Losing My Religion (LONG!!!)

[Alkonium]

Both, and by "the basics", you definitely hit the nail on the head.

 

I'm starting to think the problem isn't you, as much as it is your church. It seems to be that it's trying to stifle critical thinking, which is tantamount to anti-intellectualism. Are you certain that Christianity, or at the very least, your denomination of Christianity, is really right for you?

[stingerhs]

Would you believe that ever since I was an older child, about 9 or so, I've had doubts about Christianity in particular and God/religion in general? It was difficult for me (if not impossible) to just BELIEVE, like my friends at church and at school did (and like my adult church friends did, too) without worrying about the basics that I'd been taught. More than anything, I got the strong impression that once you first accepted the faith, you were supposed to believe these "basics" (salvation, sin, God and Jesus) as given truths and then move ONWARD and UPWARD. You weren't supposed to revisit the facts of the Plan of Salvation more than once--and that "once" was when you first invited Christ to come into your heart. It's like being in school. Once you had mastered the alphabet and were learning how to write (said my faith and church doctrine) it was absolutely ridiculous to go over the ABC's again.

 

The thing was, the "basics", the truths that were SUPPOSED to be simple and believable by all people for all time, were actually very hard and complicated for me (and not only as a child, either). My friends in Sunday School and at Youth Group didn't ask too many questions because THEY believed, and wholeheartedly. What was wrong with ME, I asked myself? Many people told me I thought too much and overanalyzed things. That may have been true, but then again, I've always been a deep thinker and an analyst (even of the "simple" things that 95% of the population has already dealt with and mastered). I TRIED to believe, JUST believe, and have a "childlike faith." That was what my church promoted as the best sort of faith, not the kind that ruminated over the "given" truths as well as the "higher" ones of the Bible.

 

During the day, I tried to believe and obey. At night, that poem haunted me.

 

Believe. Obey. Believe. Obey. These were the two core values that my church (and, I thought, Christianity in general) stuck to, hard and fast, like epoxy glue sticks to skin. Meanwhile, I struggled inwardly with romantic and sexual (lustful, my church and Christianity would say) feelings. I also scorned and laughed at those who did not believe as I did. The people who partied, and who sat at my lunch table? I sneered at them and what they did, while secretly wanting to be invited. I scoffed at the pregnant girls at my high school, priding myself on the fact that I was still a virgin while ignoring a very basic Christian concept: HUMILITY. This continued all the way through college, where I believed and obeyed, believed and obeyed, nothing more.

 

Until everything fell apart, and my doubts exploded right out of my chest.

 

(P.S. How do I know that epoxy glue sticks to skin? Painful experiences. )

you're not alone on that one. trying to understand the so-called basics is actually far more complicated than what most Christians would have you believe. i've found that a lot of Christians like to give you the "selling points" of the concepts and leave it at that. there's just so much more to salvation, sin, and who God is than you've probably been exposed to.

 

i'm not sure if you're actually looking for answers or if you're upset that you've had to put up with such ignorance for so long. however, if you are indeed looking for answers, i would highly recommend that you check out at least one of these three books:

 

Mere Christianity by CS Lewis

More Than a Carpenter by Josh and Sean McDowell

Kingdom Principles by Dr. Myles Monroe

 

the first two in particular were written by former atheists, and like you, they had to find God in their own way. those might be better choices to start with, but the last one can take you a lot deeper in terms of understanding how God relates to our world today.

 

hope that helps.

[jonathan7]

I will start with a quote from Ghandi...

 

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

 

Think about that, as I think it a very sad but accurate observation of a lot of the Church, which is not the way it should be....

 

On Hell: This is what I was taught about Hell in my church, at least.

 

http://www.losingmyreligion.com/essays/realityofhell.html

 

Well that was a stinking pile of poo, for starters how many times did he actual relate his various claims back to the Bible? It contains a lot of taught doctrine, all of which I think is erroneous. If you would really like me to dissect it I can, but if that is the general quality of sermon, I think finding a better pastor would be a good start; that whole thing was Conservative Evangelical Propaganda, and propaganda is usually used by fundamentalists...

 

I TRIED to believe, JUST believe, and have a "childlike faith." That was what my church promoted as the best sort of faith, not the kind that ruminated over the "given" truths as well as the "higher" ones of the Bible.

 

Paul also tells us to grow into faith and consider things, a couple of observations the Church has often been anti-intellectual and there is nothing wrong with the process you are going through, questions are GOOD.

 

Believe. Obey. Believe. Obey. These were the two core values that my church (and, I thought, Christianity in general) stuck to, hard and fast, like epoxy glue sticks to skin. Meanwhile, I struggled inwardly with romantic and sexual (lustful, my church and Christianity would say) feelings.

 

Everyone struggles with things such as this...

 

I also scorned and laughed at those who did not believe as I did. The people who partied, and who sat at my lunch table? I sneered at them and what they did, while secretly wanting to be invited. I scoffed at the pregnant girls at my high school, priding myself on the fact that I was still a virgin while ignoring a very basic Christian concept: HUMILITY. This continued all the way through college, where I believed and obeyed, believed and obeyed, nothing more.

 

More than humility, you lacked loved in the way you reacted to the above... Would Jesus of acted in that manner? No... It is also all to familiar in the way a lot of Christians relate to "non-Christians". In truth, back at school the two of us would not of got on... I have always been seen by other Christians as the "bad boy" Christian, in so far as I always hung around with the people most of the other people in the CU etc did the above to. But scoffing and looking down at people is not imitating Christ, it is acting like the Pharisees - and what did Jesus say about them? You have moved beyond that, which is good, but may I suggest not to judge Jesus by the way Christians act, or the doctrines they try say are from Jesus.

 

 

Until everything fell apart, and my doubts exploded right out of my chest.

 

My life has fell apart on a couple of occasions, but I have also found that I have grown most as a person in those times, and my faith has grown also.

 

I remember during the worst period of my life that Psalm 88 struck a particular cord with me;

 

1 LORD, you are the God who saves me;

day and night I cry out to you.

2 May my prayer come before you;

turn your ear to my cry.

 

3 I am overwhelmed with troubles

and my life draws near to death.

4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;

I am like one without strength.

5 I am set apart with the dead,

like the slain who lie in the grave,

whom you remember no more,

who are cut off from your care.

 

6 You have put me in the lowest pit,

in the darkest depths.

7 Your wrath lies heavily on me;

you have overwhelmed me with all your waves.[d]

8 You have taken from me my closest friends

and have made me repulsive to them.

I am confined and cannot escape;

9 my eyes are dim with grief.

 

I call to you, LORD, every day;

I spread out my hands to you.

10 Do you show your wonders to the dead?

Do their spirits rise up and praise you?

11 Is your love declared in the grave,

your faithfulness in Destruction[e]?

12 Are your wonders known in the place of darkness,

or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?

 

13 But I cry to you for help, LORD;

in the morning my prayer comes before you.

14 Why, LORD, do you reject me

and hide your face from me?

 

15 From my youth I have suffered and been close to death;

I have borne your terrors and am in despair.

16 Your wrath has swept over me;

your terrors have destroyed me.

17 All day long they surround me like a flood;

they have completely engulfed me.

18 You have taken from me friend and neighbor—

darkness is my closest friend.

 

Both, and by "the basics", you definitely hit the nail on the head.

 

I think "Christianity" is simple, and it has been made far to complex, in essence, love the Lord your God, with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself. I don't think that your pastor and some members of your church are doing the latter, I can't comment on the former.

 

Here is something I wrote a few years back you may additionally find helpful;

 

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Why I am a Christian...

 

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's famous fictional detective; Sherlock Holmes said "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?" The Athiest Philosopher David Hume said "A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence." Have you examined the evidence for the most important event in human history? Christianity has had a major impact on the world, both good and bad. Is Jesus just a big hoax or could the seemingly improbable be true?

 

Put simply the reason I am a Christian is because following the Sherlock Holmes quote I have eliminated all the impossible factors; the one improbable factor remaing must be the truth. This improbable factor is that Jesus did rise from the dead. It seems to me that no other conclusion from evidence can be the logical solution. Both Christian, Jewish and Roman sources agree on a few facts;

 

1. There was a man named Jesus performing a reported ministry of teaching, healing and miracles in first century Isreal.

2. That this man was crucified and that people reported seeing him after his death.

3. Then that the Church quickly grew even after their leaders death.

4. That diciples who had previously denied they followed Jesus then died for their belief that he had risen again.

5. Paul a man charged with murdering Christians, a man who hated them as fanatics, and was hunting them down suddenly became a Christian himself and a founding father of the Church.

(5a. and many theologians consider that Paul was most likely martyred for his belief in Jesus.) - What could cause Pauls dramatic turn-around?

 

These are facts that are reliable from Christian and non-Christian sources. If you were a disciple would you die for a lie? As if they hadn't seen him after death thats what they would be doing. What caused Paul to so dramatically change his ways? I would encourage you read a book by Lee Strobel called 'The Case for Christ' (http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307). It is by a law journalist who was an athiest and he puts the evidence through tests and ask many questions you may have. He talks to many foremost authorities on the various areas of Jesus life. His conclusion is improbable... caused him to become a Christian having examined all the evidence! I would encourage any who truly seek knowledge to read it for yourselves and see what you think! I do however have a slight criticism of the book, as I don't think he allows the atheists experts enough time in the book.

 

I hope that is helpful.

[Sabretooth]

Would you believe that ever since I was an older child, about 9 or so, I've had doubts about Christianity in particular and God/religion in general?

 

There's plenty of 9-year old or younger kids who've realised through observation and rational deduction that God is about as real as Santa Claus. I'm sorry to say, Tysy, but you're by no means the first person to doubt whether Christianity makes sense or no.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

I do not wish to offend the Christians in the room, several of whom I have a great deal of respect and admiration for.

 

However, I find it hard to swallow when in response to inquiries of faith that you would respond with letter and verse.

 

Who wrote this stuff? Really? A man did. A FLAWED man, if you believe in Original Sin.... (I could go on and on on that topic, if you like). Assuming that the writings are the true representation of God's will is not only not logical, it ignores history. Faith in God, a higher power, whatever, is not crazy, but taking the great religious texts of the world as anything more than food for thought is turning off your brain.

 

@stingerhs - excellent points about power and purpose. Control.

 

There are no chosen people. The Jews are not better than the Buddhists. Christians are not entitled to more than a Hindi. How could a Jain possibly go to hell?!?!?!?!?

Any pastor that tells you otherwise has an express ticket to HE-double-hockey-sticks. If God really felt that way, he would be imperfect. And a remarkable jackass.

[Sabretooth]

Christians are not entitled to more than a Hindi.

 

Yes, they are not entitled to more than a language, the scrawny little varmints.

[Tysyacha]

*snort* It took me a while to get that little joke, but I finally did. *LOL*

 

*snips the rest of the post* Whew. I got a load off my mind, or at least my emotions. However, I decided to clean up my Internet equivalent of puking--or weeping--or both.

 

Today was a hard day.

[jonathan7]

If you want to ban me for this post, go ahead. It's just that with everybody else around me, EVERYBODY else, wanting me to live the "I'm completely happy and absolutely nothing's wrong in my life" way, especially with Jesus

Christianity/God/religion and church doctrine, I have nowhere else to turn.

 

Tysyacha

 

Ty, why on earth would you get banned for this? I'm just very sad that things have reached this point, and I'm sorry that there is little I can say to console you on everything that has taken place.

 

1) "Man, Tys, your theories are all wrong and false. You're messed up, too."

-1) You may be right on both counts, but that brings me no comfort now.

 

I don't think there is any correlation between theories being wrong and and an individual being "messed up" - though I would ask which of us isn't messed up? Regardless some of the individuals I've counciled with depression see the world most clearly.

 

2) "Quit your b*tching."

-2) I've tried. I can't fake being happy anymore, or saying everything's fine.

 

From a psychological stand point the release is a must, bottling is bad for an individual, I'm sorry you can't express this to individuals in the flesh.

 

3) "It's not God's fault all this crap has happened to you. It's your fault."

-3) If it's my fault, then how can I fix it? I've been trying to for 8 mo. now.

 

Ty, none of this is your fault, in the book of Job none of what happens to him is his fault. Is the murder victim at fault for being murdered? The answer is un-equivocally no.

 

 

4) "You suck."

 

You really don't...

 

5) "Why are you so depressed?"

-5) You just skipped to the end of this outpouring of pain, didn't you?

 

Theres nothing wrong with being upset....

[Tysyacha]

*hug* Thanks. I'll most probably come up with more coherent-sounding questions later.

[Jae Onasi]

Would you believe that ever since I was an older child, about 9 or so, I've had doubts about Christianity in particular and God/religion in general?

Every reasonable person has doubts from time to time.

It was difficult for me (if not impossible) to just BELIEVE, like my friends at church and at school did (and like my adult church friends did, too) without worrying about the basics that I'd been taught.

A lot of those people had doubts, too--they just never expressed it to anyone else.

 

More than anything, I got the strong impression that once you first accepted the faith, you were supposed to believe these "basics" (salvation, sin, God and Jesus) as given truths and then move ONWARD and UPWARD. You weren't supposed to revisit the facts of the Plan of Salvation more than once--and that "once" was when you first invited Christ to come into your heart. It's like being in school. Once you had mastered the alphabet and were learning how to write (said my faith and church doctrine) it was absolutely ridiculous to go over the ABC's again.

Well, I can see building on the basics, but why quit studying Jesus? He's kind of the guy that put 'Christ' into 'Christianity', after all.

 

 

The thing was, the "basics", the truths that were SUPPOSED to be simple and believable by all people for all time, were actually very hard and complicated for me (and not only as a child, either).

The events and basics are pretty basic. The underlying theology is extremely complex--so much so that many, many books have been written on it. Some things are harder for some people to grasp than others. People who have a loving father 'get' the concept of the Loving Father far more easily than someone with an abusive or absent father. Also, don't confuse 'feeling' faith with 'having' faith. Too many people think "I don't feel my faith, therefore I don't have faith."

 

My friends in Sunday School and at Youth Group didn't ask too many questions because THEY believed, and wholeheartedly. What was wrong with ME, I asked myself?

Well, first of all, not too many teens have matured physically and mentally enough to have completely developed critical thinking skills, so I expect teens to kind of go along with whatever's said.

 

Some people 'get' faith easier. I have to work at it.

 

Also, why is it wrong to ask questions? Why would God not want you to find out more about Him? Job had lots of questions for God, and some very hard ones. The disciples asked Jesus questions all the time. Christ even asked God why He had forsaken him while on the cross. There's no 11th Commandment called "Thou shalt not ask questions". A church that actively suppresses questioning is a church I avoid like the plague.

Many people told me I thought too much and overanalyzed things. That may have been true, but then again, I've always been a deep thinker and an analyst (even of the "simple" things that 95% of the population has already dealt with and mastered).

That's because they either didn't know the answer themselves, were too uncomfortable to explore the answer with you, or just didn't want to deal with it.

 

 

I TRIED to believe, JUST believe, and have a "childlike faith." That was what my church promoted as the best sort of faith, not the kind that ruminated over the "given" truths as well as the "higher" ones of the Bible.

Did Augustine avoid ruminating over the given/higher truths in the Bible? No. Did C. S. Lewis avoid ruminating over given/higher truths? No. Did Christ avoid ruminating over higher truths? No, in fact He forced His disciples to think about some very hard truths with His parables and stories.

 

 

 

Believe. Obey. Believe. Obey. These were the two core values that my church (and, I thought, Christianity in general) stuck to, hard and fast, like epoxy glue sticks to skin.

They left out the love part, which is kind of depressing.

 

Meanwhile, I struggled inwardly with romantic and sexual (lustful, my church and Christianity would say) feelings.

Well, welcome to the land of hormonal teen (and not so teen) horny feelings. God doesn't say "Don't have those feelings!" God says "Don't screw around". There's a difference. The first is part of the hormone makeup God made that allows us to procreate. The action (screwing around) is a problem because it spreads sexually transmitted disease (particularly at a time when there were no antibiotics or anti-virals to treat those diseases) and causes pregnancy outside of the intended setting. And on a slightly irreverent note, thank God for masturbation.

I also scorned and laughed at those who did not believe as I did. The people who partied, and who sat at my lunch table? I sneered at them and what they did, while secretly wanting to be invited. I scoffed at the pregnant girls at my high school, priding myself on the fact that I was still a virgin while ignoring a very basic Christian concept: HUMILITY.

Welcome to the imperfection club. I have a piece of humble pie to share with you. It's pretty tasty, fortunately, because I've had to eat a lot of it myself.

 

This continued all the way through college, where I believed and obeyed, believed and obeyed, nothing more.

Until everything fell apart, and my doubts exploded right out of my chest.

Yeah, that happened to me in college. It took me awhile to get it all sorted again.

 

(P.S. How do I know that epoxy glue sticks to skin? Painful experiences. )

I managed to glue my fingers together one time when I was a kid.

One of my patients tried to use epoxy glue to glue on her false eyelashes. This was not a wise move on her part.

[Darth Avlectus]

I'm not sure how to specifically respond to this OP. I have let go most of bible passages I have read.

 

Yes, I know one of the troubling things about religion is that there are things that contradict such as you pointed out.

 

Sometimes the best way to go about your faith is to find the answers for yourself. If you cannot find them in a church, maybe somewhere else?

 

Everyone goes through doubts. People question faith more than you might imagine.

 

It's difficult to develop one's sense of self sustaining while reliant on something else like a church--just my opinion. However, if church is all you know, I can only suggest you maybe see what it's like without church. For a time at least. Being alone, you will have the chance to examine and search within and without. However, I am not you, so I can't tell you the way. You must decide for yourself.

 

Recognize that this a a chance to develop your character. You must ask yourself what it means to be true to yourself.

 

I did. I went away from faith because I wanted answers.

 

After my time of no faith, I eventually came back to faith in something more because although there is no 'proof' that is scientifically testable, when I see things accomplished that are improbable if not otherwise impossible, it does seem to imply that there is still something to be drawn upon. Given that some will argue for the idea that nothing more exists, they're still arguing for it when it is/should be ultimately nothing. To me that implies something more is there. "No proof for it, therefore it must be false" is the fallacy called argument from ignorance. It cuts both ways and ultimately goes nowhere.

 

Personally I could not forgive myself. For Things that had happened, as well as things I had done. So I needed to find a way to learn how. Let's just say the alternative if I didn't was the ultimate of grim consequences if I did not change. This is simplifying things, perhaps cryptically so, but it is the ultimate point of all that.

 

Since then I've seen and done many things, much I regret. However I am not making the same mistakes that I once did--even if some of those things were not entirely my fault. This is an important lesson to learn. To truly be a changed person you act upon what you learn from mistakes.

 

I did indulge. Much. You know what? Nearly all of it has left a bitter taste in my mouth one way or another.

 

If there is any one thing relevant to your conundrum: Being faithful does not necessarily mean you follow unquestioningly. Be true and find the answers. Nobody else can do that for you in your life but you.

 

We are our own worst enemies. In so many ways. Just living life day to day is a challenge. Finding one's way, drive and purpose is something essential. Even if you struggle with what that is. Some can sit idly by because they don't care too much--just cruising by because that works for them. Others find their purpose and live it proudly. I'm in between these, personally. So are many people.

 

There is nothing wrong with it that you have not found your way in the church. Just remain true to yourself and try to enjoy life's adventure any way you can.

 

 

EDIT: OK, I see where the above could be misinterpreted or where I maybe could have been clearer. I'll try my best.

 

1) Learning for yourself: Be honest with yourself and others in your dealings. I am not saying by that one ought to become self righteous or self vindicating. There are things you must learn on your own (and I, and everyone else).

 

Insofar as your dilemma where "having a relationship with God" may be pitted against your religion or particular sect of it...in that case if you're asking which side to choose, go and be with God, always. The religion is about God and Jesus in the first place; should you find that your religion is ever at odds with that in some way then that's probably a hint.

 

2) Being away from the church. I guess in this what I am saying here is it never hurts to get out once in awhile off the beaten path.

 

While some problems can only be solved by constant diligence and pursuit (career, savings, changing your current ways and habits of living, etc.), not everything works that way for everyone. Obviously you ought to be concerned with the big things in life and I am not telling you to be otherwise. Just saying once in awhile taking that breath of fresh air (whatever context, metaphorically or literally) is good.

 

Who knows? Maybe by not concentrating so hard on what troubles you so, while you're away, something in your mind will simply click ant suddenly it will make sense because you've allowed a different point of view. Different set of eyes on the same problem. In these situations worries are lessened or at least clarity and perhaps enlightenment is attained. On troubling matters, troubles seem to fade away or at least they...sort of unlock and begin to unravel.

 

That's a fool's point of view, anyways. I know I am a fool and I am not so ignorant of that fact. Frankly so is everyone when you think about it. That's what's so great about it all. Actually I take heart in it because it means I'm just as human as anyone else!

 

As one of my favorite comic series "The Dilbert Principle" says (off memory or lack thereof): "We're all idiots. There is no avoiding it. In some way shape or form, we are all idiots. You. Me. The other people. You can have a doctorate in whatever subject, that doesn't mean you can fix your tires."

 

Also in terms of the whole "Deal with it" angle Jon raised...this is so often applied where it shouldn't be as a means to sweep a matter under the rug.

The original rationale behind it (I suspect) was that we all have small things in day to day life that we must do, even if they happen to be (mostly) inconsequential or unpleasant. Sometimes the only way to handle these small affairs is to simply do it because we must. Examples: clean the yard, clearing the snow, handling the misbehaving pet, organizing the kitchen, etc. The only way to do these things is simply to do them, obviously.

That DOES NOT MEAN if someone you love has a serious problem and needs help, that you simply turn them away by telling then to "just deal with it". Where somebody has a serious problem that actively needs addressing, then by all means it should be addressed. Tough love at the end of the day is still love. Turning away a legitimate issue is not a loving thing to do.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Yes, they are not entitled to more than a language, the scrawny little varmints.

Uh..... giggle.... sabre, it is not my fault that "i" and "u" are next to each other on the keyboard.

 

It is my fault that I didn't read my own post!!!

 

Since we are discussing religion, I have another quirky tidbit from my (wacky) mother to share with the forum:

 

Maitreya is on Earth right now, conducting interviews and coming out of secrecy. This means that if you have a beef with Jesus, you can bitch at his teacher right now, here on Earth, if you can find him.... Maitreya seems to be quite slippery though, and highly mobile.

 

Frankly, I shrug this off as further proof that my mother is sad and desperate. However, it would be quite interesting to have a Deity running around to talk to.

[Tysyacha]

Thank you, so much, to everyone who has given me advice so far. The outpouring of support I've received is far greater than I ever dreamed it would be, and has brought me far more comfort than I ever imagined.

 

As I continue on this journey, unraveling the mysteries of faith, I hope that it will all be worth the pain I'm now experiencing. Two setbacks came today:

 

THE BOOK

 

I got a Christian book today from my sister and her husband called "Always True: God's Promises when Life is Hard." Right away I got a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. Skimming through a few pages confirmed my suspicion, down in my gut as well as my heart, about a few things:

 

The book is written for people who are already strong Christians, and who just need a reminder that "God is sovereign over sin," "God is sovereign over our rebellion," and Why fear is not okay: Fear is the exact opposite of what Christianity is supposed to be." The thing is, I'm not even sure I want to be a Christian anymore. For me, this was like receiving a book about chess with a chapter (or at least a section) entitled "Why losing is not okay: Losing is the complete opposite of the aim of chess, which is to win." It is filled with tons of bolded Bible verses, one after the other, and very little explanation from the author about if and why they should be believed (especially in the face of dire situations that can make life a living hell). I get the very strong sense that the book is written that way because it was intended for people whose trust in literal Scripture is absolute, and who receive comfort from verses because they already know what they mean...

 

THE UNSETTLING DREAM

 

I had this one last night. I'm a big fan of fairy tales/fantasy, and also chess, so it's no wonder these two themes combined so vividly in my subconscious. I was a beautiful princess, although a very haughty one, who was the best chess player in my entire kingdom (and NOT just because I was the princess and people let me win, either). I just kept on winning, winning, winning...

 

Along came a handsome prince (seriously. You may be thinking, "Oh, brother!" but in the dream he was HOT). He said he wanted to challenge me to a chess game. I smirked and said, "All right. You must know that you're going to lose, but if I do instead, I'll marry you. You'll get me as a prize!" So we play, I lose (!!!!!), and the handsome prince and I get married. We should be living happily ever after, right? Wrong. I refuse to declare that our wedding was valid, because our chess game ended in a stalemate--a draw. Deep down in my heart, I know it wasn't a draw, but I won't admit it.

 

Every day the handsome prince asks me if I lost the game, and I keep telling him no. I keep telling the prince that at the chessboard, he played me to a draw and thus married me under false pretenses. He never gets mad at me or makes any other demands of me. The prince just keeps waiting, staring at me with this look of complete love/adoration on his face, hoping I'll concede at last. In the meantime, I enter dozens of chess tournaments throughout the kingdom, hoping to (reclaim) win the title. The Prince enters none. Odd...

 

Anyway, I play in these dozen tournaments, and lose EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. All my opponents just point and laugh at me, because they know I'm getting what I deserve: their scorn and condemnation. I'm getting my just deserts.

 

I come home from the final one, and the prince (still smiling) says, "How did the tournaments go?" I break down weeping. "Je perdu, perdu, perdu..."

 

As the refrain of "I lost, lost, lost!" echoed in my mind, a stupid dog started barking (in real life) outside my bedroom window and I woke up. Darn it!!!

 

***************

 

Anyway, I know at least partially what the dream means. The princess, obviously, is me, and the handsome prince represents God. The thing is, in real life I don't think I'm that much of a "witch" (although maybe I am).

 

My opponents in the chess tournament, as represented in the dream, are things like unemployment, being denied job opportunities, and being almost totally broke. These circumstances seem to be laughing at me in my losing state, and it's not funny at all. Maybe I was too proud of the job I did have, when I did have it. I know I rejoiced that I was finally "going somewhere" and "being somebody" in the world. I don't know. That dream was hard to have, and even harder to wake up from without knowing how it ended. I told the handsome prince the truth about how I did in the tournaments, but was I also conceding he'd won our game? I hope I dream the end of it soon...

[Sabretooth]

 

You aren't a witch. You are death.

[Tysyacha]

*LOL* You make me sound like the Jedi Exile, or Kreia.

[Jadolerr]

Hello,

 

I am a student of the bible, I would like to try and offer some comfort and perhaps offer satisfying answers to your questions from the bible.

 

It is written in John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

 

Have you ever wondered why God allows so much suffering in the world today, and what his purpose is for mankind?

[Tysyacha]

Indeed. I've pondered the notion, posted earlier, that God allows so much human suffering because He values the power of humans to make choices: either the right ones or the wrong ones. He doesn't like to restrict human freedom because He doesn't want robots. That makes sense to me, although all the suffering in the world breaks my heart. Many times, people suffer because someone else did all the hurting beforehand (murder, rape, financial fraud, genocide).

 

As for God's purpose for mankind? Other than "to rule and reign over all the earth," as has been mentioned before, and to worship Him for all eternity, I really don't know.

 

Welcome to the forums, by the way! I'm Tysyacha.

[Working Class Hero]

That's one of the reasons I lost my faith. Either God doesn't have the power to stop suffering or he doesn't care, so **** him.

[Alkonium]

That's one of the reasons I lost my faith. Either God doesn't have the power to stop suffering or he doesn't care, so **** him.

 

Which bring me to another point. What makes a god worthy of worship? Their power, or how they use it? Such power is so easily abused. And what makes their followers worthy of reverence? History is filled with people twisting religious texts to suit their own ends.

 

Mind you, I'm an atheist who disagrees with the whole idea of worship, but my point is still valid.

[Samuel Dravis]

According to Kierkegaard (or anyway, at least my poor understanding of him), the essence of Christianity lies in the affirmation of the existing subject that they will, continuously, strive to imitate Christ. Hence, any reasons given for why God is "worthy" of worship, whether the Bible is true, or even whether God exists or not, is at best irrelevant and at worst downright disingenuous. Those types of issues only arise in an objective worldview, which is obviously not the case with any human being who has ever lived. Someone may be convinced that Christianity is completely true historically, and yet not be Christian.

 

Presumably, one can object to this on the basis that plenty of people believe based on such reasons. But in that case, he says, they are absurd because they are resting their supposedly eternal happiness on something which can and does change easily, and this contradicts their existential status as subjective individuals. According to K, this is one of the causes of fanaticism: placing an infinite reliance on a finite piece of evidence or reasoning leads directly to irreligion. Cf. the Danish state church of Kierkegaard's time, in which theologians would endlessly debate details about the historicity of Jesus but didn't have any time to consider whether their lives reflected the affirmation of Christ characteristic of Christianity. Because of this Kierkegaard didn't consider them Christians, even though persons such as Bishop Mynster preached about it every Sunday, they had all been baptized and they all lived in a supposedly Christian state.

 

However, this doesn't mean that K thought reasons like this unimportant or that they served no purpose. They were just no good for founding an authentic faith.

[Sabretooth]

Which bring me to another point. What makes a god worthy of worship?

 

The fact that if you don't, he will **** everything on this planet and flood you and make you suffer all hell.

 

Convinces a lot of people.

[Tysyacha]

Not me--at least, not anymore. I don't want to be afraid of God, or worship Him because if I don't, I'll go to hell or "suffer all hell," as Sabretooth puts it. Fear, especially fear of condemnation and punishment, sucks. I know this firsthand. It eats me up inside and prevents me from savoring the joy of my existence, whether earthly or supernaturally. To this day, I am very scared of/intimidated by certain people because they held--and, in some cases, still hold--the power of punishment over my head. If they can withdraw/have withdrawn their love and support from me if I don't do what they say, then why wouldn't I fear such people? I have not yet learned to tell them, both in my mind and heart, to go away and "F off." I haven't gotten to the point yet where I need only myself--and confidence in myself--to survive and be the master of my own destiny. I may be weak for NOT having reached that point, but at least I feel strong enough to admit my weakness here. Yes, I have struggled. Yes, I have fought to the point of exhaustion in order to achieve my dreams. That's why it's so heartbreaking that those dreams have died.

 

There's a song that goes, "People...people who need people/Are the luckiest people in the world." I've never understood why the singer thinks that's true. SOME people exact a high price in exchange for their love and support, and if you haven't learned to live without it, it's even harder to earn it. Have you ever seen the movie "Black Swan"? I have (and it's a fabulous film, IMO).

 

Even as I "recoiled from what''s going on in (ballerina Nina's) head", as TIME puts it, I still completely sympathized with the character. Nina Sayers, if you haven't seen the movie, is a fantastic ballerina who is chosen to play the lead in a performance of Tchaikovsky's "Swan Lake". It's the opportunity of a lifetime, right? Right, except for Nina there's an enormous catch, an absolutely insidious exchange of power (her own) for perfection in the role.

 

Her mother insists that she be "sweet" and obedient; her ballet director urges her to "live a little" and dance with the verve and carefree luminosity that her understudy (and polar opposite) Lily possesses. Both of them demand that Nina please them, and become perfect in the ways THEY mean and that THEY desire. As she so tragically discovers, however, she can please neither person because neither of them will EVER be satisfied. Not completely, at least. Nina loses her mind in the film because she's never felt free enough to listen to her heart. She is driven, and driven, in the end, to...*spoiler off*

 

I almost wept during the credits. I feel like I AM NINA right now, in a spiritual sense. I know EXACTLY what she's going through (minus the self-mutilation and hallucinations). I can neither please God nor the people I love on this earth, and I feel like an utter failure for it. Why? Because according to where I SHOULD be, say my faith and the people I love despite fearing them, I should be "on a different page". I'll tell you what this means down below:

 

It means I should accept (as today's sermon title stated) "more Jesus and less me", forgetting and FORFEITING my pain and struggle because it's not important (what is important is JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, nothing else).

 

It means I should "endure it for love's sake" instead of "doing what feels good." In my own opinion, what is IT--that which I should endure? Perpetual celibacy, the perpetual denial and suppression of my own desires, etc. Notice the word "perpetual" here, in both cases. I did not type that word lightly. That word means not just "for time", here on this earth, but for eternity.

 

Am I proud? Yes. Am I haughty, like the Princess in my dreams? Also yes. However, beneath my pride lies FEAR. I am willing to lose my pride and admit that I am afraid, and admit that this fear still remains. I'm afraid of God, who appears as the "handsome prince" in my dreams but who could, in actuality, be a cruel and punishing taskmaster who wishes and demands the forfeiture of my very "psikheia"--my soul, in other words, who I am as a SELF.

 

All for Jesus' sake, of course.

 

To Christians, that should be comforting. For me, it's absolutely terrifying.

 

THAT is why I'm losing my religion, and not merely because I hate rules and regulations that make no sense in my own life--rules and regulations that I've been conditioned to follow without thinking, without questioning. Only belief.

 

At the end of the service, my pastor prayed, "I thank You, Heavenly Father, for every person that's here." I don't think that my pastor really thought through what that meant, and what he was really saying. IF he was really thankful for every person attending church today, THEN he was thankful for ME being there. He has absolutely no idea of my struggle right now, and if he did know, I don't think he would be so thankful. I think he'd gladly exchange me for a true believer, who is absolutely delighted to "decrease as Jesus increases" and so on. Who'd want ME instead of a true believer, anyway?

 

Hey, I know! You humans would, and that's why you're still sticking with me.

 

*HUG* And for that, I thank you.

[Alkonium]

The fact that if you don't, he will **** everything on this planet and flood you and make you suffer all hell.

 

Convinces a lot of people.

 

That doesn't make God worthy of worship, it makes him/her/it worthy of deposition, if you consider him/her/it real. To say that is enough to me, is essentially saying that "Might makes right" and that God can do no wrong because noone can stop Him. But if might makes right, then the greatest injustices in human history can be justified.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

^^^ I assumed sabretooth was stating the general interpretation, not a POV... I could be wrong.

 

The Incarnations of Immortality series by Piers Anthony is an interesting read on this subject, especially books 6 and 7 dealing with the "big" movers and shakers... The idea of deposition is what reminded me of it. Anthony takes on the big subjects with his typical punniness, but some quite profound (IMO) ideas.

 

Justification of Belief is always a problem when talking about God's existence, and is a subject worthy of its own thread (and/or a semester at University) - and slightly off-topic here.

 

Thinking about your title, Ty, I think you should do as you titled. Lose your Religion... and keep your God if you want to! It is a personal relationship that is most important, after all. I find organized religion to be an excuse for people to think less.

[Darth Avlectus]

Not me--at least, not anymore. I don't want to be afraid of God, or worship Him because if I don't, I'll go to hell or "suffer all hell," as Sabretooth puts it.

 

This is a problem my father had with the whole "God fearing" thing. And in that same way, so do I.

 

Personally, I think better terms are God respecting (which needn't have fear in it), and God loving (also needn't have fear).

 

The only thing you need fear is yourself consciously making bad decisions at peril of others. Which is more rational. To fear all the time is not living.

 

 

To this day, I am very scared of/intimidated by certain people because they held--and, in some cases, still hold--the power of punishment over my head. If they can withdraw/have withdrawn their love and support from me if I don't do what they say, then why wouldn't I fear such people? I have not yet learned to tell them, both in my mind and heart, to go away and "F off."

Well, it's fair that if the best guidance "they" can give for their satisfaction is vague, then "they" really don't have much ground to stand on and still call their ire justifiable for their expectations not being met. In other words, you can't be more specific with what you want, then don't complain when you get generalized results. Is that not a fair point?

 

 

I haven't gotten to the point yet where I need only myself--and confidence in myself--to survive and be the master of my own destiny. I may be weak for NOT having reached that point, but at least I feel strong enough to admit my weakness here. Yes, I have struggled. Yes, I have fought to the point of exhaustion in order to achieve my dreams. That's why it's so heartbreaking that those dreams have died.

 

While an individualist at heart, there comes a point other people are needed. It all matters how you utilize that presence of others that tells what kind of person you are. Sometimes action speaks louder than words ever will.

 

There's a song that goes, "People...people who need people/Are the luckiest people in the world." I've never understood why the singer thinks that's true.

Possibly speaking from a perspective that others will gladly come to the aid of the needy. Sometimes sacrificing much in their own lives to at least make the living of the one in need that much easier/more comfortable.

 

SOME people exact a high price in exchange for their love and support, and if you haven't learned to live without it, it's even harder to earn it.

Well just because you're without a church does not mean you're without people necessarily. Besides, it isn't always possible to be on your own; whether you want to or not, whether you like it or not. Tried being a hermit. Didn't work.

 

To be the one in charge means a great deal of responsibility. Tormenting those you take care of does not sound responsible. Sounds tyrannous. Are people you know treating you this way? Lording 'power' over you?

 

*brevity*

Her mother insists that she be "sweet" and obedient; her ballet director urges her to "live a little" and dance with the verve and carefree luminosity that her understudy (and polar opposite) Lily possesses.

 

This is all too reminiscent of times in past in parts of the world where if you did not exhibit certain personality traits, and did not have audacity enough to attack the pecking order to try to become one of those on top of it, you were discouraged from any kind of self esteem or taking charge in your life.

 

Reminds me of Franz Kafka's metamorphosis.

 

Both of them demand that Nina please them, and become perfect in the ways THEY mean and that THEY desire. As she so tragically discovers, however, she can please neither person because neither of them will EVER be satisfied. Not completely, at least. Nina loses her mind in the film because she's never felt free enough to listen to her heart. She is driven, and driven, in the end, to...*spoiler off*

It's tragedy like that which woke people up out of conformity. People woke up and realized climbing to the top of a heap is not always the ticket to happiness.

 

Yeah, that is what I'm talking about: The un-pleaseable character in charge of just about any kind of situation. Does not treasure excellence but merely expects it. Totally warped view on what it means to, for example "give it your best always".

 

These are folks I would ask: "Just what makes YOU so deserving of everyone else's best efforts?" Usually gets the reaction like "I'm the boss/leader" "because I said so" and all that crap. Overwhelming majority of cases the person is a complete hypocrite--or perhaps a tool to someone else but this is a discussion for another time.

The ones that are not hypocrites...are slave driving, self injuring massochists who never end up being around long anyways (except when finally seeing reason).

 

I do have to respect the latter, though, for living up to their own demands and expectations; workaholics. Usually when brought back down to earth and made to be reasonable instead of self destructive...they yield excellent performance and results.

 

Actually there was a reality show (undercover boss) about CEO's who went undercover and applied as grunts to their own business to get a glimpse of the real world and how it is really like to work for their own company. Enlightening and amazing.

 

I almost wept during the credits. I feel like I AM NINA right now, in a spiritual sense. I know EXACTLY what she's going through (minus the self-mutilation and hallucinations). I can neither please God nor the people I love on this earth, and I feel like an utter failure for it. Why? Because according to where I SHOULD be, say my faith and the people I love despite fearing them, I should be "on a different page".

 

You don't know if God is displeased or not--who is another to judge that for you? Just another human being. Another merely annoying, idiotic, foolish human being. No you have not displeased anyone because they said so. They are about as qualified as you are to speak for God.

 

I may presume to know God, but at the end of the day I consider that I may not know anything of God at all. That does not frighten me in the least. Personally I think you are doing fine. You seem to care genuinely about others. IMO that's what God wanted for His own creations. More than I can say for some people.

 

I'll tell you what this means down below:

 

It means I should accept (as today's sermon title stated) "more Jesus and less me", forgetting and FORFEITING my pain and struggle because it's not important (what is important is JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, nothing else).

I think the point of this is simply to not become self-absorbed, and consider "WWJD?" when it comes to other people. I'm not Jesus, but I do think he'd be generous, especially to those in need. Do not be drawn into worshiping at your peril. Think of it this way: if you aren't around to be generous and kind to, say, less fortunate passers by, then who will? You can't help someone else if you yourself are unwell or, God forbid, not alive.

 

For example, I come across Snow Boarders who basically gave it their all just to have a wonderful day on the slopes. They have no transportation nor do they expect any--and broke. They choose to walk in fact. But they do get hungry. I figure, hey, why not have one as a guest if, for example, I'm going to a restaurant like Jack in the Box? So I pull one aside and ask "Need some food?" I buy them a meal. If they want company, I talk to them too. They're the happiest people I ever seen. That joy, even if they never express gratitude, is worth more than buying two meals and pigging out on two meals by myself. Though I have yet to meet a snow bum that didn't thank me.

 

I can't do it for everyone but if I do it for someone here and there I can at least make a small difference, one at a time. Better than no difference at all. If I wasn't here, then I wouldn't be able to make that small difference.

 

It means I should "endure it for love's sake" instead of "doing what feels good." In my own opinion, what is IT--that which I should endure?

This sounds like loving others despite their imperfections. Put another way to my example above: I'm enduring not getting any material nor monitary payback for buying a meal so another person can eat scott-free--but I go into doing this deed knowing that. I could maybe have used the additional money for gasoline. In the long run, though, it isn't that big a detriment to me and it made that person's day. It was not the money that bought that joy, it was the act of generosity.

 

At the end of the service, my pastor prayed, "I thank You, Heavenly Father, for every person that's here." I don't think that my pastor really thought through what that meant, and what he was really saying. IF he was really thankful for every person attending church today, THEN he was thankful for ME being there. He has absolutely no idea of my struggle right now, and if he did know, I don't think he would be so thankful. I think he'd gladly exchange me for a true believer, who is absolutely delighted to "decrease as Jesus increases" and so on. Who'd want ME instead of a true believer, anyway?

 

Hey, I know! You humans would, and that's why you're still sticking with me.

 

*HUG* And for that, I thank you.

 

I do not fancy myself a revrend, no. Still, it sounds like the particular religious structure you attend is actually the one failing. Not you. Also I think that Someone is very happy you are a generous caring person. And BTW you're welcome.