Kreia Vs Palpatine?

[Allronix]

Straight up saber brawl would go to Palpatine. He was able to shred three Jedi masters, broke a bit of a sweat with Windu, and dueled Yoda to a draw. Kreia? Combat is her weak point. She's mediocre to awful with a saber unless she's TK-ing it.

 

Scheming ability: Tough call, but I hand it to Kreia. The main problem is that Palpatine's stunts got found out eventually. Meanwhile, while we know she was playing EVERYONE in K2 like cheap flutes, Exile included, we can only guess at the REST of what that misplaced Reverend Mother managed to do under everyone's nose. We still don't know her true identity! Ever notice she was the ONLY one in K2 who seemed to know anything about the "True Sith?" Was she one of the ones who set up the Mandalorians? Did she set events in motion that led Revan down the Dark Path and right to the Star Forge? The fact we don't know, and the fact she worked so quietly that no one either noticed or could do anything about it, is definitely impressive.

 

Sith Skillz: Considering the amount of knowledge and techniques available to Palpatine was probably limited big time by Bane's Rule of Two, as compared with Kreia's encyclopedic knowledge as both Trayus's guardian and a Jedi Archivist? She hands him his sorry butt in this category.

 

Ambition: Palpatine wanted the Galaxy, like any meglomaniac. Kreia essentially wanted to kill God. Palpatine succeeded in his ambition, but definitely had his sights set lower than Madame Kreia.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Also, Darth Yuthura, Kreia may have beat three Jedi Masters, but how did she do it? She did it the wimpy way, by simply using some uber powered Drain Life (how else would they lose their presence in the Force?). Palpatine, on the other hand, killed three masters with one saber. That tells me Kreia was either a wimp, or too lazy to pull out a saber.

 

If Palpatine could have done the same, he would have. Sith have no ambiguity in regards to honor, so if old Palpy could just kill them in an instant... he would have. Kriea wasn't just lazy; no one as powerful as she/yoda/palpatine would have become so powerful by being lazy. Palpatine attacked with a lightsaber because he wasn't powerful enough to beat his enemies with the Force.

 

Darth Vader was all brute strength and no brains... he could win with a lightsaber, but lose in every other way that mattered. A lightsaber is easy to kill with, but a skilled Force user could entirely negate that advantage.

[Darth Hord]

Sith Skillz: Considering the amount of knowledge and techniques available to Palpatine was probably limited big time by Bane's Rule of Two, as compared with Kreia's encyclopedic knowledge as both Trayus's guardian and a Jedi Archivist? She hands him his sorry butt in this category.

 

She doesn't hand him anything here. Traya's only advantage is Malachor but as I said above, it is just another Ancient sith world, the only thing that makes it different then Korriban for instance, is the fact that it wasn't raided so it's knowledge was intact. Other Malachor V the only other sith world that we know for a fact she has been to is Korriban and she didn't step off the Ebon Hawk.

 

She has Malachor and her jedi knowledge vs the following for Sidious.

 

Sidious has the Telos Holocron: which is basically a sith version of the jedi's great holocron and dates back to the time of the ancient sith given some of it's gatekeepers which inlcude the likes of Ajunta Pall,Darth Bane and Naga Sadow. I would like to point out that two if the mentioned gatekeepers were ancient sith and Darth Bane's sith knowledge comes from Revan's, Nadd's and Belia Darzu's holocron so he has some rich knowledge to put in despite him living only 1000 years before Sidious. Count Dooku also extracted the knowledge from Darth Anddedu's holocron so this is another source of sith knowledge that Palpatine could potentially have access to. That's a lot of sith knowledge coming only from holocrons.

 

Sidious has also visited the following worlds/moons, Korriban,Vjun,Khar Delba,Khar Shian,Thule and Drmun Kaas. So I don't see how Traya's sith knowledge, Malachor (it's the only known sith planet she traveled to,to study on that we know of and thus can only judge her on that) competes with Palpatine's sith knowledge and mind you that he had access to other force organizations, which I could post on if you like.

[RedHawke]

Now this I have to say is one of the most interesting commentaries I've seen so far on the nature of the Force. Rather than the sides of the Force being based upon abstract codes of morality, you are implying that essentially they are based upon the cycle of life and death. I'd find such a system much more preferable, although since life and death are closely interrelated it would essentially explain why the problem with the Jedi is stagnation and the problem with the Sith is self-destruction.

That is and how I will always view it, watch ESB and Yoda's comments carefully it alludes heavily to this. Then in Episode 1 Qui-Gon using the term 'The Living Force' it all but seals it (for me).

 

Since I only read these things off of Wookiepedia, I have never seen this list. It is quite extensive.

It is a very powerful ability and as such you have to have a certain mastery over the force to use it. Also, I treat Wookiepedia as being a 'nice' resource but it is not very comprehensive IMHO anyway.

 

Quite powerful. However, I would point out in the spirit of the original topic that Kreia not only had access to both many of the same Sith teachings that Palpatine did and many of the elite teachings of the Jedi, but ALSO the teachings of Malachor V.

Interesting theory but not shown to be true in the EU, see the modern levels of power are actually stronger as Palapatine would have access to all the things Kreia boasts plus others that were discovered or created in the time between the eras (Create Force Storm, Doppelganger, Transfer Life, Feed on the Dark Side, Enhanced Coordination, and others).

 

To analyze the Sith Lord trio from TSL; Nihilus has Drain Life (Or a variation thereof) other than that he seems to be a rather meat-and-potatoes Sith Lord in abilities other than his main one. Kreia can Drain Life but on a more limited scale (can defend against Nihilus it seems at certain moments), she has advanced Telekinetic abilities, but demonstrates no other major powers/abilities I suspect she is also a meat-and-potatoes Sith Lord but with a unique goal (Suspicions garnered from Exile's final fight on Malachor with her). Now Sion is a basic Sith Lord who has advanced his Control of the Force to be able to keep himself going bodily when others would expire, but he is quite defeat-able in other ways than talking him out of it as the Exile does.*

 

*Sion's "Immortality" could be disrupted by a rather common Jedi Power of Telekinesis but said challenging Jedi's ability to Alter the force would have to override Sion's Control of the Force to dissipate him. Then there is another common power (In the modern era) Control Anothers Pain, Sion's immense pain is also a key to his strength and 'life', eliminate that and you could then defeat him physically.

 

But there is obviously a major difference in the power level of the Sith from either era, and Old Sith Wars era seems to have things in their favor.

You seem to equate things to to the old era = more ability/power it is shown to us in the various EU stories to be the opposite I'm afraid.

 

Palapatine has demonstrated levels of power that all the old guard of the Sith couldn't even muster or at best could match in a limited way. Remember in this dual Palapatine has 4000 years on Kreia, that is valuable in that there are things he would know that she wouldn't, and very little she would know that can't be matched by Palapatine in some way. But this is actually somewhat non-sequitur as I was addressing your theories on Nihilus' abilities being god-like and they aren't, in the modern SW era anyway.

 

Though if the two Sith lords were indeed having a knock-down-drag-out fight their known powers wouldn't be but a small part of the actual battle. IMHO against an unknown opponent you definitely don't want to use 'flashy' powers you want to keep it simple and controlled feel your opponent out during the fight and if there is a weakness that comes apparent then exploit it, the battle would be fierce but in the end it would come up to who won the 'die rolls' if you know what I mean.

[R2-X2]

Palpatine would win against Kreia. He is way more better in manipulation than she could ever be. He could do it with her like the Exile did with Sion.

[Ultimate Vader]

Let's see, two of Star Wars' greatest philosophers and manipulators.... Tough call, but I'd go with Kreia. Her mastery and understanding of the Force is far great than Palpatine's (she make predictions that reach farther into the timeline than he ever could), and I doubt that Palpatine could have defeated the Exile at all. Why? 'Cause the Exile is the second most powerful individual in Star Wars history, right after Darth Nihilus. Force Vampires always have the edge over normal Force Users, so even Kreia couldn't stop the Exile.

 

Plus, Palpatine relies heavily on the Force, whereas Kreia has learned to use it minimally yet precisely. Palpatine would try and raise an army of clones to kill her, but Kreia would simply sneak in and use the Force to pinch a single artery in his brain that would cause instant death.

 

All in all, Kreia is the predecessor of Palpatine and easily his superior. Besides, the Jedi that Palpatine killed were so pathetic that 9 year old Anakin Skywalker could have killed them just by running them over with his podracer.

 

Your logic seriously failed in this topic. Palpatine is arguably the most powerful Sith Lord, not Nihilus, and the Exile is nowhere near that. The only reason Exile can beat Nihilus is because Nihilus, who is a "black hole", is trying to suck Exile, who is another "black hole" in the Force. Nihilus utterly failed. And he payed the price for that. His death.

 

You really need to improve your knowledge about EU, seriously. Jedi of Galactic Republic era (that means Anakin, Windu, Yoda, Kenobi, Sidious, and more) are the best generation of Jedi. If I remember correctly George Lucas stated all of this.

 

And even more, Palpatine collect all the holocron from all places in the galaxy and study all of them. He even create the real force lightning storm, that can create wormholes.

 

I never see Kreia do something that can protect him against Sidious' attacks. Another failed logic by you.

 

Your logic on this one is ridiculous it's not even laughable. Seriously, look at the threads in KMC and learn again.

 

All of Kreia's supporters here have a really flawed logic. Do you even read books about Sidious and his capabilities? AFAIK Kreia doesn't have anything to put her as the winner here.

 

Also, see these pictures. They will talk for me.

http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/Titan_Darkseid/Wormhole1.jpg

http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/Titan_Darkseid/Wormhole2.jpg

http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/Titan_Darkseid/Wormhole3.jpg

http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/Titan_Darkseid/Wormhole4.jpg

 

How will Kreia counter something like that? And don't make pure baseless assumption, "we never see the true potential" phrase, and what-ifs again. It's boring, not entertaining, and not smart move. Learn to use facts.

 

Sidious for the win. Try again.

[darth-nihilus]

its proven...in the game its said...!!!

no master from the present would match an ancient sith lord in battle...

if we apply this to the whole universe...palpatine would be no match for kreia !!

kreia is a super force user !! SHE KILLS 3 jedi masters without touching them and not just kill them..also strips the force out from them... !!

 

and a fact if we think about this in lightsaber combat...

palpatine matches with yoda.. (when yoda is using only the ATARU form)

AND KREIA WITHOUT HANDS CAN HANDLE 3 LIGHTSABERS APPLYING ALMOST THE 7 LIGHTSABER FORMS !!!

 

kreia is more sith lord than palpatine...

 

HAHAH at some time... palpatine just by being in front of nihilus would become a force zombie...at nihilus's service...

 

and lets imagine that palpatine archives to get his super lightning upon nihilus...

what does it do to him ?? he's not even human anymore !! he's a wound in the force !! the lightning just may burn nihilus's robes..and nothing else..

palpy...u'r a loser in front of any ancient dark lord... im sorry

[Ultimate Vader]

^

Look at KMC, there's already a thread like this. If you're shocked, don't blame me. Sorry, the comparation can only be used for Sith in Marka Ragnos era against Sith in Revan's era.

 

GL has already stated that the prime of Jedi and Sith are when time of Sidious, Windu, Obi-Wan, and Anakin. See KMC if you want proof.

 

I still tolerate your kind of post, but in other sites, no one will even support you. Prove it that Kreia has mastered all 7 forms, because no source has stated that. You speak nonsense.

 

Sidious will destroy Kreia, accept it. See other forums and educate yourself, so you won't sound so silly.

 

Do you even know that Sidious can use force drain? Check his respect threads, dude.

 

Another failed attempt of yours. And if you're wondering why I'm so hostile, that's because your way of debating is ridiculous it's not even funny and laughable. Don't even deserve a LOL.

 

 

As always, it's up to you to decide the winner. It's your mind after all. Just give some thoughts about my post before deciding it, okay?

[Lord of Hunger]

@ Ultimate Vader: Again, just like in the Death Star vs. Star Forge thread, I attempt to have a civilized debate and your reaction is to attack the poster. I admit, I've in the past gone overboard with the emotional content of my posts in heavy debates, but I never attack the poster, I always attack the content or at least try to (I've had to cut entire paragraphs from my posts because I was worried that they might be insulting). I do not know if you are having some sort of personal life problems but whatever you reasons are we are just trying to have a civilized debate on these forums. And it's not about being right for one thing, since you learn the most when you are wrong. Redhawke's comments have given me some interesting views on the Force to add to my perspective.

 

But I think I'm done with this thread as I've said all I can say for now. I'm hoping to work more on my arguments against the moral superiority of the Jedi.

 

Thank you all. Cheers,

 

Lord of Hunger

[Allronix]

She doesn't hand him anything here. Traya's only advantage is Malachor but as I said above, it is just another Ancient sith world, the only thing that makes it different then Korriban for instance, is the fact that it wasn't raided so it's knowledge was intact. Other Malachor V the only other sith world that we know for a fact she has been to is Korriban and she didn't step off the Ebon Hawk.

 

Actually, I was thinking about how much access she had. With the whole Jedi Archives and Malachor's Sith collection, she had the keys to the motherlode. Librarians are dangerous in that regard - if it exists in the stacks, they know how and where to find it. Worse is that Kreia actually knows how to put it all to use.

 

Kreia's like Oracle in that her physical limitations have zero effect on her frightening mental capacity. Palpatine wins hands down in a fight, but it would be a very close call on a battle of wits. I'm still putting cash on the librarian over the politician.

[Darth Hord]

Kreia's like Oracle in that her physical limitations have zero effect on her frightening mental capacity. Palpatine wins hands down in a fight, but it would be a very close call on a battle of wits. I'm still putting cash on the librarian over the politician.

 

I still think Palpatine has her in force knowledge (if you disagree then, just say so and I'll post the rest of the knowledge that I know he had access to, that I'm aware of). If you would like my friend on another site posted a pro Palpatine essay, and in it he has a "chapter" specifically for his force knowledge, now it's a little bias in opinion but the facts are there and he cites his sources.

 

As far a wit/intelligence goes, I still give it to Palpatine. This is a man who manipulated the entire galaxy and was playing both sides in the clone wars. He has spent extensive time near powerful jedi like Mace and Yoda and neither (or the other 10,000 jedi in the order) had any clue that Palpatine was really the sith lord they were looking for years. He also caused the destruction of outbound flight to lower the jedi numbers,order 66, the trade federations blockade of naboo,hell he convinced the senate to turn against the jedi who just won a war for them.

[RedHawke]

Redhawke's comments have given me some interesting views on the Force to add to my perspective.

Why thank you!

 

I would love to get some of you across a table for some good old fashioned PnP RPG action, I could teach a thing or two to a lot of you youngins! As it was taught to me and so on... kinda Jedi-like even!

[Gob]

It depends on which Sidious we're talking: Dark Empire Sidious or RotS Sidious. And by depends, I mean how long it would take for him to rip Kreia apart and then find out who does her makeup. Either way, Sidious wins be a very large margin.

[LordSerion]

Lord Sidious - it was stated that he is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

 

For one reason, he has a lot more knowledge at his disposal, since about 4000 years are between them - Kreia has no way to know about those secrets that were uncovered during that time, like Midichlorian manipulation, Life transfer, Force wormhole. Also, he had a Jedi Holocron (Bodo-Baas' if I remember correctly) and I think it's safe to say that he learned quite a bit of the Jedi's knowldge, too.

 

Two, Sidious often visited Korriban to seek out the Force Ghosts of the ancient ones, so he possibly learned a lot from them in both Force abilities and lightsaber skills.

[Darth Hord]

Lord Sidious - it was stated that he is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

 

For one reason, he has a lot more knowledge at his disposal, since about 4000 years are between them - Kreia has no way to know about those secrets that were uncovered during that time, like Midichlorian manipulation, Life transfer, Force wormhole. Also, he had a Jedi Holocron (Bodo-Baas' if I remember correctly) and I think it's safe to say that he learned quite a bit of the Jedi's knowldge, too.

 

Two, Sidious often visited Korriban to seek out the Force Ghosts of the ancient ones, so he possibly learned a lot from them in both Force abilities and lightsaber skills.

 

I think he did have more the Bodo-Bass' holocron, I believe the clone troopers also took more jedi holocrons when they attacked the temple. Plus he has knowledge from other force groups.

[Pikmin]

I noticed a few replies mentioned midichlorians, but what are midichlorians? The Jedi of Kreia's era believed the force was an energy field that was all around us, penetrating us. The ignorance of the Clone War era Jedi could have led them to believe that the force was only available via midichlorians(which would mean that the Exile would have had to cleanse herself of the critters.) In Ep IV Obi-Wan echoes Kreia's description of the force(or she echoes him) indicating that while in the Void Qui-Gon gained and passed on the knowledge of no 'chlorians.

 

But I digress, this is a debate for another topic.

[Endorenna]

Eh, I'm not sure who would win. I've never read the books where Palpy comes back and displays his true power, and Kreia never pushed herself to the max. They'd probably a) kill each other b) say "This is stupid. We're both manipulative old windbags, so let's join forces and wipe out the last few Jedi, whaddaya say?"