The Confirmed Truth Behind Revan & Malak

[TKA-001]

Was it programed to fill in what was missing(blank slate) or was it reprogramed to suppress the "Darth Revan" persona?

I'd say a little of both (his mind was not entirely blown up, so he had some memories left but they were all ****ed up & incoherent, so they "wiped" that excess gobbledygook when they programmed in the fake past). I'd rather just say the first one (because that's how it is explained as in KotOR, but there's no other way to reconcile the sources. Still, I'd almost bet money that the only reason that article says that the Council planned to reprogram Revan from the beginning is because whoever wrote that has a ****ed-up brain and thought that that's how the game said it was (the game itself says that the original point of the mission was just to kill or capture Darth Revan, nothing about reprogramming him until after they find out he's brain-damaged).

 

Furthermore, don't the Jedi Masters on Dantooine say they've never heard of the Star Forge before at all?

[Darth Avlectus]

I don't think it's said that the Sith Emperor was responsible for their fall the dark side. Instead, I think it is implied that he was the one who made them Sith (which, if you think about it, would mean that Revan, Malak, and all of their followers were indeed true Sith, despite what Kreia said). Remember, falling to the dark side and joining the Sith are not the same thing, and they need not necessarily occur at once.

 

True. While Exar Kun had fallen, Ulic Qel Droma wasn't as committed to the dark side. The spirit of that ancient sith lord Naga Sadow more or less 'inducted' both of them into the sith order.

 

 

 

Dude, I believe we (collectively) have been through this many times on these forums now: The "true Sith" mentioned in the loading screen was obviously a throw-away line that they intended to do nothing with. And it clearly does not refer to the same group that Kreia refers to. In the loading screen, seems clear (sorry to be so redundant here) that "true Sith" refers to the Sith species seen in the Tales of the Jedi comics, in order to differentiate between them and the mostly human Sith seen in the game.

 

I believe in addition to this it is chronicled somewhere in EU that the sith species actually died out.

 

 

The "true Sith" mentioned in The Sith Lords originally referred to something else entirely, having nothing to do with the line of succession that was a hybrid of the Sith species and the exiled Dark Jedi from the Hundred-Year Darkness (despite the claims LucasArts is making to the contrary now, Obsidian clearly had something else in mind back when they made the game);

 

I agree. We're not "just some small band of people who happens to dislike it along with any other release", we actually see what's happening. An about-face where LA decided in its infinite wisdom to change something in mid-stride. I wonder now if LA isn't bluprinting their things based on a "retcon-cameo-rehash" basis. Certainly would make sense given what we're seeing, and have continued to see.

 

but now it refers to the remnant of the Old Sith Empire that has been plotting in secret from the Unknown Regions, fleeing known space after the Great Hyperspace war.

 

Sorry to sound so snappy, but I'm getting a little tired of people trying to point out that the "true Sith" idea came from the first game when it obviously did not.

 

Well, isn't there that one mention by canderous in K1 that it hadn't originally been the mandalorians' idea to attck? Shem brought up some pictures of it some time back... Something about a mention of ancient sith that sealed themselves away from the galaxy after the war started. Still could have been idealist remnants, as that vader-malak-esque guy in the Deceived trailer looked to be still pretty human.

 

In fact, I doubt very much that BioWare ever anticipated that that one line from the loading screen - which was obviously used without much thought to describe something very simple to the audience - would gain so much attention later on.

 

Neither did any of us.

 

 

After reading over this thread, I can't help but agree with the majority: it seems that the developers want to disassemble all of the ideas that TSL laid down, and stick with their ideas about Revan. Way to keep to canon.

 

At any rate, I was iffy about the game being from the beginning, what with all of us having to pay monthly for the game. Destroying the a decent plot to fit in with their game is just another kick while we're down.

 

I agree. While it is going on the true sith idea in TSL and a few other small things about it.

 

Like this.

 

 

Y'know, considering that TSL was an unfinished and badly-enacted retcon of KotOR in the first place, I'm not feeling any outrage at TOR at all.

That's your opinion. Not fact.

 

I happen to think TSL was great and could have been so much better had LA not been a bunch of greedy b@$t@rd$.

 

Retcon #1 (and the most egregious, in my opinion) was the (Krea's) claim that the Jedi Council wiped Darth Revan's memories and then gave him a new identity loyal to the Republic,

 

IIRC Darth Malak said the same thing upon Revan's memory of who we was. So that's not exactly retcon.

 

but all statements concerning this in KotOR stated simply that the Jedi Council couldn't RESTORE Revan's personality "since Revan was too dangerous"; to me this implies that Revan's loss of memory was more due to cerebral damage that the turbolaser explosion on the bridge inflicted by Malak's attack before Bastilla saved Revan's life.

 

Oh? I thought Revan remembered it later on? Hence he went to the outer rim to face the threat?

 

That implies the council chose not to recover the memories of "Revan" because having a dark lord on their hands was

1) going to be impossible to sway back to the light

2) too dangerous

3) too vital to simply execute because of what he knew

 

If you think they ALL don't execute their prisoners, I only need remind you of Mace Windu...or let's go back some: Ulic Qel Droma and how the jedi were presiding over the senate about to execute Ulic Qel Droma. True the jedi weren't DOING the execution but even if you play with semantics this way, Jedi standing by and intent on watching the execution is about the same as doing it.

 

 

Add to this the (completely fanon) idea that Krea is Arren Kae (and thus the Handmaiden's mommy),

 

Hmm, let's see...

Disciple said Arren Kae was Revan's first instructor.

Kreia knew a lot about Arren Kae.

Arren Kae WAS Brianna's mother.

Kreia seemed to discourage a male exile from wanting to mate with Brianna.

There's probably more, but...

 

Ok, there is nothing that DEFINITIVELY makes that link, but that cuts both was as there issn't anything that definitively DISPROVES it, either.

...However Chris Avellone wrote TSL and when questioned upon that point he said he couldn't comment but "nice catch" which implies he had something to do with the implied idea. He's prevented from saying any more because of LA.

 

the near-ineffectiveness of the Exile (who can't seem to make a lightsaber without an engineer on hand, or even WITH one if the previous ten years is accounted for),

That was a game mechanism for those who may be first time players. :¬:

Furthermore, the exile seemed to have some issue with building another since her exile, regardless what dialogue options you chose.

 

 

*brevity*

Nice catch!

 

It all depends how damaged his mind was. Bastila says it was too damaged to fully restore his memories but we know that eventually he does regain them.

Implying some opportunistic selective recovery of his memories.

 

Was it programed to fill in what was missing(blank slate) or was it reprogramed to suppress the "Darth Revan" persona?

Both in a sort of way, fill in the blanks at first but the whole time supress the memories from coming back as long as posible, though they perhaps knew one day Revan would remember.

 

<bervity (source)>

Another nice catch.

[deathdisco]

As far as the state of Revan's damaged mind, I go with what was explained in game.

Especially since Drew Karpyshyn was the lead writer. In reference to his "Dynasty of Evil" book Drew blogged:

So, if you haven't read the book I'll just state that I am a proponent of the reliable narrator. If the narrator tells you something, you can believe it. I don't try to trick the reader; I won't lie to you in the narrator's voice. Keep that in mind and the ending should be clear.

 

I'm only pointing out that what's been established after the fact(retcon), casts the actions of the the Jedi masters in a different light.

 

Can you imagine the scene on top of the Rakatan temple summit with Bastila if she had said 'oh, BTW you memories were fine. The Jedi Council just decided to make you their B****!'

:firemad:

[Brin_Londo5]

If you played Kotor,

 

Don't even go there, my wife complained when I had to buy a newer copy of KotOR because the original play disc was so scratched up I couldn't use it to reinstall, I'd played it so often.

 

then you would know that they hinted that they wiped his memory and gave him a pet one. Remember in Revelations? I do know that Revan did take a serious blow during that attack, but it never really did any permanent damage, as TSL states when Revan remembers the Unknown Threat

 

Which, except for one throw-away line by Malak, who (like Kreia) wasn't there, is entirely Kreia's word, she of the self-contradictory statements, habitual lies, and bald-faced proclamations about multiple things that she herself was not there for.

To quote my post in the "A message for Bioware: Please think of the TSL fans" thread: that's the thing that drives me up the wall about the TSL crowd, they KNOW that Kreia lies about EVERYTHING, and yet they treat her words (no matter how self-contradictory they are) as if they descended from the heavens on fifty-foot stone slabs with flaming writing inscribed upon them, direct from Canon heaven. Mind you, my wording was a bit harsh, but it remains essentially true, Kreia's an utter nutcase (albeit a seemingly sane-appearing one at first glance), yet to the more fanatical TSL gamers she's always truthful, apparently, even when she's tellimg bald-faced lies.

 

 

Well, its TSL which inspired people to mod Kotor in the 1st place. There was so much cut content that people wanted to restore it.

 

Wrong, modders were modding KotOR before that, mods like Revan's Mask and Revan's Mask +, Segan Whynds Sabers, the Carth Romance Fix, and other mods, long before TSLRCM was a twinkle in the communities eyes.

 

I personally like TSL because it is dark. More suited for the older age group. You need to really listen in the game to understand.

 

Go ahead and Like it all you want, it doesn't change the fact that a lot of the retconned "facts" you guys grip so tightly to happen to be based on the words of a (fictional) madwoman with a penchant for grandiose statements and pathological lies.

 

As for your assumption on my age, let me just say I've been paying taxes since the mid 1980's, so apparently the "older age group" is in their late 50's and 60's.

[Alexrd]

I personally like TSL because it is dark. More suited for the older age group.

 

How are these two statements related?

[Ghost]

<snipped>

 

Which, except for one throw-away line by Malak, who (like Kreia) wasn't there, is entirely Kreia's word, she of the self-contradictory statements, habitual lies, and bald-faced proclamations about multiple things that she herself was not there for.

 

You are basing that entirely off opinion. Kreia is Kreia. She played an important role in TSL. If you are as blind, immature, and stupid as you show, then you obviously never understood TSL. The game was a learning experience, not a happy happy joy joy kids event.

 

To quote my post in the "A message for Bioware: Please think of the TSL fans" thread: that's the thing that drives me up the wall about the TSL crowd,

 

Why? What did they do to you? You can't change people's opinions of TSL. Just because you hate it doesn't give you the right to make fun and downgrade those who like it

 

Kreia lies about EVERYTHING. Kreia's an utter nutcase (albeit a seemingly sane-appearing one at first glance)

 

That's fine. Source of your information?

 

Wrong, modders were modding KotOR before that, mods like Revan's Mask and Revan's Mask +, Segan Whynds Sabers, the Carth Romance Fix, and other mods, long before TSLRCM was a twinkle in the communities eyes.

 

Well, yes people modded Kotor before, but TSL had so much cut content, it inspired MORE modders to mod for Kotor and TSL. So before you say I'm wrong, look at other people's posts, say LoH in DeadlyStream. He gathered information about the Mods for TSL. link

 

and yet they treat her words (no matter how self-contradictory they are) as if they descended from the heavens on fifty-foot stone slabs with flaming writing inscribed upon them, direct from Canon heaven.

 

<snipped> Further note, you continue responding to posters like this and you won't be welcome here -- j7

 

Mind you, my wording was a bit harsh

 

Well Well Well, truth after all.

 

yet to the more fanatical TSL gamers she's always truthful, apparently, even when she's tellimg bald-faced lies.

 

Hmm, when I played, I noticed most of what she says is partially lies. But she also tells the truth. That was her purpose.

 

Go ahead and Like it all you want, it doesn't change the fact that a lot of the retconned "facts" you guys grip so tightly to happen to be based on the words of a (fictional) madwoman with a penchant for grandiose statements and pathological lies.

 

If she's mad then why do people call her very wise? Because she very much so teaches things that you learn in real life. Sure she lies sometimes, but that is part of the plot. If she told the truth 24/7, then there would be nothing to reveal further ingame, and would ruin the rest of the game.

 

As for your assumption on my age, let me just say I've been paying taxes since the mid 1980's, so apparently the "older age group" is in their late 50's and 60's.

 

<snipped>

 

How are these two statements related?

 

They are opinions, I stated them just to prove my point

[TKA-001]

That's fine. Source of your information?

Maybe the ****ing game? Just an idea.

 

If you two are going to argue about this, you should cite actual examples from said ****ing game, else you're both blowing hot air around.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

I promised myself to keep away from these discussion since a good time ago. Simply because the lack of news regarding the franchise led me to think we'd run out of issues regarding the games and we'd be running around in vicious circles. It seems I was right, just posting to rectify what seems to be intentionally spread misinformation.

Well, yes people modded Kotor before, but TSL had so much cut content, it inspired MORE modders to mod for Kotor and TSL. So before you say I'm wrong, look at other people's posts, say LoH in DeadlyStream. He gathered information about the Mods for TSL. link

With all due respect to LoH and his mods, all his team's work did was broadening the possibilities. Long before him, modders were already on their hard work of changing the games without the fancy tools we have today but the original Fred Tetra's toolset. And some of the most inspired mods date from that time.

[Brin_Londo5]

I wasn't trying to insult everyone who likes TSL, just the ones who seem to take Obsidians retcons of the events portrayed in the original KotOR as somehow higher canon than the KotOR creators actual in-game statements.

 

C'mon, guys, remember, this is Kreia's statements I'm talking about, and she wasn't even there for 99% of the stuff she's preaching on. It's like taking a hobo in Kansas's word about the Dalai Lama over that of people who'd actually met the guy.

 

I'd rather take Bastilla and the Jedi council's word over the words of Kreia as to what happened, seeing as how they were there and she wasn't.

[Ghost]

I believe he knows that. Doesn't keep anyone from answering you, though.

 

Yes, I know. I just responded to their posts.

 

I wasn't trying to insult everyone who likes TSL, just the ones who seem to take Obsidians retcons of the events portrayed in the original KotOR as somehow higher canon than the KotOR creators actual in-game statements.

 

There is no such thing as "higher canon" actually, Everything is equally canon And Obsidian does not "retcon" as you say things. They added their own story, because they felt Kotor needed a plot that was original, not the same thing we see every time in the movies.

 

C'mon, guys, remember, this is Kreia's statements I'm talking about, and she wasn't even there for 99% of the stuff she's preaching on

 

If she wasn't there, then how does she know so much about the Mandalorian Wars or the Jedi Civil War? Not even the Jedi Historians knew what really happened out there. This is where the Kae/Kreia theory comes in. And, actually, this topic is supposed to be on Revan and Malak, not Kreia.

 

I'd rather take Bastilla and the Jedi council's word over the words of Kreia as to what happened, seeing as how they were there and she wasn't.

 

Actually, Bastila and the Jedi Council never entered the Mandalorian Wars, they just sat on their chairs and "meditated" on what to do like imbeciles, which is one of the reasons why Kreia hates the Jedi, for their arrogance and lack of knowledge and action. The Jedi Council did not do much action in the JCW. They weren't on the front lines, and Bastila was only in a few battles. Kreia also worked in secret on Malachor with her two apprentices, Nihilus and Sion. But she had someway of knowing what happened during the JCW. If not, then how did she tell the player so much on what happened during when the player was travelling during his/her exile?

[TKA-001]

There is no such thing as "higher canon" actually, Everything is equally canon

Look up what you're talking about before you talk about it.

 

Not even the Jedi Historians knew what really happened out there.

What information do you base this conclusion on?

 

Actually, Bastila and the Jedi Council never entered the Mandalorian Wars, they just sat on their chairs and "meditated" on what to do like imbeciles,

Recently (by which I mean half a year ago) debunked by the comic Knights of the Old Republic 42: Masks, which shows that Revan's Jedi were actually supported by the Council and their followers basically from the beginning (after the Order learned about what had happened to Cathar).

[Ghost]

Look up what you're talking about before you talk about it.

 

Oh but I did. What I ment was theres canon and theres non-canon, and then theres fanon.

 

What information do you base this conclusion on?

 

The fact that they only followed them so far, that they never really knew what happened at Malachor.

 

Recently (by which I mean half a year ago) debunked by the comic Knights of the Old Republic 42: Masks, which shows that Revan's Jedi were actually supported by the Council and their followers basically from the beginning (after the Order learned about what had happened to Cathar).

 

Hmm, from what I read the Order did not follow them. They wanted to "asses" the threat. In the Mando wars, it was the Revanchists, not the Order, which supported the Republic during the war. The Revanchists had to act on their own, or so I heard, because The Order did not follow Revan to the Unknown did they? Nor Malachor, or Serroco? I base my information from what I learned from the games, the comics, etc.

[TKA-001]

The fact that they only followed them so far, that they never really knew what happened at Malachor.

Can you be even slightly more specific about where this fact comes from?

 

I base my information from what I learned from the games, the comics, etc.

We have the comics confirming that the Jedi Crusaders were supported by the rest, but you're saying that they weren't?

[Ghost]

Didn't Kotor and Kotor 2 say that the Jedi did not send the rest into the unknown? The battle of Malachor was fought with those loyal to Revan. Some of the Revanchists who were still loyal to the council were stategically sacrificed for Revan's sake. The party members in both games, Bastila and Atton say that the Jedi did not send their party, rather Revan recruited them.

[TKA-001]

The battle of Malachor was fought with those loyal to Revan.

Talk to HK-47 in TSL with high influence. He'll tell you that the majority of the Republic people at Malachor were people who were not loyal to Revan.

[adamqd]

Oh but I did. What I ment was theres canon and theres non-canon, and then theres fanon.

 

 

 

 

Actually there is G-Canon, C-Canon, T-Canon, Non-Canon, and Fanon... and I think there's a Jae Onasi canon, but that one makes my Brain hurt

[Jae Onasi]

Actually there is G-Canon, C-Canon, T-Canon, Non-Canon, and Fanon... and I think there's a Jae Onasi canon, but that one makes my Brain hurt

That's right, we can't forget Jae-canon.

[Brin_Londo5]

That's right, we can't forget Jae-canon.

 

Just as long as there's not Ion-Canon, I'd hate to have to rebuild this rig after spending all the cash to build it in the first place...

[Darth Avlectus]

^^^I believe that's actually spelled cannon.

 

Making high voltage generators for producing ions isn't difficult, but can be expensive and dangerous. It may also require any of several other devices or means to achieve your intended aim.

 

Pyro arc devices are fun to make, and you only need a CRT television that has nothing functionally wrong except that the tube is dead. --And someone who 1) knows whut tha flock they're doin', and 2) likes to light things on fire.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

^^^I believe that's actually spelled cannon.

If it was this kind of cannon. You certainly know it's canon as in short for canonic, dear GTA.

[Darth Avlectus]

If it was this kind of cannon. You certainly know it's canon as in short for canonic, dear GTA.

 

Indeed.

 

Though I do know how to build at least some ion emitting electrical devices IRL. Voltage magnifiers are actually fairly simple.

 

[HK-47]Cautionary: Master, I should warn you that any attempt at building such said device is entirely at your own risk of damage to your own person, persons around you, and potentially all other devices within an affected vicinity.

 

Commentary: Personally I would rather enjoy a barrage of electrical energy frying and killing all nearby organics--except for you of course.[/HK-47]

[Sir Vougalot]

Well, isn't there that one mention by canderous in K1 that it hadn't originally been the mandalorians' idea to attck? Shem brought up some pictures of it some time back... Something about a mention of ancient sith that sealed themselves away from the galaxy after the war started. Still could have been idealist remnants, as that vader-malak-esque guy in the Deceived trailer looked to be still pretty human.

 

True, but I think there's a good chance that Bioware may have had the remnants of Exar Kun's Sith in mind at the time. We know from various sources that some of these Sith survived into the time of the Jedi Civil War and were integrated into Revan's Sith Empire (Darth Sion being one of them). Their numbers may have been stretched thin at that time, but it's very possible that there were enough of them left over during the Mandalorian Wars to have still posed as significant threat.

 

At least at the time the game was produced, that is. They may very well be retconning that line to refer to this enigmatic faction that sprung from those who fled the Great Hyperspace War, whom Kriea dubs the "true Sith." There's a strong possibility that this will prove to be true, but I've always highly doubted that Bioware had these "true Sith" in mind when writing the first game.

[Lord Foley]

Avellone's vision was one which is incompatible with the rest of established Star Wars, so his vision of in-universe morality and how the Force works being invalidated is nothing if not a blessing for the continuity. That said, I'm not pleased that basic events of the previous story are being mucked up (TOR has pissed on previously established good canon literally from the first second of its inception); what I am saying is that the more doubt there is thrown on the ideas that Avellone's Fixer Sue stand-ins (Kreia, Canderous, HK-47, Atton, et cetera) peddled to us in TSL, the better. The story was good; its intended message was not.

 

Not gonna lie, I have a really hard time understanding your distaste for the portrayal of Revan in The Sith Lords. I really liked the character development of The Sith Lords, including the sort of inside story on Revan. You might think I'm just a fanboy eating up the idea of an edgy Dark Side hero, but I certainly don't think Revan was some kind of exceptional guy. What you need to bear in mind is that everything you hear about Revan in TSL comes from his friends- of course they're going to try to justify his actions. I thought it was very cool, sort of "So this is how the bad guys think of themselves," not "OMG Revan was Übersith!" In my opinion, the portrayal of Revan in TSL is vastly superior to one where they all just say "He done turned to the Dark Side!"

 

This whole secret Sith Empire was legitimately retarded from the beginning, but Revan being in on it is even moreso. If they want to try to weave every story into one overarching cliché, they're free to do so, but there is honestly no chance I will buy this game. Revan was not the sort of person who would defy the Jedi Council just to find someone new to bow to. The guy went with his gut and didn't like to be told what to do. But of course, this fits him perfectly into the generic evil guy slot- "If I'm bad I'll side with the bad guys lol!" No personal characteristics or motives in play- you're either a Jedi or a Sith and randomly generated name.

[Gurges-Ahter]

I've just read through all of the posts, and I think there are some legit, eloquently (and some not-so-eloquently) worded arguments and criticisms against this direction that TOR is taking the Revan storyline. However, I was much relieved by the second posting from Daniel Erickson that Fazzz provided where he basically told us all just wait and see, and that the Revan storyline is in good hands because it's in the hands that created it in the first place. It was what I thought at first when I read the first post in this thread, and lost that viewpoint after reading some of the outrage from other posters. Now I'm back on track - they might totally screw it up or piss people off, but I'm reserving judgment for later because we don't really know anything at this point.

[TKA-001]

This whole secret Sith Empire was legitimately retarded from the beginning, but Revan being in on it is even moreso. If they want to try to weave every story into one overarching cliché, they're free to do so, but there is honestly no chance I will buy this game. Revan was not the sort of person who would defy the Jedi Council just to find someone new to bow to. The guy went with his gut and didn't like to be told what to do.

We have only Kreia's inflated opinion of her star pupil to base this on. Revan got no legitimate character development whatsoever in TSL. Furthermore, I'm neither very surprised nor displeased by this "new development".

 

That Revan became a Sith as a direct result of running into the Sith in the Unknown Regions is a concept that tons of people already believed anyway. Besides, it takes Revan's awesomeness down a few notches in the best way possible - I guess he wasn't completely true to himself all along, after all (if the idea's that distasteful then you can just say he began his own agenda after being sent back to known space by the Sith, anyway, so nothing is actually lost). TOR may be ****ing up previously established canon, but at least it's not being discriminatory about it; the rain falls on the just and on the unjust, as they say.