Police and excessive force

[Rev7]

Already addressed. There is no guarantee that Australian police even have Tazers. Even if they did, they wouldn't risk using non-lethal weapons in a enclosed, close-quarters situation.

True.

 

If a kid was running at me with a knife, I would shoot him. I have thought that since the beginning, I just think that there are also alternatives to death. Thats all. I know that sometimes there is not time to come at something like what happened in a non-lethal way. I totally understand that.

[Tommycat]

I hate the argument of shoot the leg. Police are trained to shoot center of mass. Shooting a leg is a very bad idea. First off, the leg is a smaller target. Second, the leg can move more readily than center of mass(barring shooting at Neo:D). Third, there are major arteries that run through the leg. Fourth, a leg injury does not ensure the person will comply. Fifth, an injured person can sue for the hardship of crippling them(it's happened).

 

If you need more reasons, I can give them to you. But the biggest, and most common argument is the same reason they do not normally aim for the head. It's a harder target to hit.

 

It is the police officer's job to protect the citizens. They, for the most part, try to do so as safely as possible. However, If it comes down to a police officer dieing or a perpetrator dieing, I'll go for the perp. The dead offender cannot kill a person, and the officer can protect another life. I've had my share of run-ins with the police.

 

Sadly police are people too. Meaning some are good and others are bad. Just be glad you aren't judged by what actions the worst in your field do. I mean recently we had security guards robbing convienience stores. Should you be judged by their actions? Should you be treated like a potential robber just because of your job. These stories are a gross exaggeration of the real situation. I'm sure we can find a few stories of security guards that killed people.

 

As to the suit against the Tazer. It was because the Tazer was marketed as "Non-lethal" which implies that it cannot kill. They have since revised it to "Less lethal" to more accurately express what it is.

[jonathan7]

I have only one question on this matter - what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

 

Yes, this type of thing happens way too often. My local news paper .

 

I agree with Achilles on this one. When a police officer tell you to jump, the correct response is how high.

 

Balls! If I'm asked politely I'll jump, if a police officer fails to address me in a suitably respectful manner I'll make life difficult.

 

Two separate examples.

 

Example 1. When at uni, a police officer strolled into the pub we were in and very aggressively asked what my name and a friends name were (the two of the group who had shaved heads). I refused to give my name, because he hadn't asked in a suitably respectful manner; and told him thus. He failed to asked respectfully so I didn't give him my name. Of course what really amused me, was this cop was such a moron, that just asking for my name (and no ID) meant I could of said I'm Joe Bloggs and he'd of been none the wiser.

 

Example 2. When at home, there had been a burglary involving a man wearing pink shoes - I was wearing red ones, and the bar staff of the pub had reported me to police. Very nicely the two officers came over, asked to speak to me. They were very polite, and apologetic - and I was more than happy to be compliant.

 

I have not done anything wrong, so do not fear the law; I also know the law well enough to be a right pain in the bum, if the police try to push their weight about.

[Rabish Bini]

Example 1. When at uni, a police officer strolled into the pub we were in and very aggressively asked what my name and a friends name were (the two of the group who had shaved heads). I refused to give my name, because he hadn't asked in a suitably respectful manner; and told him thus. He failed to asked respectfully so I didn't give him my name. Of course what really amused me, was this cop was such a moron, that just asking for my name (and no ID) meant I could of said I'm Joe Bloggs and he'd of been none the wiser.

You don't have to provide any information unless he gives you his name, department/police station and such.

When a policeman says jump, you ask for his information.

[jonathan7]

You don't have to provide any information unless he gives you his name, department/police station and such.

When a policeman says jump, you ask for his information.

 

That's probably country specific though

[Rabish Bini]

That's probably country specific though

Most likely, and I'm guessing your not an Aussie

[Tommycat]

Example 1. When at uni, a police officer strolled into the pub we were in and very aggressively asked what my name and a friends name were (the two of the group who had shaved heads). I refused to give my name, because he hadn't asked in a suitably respectful manner; and told him thus. He failed to asked respectfully so I didn't give him my name. Of course what really amused me, was this cop was such a moron, that just asking for my name (and no ID) meant I could of said I'm Joe Bloggs and he'd of been none the wiser.

In the US this is known as Failure to comply

 

Example 2. When at home, there had been a burglary involving a man wearing pink shoes - I was wearing red ones, and the bar staff of the pub had reported me to police. Very nicely the two officers came over, asked to speak to me. They were very polite, and apologetic - and I was more than happy to be compliant.

You need a new bar LOL

 

I have not done anything wrong, so do not fear the law; I also know the law well enough to be a right pain in the bum, if the police try to push their weight about.

My general rule of thumb is to obey any person armed more than myself as long as I can still be attacked by them, regardless of whether they are police officers or not. Served me pretty well so far.

 

edit to add: Can we get the title changed to something like "Police and excessive force" so that it is somewhat less offensive? Done -- j7

[Jae Onasi]

True.

 

If a kid was running at me with a knife, I would shoot him. I have thought that since the beginning, I just think that there are also alternatives to death. Thats all.

 

Yes, the kid could have complied with the police to drop the weapon instead of trying to attack the cop with it. That would have been a great alternative.

[mimartin]

I have only one question on this matter - what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

He who has the gun makes the rules. At the moment an office pulls your vehicle over or confronts you he does not know if you are innocent or guilty. That really is not important at that time. The only thing he/she is concerned with is ascertaining if you are a threat or not. As the person pull over/stopped by the police, my first concern is not defending my innocents. My one and only priority is proving to this officer with a loaded weapon that I am not a threat to them or the public. After I’ve set the officer at ease, I can worry about showing the officer they have the wrong person.

 

In a perfect world, I’d be outraged about being innocent and having to conform by behavior to placate a government employee. However, the world is far from perfect. Just search YouTube under DPS officer shot to see videos of what Texas Department of Public Safety officers go though on routine traffic stops.

 

Balls! If I'm asked politely I'll jump, if a police officer fails to address me in a suitably respectful manner I'll make life difficult.[/Quote] Please if you ever visit Texas follow this advice. If an officer of the law commands you to do any reasonable command upon first confronting you, please follow that command. Yes, there are terrible police officers, but I have never met one. Most are reasonable and only desire is to go home to their family at the end of their shift. They don’t know who they just pulled over, they know nothing of your mental state; they don’t know you are an overall nice guy with just rebellious streak toward authority. You can try to make their life difficult; they can make your life miserable (at least in the short term).

 

If a police officer over steps their bonds, the wise course of action is to report them to their supervisor and not to confront them yourself.

I have not done anything wrong, so do not fear the law; I also know the law well enough to be a right pain in the bum, if the police try to push their weight about.

I got one for you. A white male driving a black Eagle Talon robbed a liquor store in the Woodlands, Texas (north of Houston). A white male driving a 1998 black Eagle Talon was driving down Clear Lake City Blvd 10 min later when he was pulled over by a police officer. I pulled over with two wheels in the grass in order to give the officer the largest margin of safety from passing motorist. I put my hands on the steering wheel so they were clearly visible to the officer and told my passenger to put his hands in a position so they were visible too. I had done nothing wrong, we were returning from a weekend in Austin. I was not speeding and had broken no traffic law and that is what had me so spooked. The officer and his partner approached the vehicle with guns drawn. My mission at that point is to defuse the situation as quickly as possible, not to escalate the situation by getting upset that they are confusing me with someone else. They have no way of knowing that I’m innocent. I was polite, respectful and complied with every command and the situation was cleared up quickly and peacefully. The officer even apologized before letting me and my friend continue on.

You don't have to provide any information unless he gives you his name, department/police station and such.

When a policeman says jump, you ask for his information.

It sounds as though you've never had a gun pointed at you. If the officer is requesting you comply to a command with his weapon pointed at you may I suggest you save your questions until after he has lowered that weapon. Even then, if it is a traffic stop and you would like a chance of getting out of the ticket, I’d suggest a very polite attitude and friendly demeanor.

[Jae Onasi]

I have gotten pulled over for speeding a few times, and once for an expired license plate (forgot to get the new sticker). Now, the option is to a. be polite and respectful, or b. get an attitude. I've exercised option a every time because they have guns and know how to use them, and even if they didn't have guns, they still have training in subduing people who are misbehaving. Even barring that, they can quite legally tack all sorts of added fines on to a ticket if they really want to give me a lesson on what happens if you're rude to a cop.

 

By exercising option a of being polite every time, I've been able with one ticket to get the speeding fine reduced. He put on the ticket that I was speeding, but put a speed less than what was on the radar gun, which put me into a lower fine bracket--this was about 20 years back so it may have been OK to do that then. Another time I got off with a warning because I was honest and polite. "I'm really sorry officer, I'm running late for work, and I have the worst migraine right now." "Ma'am, that means you should be driving even slower then." "You're probably right, sir." I must have looked like I had an awful headache then, which I did have. Every time I've been stopped, though, I've treated the officers with respect, and they in turn have treated me with respect and even kindness. We had a police officer come to our house one time to tell us 'your car is parked in the street'. I looked out the door and sure enough, our car, which has a standard, had rolled out of the driveway into the street (a certain male member of the family had forgotten to set the hand brake). It was dark out, and the officer made a point of letting me know about an icy patch on the sidewalk so that I wouldn't fall, and was just generally so nice about the situation that I actually called the police department the next day to let them know how much I appreciated how I'd been treated. He didn't have to go out of his way to be so nice, but he did.

[CommanderQ]

Well, everything that Officers do is for the betterment of the community, so being polite definatel helps them. Though whenever an officer tells you to do something, you do it, no question, it's for your own good. And if you obey the officer and very polite about everything concerning the policemen, then,as Jae showed the example, you could get cut some slack.

 

This brings something to mind on tickets. My friend's Dad used to work at a Prison facility as a Captain there, he also had had his most recent picture of his driver's license with his Captain's uniform on. So, when he was pulled over for going a bit over the speed limit, he was very polite towards the officer and gave him his driver's license.

 

When the officer looked at the license and looked at my Friend's Dad's uniform, he suddenly realized he was outranked! This didn't really phase the officer, but luckily he didn't get the ticket, probably due to the lack of tickets on his record and being polite to the officer...anyway, that's just a story. The moral: Don't get a speeding ticket.

 

Now, I do know that if someone is being a hinderance to a Police Officer like if they say "Hands over your head" then the officer has complete right to make the person put their hands over there heads, resisting an arrest is a crime already, but being haved to be made to do something as easy as putting your hands above your head just makes it worse. When an officer tells you to do something, you do it, no question, being a problem won't help you {Now if they tell you to do something unbelieveably stupid, which I doubt, then I'd understand resisting, but then again, Officers don't tell people to do stupid things} As I said earlier in the post, Officer's are doing what is best for the community, that deserves respect, and politeness wouldn't hurt. They aren't like an SS battalion, so really no reason to hate them or be a hinderance, they're out to help. If you are a hinderance to helping others, then the hinderance becomes part of the problem, and the problem must be solved.

[mur'phon]

Should cops be armed? Depends on the country. If it has restrictive gun laws, they, imo, shouldn't. The reason is that criminals expecting to face the police, if they arm themselves, do it depending to what they expect the police to have, and the ease of getting guns. If for instance the police have battons/tazers, they won't get an SMG as it'll be risky to aquire, and give the harsher punishments if they're caught.

 

As for tazers, the problem with them is that while they are suposed to be usead instead of guns, police officers tend to use them instead of battons. And while tazers don't usually kill, they do it often enough to be a poor substitute for old fashioned hand to hand subduing.

 

whenever an officer tells you to do something, you do it, no question, it's for your own good

 

Depends on were you live, were I live, you often do it for their new car.

[jonathan7]

Well, everything that Officers do is for the betterment of the community, so being polite definatel helps them.

 

Really, that why some of the cops near me enjoy friendly chats with the local drug lord?

 

To respond to mimartin, my attitude is a little different in America, a) It's not my country and b) as I think your cops are trigger happy (no offence) c) Finally; lets just say I'm not concerned with ruffling police feathers here.

[CommanderQ]

Really, that why some of the cops near me enjoy friendly chats with the local drug lord?

 

Well, there will always be some that are corrupt, but if you know who the local drug lord is, why don't you report it should you find anything that points to them as a drug lord. Also, not all the time is everything what it seems, for all you know, that drug lord could be, in fact, a mole placed in an organization meant to catch the big fish in the drug cartel. Then again, the cop could be corrupt, hopefully not.

 

 

Well, Mur'phon, where I live they at least want the betterment of the community. Though you can offer your services to wash their car, earn an extra buck, heh, that'd be fun. Though not all Police in every country are completely trustable, no offence, but I wouldn't really trust a Policemen in places like Mexico or, in some cases, Moscow.

[mimartin]

b) as I think your cops are trigger happy (no offence)

None taken, I'd agree police here are trigger happy, but I believe that is a byproduct of our populace being trigger happy. When you could be the target of any nutcase you happen to pull over for some minor offense, then you tend to shot first when presented with danger to your well being. I wish it was different, but I don’t believe the occupation of police officer should require the officer to be a martyr just in the off chance the idiot banishing a weapon does not really mean them or others bodily harm.

[jonathan7]

Well, there will always be some that are corrupt, but if you know who the local drug lord is, why don't you report it should you find anything that points to them as a drug lord. Also, not all the time is everything what it seems, for all you know, that drug lord could be, in fact, a mole placed in an organization meant to catch the big fish in the drug cartel. Then again, the cop could be corrupt, hopefully not.

 

CQ, if I know who the local drug lord is, are you really telling me the Police don't know who he is? The whole town know's what his real occupation. Yeah, cause police moles sit around in public, laughing with Police officers? :|

[CommanderQ]

CQ, if I know who the local drug lord is, are you really telling me the Police don't know who he is? The whole town know's what his real occupation. Yeah, cause police moles sit around in public, laughing with Police officers? :|

 

In some cases the police don't know, honestly, Law Enforcement is good, but they can miss the most minor and obvious of things. Yes, police moles can talk and laugh with officers...and if he is really a drug lord, then he obviously isn't selling drugs...yet. He could just be playing cozy, that too.

[Jae Onasi]

In some cases the police don't know, honestly, Law Enforcement is good, but they can miss the most minor and obvious of things. Yes, police moles can talk and laugh with officers...and if he is really a drug lord, then he obviously isn't selling drugs...yet. He could just be playing cozy, that too.

You don't arrest him right away because you want to see who he's getting his drugs from and who his associates are, and expand the information base to get to the big Kahuna who's running the national or international operation.

[CommanderQ]

True, also, you cannot arrest the man if there is no ample proof that he is a drug lord. A warrant or a report is what is needed to properly arrest, and as you said, he is a link to the group in the drug chain of command. Village rumors isn't enough to get a man arrested and put to justice, and the police probably do know. Thanks for the add-on, Jae!

[Rabish Bini]

It sounds as though you've never had a gun pointed at you. If the officer is requesting you comply to a command with his weapon pointed at you may I suggest you save your questions until after he has lowered that weapon. Even then, if it is a traffic stop and you would like a chance of getting out of the ticket, I’d suggest a very polite attitude and friendly demeanor.

That's a completely different scenario than what I was stating. I meant just when an officer asks your name and such, not if he has his gun pointed at you and ready to fire.

And obviously it should always be done politely, I never said you had to be rude.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I'm not a gun-lover, but I think it is important for officers to carry firearms. They should carry tasers as well. Those can effectively take down an opponent who has a knife, but without the firearm, it would do nothing for gun-toting criminals.

 

A pistol is not too excessive because they are not automatic weapons, but are effective at handing most situations where an officer's life is at risk. Or what if you had a situation where they had another's life at risk? If they only have a matter of seconds to act, their precious radios wouldn't do much good. A truncheon, or even an air taser would not be very effective at neutralizing the criminal before he kills a hostage or the officer himself.

 

It's like Rosevelt once said "Speak softly, but carry a big stick." This works well if the intent is to not use the stick/gun, but just carrying them would give more leverage in a situation. They can be dissuasive enough that people would not seek to challenge an officer. Just in case that's not enough, they still can call for backup.

 

I am not for everyone else carrying weapons, especially assault riffles, but this is too idealistic to ever be a reality. The only way to ensure the law is kept is to give officers all the means to protect both themselves and others. For that, they need both pistols and training in the use of non-lethal weapons.

[GarfieldJL]

Should cops be armed? Depends on the country. If it has restrictive gun laws' date=' they, imo, shouldn't. The reason is that criminals expecting to face the police, if they arm themselves, do it depending to what they expect the police to have, and the ease of getting guns. If for instance the police have battons/tazers, they won't get an SMG as it'll be risky to aquire, and give the harsher punishments if they're caught.[/quote']

 

The amateurish criminals maybe, the more psychotic ones tend to try to outgun whatever a cop has.

 

As for tazers, the problem with them is that while they are suposed to be usead instead of guns, police officers tend to use them instead of battons. And while tazers don't usually kill, they do it often enough to be a poor substitute for old fashioned hand to hand subduing.

 

Situation is that there are good cops and bad cops, and to be perfectly blunt gun control laws just make it harder for law-abiding citizens to get guns, the criminals just go and get guns off the black market.

 

While the situation with the kid is saddening, I do not blame the cop whom may very well be torn up inside because of what he had to do. I've heard of more blatent incidents of Police Brutality though.

[mur'phon]

The amateurish criminals maybe, the more psychotic ones tend to try to outgun whatever a cop has.

 

Provided it's worth the risk, and won't cause terrible problems if caught with them, then yes. However, it's not as easy to get a hold of such weapons in every country, which is why I am against the carrying of guns by for instance Norwegian police, and in favor of having U.S police carry them.

 

Situation is that there are good cops and bad cops, and to be perfectly blunt gun control laws just make it harder for law-abiding citizens to get guns, the criminals just go and get guns off the black market.

 

This of course supose that there is a black market that is easily accesible, which isn't the case everywhere.

[Tommycat]

Well in the US, there is a black market for almost everything that is banned. The rather porous border with Mexico makes it easier to get things like illegal arms. We saw something similar with when we had prohibition. Alcohol was brought in from Canada and many other countries(as well as produced by moonshiners).

[GarfieldJL]

Well in the US, there is a black market for almost everything that is banned. The rather porous border with Mexico makes it easier to get things like illegal arms. We saw something similar with when we had prohibition. Alcohol was brought in from Canada and many other countries(as well as produced by moonshiners).

 

There is also a pretty bad history concerning the attempts to ban guns in the United States. One of them is arguably why the 2nd Amendment is in the Constitution to begin with.