Talak Sana Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 So, do I understand the current situation correctly: Russian troops advance while Georgia has called ceasefire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverNight Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 All I can see when I imagine that is a bunch of advisors trying to convince Bush it's not the state of Georgia and telling him not to launch the Nuke's[/Quote] I have more faith in the President than you. I think that he would be kept abreast of this development and knew that when they told him that Russia was bombing Georgia it would've been obvious to him that it was the Country Georgia. But, that's just me... @Ascendant_Justice: you're point being? Now they are going to approach Medvedev and try to get him to sign - he has claimed that Moscow's military push is complete, so hopefully he will sign and stop this before everyone else gets involved.[/Quote] Eh, who knows. I doubt that Medvedev (Try saying that one 5 times fast) is the one calling the shots, Putin's playing puppet master right now... and if he wants to bomb Georgia to hell, than that's his prerogative... Hopefully it won't come to that, but I don't have much faith in Russia right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mur'phon Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 There will be peace in our time, but on their terms:xp: Seriously though, Russia seem to be the clear winner so far. No western power (as far as I know) have promised their military support. Russia have made it painfully obvious that messing with them is a bad idea, and will be able to decide what the peace will cost Georgia. The score was 2-0 at half time, unfourtantely, winner takes all:( FN: no need to say Medvedev, try Dima, easier on the tounge, but still fun to say repeatedly:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverNight Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 FN: no need to say Medvedev, try Dima, easier on the tounge, but still fun to say repeatedly[/Quote] You know... that actually makes a whole lotta sense... something I seem to be running short on lately. Though, Dima just isn't as fun to say five times fast... Or, rather, watching and listening to other people say five times fast. Ontopic: I don't know much about the Georgian President, so I'm unable to comment on his mental state... but, Russia's in a position of superior power. I know that if I were playing Civilization 3 and had a similar situation, I would just throw the Cease-fire in their face and conquer them right away. Thankfully, however, this isn't Civ3... nor am I the Russian President. (That would be kinda odd... seeing as I'm an American to begin with and have no aspirations to go to Russia in the future.) However, from what I know of Putin... if he's able to keep up the facade of "What cease fire?" and take the parts he wants... he will. Should be interesting to watch... from the sidelines... very, very, very far away... and it didn't do anything to embroil the world in WWIII... However, seeing as the reactions I've seen lately point to just that happening.... ... Well, let's pray that Russia sees those papers now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk102 Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Pres. Saakashvili of Georgia wrote a letter to the Wall Street Journal published today concerning his view of the current situation, of what led up to it, and what ramifications he sees. It also explains why Russia has expanded their campaign into the northwest territory of Abkhazia. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121841306186328421.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Georgia 2 - Russia 4 - Ukraine 1? Russian troops and armour have now advanced well beyond S. Ossetia, penetrating as far into the Georgian interior as Gori, as well as forcing Georgian forces from Senaki and dismantling a military base. Russian troops have now also entered Abkhazia, and the Russian Black Sea fleet has engaged Georgian naval forces, sinking one missile cruiser. And now, apparently the Ukrainian Navy is refusing to allow the return of Russian ships to their fleet bases. I hope that Ukraine doesn't get involved, as that would likely make the situation worse. I have to say i'm surprised that the Russians are still fighting. Given the apparent strength of the Red Army (it's still is, pretty much), and that Georgia is clearly punching out of her weight class, Russia should have already won. But I don't know why some people are focusing on Medvedev, it's clear Putin still holds all the cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk102 Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Ukraine knows they're next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 I have to say i'm surprised that the Russians are still fighting. Given the apparent strength of the Red Army (it's still is, pretty much), and that Georgia is clearly punching out of her weight class, Russia should have already won. Russia was running on the excuse that it was protecting its citizens in S. Ossetia, Abkhazia, etc. so couldn't just steamroll over it - I don't think the other world powers would be as neutral as they seem to be if they had. Although, God help Georgia if they break any ceasefire, same for Ukraine. But I don't know why some people are focusing on Medvedev, it's clear Putin still holds all the cards. Putin is probably still pulling the strings - he likely always will. You must admit, it is clever the way he has manoeuvred to keep power but stay within the constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Ukraine knows they're next. Oh of course. Russia won't stop with Georgia - they've publicly claimed that they want a return to the 'old ways' - large Fleets patrolling the seas, Russian Jets scaring NATO Forces - which is already happening. I'm actually surprised Ukraine is being so bold - but they're telling Russia they can't be bullied like they used to. Unfortunately it's a situation that won't end until Russia has a cabinet that isn't made up of KGB officers, or veterans of the Cold War. They want to rebuild the USSR - the fact Russian forces were already on the Georgian border is proof that they were planning or expecting this to happen. The fact that the Russian 'Peacekeepers' were veterans of Chechnya was just a coincidence, if you'll believe Russian reports. The Russians had carefully planned for it to happen on the day of the Olympics, too, I think. When the entire world was watching China, Russia jerked their heads in their direction, and forced us to see what they could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 The Russians had carefully planned for it to happen on the day of the Olympics, too, I think. When the entire world was watching China, Russia jerked their heads in their direction, and forced us to see what they could do. Georgia made the first move on South Ossetia, by the way. But yeah, the presence of Russian 'peacekeepers' is quite suspect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Putin is probably still pulling the strings - he likely always will. You must admit, it is clever the way he has manoeuvred to keep power but stay within the constitution. [/Quote] Oh yes, very clever, but he seems to be the only person who thinks that nobody's noticed his ploys. Georgia made the first move on South Ossetia, by the way. But yeah, the presence of Russian 'peacekeepers' is quite suspect... Oh, i'm aware of Georgia's initiation of the conflict, but Russia's response didn't occur until the 8th - and I don't think the Black Sea fleet could have mobilised that quick without prior planning. But, i've been thinking that the Russian occupation as far as Gori might be an attempt to create a 'buffer-zone' - to prevent further Georgian shelling of Ossetia, and possible attack on Abkhazia. The Georgian airforce barely numbers 40 craft, so it's irrelevant in terms of air superiority - they'd be shot down before they could do anything, and the Georgian navy has 18 boats - none of which do much with a Russian Fleet on the doorstep. So, shelling is the only option that Georgia would have, and Russia has now denied them that. At least, I hope that's what Russia's doing, and not going for a whole occupation. But they have stated that Pres. Saakashvili should face a war crimes tribunal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mur'phon Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 And now, apparently the Ukrainian Navy is refusing to allow the return of Russian ships to their fleet bases. I hope that Ukraine doesn't get involved, as that would likely make the situation worse. But at least provide Russia with a nasty speed bump, the kind that'll cost you thousands at a mech, and more importantly might force the west to react. But I don't know why some people are focusing on Medvedev, it's clear Putin still holds all the cards. Because Dima is getting more and more powerfull simply by being press, while Vlad gets weaker. Provided Vlad dosen't do anything drastic, he'll be press for real. Even now he can oppose Vlad on certain issues, Vlad might be the current pupeteer, but his pupet is learning how to do thing without the strings. Putin is probably still pulling the strings - he likely always will. You must admit, it is clever the way he has manoeuvred to keep power but stay within the constitution. Vlad could have changed the constitution easily, that he hasn't makes me believe he wants to ensure a smooth transition of power, and a way to keep his wealth. Oh of course. Russia won't stop with Georgia - they've publicly claimed that they want a return to the 'old ways' - large Fleets patrolling the seas, Russian Jets scaring NATO Forces - which is already happening. Hardly, Russian leaders aren't insane, counquering their neighbours would be worse than taking Iraq, sure, they'd get the teritory, but it would hardly be worth it. Now, turning them into satelites is another matter. But yeah, the presence of Russian 'peacekeepers' is quite suspect... Not really, it was part of an old agreement. edit: Vlad and Dima hates Sakasshvili, they want a pro Russia guy to pilot the satelite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Oh yes, very clever, but he seems to be the only person who thinks that nobody's noticed his ploys. Who knows what the Russians believe? They are, after all, the only ones who could stop Putin from grabbing power behind the scenes. From other posts in this thread, the Russian government seems adept at the fine art of concealment of fact from the citizenry. At least, I hope that's what Russia's doing, and not going for a whole occupation. But they have stated that Pres. Saakashvili should face a war crimes tribunal... Annexation of some kind could be looming - secure the seperatist regions first, then strike from three positions (S. Ossetia, Abkhazia and...the other one). 'Dima' (that's for you mur'phon:xp:) did say: "I must protect the life and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are. We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk102 Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 I'm actually surprised Ukraine is being so bold - but they're telling Russia they can't be bullied like they used to. Why does this surprise you? They haven't forgotten how Russia attempted to rig their elections in '04. Arguably, Yushchenko is "the face" of Russian defiance. The fact that Russia is using their ports to stage an invasion is the last thing they would placate. According to Russia, Ukraine has been selling tanks, helicopters and SAMs to Georgia. So if "peacekeeping" is the overt explanation for actions in Georgia, it seems reasonable to expect similar actions against Ukraine by extension, along with Ukraine's unwillingness to provide harbor for the Russian navy simply adding fuel to the fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Oh hell... Bush has made a statement in which he openly accuses Russia of trying to depose the Georgian government, and condemns them. Further, Russian forces have entered Georgia from Abkhazia and S. Ossetia. I hate being right (well, close enough...) Annexation of some kind could be looming - secure the seperatist regions first, then strike from three positions (S. Ossetia, Abkhazia and...the other one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Rider Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 The existance of Russian "peacekeepers" is not suspect. The existance of Russian peacekeepers was part of a deal worked out by the UN, Georgia, S Ossetia and Russia quite a long time ago. Forces from all 3 have been in S Ossetia to "keep the peace" since then. It's obvious of course that the Russian forces held the advantage even then. As for the Ukraine, it's nice to see them standing up before Russia gets a chance to put them down. From what I heard, lots of old Soviet nukes ended up in the Ukraine when the USSR broke up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Am I mistaken, or is there supposed to be peace during the Olympics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True_Avery Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Am I mistaken, or is there supposed to be peace during the Olympics? Yeah, isn't the world supposed to be peaceful to one another during this time? I mean, an armed conflict of a smaller country by a world superpower during the Olympics would just looks bad. Oh wait... On the subject of the Georgia/Russia conflict, I hope it gets solved cleanly. Wouldn't want Russia thinking it can take over neighboring territories simply because nobody will stand up against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 On the subject of the Georgia/Russia conflict, I hope it gets solved cleanly. Wouldn't want Russia thinking it can take over neighboring territories simply because nobody will stand up against them. Hope springs eternal, but a peaceful solution is beginning to seem less and less likely, given the widespread condemnation of Russia by other world powers, yet their continued advance. Cold War 2: The Sakashvilli Legacy anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mur'phon Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 It seems like a lot of you think that the russian media is on a short leash, it isn't. There are independent media, and they have a fair bit of freedom. They are covering the war, mostly with Russian bias, but some small ones take the Georgians side. Sure, the state/pro-state media dominate, but as one editor in a state owned newspaper put it: "I am not told what I can or can't write, but like any other newspapers, we have to give the people what they want to survive. And right now, Putin is God, and woe betide the sales of any paper who blasphemes". 'Dima' (that's for you mur'phon) Russians love to make long names that is a pain to write, which is why they have a shorter version of every tounge twister. Dima=Dimitry. given the widespread condemnation of Russia by other world powers, yet their continued advance. When someone rob and rape your neighbour, don't be surprised if he dosen't stop after you tel him he is a bad boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Hope springs eternal, but a peaceful solution is beginning to seem less and less likely, given the widespread condemnation of Russia by other world powers, yet their continued advance. Well, there's reports that Medvedev (or Putin) have ordered Russian troops to cease 'Operations in Georgia'. But this could all be a load of hot air. I just hope Georgia doesn't try and fight back if the Russians withdraw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Why is there not peace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Why is there not peace? Now that the UN has agreed on it, peace (ceasefire at least) has fallen. Russia has not used its veto, so it seems as though they will abide by it. BBC Article Hopefully now this thread won't become 'The road to World War 3: The modders' view.' Edit: 100th post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverNight Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 You never know... Though, looking at Russia (Or, should I say the Soviets) during their era and the UN... how many UN agreements did the Russian's follow when it hindered them? I don't have numbers, but I believe it wasn't that many. And, since most of the Russian Government is the Old Guard, it stands to reason that they'll be following in the same pattern. Oh well, it could be the calm before the storm, after all, the Ceasefire allows them to move in more troops so that when its lifted they'll be able to blitz right into the Heart of Georgia... But, since it isn't happening today... I still have hope! That is, until my cynicism sets in again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW01 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Though, looking at Russia (Or, should I say the Soviets) during their era and the UN... how many UN agreements did the Russian's follow when it hindered them? Thinking on it, which major power has ever obeyed the UN when it contradicted their wishes? Think the US (and UK:()and Iraq? It's similar to the old Leagu of Nations, except it hasn't realised it yet... Also, if I have understood it correctly, the ceasefire is based around the Olympic period. Once that passes, who knows what may happen. I know this - Ukraine and Georgia would be stupid to challenge Russia. They have made a show of power that won't soon be forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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