in the Jedi Order. And I'd like to hear what they should have done instead the second time.

 

Atris was like Vrook, only incompetent. Has there EVER been a time when Vrook admitted that he or the Council were wrong?

No, because he didn't believe he was wrong. Has there ever been a time when Revan admitted he/she was wrong? No, because he didn't believe he was wrong. How despicable of Revan, to believe that he was right.

 

(He did once say 'we, the Jedi' but this put him as one among many... compared to him ruling above thousands with supreme authority)

This statement reminds me of a fanfic I once read where the author tried to convince the reader that Vrook was the sole, undisputed emperor of the Jedi Order who ruled through fear, ignoring the fact that not only was he not the only one on the Council, but also not even the leader of said Council.

 

I would think that one like Vrook would have been the first to admit his failure, but instead, he died thinking it was everyone else because they didn't do what he wanted. If they had, maybe the Jedi Civil war wouldn't have happened, but maybe if he yielded to the rest of the Order, Revan never would have established a banner under which to gather followers.

More fact-bending about how virtually everyone in the Jedi Order except the Council wanted to follow Revan. Stop making things up to use as "evidence".

 

Who should the Jedi have supported? Vrook LOVED blaming Revan and his followers for everything

I've played KOTOR I several times, and I don't recall any conversations where Vrook chews Revan out for anything, let alone "everything." All he does is chip into the conversations with the rest of the Dantooine Council in his usual taciturn manner. I ask you again: Are you looking at the actual game, or your own fan fiction?

 

Under the Council's leadership, the entire Order went all to hell.

If a nation comes under attack from another nation, is it the leader of the first nation's fault that they were attacked, or the fault of the ones who actually attacked?

 

They WERE the ones commanding the Order with a totalitarian authority

Saying that the Jedi Council possessed "totalitarian authority" is misleading because it implies that the Jedi Order is a government, which it is not. It does not rule planets, its members are not "citizens", and the Order does not engage in diplomacy for itself with other governments.

 

and under their leadership, the Order was destroyed.

...destroyed by Revan.

 

Why would anyone support people who disregarded everyone else's opinions?

But that's what Revan and Malak did as well. Why should anyone support them?

 

Well they can't deny that they failed to lead the Order when they faced the Mandalorians and Revan.

Why not? They aren't responsible for the Republic's sickening incompetence or for Revan's "brilliant" ideas for making everything better.

 

The Mandalorians were a severe threat and

Again, the Mandalorians only became a threat because the Republic decided that it needed to wait for ten years before trying to stop them, but I don't hear you screaming bloody arrogant evil murder incompetent at the Republic for that. Of course, it goes without saying that the reason you don't is because they weren't opposed to Revan, and anyone who was opposed to Revan was a hypocritical, arrogant perfectionist.

 

Revan established his base of power solely because of the choices the Council made.

Wrong. Revan established his base of power by using the Republic's reliance on the Jedi to become a high-ranking military leader (how else would he get into such a position?), the Jedi Knights and apprentices that followed him, the strategies he used during the war to corrupt his followers, and the Star Forge later on. Revan's choices had jack squat to do with Vrook and the others. They didn't control Revan's actions. He had a brain and was capable of thinking for himself.

 

Either Revan were a god, or the Council had to have been utterly incompetent... and shouldn't have been leading in the first place.

But you believe both.

 

As for Atris... there is NO justification for what she did with Katarr. She betrayed the Jedi and the massacre wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for her.

Oh, I didn't know that Atris was a wound in the Force who was capable of draining the life from billions of lifeforms at once who was drawn to Katarr by all the Force-sensitives there. I thought it was Darth Nihilus who did that. My mistake.

 

It's Atris' fault that Katarr was depopulated? Then I guess Leia Organa on the first Death Star was as much to blame for Alderaan as Tarkin was, because he wouldn't have threatened the planet if it wasn't her home planet.

 

Her motives are quite apparent considering that she went to... wait DIDN'T go to Katarr to face the threat when she sold the Order out. That means that Atris couldn't possibly justify her traitorous actions because she didn't want to face the threat, but was more than willing to make others do it for her.

Atris' reasons for not being there at the time are unexplained and irrelevant. She did not intend for the massacre to happen, nor even had reason to expect it to happen, and that's all that matters.

 

No justification? How is it that Atris is irredeemably evil for indirectly and unintentionally being involved in a planet's depopulation, but Revan isn't irredeemably evil for deliberately engineering the destruction of Malachor just to make others loyal to him?

 

Atris was evil

I'm sure that that's true in your fan fiction, but Atris as seen in the actual game did not fall until probably shortly before the events of TSL. She sure as hell wasn't evil as far back as the Exile's trial, at any rate.

 

Vrook simply believed himself perfect and acted as though he were... unwilling to compromise. THAT is why he failed miserably as a leader.

Where was Vrook given an opportunity to "compromise" on anything? Where do you get these impressions of perfectionism? Where is the evidence that he believes himself perfect? In the game, I don't see any situations that are applicable for a compromise, or Vrook saying anything which even so much as implies that he thinks highly of himself, so mind if I just call bull**** on this one?

[Darth_Yuthura]

Okay, maybe D_Y wanted to win too much. But don't you see? You're doing the same damn thing. Win at all costs.

 

And you know what? Everyone's going to lose.

[Endorenna]

 

I'm sorry, I just have to laugh at this thread. Seriously, there are these huge walls of text arguing whether or not Atris was evil and whether Vrook should he honored or hated!

 

Okay. I'll make my own wall, I s'pose.

 

Atris:

 

Atris just annoyed the stew outta me. That's why I don't like her. I don't think she was particularly evil, but I don't happen to like people who yell. If she hadn't started screaming, "YOU'RE A FILTHY MURDERER AND A DARK SIDER!!!!!" the instant the Exile walked into the room, I would have liked her better. Also, I don't happen to like people who can't even see that they're of the Dark Side, while accusing other of being Dark Siders. She was an arrogant jerk, IMO. Not necessarily evil or cruel, just...a jerk.

 

 

Vrook:

 

Okay, to start off, Vrook was not evil. He was a lot angrier than the rest of the Jedi Council, but I have to cut him some slack. Seriously, what has this guy gone through? He's watched his whole Order get destroyed. One of his greatest students became a Sith Lord. He had to stay in hiding for years, just so he wouldn't get hunted down and shot. He's had a hard time. I still completely dislike him, 'cuz I don't like crotchity old men, and I think he pontificated too much, but seriously? What Jedi Master doesn't pontificate too much? I still don't like him.

 

 

Revan:

 

Revan was evil. I'm sorry, he was. I don't care what his motives were for turning to the Dark Side. He did evil things. Frankly, I think he had less reason to turn to the Dark Side than, say--Darth Bane or Darth Zannah. I happen to think he was an awesome Sith Lord, and I like him better than the Republic AND the Jedi Council. Still, he was evil. The war he unleashed on the Galaxy and all the Jedi he killed is proof enough of that, I think. In the end, he, as we all know, was forcibly turned to the Light Side--no, actually, he wasn't. Revan died on that battleship when Malak fired on him. The person that came out of that whole incident was not Revan.

 

 

The Exile:

 

I blame Revan more than the Exile for the whole Malachor V thing. The Exile gave the order, true, but Revan gave her the order. I don't think she should have been kicked out of the Order--being cut off from the Force was sufficient punishment. She redeemed herself in the end, I believe. In other words, she wasn't evil.

 

 

The Jedi Code;

 

I'm not even going into it. All I know is that the Sith Code makes more sense. It would be possible to follow the Jedi Code, if you were trained to. After all, it's not like it's impossible to control your own feelings about/for other people. and hormones don't have to rule you. I don't exactly blame most of the Jedi who went against it and fell to the Dark Side, 'cuz, well, I have a rather nasty temper, but the Sith Code makes more sense.

 

BTW, the killer line of the Jedi Code is the 'There is no death; there is the Force".

 

 

 

 

 

PS: Yes, I'm biased about Revan and the Exile.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I just wonder how many who voted for Vrook have been in the military. This is not to be argumentative; just a quarry.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

*attempts to read thread:*

 

 

*read, read, read, read, read, rea-ohlookmisshowardtv..*

[Bee Hoon]

I've read your fan fiction. Are you sure you're looking at the game, instead of that?

That was uncalled for.

[Astor]

I just wonder how many who voted for Vrook have been in the military. This is not to be argumentative; just a quarry.

 

Honest, simple question - what has being in the military got to do with voing for Vrook?

[Darth_Yuthura]

Honest, simple question - what has being in the military got to do with voing for Vrook?

 

Probably because he was like a military drill officer. As Machievelli once quoted, "Always angry, never satisfied. The kind of person who you come to thank later because he did not permit you any slack."

 

I could imagine a person who went through military training to appreciate this kind of character, as many others don't realize the importance of being pushed to the brink and making mistakes in training instead of in the field. If this is the reason people back Vrook, then I can appreciate that and will not argue their opinion.

 

One other thing...

 

TKI-001 made a statement that I used logic from my biassed fictions for this thread; I didn't. Yes, my fics are biassed, but I don't appreciate the comments that were made. I haven't made an issue of it, but I don't want them to be used against me or others unless I'm the one who uses them here in the first place... which I haven't. I also don't glorify Revan or the Exile in my fictions, but rather they are based on a character's point of view. I may trash the Council, but that doesn't mean I think my favorite characters are always right. Even if I did, it doesn't matter because I didn't bring elements from my fictions into this.

[mur'phon]

*makes a mental note not to vote in this poll until after my draft year*

[Astor]

Probably because he was like a military drill officer. As Machievelli once quoted, "Always angry, never satisfied. The kind of person who you come to thank later because he did not permit you any slack."

 

I could imagine a person who went through military training to appreciate this kind of character, as many others don't realize the importance of being pushed to the brink and making mistakes in training instead of in the field. If this is the reason people back Vrook, then I can appreciate that and will not argue their opinion.

 

I'm not in the military, but i've always liked Vrook, from the moment I saw him in the first game - he's not going to mince words, and he doesn't pull his punches - and he's right to be hard on his students considering the things he's been through - countless wars, and two wars that split the Order.

[Wedge Suron]

Vandar is my faviourite.

[ShinDangaioh]

[delurk]

Vrook? He should not have been on the High Council. Military allegory continued. He is a drill sergeant . Drill sergeants do poorly when made brass.

 

I'll ignore the comics since I don't have them and I heard a rumor that they made Kreia a half-Miraluka

 

Vandar made several attempts to spill the beans about Revan and he did command the Jedi Forces during the battle of the Star Forge. I also have to cut him some slack, since he probably was there during the Freedon Nadd uprisings which led to Exar Kun. He's probably a little weary of all the wars that kiilled so many of his students and friends. I also felt his death was done horribly and a waste of a good character.

 

Cut content and what is missing from cut cotent. Lonna Vash(M4-78) was the one who taught the Exile how to end the Force Bond between the Exile and Kreia. It is also obvious she was to die fighting Sion on M4-78 saving the Exile, since Kreia mentions nothing to Vash in restored talks on Dantooine. Vash could have turned the council around and prevent that entire attempt to strip the Exile of the Force.(my vote went to her)

 

Atris: All the Jedi Order asked for was time to analyze the Mandalorian threat.

Napolean Bonepart: Ask me for anything but time.

That pretty much says it all right there.

 

As to Zez Kai-Ell, I got the feeling that he wanted to die upon the Exile's lightsaber. I think he should have jumped into one of those pits on Nar Shadda, instead of trying to convince the Exile to kill him. (I never do, since I play LS) He was way too suicidal and thus that conclave on Dantooine was what he wanted all along. He wanted to die. I feel pity for him.

 

Dorak? Well can't really blame him too much. Atris was the Historian of the High Council and Dorak was probably her underling in chronicling the Jedi histoy. He was the historian for Dantooine.

 

Zhar? There is not much to say about him one way or the other.

 

Kavar? I feel nutreal about him. He's the one who should have led the charge against the Mandalorians. Canderous himself said that they were expecting to fight against Kavar, not Revan.

 

1. Lonna Vash

2. Vandar Tokare

3. Zez Kai-Ell

4. Kavar

5. Zhar Lenstil

6. Dorak

7. Vrook Lamar(He should not have been on the High Council. That's not his strength)

8. Atris

 

Do I go back to lurking or not?

 

Edit: I almost forgot Vandar follows a different Jedi Code than the others.

Emotion; yet peace

Ignorance; yet knowledge

Passion; yet serenity

Chaos; yet harmony

Death; yet the Force

 

This code doesn't have the unrealistic standards that the Jedi Code and Sith Code you are forced to memorize in KOTOR hve. This is the code that Thon, Nomi Sunrider, and several others followed

[Darth_Yuthura]

Do I go back to lurking or not?

 

Welcome to the forums. Feel free to post whatever you wish and it will be welcomed... so long as it isn't directed at another member.

 

It's nice to get a nice description of what we each think of the Council members. I really would have voted for Vash had she been in the game originally. I would have selected her, Kavar, and ZKE... simply for being decent Jedi.

 

Vrook may have been wise, but was always overconfident... Atris was like an incompetent version of him... the only reason I detest her more than him.

[moda]

to once more revive this thread, i have to say of the masters in tsl atris is perhaps the best character, in her you see the tragedy of emotion, in many ways she is similar to the character of othello, in that her passions become her undoing, and as she finnally comes undone she seeks to destroy everything around her.

 

in her dialouge with brianna on the return to telos, you see much the same scenerio as you see at the end othello, with her first seeking to end her rival, then to destroy her love.

 

atris in many ways is the sterotype which the jedi band about when preaching of the dangers of attachment. her tragedy is such that it makes her fall all the more sorrowful, she fell because she couldnt bear what she had done to the one she loved, she couldnt endure with out her love.

 

off course this whole aspect only really has its full impact if you play as a male exile otherwise she seems like a bitter old hag.

 

but who knows maybe im just a sad and sorry romantic

[ShinDangaioh]

I saw some of the cut content for Atris and whew, she has really lost it. She set Brianna's sisters(the Handmaidens) upon her to kill her.

 

"If she kills her sisters, she has fallen to the Dark Side. If she does not, then she will die. Such is sacrifice."

 

Back to Vrook. Vrook blamed Revan and the others for the destruction of Duros, Eres III, and Serrocco. Three planets that the Mandolrians devestated before Revan and the others entered the war.

 

I saw a rumor that the Jedi High Council did their best to keep the news of the destruction of Cathar a secret in the comics. Revan exposed that secret and that is what split the Order.

[moda]

I saw some of the cut content for Atris and whew, she has really lost it. She set Brianna's sisters(the Handmaidens) upon her to kill her.

 

"If she kills her sisters, she has fallen to the Dark Side. If she does not, then she will die. Such is sacrifice."

 

hence my entire othello reference, love is the most fragile of emotions, when it becomes twisted it turns into an ravenous beast unfeeling and uncaring. that is the true tragedy of Atris, she was destroyed because she loved nothing more nothing less

[Gob]

hence my entire othello reference, love is the most fragile of emotions, when it becomes twisted it turns into an ravenous beast unfeeling and uncaring. that is the true tragedy of Atris, she was destroyed because she loved nothing more nothing less

 

No. It's because she had passion. As Jolee said, it's passion that leads to the Dark Side, not love. Love is what saves you from the Dark Side. It's the reason Darth Vader turned back to the light, and it's the key to becoming a Force ghost. In the NJO, they taught to love, but control your passion. Yoda also understood that forbidding love was what led to the downfall of the Jedi.

[moda]

love is entwined within passion, else love wouldnt be so special, to forbid passion is to forbid love. without passion love is nothing. and in many ways i would say atris was turned because of passion, she was turned because she became bitter over time, her bitterness stemmed from her love which was denied and supressed. this bitterness turned to anger, anger at the galaxy, anger at the exile, anger at the jedi and most importantly anger at herself. that is why she fell, not because of passion, but because of passion denied

[purifier]

Holy Wookiees, this freak'in thing is still going on after all this time. Talk about your long running threads.

 

Anyway, Atris has my vote despite her attitude towards the exile. That's just a case of her having too much passion in her beliefs about the Mandalorin Wars. She likes to argue - like everyone else.

 

 

I got a question though to everybody, do any of the Masters remind you of anybody that you've dealt with in your own life? Just a thought.

 

Me, I would have to say Vrook hands down. I've come across two individuals like that so far in my lifetime.

[Gob]

love is entwined within passion, else love wouldnt be so special, to forbid passion is to forbid love. without passion love is nothing. and in many ways i would say atris was turned because of passion, she was turned because she became bitter over time, her bitterness stemmed from her love which was denied and supressed. this bitterness turned to anger, anger at the galaxy, anger at the exile, anger at the jedi and most importantly anger at herself. that is why she fell, not because of passion, but because of passion denied

 

Love =/= Passion. Buddhism says to love without forming attachments, which is entirely possible. Jedi are based on Buddhists. Again, love is what saves people from the Dark Side. Passion is what brings them to it.

 

I got a question though to everybody, do any of the Masters remind you of anybody that you've dealt with in your own life? Just a thought.

 

Me, I would have to say Vrook hands down. I've come across two individuals like that so far in my lifetime.

 

Haha, yeah. Vrook = my dad, except my dad has a sense of humour. Also, Zez = my friend, because they both look like hippies.

[purifier]

Haha, yeah. Vrook = my dad, except my dad has a sense of humour. Also, Zez = my friend, because they both look like hippies.

 

 

 

You say one of them was a parent, your father, yep....same here. Only in my case it's my mother. I swear to god she is just like the character Vrook, she's always naggin the hell out of me over every thing, I mean for godsake leave me alone woman.

 

She constantly says to me: Your always making excuses for yourself (my name)!

 

And I say: Yea, but this broken leg really f***ing hurts damnit! Tough love man. Tough love.

 

Know what I mean?

[Gob]

You say one of them was a parent, your father, yep....same here. Only in my case it's my mother. I swear to god she is just like the character Vrook, she's always naggin the hell out of me over every thing, I mean for godsake leave me alone woman.

 

She constantly says to me: Your always making excuses for yourself (my name)!

 

And I say: Yea, but this broken leg really f***ing hurts damnit! Tough love man. Tough love.

 

Know what I mean?

 

Come to think of it, my sister's like that, too. She gets angry over the most trivial things, and then when you tell her off, she starts on about something else... Actually, a lot of people do that. But I guess we're getting off topic.

 

So, who likes Zez's mustache?

[Master Shake]

So, who likes Zez's mustache?

It's the reason I play the game.

[purifier]

So, who likes Zez's mustache?

 

 

Originally Posted by Master Shake

It's the reason I play the game.

 

 

Yeeaaa, that damn thing has got some character to it don't it? Hmmm, you know what....I'd say his whole look has got character to his character. (Wait a minute...did I say that right?)

 

Anyway I'm thinking maybe retro 60's or 70's with his stache, hippie style. He would have been my first choice on this poll, if it were not for Atris.

 

 

Score 1 for the hippies man, oh yeaaaaaa! (hi five)