The Ayers thread

[GarfieldJL]

But you've failed to show how this effects Obama's thinking, or how it effects Obama's policy making. At most you've shown he's poor at picking social company; though I'd argue to a much lesser extent than Bush. Further more we could talk how Bush won via strange ballots and very narrowly; Obama didn't win narrowly; so it's a lot more pertinent with regards Bush than it is Obama.

 

Actually in 2000, the Supreme Court ended the recount for a pretty legitimate reason. Also your argument holds absolutely no water, because even Joseph Lieberman slammed the Democrats for some of their tactics (and he was Gore's running mate).

 

For many Democrats immersed in Florida's disputed presidential election, there was no worse moment than the one on Sunday, Nov. 19, when Senator Joseph I. Lieberman appeared on national television and said that election officials should give the ''benefit of the doubt'' to military voters.

 

Until then, the Democrats had conducted a full-scale effort to persuade counties to disqualify any overseas ballots that lacked postmarks or witness signatures. But on that morning, with Republicans attacking the Gore-Lieberman campaign for eliminating the votes of hundreds of men and women in the armed forces, Mr. Lieberman effectively disavowed the strategy.

-- New York Times

 

Then there is http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-949.ZPC.html

 

To sum it up the Democrats were trying to violate the "Equal Protection Clause".

 

To Quote the information found:

 

Seven Justices of the Court agree that there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand a remedy. See post, at 6 (Souter, J., dissenting); post, at 2, 15 (Breyer, J., dissenting). The only disagreement is as to the remedy.

 

That seven includes at least 1 probably 2 liberal justices and the swing vote. It wasn't a 1 vote decision, the Democrats got caught trying to cheat, even their own VP candidate bashed them for it.

 

 

Now to answer the question about Obama's thinking, by itself it doesn't but considering the number of associations and even Obama has said something about an acorn not falling far from a tree. You have a huge number of radical left friends, chances are you're also radical left, especially when you're funnelling money to their projects.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Now to answer the question about Obama's thinking, by itself it doesn't but considering the number of associations and even Obama has said something about an acorn not falling far from a tree. You have a huge number of radical left friends, chances are you're also radical left, especially when you're funnelling money to their projects.

Fine. He has "radical left" ideologies. Please inform me as to why I should care. Please inform me why I should discount everything Ayers has done based on some of his actions -- why do his crimes cancel out his good deeds? Or are you counting them as crimes as well because you disagree with his politics?

 

Thanks.

[GarfieldJL]

Fine. He has "radical left" ideologies. Please inform me as to why I should care. Please inform me why I should discount everything Ayers has done based on some of his actions -- why do his crimes cancel out his good deeds? Or are you counting them as crimes as well because you disagree with his politics?

 

I hardly consider indoctrinating children into the far-left ideology to be a good deed. That man shouldn't be within 1,000 miles of a school, let alone a Professor. Especially since he isn't even sorry for the bombings.

 

The man is a terrorist and killed people, he tried to kill more people. He's bragged about it, and wishes he could have bombed more targets, that's not a man I want near or anyone he's taught near my kids. And Obama financed this lunatic's pet projects of radicalizing children.

[jonathan7]

*Warning, some may consider this controversial*

 

On Bush's 2000 election? You really don't want to push this; How is America a democracy, when the popular vote, i.e. the Person with the most votes wasn't president;

 

George W. Bush Republican Texas 50,456,002 47.87%

Al Gore Democratic Tennessee 50,999,897 48.38%

 

So you have States being worth more than others, which puts pay to the idea of everyone being born equal, no? Put's pay to the notion of one man, one vote. So basically you had a guy in charge, that the majority of people didn't vote for. Do you really want to go here? To bring that on topic, Obama was swept in, some 10 million ahead of McCain, meaning to the majority of Americans, these supposed left-wing radicals don't concern them.

 

Now to answer the question about Obama's thinking, by itself it doesn't but considering the number of associations and even Obama has said something about an acorn not falling far from a tree.

 

See, here's my problem Garfield; I'm not Obama's biggest fan, as he reminds me of Blair in '97. However he's already proven he's a better President than Bush as he's said he's going to get rid of Guantánamo Bay (the biggest single own goal, in politics, ever! We represent freedom, but will lock people up and torture them). It seems to me your paranoid about Obama, yet to be honest, all this Ayers stuff is irrelevant, as unless you show facts about how Obama's supposed radical-left associations are effect policy it's all irrelevant, as you've just got conjecture. And I would once again put forward that if he's guilty of anything let due process do it's course.

 

I hardly consider indoctrinating children into the far-left ideology to be a good deed. That man shouldn't be within 1,000 miles of a school, let alone a Professor. Especially since he isn't even sorry for the bombings.

 

Good to see freedom of speech is still alive. Who should decide what is, or is not allowed in school?

[jrrtoken]

The man is a terrorist and killed people, he tried to kill more people. He's bragged about it, and wishes he could have bombed more targets, that's not a man I want near or anyone he's taught near my kids. And Obama financed this lunatic's pet projects of radicalizing children.

Before you go into more ravings on how liberals are raping America, I'd like for you to very closely at this post and actually answer the question, rather than change the topic:

But you've failed to show how this effects Obama's thinking, or how it effects Obama's policy making. At most you've shown he's poor at picking social company; though I'd argue to a much lesser extent than Bush. Further more we could talk how Bush won via strange ballots and very narrowly; Obama didn't win narrowly; so it's a lot more pertinent with regards Bush than it is Obama.

[Adavardes]

I hardly consider indoctrinating children into the far-left ideology to be a good deed. That man shouldn't be within 1,000 miles of a school, let alone a Professor. Especially since he isn't even sorry for the bombings.

 

The man is a terrorist and killed people, he tried to kill more people. He's bragged about it, and wishes he could have bombed more targets, that's not a man I want near or anyone he's taught near my kids. And Obama financed this lunatic's pet projects of radicalizing children.

 

I want:

 

1. Proof that he ever actually bragged about his violent actions specifically, not his political stance, and said "I wish I blew up more ****".

2. Proof that he has ever taught his students left-wing radicalism, and is called such by a few sources, both conservative AND liberal, and

3. Sources other than Newsbusters, Fox News, and similar news sources with totally conservative bias.

 

Until I get these, this attack on Ayers is wrong in my eyes, and always will be. End of story.

 

Furthermore, if you are seeking to somehow prove that his so called "relationship" with Obama is indicative of Obama's philosophies, I want:

 

1. Proof of affiliations with these "20 other disreputable people and organisations"

2. Proof that this somehow means he believes what they believe, with viable sources in psychology that effectually argue against free will

3. All of these things without touching a Newsbusters blog, Fox news, or similar news sources with totally conservative bias.

 

Good luck.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I hardly consider indoctrinating children into the far-left ideology to be a good deed.

Or are you counting them as crimes as well because you disagree with his politics?

My divining powers grow with each passing day.

 

That man shouldn't be within 1,000 miles of a school, let alone a Professor. Especially since he isn't even sorry for the bombings.

Flawed logic. Criminals can be smart as well.

 

The man is a terrorist and killed people, he tried to kill more people. He's bragged about it, and wishes he could have bombed more targets, that's not a man I want near or anyone he's taught near my kids. And Obama financed this lunatics pet projects of radicalizing children.

Yes, we get that he's done bad things, but why should we a) believe your whole indoctrination theory; and b) agree with your demonization of left wing politics?

[GarfieldJL]

1. Proof that he ever actually bragged about his violent actions specifically, not his political stance, and said "I wish I blew up more ****".

 

Oh you mean This:

You mean to tell me he never read the print media from Chicago where he lives? Chicago Magazine/August-2001

 

And here is an article from the New York Times

 

2. Proof that he has ever taught his students left-wing radicalism, and is called such by a few sources, both conservative AND liberal, and

3. Sources other than Newsbusters, Fox News, and similar news sources with totally conservative bias.

 

I'm going to be completely blunt: Try to prove me wrong on my statements concerning what he teaches, because I'm kinda sick of posting up proof for you to not bother reading especially since I can't stand the New York Times at all. And try to find a source that isn't a left wing propaganda pulpit to back up your sources. I can find stuff to prove he taught left-wing radicalism, but I'm quite frankly getting a little annoyed with people demanding I provide evidence that I already provided at least a dozen times.

 

Flawed logic. Criminals can be smart as well.

 

I really don't care how smart he is aside from the fact it makes him even more dangerous to children.

 

Yes, we get that he's done bad things, but why should we a) believe your whole indoctrination theory; and b) agree with your demonization of left wing politics?

 

Teachers are in a position of authority over their students and are extremely vulnerable, look at the inappropriate (putting it mildly) teacher/student relationships as an example.

[Astor]

I'm not saying Obama planned the fraud stuff in 2008, but he probably was involved in prior elections.

 

Probably? You'll have to do better than speculation to convince us of that.

[GarfieldJL]

Probably? You'll have to do better than speculation to convince us of that.

 

I'm still waiting on you to prove me wrong about what I've said about Ayers, and not using a left wing propaganda source in the process, because I've used both liberal and conservative sources to back up my statements.

[The Doctor]

Burden of proof is on you, Garfield, the accussing party. You have still not proven, to anyone, that Obama's ties to Ayers - or anyone else you're trying to unjustly smear, for that matter - has any sort of impact on his own views. I am personally surrounded by people I would classify as right wing nutbars of varying relationships ranging from unfortunate acquaintanceship to one of my closest friends. Their political views and beliefs have absolutely no effect on my own. Prove that Obama is being negatively influenced by these so-called radicals, or just please stop.

[GarfieldJL]

Burden of proof is on you, Garfield, the accussing party. You have still not proven, to anyone, that Obama's ties to Ayers - or anyone else you're trying to unjustly smear, for that matter - has any sort of impact on his own views.

 

And I have provided proof several times over, but people have simply chosen to ignore the articles I've posted, and it doesn't matter if they included videos, transcripts from the Illinois State Senate, Financial Ties, etc. Nobody bothers to read them, even when I use left-wing sources to back up what I say.

 

I am personally surrounded by people I would classify as right wing nutbars of varying relationships ranging from unfortunate acquaintanceship to one of my closest friends.

 

Are you saying I'm a nutcase too, I really don't think they are as out there as you're saying.

 

Their political views and beliefs have absolutely no effect on my own. Prove that Obama is being negatively influenced by these so-called radicals, or just please stop.

 

Have your friends committed terrorist acts and tried to kill people? Furthermore have you provided money to further their ideological agenda?

[jonathan7]

And I have provided proof several times over, but people have simply chosen to ignore the articles I've posted, and it doesn't matter if they included videos, transcripts from the Illinois State Senate, Financial Ties, etc. Nobody bothers to read them, even when I use left-wing sources to back up what I say.

 

For everyone to think about; Both sides are both complaining of this. This thread is going no-where fast. I don't think either side is going to back down at all. -- j7

[GarfieldJL]

For everyone to think about; Both sides are both complaining of this. This thread is going no-where fast. I don't think either side is going to back down at all. -- j7

 

jonathan7 I must respectfully disagree, I have yet to see one conservative news source saying that Ayers is being repentent. I can find plenty of left wing news sources that show Ayers bragging. Which is quite frankly why I'm asking for one.

 

The fact he is a College Professor from Chicago doesn't inspire confidence, because Chicago has one of the worst school systems in the country.

[jrrtoken]

jonathan7 I must respectfully disagree, I have yet to see one conservative news source saying that Ayers is being repentent. I can find plenty of left wing news sources that show Ayers bragging. Which is quite frankly why I'm asking for one.

Are trying to imply that you're only sure that and article is true if it's hosted on a conservative news site?

The fact he is a College Professor from Chicago doesn't inspire confidence, because Chicago has one of the worst school systems in the country.

I suppose you're right, the University of Chicago is one of the world's most prestigious universities. Home to 82 Nobel laureates, it's obviously a complete party school.

[Adavardes]

jonathan7 I must respectfully disagree, I have yet to see one conservative news source saying that Ayers is being repentent. I can find plenty of left wing news sources that show Ayers bragging. Which is quite frankly why I'm asking for one.

 

No, conservatives would never be willing to admit that a man they're trying to pin Obama on isn't as bad as they're painting him. That'd totally ruin their whole campaign against the evil terrorist Obama, who is going to blow up our nation.

 

And, I'm fairly sure that, as pre-established by your earlier posts, that your definition of what is "left-wing" is very much open for debate. If not completely erroneous. You keep saying that liberals are painting conservatives as nutbars, but you try to make us seem like crazed, homicidal radicalists (ineffectually, I might add), merely to serve your purpose, which, btw, you have yet to share with us.

 

I would like to know exactly what the point of calling Ayers a terrorist really is. What attempting to prove these 20 or so connections you claim Obama has serves. Are you, or are you not, attempting to prove the point that Obama is somehow affected by these "associations" (still totally not proven), and that because of this, he is going to cause intentional harm to our country?

 

I'd like to know, because if you are, then I'm not wasting my time with this anymore.

[jonathan7]

jonathan7 I must respectfully disagree, I have yet to see one conservative news source saying that Ayers is being repentent. I can find plenty of left wing news sources that show Ayers bragging. Which is quite frankly why I'm asking for one.

 

You can disagree but the thread has generally gone like this;

 

Person 1: Ayers is a terrorist and is effecting Obama.

 

Person 2: No he isn't/

 

Person 3: No he isn't

 

Person 1: Yes he is.

 

Person 2. No he isn't

 

Person 4. No he isn't

 

Person 5 "No he isn't" - QFT

 

Person 1: Yes he is

 

Person 2: No He isn't

 

Etc Etc.

 

Jae falls over laughing....

[Adavardes]

Again see the September 11, 2001 news article by the New York Times of an interview of Bill Ayers. That I had posted repeatedly in another thread. Now consider the public backlash from the events of 9/11.

 

Bill Ayers has nothing to do with Bush. Stop using him to make your rhetoric seem more valid, because no two people have ever had less to do with one another than these two. Not because Bush is the pinnacle of perfection and Ayers is some villianous scum, no, just because Ayers is liberal, and Bush is conservative. And also too busy being in bed with the oil industry to handle another relationship.

 

Also, anything that happened during 9/11 isn't at all relevant to the public opinion of Bush. Most Americans were scared, and Bush fed off that fear and amplified it to accomplish his alterior goal, which was to start that vendetta on his father's old nemesis. Therefore, he used empty threats of terrorism and nuclear war to garner public support.

 

And we shouldn't consider him the most powerful terrorist alive... why?

 

Sources:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3718150.stm

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd/

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0306-21.htm

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/10/18/417347.aspx

 

Inversely, I got a kick out of this, as it completely contradicts every other source I've seen.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

[GarfieldJL]

Forever Night, I was making the point that Bush did not suspend it.

 

Bill Ayers has nothing to do with Bush. Stop using him to make your rhetoric seem more valid, because no two people have ever had less to do with one another than these two. Not because Bush is the pinnacle of perfection and Ayers is some villianous scum, no, just because Ayers is liberal, and Bush is conservative. And also too busy being in bed with the oil industry to handle another relationship.

 

I'm talking about the New York Times article and what the public reaction to it was.

[Adavardes]

I'm talking about the New York Times article and what the public reaction to it was.

 

Then what was the point of dropping Ayers in there?

[GarfieldJL]

Okay and Now I shall tie this together financially

 

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=190343

 

A video of a report by CNN.

 

Edit:

Then what was the point of dropping Ayers in there?

 

Because he was the guy that the New York Times Interviewed...

 

 

And I haven't gotten to pointing out MSNBC's pathological hatred of the President yet, but I'll get to it soon enough.

[Adavardes]

Because he was the guy that the New York Times Interviewed...

 

 

And I haven't gotten to pointing out MSNBC's pathological hatred of the President yet, but I'll get to it soon enough.

 

Sure, because that's all you meant by throwing his name around.

 

And I think you're confusing Bush with Obama, and MSNBC for Fox News.

 

Or, you could be confusing Bush with facts and logic. Not sure yet.

[The Doctor]

And I have provided proof several times over, but people have simply chosen to ignore the articles I've posted, and it doesn't matter if they included videos, transcripts from the Illinois State Senate, Financial Ties, etc. Nobody bothers to read them, even when I use left-wing sources to back up what I say.

You have provided biased sources that have, in my opinion, absolutely 100% no credibility. At all.

 

 

Are you saying I'm a nutcase too, I really don't think they are as out there as you're saying.

And you have no right to comment on my associates' political ideologies, however, by saying that they "aren't that out there". You don't know them, quite frankly. Kinda like how you don't know Ayers, but we won't touch on that one.

 

 

Have your friends committed terrorist acts and tried to kill people? Furthermore have you provided money to further their ideological agenda?

Irrelevant. One of my best friends is a die-hard, Bible-thumping Christian, and both he and my favourite uncle are strong supporters of the Conservative Party of Canada. By your logic, that means I have to be just as right-wing as they are. The extent of their ideology doesn't change the fact that their own beliefs have no effect on me whatsoever. That's the point you're cimpletely ignoring missing here.

[Jae Onasi]

FoxNews' reporting in the regular news segments is considered factual. The opinion reporting and commentators such as O'Reilly and Hannity are indeed biased to the conservative, but the reporting of the news itself is accurate. Otherwise, using the logic that we should throw everything by Fox out, we should throw out everything said by CNN, MSNBC, and the NYTimes because of their significant liberal bias in their opinion programs and editorials.

 

I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If there's something reported in the regular news segments by either CNN, Fox, or MSNBC, I'm fine with those facts and reports.

 

The opinion reporting by Hannity, Colmes, O'Reilly, etc, is just that--opinion. The NYTimes has been caught enough times with inaccuracies that they didn't retract, and at least 1 reporter completely making up stories, that I cannot trust them as a reliable news outlet anymore.

[GarfieldJL]

Sure, because that's all you meant by throwing his name around.

 

And I think you're confusing Bush with Obama, and MSNBC for Fox News.

 

Or, you could be confusing Bush with facts and logic. Not sure yet.

 

I've confused nothing I can find evidence to prove MSNBC has absolutely no credibility just by who they used to cover the conventions as "objective journalists" and some other stuff.

 

http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/story/blogger_convention_organizer_said_rnc_protesters_had/

 

While I will acknowledge this source is a blogger, I remember the report on Fox News when I was watching the Republican Convention that Code Pink protesters had gotten in with press passes. The blogger is stating it was MSNBC press passes. I'll try to find a second source.