MI2:SE sloppyness like in MI:SE?

[Zak McKracken]

I wanted to jump in here for a minute if I could.

 

As many of you may remember I had strong feelings towards the special edition last summer and because of it I'm not really looking forward to this with baited breath.

 

Does this make me a horrible person because I don't worship the thought of another special edition? No. I'm a fan who grew up with the games and I strongly feel if you're going to remake something that is considered a classic, you do it with the care and respect that it deserves.

 

And I didn't see much of that with the special edition.

 

Now, before you jump on me that doesn't mean I don't respect the initiative and effort put into it. It was a ballsy move. But the developers didn't seem to understand the spirit or tone of the original or they just didn't care. There was bad art, bad over the top voice overs and a horrible control scheme. All of this could have easily fixed had there been more care and effort put into it.

 

I will honestly give it a fair shake and buy it when it comes out but I have to be honest I'm shuddering at the cartoony art and bad voice overs that I foresee because I just don't think they "understood it" which worries me greatly because Monkey 2 is kind of a dark game in style and spirit and should be treated as such.

 

Can you imagine Largo talking with effeminate stereotyped voice just because he wears a bra? Unfortunately, I can.

[SyntheticGerbil]

Either way Fealiks, getting a special edition of a game well liked is no where equal at all to receiving a bag of money. Money isn't something you play and it's not a form of media or art. Money is meant to be spent, it's ephemeral in nature, so if the bills are wrinkled it's a moot point.

 

Anyways, there's no reason to bag on people in a subjective thread you have no intention of agreeing with. This is a thread about the sloppiness in the Special Editions and that's all it's ever going to be about, you can talk about it with an opposing opinion without resorting to "**** off, good day sir, you are all ungrateful."

 

I never thought The Simpsons episodes that were done that way looked too horrible...But then again, I'm not a professional I guess.

 

Sure I could agree with Gerbil, they could have called for more detailed 2 frame animations. And I was one of the ones arguing with the poll, that I wasnt that excited for MI2SE in the first place. But, I think that like we said, on technical terms, this way makes alot more sense. Also, this whole thread is pretty much the reason game developers stick with 3D.

 

Not that the Simpsons is a good example of well thought out design and amazing animation, but you will notice the animation got much more bland and predictable after the first three seasons. The show was much more dynamic early on with characters twisting their shapes and contorting their faces to their attitude, taking advantage of the medium. Season 4 is exactly when they made their switch from an American animation house to an outsourced Asian one.

 

Also most animated shows, if not all (besides Adult Swim shows which require next to no animation), are farmed out to Korea or India, not Singapore. Either way, it's an easy way to not have to pay Americans to do animation and save some money, but it always comes with the detriment of having to work with an art/animation team overseas who either doesn't care about your project because they work on like 5 different outsourced things a week for chump change or they do care and have a hard time collaborating with someone an ocean apart. Having everyone in the same office or studio always works wonders. Of course, all of this is a problem with the United States, not necessarily LucasArts, but unlike animation, video games tend to have a lower outsourcing rate.

 

Now I'm not saying outsourcing is always wrong, but you'll notice no one outsources to the UK or anywhere in Europe for their skill and knowledge in animation (France and the UK really do wonders to have good schools and put out great work). It's all about paying people less for roughly the same amount of work, not necessarily equal in quality. I can see it as good in cases like Uncharted 2 where they simply did not have enough people to finish the game on time, with their 90 person studio staff rushing overtime to finish, so they had to outsource some environments out. Outsourcing should be a last resort, not a first resort.

 

Anyways, I'm not asking for more detailed animations, because the things are already drawn very detailed already. I'm asking for a better sense of animation poses with the frames they have. Also a better idea of good character design would be nice, but then again the first time around the concept art looked good, and unfortunately I doubt the concept people are the ones doing the finished work. The top frame is just an example of laziness, yes, but it's not a major one, so I'm not bothered. I'm just hoping it's not another sign of things to come.

 

To block out the job done on the first Special Edition and Lucidity (as well as EMI, Full Throttle 2, and Sam and Max Freelance Police before if you want) and expect everyone to remain readily optimistic for every new remake and announcement is kind of silly.

 

The problem is that LucasArts hired a couple of 3D animators and let the background artists do the 2D animations.

 

And Monkey Mania has a point here. This is a major part of the problem with the first SE, even though I know some would disagree. Making ugly basic 3D models of the characters for 2D artists to draw over in an ill fated attempt to stay "on-model" almost never ends well in any form of animation. When you learn to animate or draw characters, ideally you shouldn't ever need 3D reference, just as everyone did in the industry 95% of the last century. There's no reason these 2D games need to have 3D reference. You can just look at Braid and Boy and his Blob which are recent digitally painted releases, neither which have a major amount of frames going on (Boy and His Blob is pretty choppy sometimes and Braid has sparse animation), which did well without some sort of 3D basis. To me, the fact that Lucasarts used this method either says their art team is not strong enough to figure out how to animate well by themselves (and using the frames already made for the original game to boot) or that they somehow did it to ensure they were cutting corners. Either way is not ideal compared to hiring people who can both draw and animate well on their own.

 

The good thing is, without really seeing a bunch of sprite rips and closes ups of the new SE, I can say it appears the characters don't look like they were modeled in 3D first this time around. Also seeing the governer of Phatt Island actually drawn out and finished from concept art as well as a few of the other character concept pages make me think they are doing it the right way this time and losing the extra step of tracing 3D models. This is one thing that has made me hopeful. Even if some of the characters look bland, it's a step in the right direction.

[Jake]

I thought LucasArts specifically said that MI2:SE was going to have higher framerate animation, with more frames than the original game. You can see it, or something resembling it, in the character walk cycles on the website.

[MusicallyInspired]

Personally, I find it very ironic that the same people bashing the SE's also defend the original game's art to the death. I can't get past it lol.

 

And yes, it said something to the effect of "animation feature quality."

[SyntheticGerbil]

Yes, to think the original two Monkey Island games had good art direction is ironic. Sorry for that.

 

I know this is because games can't possibly look good in 320x200 resolution. It's a well known fact that both Steve Purcell and Peter Chan can neither draw nor paint.

 

No way could a game from 1991 have good art direction like a game from 2009:

 

Everything before the year 2000 looks like this if not in 3D, so art direction is a new invention:

 

Also this recent quote may be the first time I've ever heard Steve Purcell say anything remotely negative publicly:

Nope. Never heard a thing about it until everybody else did. Glad it's being released again but not crazy about the repaint of the cover. Makes it look like a Lego game. Why not just do something new instead?

[Kroms]

There's going to be some images of Scabb Island posted today. How about we leave the complaining till then? (Hopefully you'll all manage to do it without the Comic Book Guy style "THE MONKEY'S EXPRESSION IS ALL WRONG!!!!!" complaints.)

[Monkey Mania]

There's going to be some images of Scabb Island posted today. How about we leave the complaining till then? (Hopefully you'll all manage to do it without the Comic Book Guy style "THE MONKEY'S EXPRESSION IS ALL WRONG!!!!!" complaints.)

 

Where? Are they new?

[Kroms]

Apparently! I found out from Facebook.

[Fealiks]

Anyways, there's no reason to bag on people in a subjective thread you have no intention of agreeing with. This is a thread about the sloppiness in the Special Editions and that's all it's ever going to be about, you can talk about it with an opposing opinion without resorting to "**** off, good day sir, you are all ungrateful."

 

Hey, at least I'm being sincere. I can't stand the sarcastic, bitchy bull**** that goes on in this type of thread. "Oh yes, I'm sure the art direction isn't terrible! Excuse me while I go to the doctor and get my opinion fixed since you're obviously right and my voice should be silenced! Nazi!" Shut the **** up.

 

I hate the much-overused "oh, I'm not allowed to have an opinion?!" defence... It's insanely hypocritical, manipulative and childish. I stand by my opinion that by complaining till the cows come home about a game that we've seen a hanfull of images from is ungrateful and cynical. It pisses me off to no end.

[Nickelstein]

Hey, at least I'm being sincere. I can't stand the sarcastic, bitchy bull**** that goes on in this type of thread. "Oh yes, I'm sure the art direction isn't terrible! Excuse me while I go to the doctor and get my opinion fixed since you're obviously right and my voice should be silenced! Nazi!" Shut the **** up.

 

I hate the much-overused "oh, I'm not allowed to have an opinion?!" defence... It's insanely hypocritical, manipulative and childish. I stand by my opinion that by complaining till the cows come home about a game that we've seen a hanfull of images from is ungrateful and cynical. It pisses me off to no end.

 

So no complaining till the game comes out? Fair enough, yeah, I think I can wrap my head around that. However since you can stand by your opinion (and present it) why can't people with negative opinions do the same? Sure you can say that we should wait till the game comes out to complain but ain't that the same with positive opinions? Are people allowed to praise the game to no end even when it isn't released yet?

[Fealiks]

So no complaining till the game comes out? Fair enough, yeah, I think I can wrap my head around that. However since you can stand by your opinion (and present it) why can't people with negative opinions do the same? Sure you can say that we should wait till the game comes out to complain but ain't that the same with positive opinions? Are people allowed to praise the game to no end even when it isn't released yet?

 

You are allowed to have your opinions. I'm again categorically denying any opinion-thievery on my part. Your opinions are perfectly valid. The point I'm making is that we've seen hardly anything from the game so far, so it's stupid to complain about it already.

 

Also, I see nobody praising the game to no end, but that wouldn't be a problem. The art we've seen so far is good. The fact that people have to nitpick to find anything bad about it is a testament to that. Just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean it's terrible.

 

In fact, I'm going to post something I drew up ages ago to illustrate my point:

 

[Haggis]

Alright, we've made our points now, I think. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

 

As for the animation up there, I agree that it's sloppy, but fortunately the fans here will fix things. I must admit I'm not too fond of the art style they're going for in these special editions, but to each his own. I know I'll get the MI2 special edition the day it comes out, even though I haven't even finished the SMI one.

 

And Fealiks, you may not like people complaining, but as paying customers, they do have that right. If LucasArts were giving this game away, then you're right, nobody should look a gift horse in the mouth. But in this case, I'd compare it to a child wishing for a toy fire engine, and his parents give him a toy police car instead. The boy shouldn't complain, right? After all, he got something pretty cool, even if it isn't exactly what he wanted. And yet, he will be disappointed, no matter how cool that police car is, with sirens and lights, and even an actual cop behind the wheel! After he's played with it for a while though, he starts to appreciate his present for what it is: no fire engine, but still, pretty darn cool.

 

The same thing might happen with MI2:SE. I think a lot of Monkey Island fans have totally different views of how these special editions should look, but in the end, most of them will appreciate what they got from LucasArts: a pretty cool remake with new music, new art, and voicework. Many fans of classic games would actually be jealous of that.

[SyntheticGerbil]

Hey, at least I'm being sincere. I can't stand the sarcastic, bitchy bull**** that goes on in this type of thread. "Oh yes, I'm sure the art direction isn't terrible! Excuse me while I go to the doctor and get my opinion fixed since you're obviously right and my voice should be silenced! Nazi!" Shut the **** up.

 

I hate the much-overused "oh, I'm not allowed to have an opinion?!" defence... It's insanely hypocritical, manipulative and childish. I stand by my opinion that by complaining till the cows come home about a game that we've seen a hanfull of images from is ungrateful and cynical. It pisses me off to no end.

 

Defensive? Why would you come in here like a major whiner and start personally attacking everyone? How is that helpful? You're the most upset person in this entire thread.

 

Oh, and you invoked the word "Nazi" because you failed to make any sort of valid point. Since you are the first here to make use of Godwin's law upon failure of keeping a difference of opinion at least *somewhat* civil, you may want to keep your business in other threads, or maybe other forums then.

 

Also, I see nobody praising the game to no end, but that wouldn't be a problem. The art we've seen so far is good. The fact that people have to nitpick to find anything bad about it is a testament to that. Just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean it's terrible.

 

If this is what you want, perhaps you'd fit in better at Adventuregamers.com or Justadventure.com, because you sure don't seem to be appreciated here. I personally don't like you following me around in multiple threads in the past year or so making backhanded comments or routinely calling me an *******, so I wouldn't miss your presence.

 

And as stated before on the other thread I made, I'm more excited for this remake than the first one. I'm happy with the backgrounds (or what I've seen so far) this time around and will be buying it on PSN when it comes out. If other members are finding faults, it's not like it's invalid, because this is a publicly released game that is open for critique, even before play. We all know how the game is designed, so of course what we are going to focus on right now is the new art, animation, music, and sound that trickles down.

[Monkey Mania]

You have this silky smooth guybrush walk cycle, then you have this cut and paste 2 frame rubbish.

[Fealiks]

Defensive? Why would you come in here like a major whiner and start personally attacking everyone? How is that helpful? You're the most upset person in this entire thread.

 

Oh, and you invoked the word "Nazi" because you failed to make any sort of valid point. Since you are the first here to make use of Godwin's law upon failure of keeping a difference of opinion at least *somewhat* civil, you may want to keep your business in other threads, or maybe other forums then.

 

Actually, I used the word "Nazi" in a satirical fake quotation. Godwin's law is about people comparing small acts of evil to Nazism. The context I used it in has nothing to do with that - I was making fun of when people use the "leave my opinion alone" defence.

 

If you think I've failed to make a valid point, then I must not have made it properly, so here it is: If somebody argues with your opinion, you would usually have every right to act offended (within reason). If, however, your opinion is made abrasively and sarcastically, then claiming that your opponents are trying to silence your opinion is childish and a low-blow.

 

If this is what you want, perhaps you'd fit in better at Adventuregamers.com or Justadventure.com, because you sure don't seem to be appreciated here. I personally don't like you following me around in multiple threads in the past year or so making backhanded comments or routinely calling me an *******, so I wouldn't miss your presence.

 

I literally don't remember ever talking to you before now. I've seen you around before, but I'm pretty sure this is the only time I've ever actually spoken to you.

 

Also, if you look back through the thread, you'll see that you were the one who started arguing with me. And before you say anything, I've not got any problem with that - your argument was a rebuttal to mine and so it was perfectly valid, but I'm sure you'll agree that the fact that you chose to join this argument nullifies the use of any "stop arguing with me" defence.

 

If you're going to disagree with me, then do so sincerely and maturely. Stop the manipulative bitchiness and sarcasm, I can't be arsed with it. I'm being as blunt as I can because I'm tired of people trying to twist what I'm saying. If you're going to do that then you can quite frankly piss off.

 

And as stated before on the other thread I made, I'm more excited for this remake than the first one. I'm happy with the backgrounds (or what I've seen so far) this time around and will be buying it on PSN when it comes out. If other members are finding faults, it's not like it's invalid, because this is a publicly released game that is open for critique, even before play. We all know how the game is designed, so of course what we are going to focus on right now is the new art, animation, music, and sound that trickles down.

 

Of course there are faults, but that doesn't mean that the game is going to be bad. I find it really annoying when people act like it's the end of the world just because of a few pixels, managing to completely ignore all the other beautiful art, which, in my opinion, greatly outweighs any bad points.

[Nickelstein]

You are allowed to have your opinions. I'm again categorically denying any opinion-thievery on my part. Your opinions are perfectly valid. The point I'm making is that we've seen hardly anything from the game so far, so it's stupid to complain about it already.

 

Also, I see nobody praising the game to no end, but that wouldn't be a problem. The art we've seen so far is good. The fact that people have to nitpick to find anything bad about it is a testament to that. Just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean it's terrible.

In fact, I'm going to post something I drew up ages ago to illustrate my point:

 

 

Thats the same thing with having positive opinions. Its simply to early to deem this game a success or a failure. I remember when MI4 was getting previews all over the place and lots of the fans were positive (along with some skeptics) and when the game came out... well I'm not going to into that minefield but you get the idea. We just have to wait and see.

[Fealiks]

Thats the same thing with having positive opinions. Its simply to early to deem this game a success or a failure. I remember when MI4 was getting previews all over the place and lots of the fans were positive (along with some skeptics) and when the game came out... well I'm not going to into that minefield but you get the idea. We just have to wait and see.

 

That's a fair point, I suppose. In my opinion, though, the reason it's more inappropriate to say negative things about the game than it is to say positive things is that we've seen loads of brilliant art work and only a tiny amount of bad stuff (so tiny, in fact, that it had to be pointed out and explained before I even noticed it, but maybe that's just me)

[SyntheticGerbil]

Actually, I used the word "Nazi" in a satirical fake quotation. Godwin's law is about people comparing small acts of evil to Nazism. The context I used it in has nothing to do with that - I was making fun of when people use the "leave my opinion alone" defence.

 

No. Read please: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

 

If you think I've failed to make a valid point, then I must not have made it properly, so here it is: If somebody argues with your opinion, you would usually have every right to act offended (within reason). If, however, your opinion is made abrasively and sarcastically, then claiming that your opponents are trying to silence your opinion is childish and a low-blow.

 

What? Why should you get offended because someone is disagreeing with you? That's useless and it alienates people. This is just a video game. You must have called nearly everyone in this thread more names than Thunderpeel called you in his one post. You've repeatedly told everyone you disagree with to "**** off" or "piss off" and then do this half-hearted U-turn and act like somehow you've been civil the whole time? Scroll up a bit for me, please.

 

I'm not saying I'm perfect or that normal people are immune to getting upset when arguing, but I sure haven't seen it fit so far to release a slew of curse words and start name-calling people or questioning their personal character over something like this.

 

The weirdest thing about this is I also remember you being mildly critical of many things in the first remake. Why didn't you get this upset then?

 

I literally don't remember ever talking to you before now. I've seen you around before, but I'm pretty sure this is the only time I've ever actually spoken to you.

 

You're right, my apologies. That was someone else I got you confused with that I think is actually posting in this thread, but is not angry with me this time.

[Fealiks]

No. Read please: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

I wasn't using the word "Nazi" to make a point, my imaginary friend who was employed to take the piss out of people who do use the word "Nazi" to make a point was (I don't know if you missed that - go back and read my post if you don't know what I'm talking about). And anyway, Godwin's law is a joke and holds no real weight in an argument. It's like saying "Ha! You used an inaccurate analogy in your argument, and according to my mate Dave, that makes the entirety of what you said null and void! Good day!"

 

What? Why should you get offended because someone is disagreeing with you? That's useless and it alienates people. This is just a video game. You must have called nearly everyone in this thread more names than Thunderpeel called you in his one post. You've repeatedly told everyone you disagree with to "**** off" or "piss off" and then do this half-hearted U-turn and act like somehow you've been civil the whole time? Scroll up a bit for me, please.

I'm not "acting like I've been civil this whole time". I've been a complete c*nt, and I intend to continue acting as such - in fact, I even acknowledged in a previous post that I'm being blunt because it's the only way I can get my point across without being told off for pulling a half-hearted U-turn. Evidently, it didn't work very well.

 

I'm not saying I'm perfect or that normal people are immune to getting upset when arguing, but I sure haven't seen it fit so far to release a slew of curse words and start name-calling people or questioning their personal character over something like this.

 

Just because I used swear words doesn't automatically mean I'm being more unpleasant than you. In fact, I actually used swear words initially as a way of being less unpleasant. In my experience, "f*ck off" is a more humorous and light hearted way of telling someone you disagree with them, if nothing else because it's very earnest. You, on the other hand, have resorted to sarcasm to make all of your points. If it makes any difference, my generation tends to disregard the whole concept of "swear words" and their negative effects, so maybe my use of them has hit a nerve that I didn't intend to hit, and if so then I apologise.

 

The weirdest thing about this is I also remember you being mildly critical of many things in the first remake. Why didn't you get this upset then?

 

You might have me confused with somebody else because I don't remember being critical of the first remake.

 

That being said, you're right, I don't like one or two things in the first remake, but those one or two things aren't enough to bring the whole game down. The whole reason I'm annoyed with this thread is that people are taking one minor detail as an omen that the entire game is going to be unplayable. I have a massive problem with that. The people at Lucasarts have obviously put a lot of effort into these special editions, and the majority of the work they've done is fantastic. Just a few mistakes surely isn't enough to condemn them completely.

 

You're right, my apologies. That was someone else I got you confused with that I think is actually posting in this thread, but is not angry with me this time.

 

Ah, right you are. I thought you might have mistaken me for someone else with that.

[MusicallyInspired]

Why can't we just refrain from conversation about the game's art altogether (save the backgrounds that will be released) until after the game is out? Or at least until we see some video footage?

[Haggis]

And, for that matter, can we please refrain from this whole meta-conversation about the way this game is being discussed? May I suggest SyntheticGerbil and Fealiks get together for a nice cup of tea, kiss, and make up (preferably through Private Messages)? Let's keep this thread for the discussion of MI2:SE and its perceived sloppiness and/or greatness. Thank you!

[ThunderPeel2001]

Great! Thanks, Haggis. I think it's going to stink. But I sincerely hope I'm wrong. (Can I say that?)

[Haggis]

Great! Thanks, Haggis. I think it's going to stink. But I sincerely hope I'm wrong. (Can I say that?)

*checks rulebook* Yes, you can say that.

 

Actually, my feelings are rather similar. I wouldn't say that I think it's going to 'stink' per se, but SMI:SE didn't get me as excited as I hoped. I'd love to be proven wrong by LucasArts though!

[SyntheticGerbil]

Speaking of, does anyone have any word if maybe they are going to fix or update some of the sloppy graphical errors, bugs, or animation problems when the first Special Edition is released on PSN?

[ThunderPeel2001]

Highly unlikely, IMO.