Wanting a reason to believe

[Darth Xander]

I feel the exact same way. I consider myself Agnostic, I have a lot of confusion regarding personal faith and beliefs. I could rant and go on and on about this however my point is, that once in a while I get absolutely white-knuckle terrified when I think about death, in my mind, when I die - there will be nothing. Ever. I would love nothing more than to believe otherwise but I can't compute the possibility of faith (for me). I just can't.

I'm mentioning this to you, now, because how I deal with it, is I sit back and think about my life as it's been so far (I'm only 19) and I think how well I've done in terms of education, how lucky I am in terms of living in a 1st world country, various different memories, my family, my girlfriend and how much I love her, and more recently my kitten (Revan). These things make me smile the most, and are what make my life worth living and at the very least, serve a proper distraction.

 

What I suggest, is perhaps sit back like I do and just think and remember all the good things in your life, and if a smile sneaks its way through your terrified exterior, then it's not so bad after all.

[CptPriceless]

I could rant and go on and on about

These might not be the same as your beliefs, but I felt it was appropriate putting this here, given what follows...

 

When I was younger, I was a full fledged Christian. Over time, however, I turned into an agnostic, and, soon after, became an atheist.

 

I can completely understand where you're coming from. Why you would fear death. Well, not fear, but… contemplate, I guess. Humans seem to possess that intrinsic fear or curiosity for things they don't quite understand. For an example, why do some people fear the dark? In my mind, religion is a way of explaining those aspects of the world that seemingly can't be understood through any alternative means. Just like the Greeks used myths of gods and goddesses to explain thunder, ocean storms, spiders, and other such phenomena, modern religion explains what happens after death, why morality matters, how the universe was created, why the universe was created, etc. While I see religion as pleasant fiction, many others see religion as authentic explanations for those unanswerable questions that can't be proven through anything but faith. Note that I'm not denouncing religion and I respect most people who believes in a religion. In fact one is my own mother. Also note that I say "most people" because I happen know one that's a complete hypocritical jackass… Let's not get into that.

 

But I can't wrap my head around religion. Not anymore, at least. In the past, religion galvanized three bloody crusades, a corrupt papacy that subjugated much of Europe, etc. In the modern world, although only a small minority, extremist organizations in the Middle East and, more recently, in North Africa have sparked years of brutal conflict. Although the media exaggerates the amount of death that has occurred as a result of such conflict, many political scientists agree that the modern world is one where physical, violent conflict is less about territorial or economic competition and more about ideological competition - for an example, humanism vs Jihadism. Even conflicts that have little to do with religious ideology - examples include various intrastate wars in Egypt, Syria, and Central Africa - are not stopped by any sort of divine intervention, despite the amount of devastation they cause. Whenever I bring up these points, the response I get is always the same: "It's a test of your faith." But if someone was raped and tortured, would being faithful and going to Heaven change the fact that that person was raped and tortured? Like I said, I can't wrap my head around it.

 

Furthermore, cosmologists confidently say that the universe has existed for about 13.7 billion years. 2.5 million of those years are estimated to contain human life. That, and given the size and scope of the universe, we're quite small, fragile, and perhaps even irrelevant. So is there really a purpose to our existence? I don't think so, unless there's a Mass Effect kind of thing going on. And even then, I wouldn't believe in any religion. The Bible didn't mention any Turian... I think... Unless it was written in some cryptic phrasing…

 

colloquial existential Nihilism seems to me as the only logical conclusion of Atheism.

 

Yeah, I feel the same. I don't enjoy being an atheist, but my mind won't accept anything else. For a while after becoming an atheist, I was the most apathetic person I knew.

 

I guess our superiority complex inherently refuses nihilism, which is why so many people believe there absolutely has to be a reason for why we exist - religion. I think otherwise; if we don't have an absolute, defined purpose, we make our own.

 

That's why I don't fear death. I fear the pain that might come before it (the feelings of loss, regret, or perhaps being stabbed...), but I don't fear death itself. Steve Jobs once said, “Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.” Steve also tried to show with his actions that knowing that you're going to die should also serve as an incentive to make the most out of the life that you do have, and not hold yourself down with questions that you know won't be answered with satisfactory answers - as cliche as it sounds.

 

These things make me smile the most, and are what make my life worth living... What I suggest, is perhaps sit back like I do and just think and remember all the good things in your life...

 

Anyways, I'm sorry if I did the absolute opposite of what you asked - to make you believe in something that would comfort you. But if you can't seem to find an answer outside of atheism, I hope this [arguably naive] response at least comforts your position.

[Alexrd]

In the past, religion galvanized three bloody crusades, a corrupt papacy that subjugated much of Europe, etc. In the modern world, although only a small minority, extremist organizations in the Middle East and, more recently, in North Africa have sparked years of brutal conflict.

 

It's always easy to blame religion when people are the real problem. It's like blaming science for Hiroshima or idealism for Hitler and Stalin.

[CptPriceless]

It's always easy to blame religion when people are the real problem. It's like blaming science for Hiroshima or idealism for Hitler and Stalin.

 

I agree. Misinterpretation and abuse of religion is the cause of problems, not religion itself.

[Tommycat]

Perhaps what you need to do first is get over the termination of your physical body as some form of end of your existence. Think of it as a transference of energy. Your energy does not get destroyed, but merely changed from one state to another. There have been several studies that showed a minor change in mass upon expiration. What that change in mass was caused by is unknown, but it hints at something being removed from the physical body after death. I know from MY part it took rather extraordinary evidence to convince me that there is life after death. I suspect it would be similar for you. So for now, think of the termination of life as the transference of energy from one state to another.

 

Only God would be able to convince you of God's existence. Essentially, it would take a miracle to truly convince you(as it did me) of a supreme being's existence. And even then you would still question if the miracle was really a miracle, and not merely some weird happenstance of luck, mental state, and natural phenomenon. You may try visiting haunted places to debunk as many as possible. While the vast majority are pure hogwash, a few out there seem to defy logic.

 

Whenever I bring up these points, the response I get is always the same: "It's a test of your faith." But if someone was raped and tortured, would being faithful and going to Heaven change the fact that that person was raped and tortured? Like I said, I can't wrap my head around it.

A friend of mine had the best argument for this. He believed that our souls are on this Earth to learn. Once we have learned all of the lessons we may ascend to a higher plane of existence, but if we are cruel and evil in a prior life, we are given the opportunity to experience the opposite in the next life. Or we are placed in the position of experiencing the loss. So a person who rapes and tortures in one life has their soul placed in that of a person who gets raped/tortured in the next. A murderer may have his next life as the family member who faces the sadness of the loss of that loved one.

[Isaac Clarke]

A friend of mine had the best argument for this. He believed that our souls are on this Earth to learn. Once we have learned all of the lessons we may ascend to a higher plane of existence, but if we are cruel and evil in a prior life, we are given the opportunity to experience the opposite in the next life. Or we are placed in the position of experiencing the loss. So a person who rapes and tortures in one life has their soul placed in that of a person who gets raped/tortured in the next. A murderer may have his next life as the family member who faces the sadness of the loss of that loved one.

 

The whole point of punishment is to prevent it from happening again, to teach the misbehaver a lesson. Assuming that it is the case that we have more than one life, if in the next life people forget everything that happens in their previous life, don't you think it defeats the purpose of punishment? It won't prevent them from doing anything different, because they don't remember what they have done wrong.

[Tommycat]

The whole point of punishment is to prevent it from happening again, to teach the misbehaver a lesson. Assuming that it is the case that we have more than one life, if in the next life people forget everything that happens in their previous life, don't you think it defeats the purpose of punishment? It won't prevent them from doing anything different, because they don't remember what they have done wrong.

 

It was his belief that the lesson was imprinted on the soul, not just the individual who has no idea that his past self was a cruel heartless dictator or whatever. But the lesson was given to the soul to make the soul better fit to understand the lessons they were to learn before ascending.

 

Not my belief. Just explaining how he justified how my sister's death was necessary in the grand scheme of things.

[Isaac Clarke]

It was his belief that the lesson was imprinted on the soul, not just the individual who has no idea that his past self was a cruel heartless dictator or whatever. But the lesson was given to the soul to make the soul better fit to understand the lessons they were to learn before ascending.

 

Not my belief. Just explaining how he justified how my sister's death was necessary in the grand scheme of things.

 

Ah, well. I find theoretical and metaphysical debates rather pointless, since it is mostly just speculation and little actual evidence for any of the claims.

[Tommycat]

Ah, well. I find theoretical and metaphysical debates rather pointless, since it is mostly just speculation and little actual evidence for any of the claims.

 

I do believe that's why it's all faith based... If it were fact based, then it wouldn't be Faith, it would be science.

[Me_Who_Else]

May I pour gasoline in the fire?

 

NDEs are often used as an argument for the existence of God

First objection about that is, that only a small part of people who are near death have a NDE.

Second: A NDE is as you know a NEAR death experience. So NOT death. Brains tend to do crazy **** in danger. And iminent death is clearly a danger. Brains work faster with oxygendeprivation.

Third: How comes that people in different regions and out of different cultures see different Gods or their avatars? Christians tend to see angels or jesus. Moslems see mohammed. Hindus see Krishna or equivalent. Asatru see Valkyres ect ect...Mind to explain that.

 

@Canderis: There is nothing to be afraid of. Death itself is not to fear..the way of dying is the concern =)

[DuckfromPortal]

I'm going to preach my own atheism right now, I believe there is no higher power, that no after life exists even if there is a god, and that when you die, you rot in the ground.

Why am i ok with this you might ask, I'm ok because i find comfort in the ones i love. I am sure there is no afterlife, but if there is i will be surprised after my life and just smile and be happy to see the ones i love again. Now does this mean I since i am a nonbeliever that i hate religion and that i fear death? No of course not, if you fear death, you don't live life to its fullest you die a bit each day instead of seeing those you love and hugging them and realizing how lucky you are to be alive, celebrating and loving being alive. I lost my train of thought, i may edit this later with more after it comes back

[jonathan7]

Several observations.

 

Some individuals seem to be taking Canderis question as a soapbox to preach their particular beliefs, rather than answering his question.

 

Telling someone not to be afraid is a rather silly thing, I would argue, given that fear is irrational and is an emotion. Personally I can be logically aware of one thing and feel something else.

 

As others have said Canderis whatever you believe is a matter of searching, really whatever is true is what we should wish to believe, be that Christianity, Islam, Atheism or something else. The most logical starting point would seem to me to be Agnosticism.

 

Canderis, if I may, here are a few quotes which may well help you on your way;

 

"While spiritual insight or faith is one valid measure in spiritual matters, true spiritual insight never directly contradicts valid intellectual insight or facts in the physical world. Faith may go beyond reason, but does not go against it. It never blatantly contradicts the facts which we perceive with our God-given common sense. Faith and fact point in a single direction. When they do not, something is seriously wrong…A willingness to accept facts as they exist, and to learn to use them to test the views one holds rather than falling back on subjective experience or rationalizations, is the first step towards discovering genuine truth." (Charles Larson, By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus, pp. 177-178)

 

‘Science cannot answer the questions that philosophers – or children – ask: why are we here, what is the point in being alive, how ought we to behave? Genetics has almost nothing to say about what makes us more than machines driven by biology, about what makes us human. These questions maybe interesting, but scientists are no more qualified to comment on them than anyone else.’ 'Language of the Genes', HarperCollins, p.xi.

 

In answer to something Me_Who_Else said;

 

“I think all the great religions of the world-Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam and Communism-both untrue and harmful. It is evident as a matter of logic that, since they disagree, not more than one of them can be true” preface to 'Why I am not a Christian', emphasis mine

 

Of course for me, I love the following quote most;

 

"Before he leaves, you will permit an old man to pontificate. Alors, mademoiselle, there is nothing in the world so damaged that it cannot be repaired by the hand of Almighty God. I encourage you to know this because without this certainty, we should all of us... be mad. Je vous salue, mademoiselle. Au revoir" ‘Appointment with Death’ ITV (a televised version the quote is not in the book, I would presume given that David Suchet is a Christian he added it)

[Canderis]

My problem stems from the fact logic tells me that when you die, there is "nothing". But my mind cannot fathom "nothing", hence why I cannot be full blown atheist because I cannot fathom "something came from nothing", or the big bang theory. Because I cannot grasp this concept, death worries me. As of late my only consolation to this fact has been the law of conservation of energy, but it still does not comfort me as much as I'd like.

[Me_Who_Else]

My problem stems from the fact logic tells me that when you die, there is "nothing". But my mind cannot fathom "nothing", hence why I cannot be full blown atheist because I cannot fathom "something came from nothing", or the big bang theory. Because I cannot grasp this concept, death worries me. As of late my only consolation to this fact has been the law of conservation of energy, but it still does not comfort me as much as I'd like.

 

aha...there is the point. Just because you do not understand or grasp things (i have difficulties grasping the vastness of our universe), have to mean that there is something. The atheist does not believe in a god.

[DuckfromPortal]

My problem stems from the fact logic tells me that when you die, there is "nothing". But my mind cannot fathom "nothing", hence why I cannot be full blown atheist because I cannot fathom "something came from nothing", or the big bang theory. Because I cannot grasp this concept, death worries me. As of late my only consolation to this fact has been the law of conservation of energy, but it still does not comfort me as much as I'd like.

 

My way of thinking is that the universe is cyclical, it starts from its end giving a bang and it ends when all its matter and life come together or come to collide to create the next universe. that how i comprehend it, its always been there and when it dies it'll spawn another

[Canderis]

But how can something never have started?

[supreme kotor]

Even though this is an old thread I was talking with a friend today and fealt like I would share this. It seems that atheism and Christianity bump heads alot so I'll use those two as my example. Lets say man#1 was athiest and man#2 was Christian. Lets day one day Christianity is wrong and atheism is the correct view neither man lost anything. But if one day Christianity is proven true then man#1 lost alot.

[DuckfromPortal]

But how can something never have started?

 

Well it starts itself through its own end and creates a time loop sort of, it's hard to explain. . .

[Canderis]

Well it starts itself through its own end and creates a time loop sort of, it's hard to explain. . .

I know what you mean, I've come up with that before, but it is another concept I cannot comprehend.

 

Even though this is an old thread I was talking with a friend today and fealt like I would share this. It seems that atheism and Christianity bump heads alot so I'll use those two as my example. Lets say man#1 was athiest and man#2 was Christian. Lets day one day Christianity is wrong and atheism is the correct view neither man lost anything. But if one day Christianity is proven true then man#1 lost alot.

 

What if islam is true? Then they both lost a lot. It's not a 2 party system where if you 'believe' your soul is automatically saved if the other one turns to be false. There's a lot of religions out there. Picking one at random in hopes its right is like trying to win the lottery when you don't even know if a single number will be drawn. Plus believing just for the sake of 'maybe it's right' really isn't believing, is it? Its like saying i love you with your fingers crossed.

[Darth Avlectus]

Alright. I'm an atheist. And I hate it. The most frightening thought to me is that when we die, that's it. I can't imagine what true nothing is like. I just cannot grasp it. But unfortunately, because of how my mind works, that is what I believe happens when we die.

 

Perhaps another way of looking at it is that you are left unsatisfied with what you know and realize with harsh reality, intellect, fact? If that was the end-all-be-all, then it would be enough. But it isn't the end-all-be-all.

 

 

I really wish I could believe in something different, a religion or something, just to help make the end a little less scary, but I can't just believe in something to believe in something. I can't do it. I could say I do, but then there's still that thought hidden behind the believing exterior. It's really hard to have a positive look on life and think like this. Does anyone else feel the same way? Can anyone help me change my belief?

 

Well, I've been in a similar place. While I cannot say I completely believe everything in religion, I relaxed my disbelief in the idea there's something more to reality. See, I used to automatically shut it out just because. Then I came to the realization that I was just as strict and lacking for lenience as some theists out there. Now I like to think I'm a happy medium. highly intellectual folk may think me whacky, highly religious folk may call me heretic. I am what I am.

 

Thing is we're different people. I have my reasons I came back to faith. I can share them if you'd like but do realize it isn't going to be easy for me.

 

 

I have met atheists who not only acknowledge spirituality, but profess it because they recognize it is another aspect and dimension to who we are, and thus it is part of our overall health.

 

Can I help you change? That depends. You say you want to, but you can't.

With all due respect: Are you even sure you have any idea what you want?

 

Before you can know what you want, do you even know yourself? How can you be sure? These are things you can answer to me if you want but you need to ask yourself and answer them for yourself. Nobody else can make you believe anything.

 

I want to help you by encouraging you, because I myself am seeking encouragement in this point in my life. In order to do that, you have to meet me halfway.

 

No, I do not have all the answers to any questions you might ask.

[Me_Who_Else]

But how can something never have started?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Universe_from_Nothing

[Alexrd]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Universe_from_Nothing

 

Even Wikipedia showcases the main flaw of that book:

 

"use of the term nothing to refer to a quantum vacuum"

 

Quantum vacuum is not nothing.

[Totenkopf]

Exactly...the only question you really are left with is what is it that always was and didn't need some kind of origin......God or matter/energy.

[Darth Avlectus]

@Canderis: I'm curious to know your sense of self. This thread is about you afterall. So please give me an idea how you see yourself. I ask because while repeatable results and scientific soundness are one thing, ultimately YOU are the only truth you actually know. Nobody else can know what you know like you know it. Life is about your journey to find the truth for yourself.

 

Nobody and nothing can make you believe in anything, or disbelieve for that matter. I think your concerns are very real.

 

 

@ above posts: I don't know if "Super Uniformity" is what this was called, but there was a position out there which states: What is happening has always happened and will always happen. Some see this as a means to explain away supernatural, others merely see it as too similar to God having always existed thus invalid and dismissible as such.

 

Theories of Energy transfer IMO is ironically not all that different from reincarnation--in fact I joke it is the atheist version of reincarnation.

 

 

 

Lastly:

This isn't so much a reply to J7 as it's reading over J7's post I see something I have to reply to:

by Bertrand Russell,

“I think all the great religions of the world-Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam and Communism-both untrue and harmful. It is evident as a matter of logic that, since they disagree, not more than one of them can be true” preface to 'Why I am not a Christian', emphasis [J7's]

 

Curious Judaism, Shintoism, Zen, and others (like political beliefs) didn't make it onto that list.

 

Perhaps Buddhism has qualities which rival religiosity which make it understandable, but the statement of it being a religion is incorrect. It is a philosophy and a way of life, and is compatible (or at least can be) with religions. Both objectively and in my personal experience, Buddhists don't worship him as a God, but rather Bhudda means 'elightened one' or 'one with highest enlightenment'.

 

There have been Christian and Moslem Samurai.

Shaolin teachings originally came from Bhuddist monks, their ways are compatible with religions like Christianity and Moslem too.

 

Zen, like Buddhism, is much the same in that regard. It's (in summary) about balance and concerns itself with the actual, with what is.

 

And don't forget atheists can practice Buddhism and Zen as well!

 

Also, anyone who thinks Buddhism is just all about peace and pacifism are very very naive about just what extremes the Yin-Yang covers. I'd suggest a trip to visit the world tree in person--then come back and talk about it. I'll just leave it at that.

[Canderis]

@Canderis: I'm curious to know your sense of self. This thread is about you afterall. So please give me an idea how you see yourself. I ask because while repeatable results and scientific soundness are one thing, ultimately YOU are the only truth you actually know. Nobody else can know what you know like you know it. Life is about your journey to find the truth for yourself.

 

Nobody and nothing can make you believe in anything, or disbelieve for that matter. I think your concerns are very real.

When I created this thread I was in a very different mindset than I am in now. I was actually quite depressed and it caused me to think about this subject a lot. Since then I have not been depressed really, but the though still comes to mind often. Saying death is my greatest fear would be a false statement, my biggest fear is 'nothing'. That 'nothing' is what follows death. I'm afraid of that because it is a concept my Mind cannot grasp, what is true nothingness.

 

This is all I know to say to answer that question, but I not afraid to say more. I'm just not sure what other information about myself is needed for this conversation.

 

 

Lastly:

This isn't so much a reply to J7 as it's reading over J7's post I see something I have to reply to:

 

 

Curious Judaism, Shintoism, Zen, and others (like political beliefs) didn't make it onto that list.

 

Perhaps Buddhism has qualities which rival religiosity which make it understandable, but the statement of it being a religion is incorrect. It is a philosophy and a way of life, and is compatible (or at least can be) with religions. Both objectively and in my personal experience, Buddhists don't worship him as a God, but rather Bhudda means 'elightened one' or 'one with highest enlightenment'.

 

There have been Christian and Moslem Samurai.

Shaolin teachings originally came from Bhuddist monks, their ways are compatible with religions like Christianity and Moslem too.

 

Zen, like Buddhism, is much the same in that regard. It's (in summary) about balance and concerns itself with the actual, with what is.

 

And don't forget atheists can practice Buddhism and Zen as well!

 

Also, anyone who thinks Buddhism is just all about peace and pacifism are very very naive about just what extremes the Yin-Yang covers. I'd suggest a trip to visit the world tree in person--then come back and talk about it. I'll just leave it at that.

May I ask, are you buddhist?