Is indoctrination of children child abuse?

[Darth Avlectus]

@ OP: While I see what you're getting at I'm going to say "it depends". Where something like sexual abuse can't EVER be good, religiousness needn't always be bad though it has been pointed out by others here that the level of religiosity varies.

 

If you mean indoctrination as in the extreme detriment (which you seem to be going for), then obviously this is of great disservice to the child presently and in the future and I'll agree in these specific cases it's abusive; conversely if it is not to extreme detriment and no appreciable harm is done, then it isn't really abuse.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Tysyacha]

I can only speak for myself here, but I cannot begin to count the ways in which religious indoctrination has harmed me. As a very young child, I was spanked. Even though the spankings didn't really hurt physically, they made me think that I was a bad little girl and Mommy and Daddy didn't love me when I did bad things. They only loved me when I did good things.

 

So I believed, and internalized, almost as soon as I could talk.

 

Enter the preacher, and a Sunday School teacher who tried to bring the concept of Hell down to the level of us kids: "It's like an eternal spanking."

 

You cannot imagine how that terrified me. I wanted to avoid Hell at all costs, and that left me incredibly vulnerable to the doctrine that I would lose my eternal salvation if I kept doing bad things after asking Jesus into my heart.

 

I believed it, wholeheartedly, and tried never to sin. Naturally, I failed.

 

As for (Christ's) forgiveness, that was entirely dependent upon whether you kept repenting and repenting after each sin. I even went through a phase where I thought getting bad grades and doing math problems wrong were sins. If I were truly living a Christian life, I wouldn't be doing so badly in either Math or P.E. I'd understand them better, and perform better despite my disability. Every time I failed to please someone or obey them, I believed that was a sin. Sexual thoughts? Sins. Having silly crushes on guys? Sins. Thinking about committing a sin was exactly the same as committing it.

 

There was no escape, especially in my mind. I tried to suppress my sinful emotions (anger, lust, wanting revenge, competitiveness) while always trying to display the positive ones (love, kindness, not burdening other people).

 

Eventually, my "sinful emotions" got too hard to handle and I tried to commit suicide. I barely ate, slept, and went out in subzero weather. For 9 days.

 

Straight.

 

I tried to deny myself utterly, even unto death, so I'd finally be like Jesus.

 

Another case in point: I'm itching to buy this one computer game, even though I know it's not in my budget and probably won't be for a while. I feel so guilty because a) I want to buy that game and I know I'm not supposed to want it and b) if I were a good person, I'd immediately scoff and not give the purchase another thought. It's a computer game, for crying out loud, and yet it's got me all tied up in knots. The threat of Hell-hell is abstract, but disobeying my budget rules and "catching all hell" for it? That I understand.

 

I feel like I'd be sinning if I bought that game, because God wouldn't want me to. THAT is the kind of messed-up, psychotic, completely irrational fear and guilt that religious indoctrination has instilled in me. Now you know why going to church makes me feel sick to my stomach and I even cringe when I hear certain people say Jesus' name. I find it harder than climbing Mount Everest, trying to get rid of all this guilt, fear and shame. It's almost impossible.

 

If I ever have children, I'll let them decide whether they want to go to any kind of church or not, but I will NEVER force them to go. I don't want them to go through the same kind of living hell I'm going through due to religion.

[Tommycat]

No offense, Tysyacha, but it seems more like you had a fairly normal childhood, but created your own mental problems. Quite frankly I know many people who have had worse than you have described, and were not emotionally scarred by it. Perhaps there's something I'm missing. And if there really is some emotional scarring, I apologize, but it sounds more like you are affected by sources outside the religion. Of course, I'm no mental health professional though, but it doesn't seem that the religious side was as much the problem as possibly another source.

[Jae Onasi]

Peace? You do realise that there have been many wars started in the past over which religion was praising God the right way right?

When you say positive moral values which bible are you referring to? If (for example) you think what the old testament was proposing was good moral values then i'd strongly disagree. But I keep forgetting that the church can review their "Papal infallibility" and change their views to keep up with society whenever it suits them.

 

@ Topic: Yes, it is child abuse. If you're religious the decent thing to do would be to not poison your childs mind.

Yes, yes, and Mao and Stalin killed more in the name of their 'infallible Communism and atheism' than all other religious wars combined. I don't buy that argument about religious wars one bit.

[Tysyacha]

Tommycat,

 

You're right. I do have mental health issues, and probably have had them since I was a child (although it wasn't cool to have them diagnosed early--or at all--in the 1980's). However, religious indoctrination didn't ameliorate these problems. It exacerbated them.

[Working Class Hero]

Yes, yes, and Mao and Stalin killed more in the name of their 'infallible Communism and atheism' than all other religious wars combined. I don't buy that argument about religious wars one bit.

Er, except Mao and Stalin didn't kill more people than all other religious wars combined. I recommend doing some research into Old Testament Genocide, the Roman Christian's suppression of paganism, the Irish/English religious wars, the Crusades, 15th century Poland, the genocide of Native Americans, the Spanish Inquisition, French Huguenots, Croatian extermination camps, and the Rwanda massacres...that should give you a nice general overview.

 

If you're feeling particularly adventurous, read Mein Kempf; it gives a nice Luther-esque motivation for Aryan supremacy.

 

{Snipped for space}............If I ever have children, I'll let them decide whether they want to go to any kind of church or not, but I will NEVER force them to go. I don't want them to go through the same kind of living hell I'm going through due to religion.

This may sound cold, but why don't you....do something about it? There's absolutely nothing keeping you chained to your childhood.

If God is giving you so much agony, give it up. If you feel you have mental health issues, then get them checked out.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Det. Bart Lasiter - I was going by programming rules, as Tommycat noted, and I thought you would be on the same page, as you were once upon a time a bit of a scripter yourself, at least I remember some tools you made that many found useful, although I for one struck my own path on the local road of KotOR programming. "=" is assignment, as Tommycat noted, and "==" is equivalence. Sentential logic uses several different symbols that cannot easily be reproduced with a common keyboard, but that is another story altogether.

 

@Totenkopf: I, for one, would love to see proof or disproof of God's existence. I would also like to say that Sun will always rise. I will mostlikely never live to see either proven or disproved, although science does tell us that someday the sun will rise too much, and then we will be crispy. Proof of an angry God perhaps?

 

@Tommycat: Not sure where you were going with that response, as it kind of ignores my analogy. Perhaps you were thinking that the sun will definitely not rise someday, due to your education. If that is the case, then my analogy is a failure. If you are saying that you can prove the sun will rise tomorrow, you are wrong.

Yes, yes, and Mao and Stalin killed more in the name of their 'infallible Communism and atheism' than all other religious wars combined. I don't buy that argument about religious wars one bit.

Uh... ummm... are you serious? Really? Really?

 

Really?

 

In terms of gross numbers, it is possible that you are right. In terms of percentage of population at the time of occurrence, you are ignoring the history of the world as if it never happened. I can hear Mel Brooks, singing....

"The Inquisition (what a show)

The Inquisition (here we go)

We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.

But the Inquisition's here and it's here to-

"Hey Toquemada, walk this way."

[Tysyacha]

Working Class Hero,

 

In terms of my mental health issues, I have indeed gotten them checked out, but I'm still finding it incredibly hard to break free of the fundamentalist thought patterns that have been drilled into me ever since I started going to church (at about 6 years old). You're absolutely right that there's absolutely nothing chaining me to my childhood...

 

...but at least for me, breaking free is an uphill battle.

[Tommycat]

Working Class Hero,

 

In terms of my mental health issues, I have indeed gotten them checked out, but I'm still finding it incredibly hard to break free of the fundamentalist thought patterns that have been drilled into me ever since I started going to church (at about 6 years old). You're absolutely right that there's absolutely nothing chaining me to my childhood...

 

...but at least for me, breaking free is an uphill battle.

Cool, thanks for not taking offense at my response. I understand that mental issues can be exacerbated by religion, but the same can be said about other fear based teachings. Imagine a child being brought up thinking about the global warming debate. Being told that the world's population must change or they are doomed. They wouldn't even have the level of control over their fate you have in faith...

 

VVV: Um it's easy to point to religion and say "See they did bad things in the name of religion" and ignore the Atheists who did bad things because they didn't do it specifically IN the name of Atheism... But I can also point to how churches and religions have fed the poor. Christian Monks were the ones who created the first hospitals. And to this day many hospitals are run by churches(keeping costs down, and providing some essentially free services). What good has been done in the name of Atheism? It's easy not to do anything bad if you don't do anything at all.

 

QGG: The "rising of the sun" is an observable fact. The rotation of the Earth has been an observable fact. As for one day it not rising, it is in theory possible one day it may not rise. But we have an actual observable fact versus something that cannot be observed until our demise, and at that point you cannot publish the results. Though as stated many people who have had near death experiences have said they felt something... Not to mention the number of incidents where there are reported ghosts(which implies existence beyond death, but does not prove it as there are many explanations as to what they might be, and there has not been conclusive proof that ghosts do exist).

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

QGG: The "rising of the sun" is an observable fact. The rotation of the Earth has been an observable fact. As for one day it not rising, it is in theory possible one day it may not rise. But we have an actual observable fact versus something that cannot be observed until our demise, and at that point you cannot publish the results. Though as stated many people who have had near death experiences have said they felt something... Not to mention the number of incidents where there are reported ghosts(which implies existence beyond death, but does not prove it as there are many explanations as to what they might be, and there has not been conclusive proof that ghosts do exist).

Yes, my analogy was not strong enough. I concede, although I wish I had a better analogy to make my point. The whole "sun will rise" concept is 101 philosophy, Epistemology specifically, as you may know. Inductive reasoning can be helpful, but does not provide "knowledge", as you cannot know events or things until they happen, if at all.

 

I am not claiming in the least that Christians or Jews or Muslims or any other religious folk are de facto abusing their children by raising them in those particular ways. I think many take it too far, and I have seen the results in my own family... The most restrictive and religious families end up having the wildest children, because the must rebel and revolt at some point, stifled too long from getting to be, a, kid.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Det. Bart Lasiter - I was going by programming rules, as Tommycat noted, and I thought you would be on the same page, as you were once upon a time a bit of a scripter yourself, at least I remember some tools you made that many found useful, although I for one struck my own path on the local road of KotOR programming. "=" is assignment, as Tommycat noted, and "==" is equivalence. Sentential logic uses several different symbols that cannot easily be reproduced with a common keyboard, but that is another story altogether.

'==' means you're asking if the things on either side are equivalent in (c-like) programming notation and several other notations. 'x == y' is the same as saying 'if x is equal to y', or 'if x = y'.

 

oh god, look at how neurotic childhood religiosity made me

[Jae Onasi]

Working Class Hero,

 

In terms of my mental health issues, I have indeed gotten them checked out, but I'm still finding it incredibly hard to break free of the fundamentalist thought patterns that have been drilled into me ever since I started going to church (at about 6 years old). You're absolutely right that there's absolutely nothing chaining me to my childhood...

 

...but at least for me, breaking free is an uphill battle.

I'm a recovered fundamentalist and lived to tell about it.

Even managed to keep faith in God, though it required a great deal of soul-searching and study to reach that point.

 

And at the risk of sounding trite, God/Christ love you more than you're letting you love yourself right now.

[Tommycat]

'==' means you're asking if the things on either side are equivalent in (c-like) programming notation and several other notations. 'x == y' is the same as saying 'if x is equal to y', or 'if x = y'.

 

oh god, look at how neurotic childhood religiosity made me

 

I was using shell scripting as my base. "==" is usually used for "roughly equal to, but not exact"

[Quist]

When I was a child, my mother used to pray with with me and my siblings. She would pray that we would not be "free-thinkers." One day when I mustered up the courage to ask why we shouldn't think freely for ourselves, I was rebuffed quite sternly and told, "You're only supposed to think what God wants you to think and nothing else. Free-thinkers have never done the world any good."

 

When I was a little older, I asked my mother if my Aunt Rita was going to heaven. My Aunt Rita is an excellent trauma surgeon and a participant in Doctors Without Borders. When not deployed, she regularly spends time at a local orphanage to counsel the children there. She is a kind and loving mother to my cousins and the perfect wife to my uncle (to whom I am related). She is nominally Muslim, though she does not practice Islam to any degree, to the point of being agnostic/atheist. I have never heard her say anything bad about anyone. She's pretty much my heroine.

 

My mother said that my Aunt Rita is not going to heaven because she "has not accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior. She is not living as Jesus would have lived."

 

I have never forgotten those words. Fortunately, my children will never have to remember them because they will be raised in a loving environment free of Christian hypocrisy.

[Alexrd]

When I was a child, my mother used to pray with with me and my siblings. She would pray that we would not be "free-thinkers." One day when I mustered up the courage to ask why we shouldn't think freely for ourselves, I was rebuffed quite sternly and told, "You're only supposed to think what God wants you to think and nothing else. Free-thinkers have never done the world any good."

 

My mother said that my Aunt Rita is not going to heaven because she "has not accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior. She is not living as Jesus would have lived."

 

That's not very christian.

[Quist]

I disagree. It's very Christian. If you don't accept Jesus as your "Lord and Savior", then you don't get to go to heaven, no matter how good you've been. This is the fundamental truth behind Christianity. And it is sickening.

[Totenkopf]

^Don't know about you or how you were raised, buy most Christians I know have never spouted any belief that non-Christians could never get into Heaven. Doubt there are even that many here that think that Jews and others can't get there by living a "good life". Besides, in the end, God makes His own decisions about who makes the cut.

[purifier]

^Don't know about you or how you were raised, buy most Christians I know have never spouted any belief that non-Christians could never get into Heaven. Doubt there are even that many here that think that Jews and others can't get there by living a "good life". Besides, in the end, God makes His own decisions about who makes the cut.

 

Makes sense to me and your last sentence Totenkopf reminds me of something Gandhi said....

 

"God has no religion."

 

Funny how us humans never stop to consider that. I believe God, The Creator, Lord, Jehovah, Jesus, Muhammad, or whatever name the entity goes by, doesn't care what you claim to be and what you believe in, as long as you follow the main rule in life - "The Golden Rule"

[Quist]

^Don't know about you or how you were raised, buy most Christians I know have never spouted any belief that non-Christians could never get into Heaven.

 

This is how I was raised.

 

Doubt there are even that many here that think that Jews and others can't get there by living a "good life". Besides, in the end, God makes His own decisions about who makes the cut.

Most Christians I know would be upset or angry at this sort of sentiment towards God's judgment, as it would invalidate their very reason for being Christian. Christianity is very much like an elitist club. You're either in or you're not.

[Totenkopf]

Not sure it invalidates anything beyond an absolutist interpretation that effectively straightjackets God's ability to do as He choose fit. Perhaps it's a difference between certain sects of Christianity. Not everyone on earth has been exposed to God through Jesus, so to speak over the last 2000 +/- years. I seriously doubt many of those people went to hell.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

That's not very christian.

 

^Don't know about you or how you were raised, buy most Christians I know have never spouted any belief that non-Christians could never get into Heaven. Doubt there are even that many here that think that Jews and others can't get there by living a "good life". Besides, in the end, God makes His own decisions about who makes the cut.

 

Makes sense to me and your last sentence Totenkopf reminds me of something Gandhi said....

 

"God has no religion."

 

Funny how us humans never stop to consider that. I believe God, The Creator, Lord, Jehovah, Jesus, Muhammad, or whatever name the entity goes by, doesn't care what you claim to be and what you believe in, as long as you follow the main rule in life - "The Golden Rule"

 

Not sure it invalidates anything beyond an absolutist interpretation that effectively straightjackets God's ability to do as He choose fit. Perhaps it's a difference between certain sects of Christianity. Not everyone on earth has been exposed to God through Jesus, so to speak over the last 2000 +/- years. I seriously doubt many of those people went to hell.

 

Sorry, but until we can get God down here to confirm y'all's ideas on the matter, we're gonna have to go by religious texts and not any of your revised editions.

 

Also, isn't it a bit blasphemous for any of you to speak for God or make judgments of what's right and what ain't just to suit your own arguments? I'm pretty sure it's been made clear that the knowledge of good and evil resides within the realm of the divine.

[Tommycat]

Sorry, but until we can get God down here to confirm y'all's ideas on the matter, we're gonna have to go by religious texts and not any of your revised editions.

 

Also, isn't it a bit blasphemous for any of you to speak for God or make judgments of what's right and what ain't just to suit your own arguments? I'm pretty sure it's been made clear that the knowledge of good and evil resides within the realm of the divine.

 

Yes, but the texts have many interpretations. And also many different translations. For instance, we can take the passages, "Judge not lest ye be judged" or "Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" seem to imply that it is not our place to say who goes where. God gets to choose.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Yes, but the texts have many interpretations. And also many different translations. For instance, we can take the passages, "Judge not lest ye be judged" or "Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" seem to imply that it is not our place to say who goes where. God gets to choose.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Except we supposedly have books originally thought of by God which dictate moral codes we have to follow. You listing instructions that say passing judgment is a task for God and God alone does nothing to disprove what I said. Which is, essentially, that none of you are in a position to pick and choose which parts of a religion are part of said religion when God has supposedly dictated every part of that religion and that in doing so you are, in fact, blaspheming by overstepping your bounds. You can feel free to do so, but in doing so you are warping your own religion into something that it isn't.

[Tommycat]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Except we supposedly have books originally thought of by God which dictate moral codes we have to follow. You listing instructions that say passing judgment is a task for God and God alone does nothing to disprove what I said. Which is, essentially, that none of you are in a position to pick and choose which parts of a religion are part of said religion when God has supposedly dictated every part of that religion and that in doing so you are, in fact, blaspheming by overstepping your bounds. You can feel free to do so, but in doing so you are warping your own religion into something that it isn't.

My mistake. Essentially what you were saying was that they cannot use the "no true Scottsman" argument. Sadly I can agree with your observation, that they cannot just say, "Well they're not REAL Christians" because in order to do that you would have to prove that they are not following some Christian sect(even if they are a twisted sect)

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

My mistake. Essentially what you were saying was that they cannot use the "no true Scottsman" argument. Sadly I can agree with your observation, that they cannot just say, "Well they're not REAL Christians" because in order to do that you would have to prove that they are not following some Christian sect(even if they are a twisted sect)

 

Pretty much. I'd be willing to concede this point the day I can tell people I'm a vegetarian except for chicken, fish, and red meat and not be glared at like an idiot. Tailoring your religion so that believing in it doesn't make you look like a draconian ******* whose sense of morality stopped progressing thousands of years ago is illogical from the non-believer's standpoint and blasphemous from the believer's.

 

If you don't have the faith to stone gays and adulterers to death, accept that maybe none of the Judeo-Christian religions is for you. At least then you might be able to find a deity that won't damn you for eternity for not having the faith to kill an innocent.