Mission: Bring LF Back to Life

[Lynk Former]

Reading over that thread now... it's almost like the staff members are a military dictatorship conspiring to enslave the civilian population and there are civilian revolutionaries poised to take over and form a righteous civilian government to instate sweeping reforms for the good of everyone.

 

This is exactly why this place should just simply be about video games and nothing more.

 

Everything spiraled out of control when people started to get way too serious about this place. Video games = fun. All of this politics crap got in the way of that and ended up taking away any sense of fun this place ever had.

 

After all, without all of the politics talk, who would've cared about whether a moderator talked to a member in a private space if all that they'd ever talked about in public on the forum was video games? No one would have cared... and how do I know this? Because before The Senate and Kavar's, when people did just talk about video games all day, many people formed different friendship groups and no one cared. Staff and members interacted on many different levels inside and out of LF and it was all find and dandy because the only thing going through anyones minds was the constant discussion of video games.

 

As soon as we started to talk about more than just that, started going into the arena of politics and the like, all of these conspiracy theories and accusations of various things started popping up.

 

We went from talking about video games to accusing each other of "forum treason"...

 

Of course, while it has caused a problem, the bigger issues isn't the forum itself, rather with LucasArts. Crazies have come and gone from LF all the time in its prime, but it didn't really matter because during its hayday, LucasArts was still producing a number of games worth mentioning and lots of new people were coming in. There was a lot of activity everywhere on the forum and everyone went about their business.

 

However, things began to stagnate when LucasArts fell silent and stopped producing new games worth even talking about. New membership slowed down to barely nothing and the talk of video games fell almost silent. The people who were left banded together and stuck around for whatever reason and the talk of video games began to die down as well, at the same time while video games became a background topic, talk of politics and other more personal topics came into the foreground.

 

All of that ended up accumulating to that whole conspiracy asshattery, staff vs members, talks of cliques and such. Hell, the people who accused others of forming cliques were forming their own cliques in a glorious orgy of hypocracy, it was great.

 

So yeah, personally, I would like to change this place, get rid of the things that have brought us down and go back to the entire point of the LucasArts Fan Network. 1. Discuss and enjoy the legacy left behind by LucasArts and look forward to future Star Wars games and 2. Video games in general.

 

Also, for those of you who have ever wondered about what anyone on Skype talks about... we mostly talk about one thing. VIDEO GAMES. AMAZING!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who actually plays and enjoys video games around here a lot of the time. Am I?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Also, just in case anyone is wondering. Yes, LF has always been a "military dictatorship"... this is NOT a democracy nor will it ever be a democracy. That said, we're also not trying to enslave anyone, all we've ever tried to do here as staff is run a bunch of fan sites and a fan forum about LucasArts and... you guessed, allow people to talk about VIDEO GAMES.

[Sith Sizzle]

EDIT: Yes, LF has always been a "military dictatorship"... this is NOT a democracy nor will it ever be a democracy.

always been a Galactic Empire*

NOT a Republic*

[adamqd]

This is the first Forum I ever became an actual member of, and I've come here nearly every day since, there may not be new games, it may be a pretty labyrinthine set up (several different sites glued together with spread out pockets of users) But sometimes , I want to discuss whether Revan was more powerful than Sidious, or just read old threads. But I do think we need an overhaul, we need to make one unified forum and just have subforums for our beloved games but with an emphasis on including or promoting a more general Lucas fandom... So we are still Lucasforums but someone who likes the comics and novels will come here too.

[Totenkopf]

Frankly, a lot of the meltdown occurred while I sat on the sidelines. While I didn't trust some staff people to be fair, I figured that most of them were based on my experiences dealing w/them. I agree there was a certain amount of paranoia floating around, some justified some not. However, I don't agree that the forum should ONLY be about video games b/c that is too restrictive in the end (even if the politics stuff is dumped, there're still other things to talk about). Still, if everyone (staff and forumites alike) show each other mutual respect, there's no reason all the bs ever have to occur again. Anytime someone has a strong opinion about something (including vidya) there's potential for conflict b/c people get their noses out of joint over just about anything. Frankly, I always thought the staff was a communist dictatorship that saw the rest of us as proles to be abused and manipulated at will.

[Pho3nix]

You make some fair points there Lynk... that said, I do believe discussions about politics, religion and other assorted personal views would pop up regardless of subforums like Kavar's. Once a forum gets big enough It's bound to attract all sorts of people, even those who enjoy debating about "heavier" issues while taking a break from all the vidya discussion. Godwin's law and all, y'all!

 

The debates haven't been all bad either, I remember particularly enjoying posts by SkinWalker in the Senate for example - learned a lot from that dude. Maybe some pruning is at hand though, we definitely need some positive changes around here and I'd be happy to help out as well if I can.

[Canderis]

I don't enter kavar's often but I have on the rare occasion I needed advice that the limited perspective of the people I know in real life couldn't give me. The people of this forum have been almost like a family to me and its one of the few places on the Internet I trust to at least try and help. Even though Im not active there I would be saddened to see it close down.

 

This is still my stance on kavar's. Maybe we should remove the strictly political debate part of it, but I still believe we need a place for serious topics. Most people don't want to see them, but they'll show up in one place or another. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps the moderation unit for that section could do bans from that particular part of the forum. If they get too rowdy and 3 moderators see that and think it is significant, they get locked out of that forum. I don't really know how bad it gets in there but I know we have to have some section for serious topics.

[Lynk Former]

In regards to "only talking about video games"... I didn't mean that so strictly to mean ONLY video games and nothing else. Pop culture topics, comics, music, topics that are of a certain kind are all well and good. There are plenty of things to discuss without going into peoples political beliefs, etc. When we fight over if Indiana Jones is a cooler character than Han Solo and people get into an argument over it, it's not personal, when people start arguing about their religious faith or lack thereof... that opens up a huge nightmare, especially for the staff.

 

You guys have to understand that the staff members are all volunteers who are taking care of this place in their spare time. We're not being paid to do any of this stuff and sure, we're not perfect, but most of the people who have been chosen to become staff members are good people trying to manage this place. And the criticisms you have of the staff? You're right, the staff had no way of properly running a forum with a community like that.

 

But to be perfectly fair, even if the people who were criticising the staff back then and probably still do now put their own people in charge of this entire place, they wouldn't be the right people for the job either.

 

The forum was put into a no-win situation and only made the attrition rate because of the lack of LucasArts activity a lot worse than it probably should have been.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look, the bottom line is that as well intentioned as we were, the staff of a video game forum had no business trying to moderate political discussions, end of story. It may have been fine and dandy for a short period of time, but things escalated out of hand in both The Senate and Kavar's many times... that should tell you something.

 

Finally, if people really feel like they need a Kavar's then I don't see why it can't be off-site and not controlled by the staff of this forum. It doesn't have to be officially connected to LFN, you can tell members from here that if they're interested then there is another forum that a few people have banded together to set up to deal with heavier discussions like this. That way there's a buffer between the lines so that whatever happens on that forum stays on that forum and we can have an easier time talking about much lighter things on this end.

 

 

 

They key here is to figure out what is and isn't appropriate for this video game forum... and we've crossed the lines into places far too inappropriate for this place far too many times.

[Lynk Former]

Also @ Pheonix: The issue isn't that these topics would pop up any way even if places like Kavar's didn't exist. The issue is that we escalated those kinds of topics into a major point of focus and attention by creating a subforum dedicated to them.

 

The very act of creating subforums dedicated to those kinds of topics encouraged certain people to stay who hold certain values. So right now we have a lot of people in here who value a place like Kavar's... and while I personally don't have a problem with anyone here, I would rather people who valued talking about video games and couldn't care any less about politics to find there way here and decide to stay... that is what we need the most right now and in the future.

[Tommycat]

Here's the problem with removing places like Kavars. If there isn't that place, it'll spill over to places where it is harder for others to ignore. And really, there are some good topics in there that promote thought. Sure there is nastiness, but that happens when you have differing political views, and two people who would likely agree, but are having difficulty explaining that point to each other. And of course there are those people who are diametrically opposed on issues. I love reading about video games. They just don't inspire me to post about them. According to your assessment, I should go, because a place like Kavars has me stay.

[The Doctor]

I've had my issues with this place. Boy, have I had issues. But I'm not the stunted, frustrated adolescent I was back in 2005. I genuinely lament the potential friendships I let my immaturity prevent me from making with some really awesome people. There was actually a time I'd have loved to see this place fail, because all I cared about was my own selfish satisfaction. That's nowhere near the case anymore - I feel I owe this community, its members, and its leaders something in return for all the drama I've inspired over the last 8 years. Drama that likely only still matters to me, probably.

 

I think part of what keeps an online community thriving is the sense of... well, community. The very thing that's kept many of our older members, myself included, coming back even just as lurkers is what we need to focus on in order to make this place hum again. It has to be about more than the games and movies. Anything we can do to encourage the forging of relationships with the people behind the avatars should be our top priority.

 

I feel we need something a little more personal sometimes than the "Getting to Know You" thread. I know the old SWKnights website had a chatroom, and I know that many members forged friendships through it that stand quite apart from LucasForums itself now. And yes, I'm aware that one or more the people in this group became a problem for a number of members who felt excluded, alienated, paranoid, blah blah drama blah. The point is that it was not the existence of these friendships that led to the ensuing drama. The problem was that these perfectly wonderful people were forced to take their discussions and growing social circle to a more technologically reliable medium inaccessible directly from the forums themselves, creating the illusion of an exclusionist clique. If we could find a more reliable way of engaging each other in chatroom style discussions, I think that alone could go a long way towards making the community feel a lot warmer and more approachable - as it is now, all a new member sees is the dozens of different message boards each with a dozen or more areas with hundreds or thousands of topics. It's a little intimidating making your first post, regardless of how you do it. It's a lot easier for someone to say hi in a chatroom and get their feet wet, as it were, before diving into the forums themselves. I know for a fact that such chat interfaces exist for vBulletin, as I've been a member of vB forums that've used them in the past. There must be one that would allow for friendly, open conversation with simple moderation tools.

 

Another important element towards community building is to eliminate the mysticism and stigma, perceived or otherwise, surrounding moderation - and with it the drama that's so often ensued from moderation decisions here over the years. Now, I'm not saying turn the community into some sort of "E-mocracy" or whatever. But LF is one of the oddest forums I've ever seen as far as the attitude towards moderation is concerned. Everything done by moderators is a closely guarded secret, labelled as irrelevant to the community at large and not a topic to be discussed. And sure, maybe that's how it should be. I mean, it doesn't matter to StarWarsFan1337 that BobbyFett12 got banned for pirating Jedi Academy. But the fact is that you don't have to make the moderator's boards and discussions visible to all members to be open about the resulting decisions. Take a look at the Nexus forums, for example. Warnings, bans, rule and policy changes, etc. are all posted in locked threads in a public forum, visible - but not open - to all members. It lets the average member feel informed and trusted rather than condescended to, without giving them licence to debate any and every decision a moderator could make. It may seem like a little thing, but it goes a long way towards building a much needed trust and respect between members and moderators, which no one can deny has been a sensitive and recurring issue here in the past.

 

I could be accused of bias when it comes to the creative boards here at LF. They're where I spent a great deal of my time over the years and where I met a number of people who are still my friends today. But I think part of what drags that section down is the stigma surrounding fan fiction, fan art, and text-based roleplaying. These kinds of boards need more than just someone to enforce the rules - I mean, the rules are pretty minimal in such boards. Basically so long as you don't involve genitals, your post is basically in the clear. What they need is leaders. Story builders to inspire new worlds and characters (Star Wars/LucasArts related or otherwise), community organisers to properly coordinate contests and events, and experienced artists/authors with the tools to help people who want to become better at what they enjoy. Make these boards a destination, not just a side show or extra feature. A properly cultivated creative community can stimulate any themed discussion boards. Let a creative community grow around and expand on an existing idea or universe, and you've got the makings of a thriving forum for years to come.

 

In the same vein, a community focussing on any specific theme - be it gaming, movies, television, or whatever - needs leaders who do more than just enforce the rules. And I don't think this community's leaders have been given the proper tools to be leaders beyond rule-related buttons. Disney's acquisition of LucasArts is probably the biggest news to happen to Star Wars since the prequel trilogy, and the news was broken in the form of a link to a third party website, in three or four different threads scattered across multiple forums about different elements of the same basic thing. I guess this comes down to the forum structure that's already been acknowledged multiple times as being outdated. But it's more than that - not only should we have one place where all discussions about these different elements can be seen at once, but we need people who will actually gather information as vital to the community's interest and tell people about it themselves rather than simply posting a link to a third party website and inviting comments. We should be the place people use as a source for such information, not a place where we say "I'll believe it when a reputable source says something". We should be a reputable source.

 

That's all I can think of for now. Though I'll definitely have the matter on my mind over the coming weeks, for sure. I'm definitely eager to help this place become a destination for fans again. It's a shadow of what it once was, but it's not too late to restore it to its glory days again.

[Lynk Former]

The Doctor's post has been moved from the "Want to help to create a new, better LucasArts Fan Network?" thread due to the obvious reason that I didn't want to turn that thread into a debate.

 

 

@ The Doctor: I'm curious... where are these other forums that have complete transparency when it comes to moderation where the moderators activities are public for the entire world to see? I would actually like to have links posted to these forums because you make it sound as if this is a common thing even when I have never in my life have seen any web community run in this manner.

 

It's a big internet, so I'm sure you can come up with many examples that I haven't even seen or considered that clearly show what you're talking about.

 

 

 

@ Tommycat: I'm terrible to bringing across what I'm trying to say, so I'm sure it seems that way. What I'm trying to say is that the overall forum culture started off valuing the discussion of video games, star wars and popular culture but slowly turned into a community that valued political discussion above all else.

 

While I have no problems with the people here who value political discussion above lighter topics, I feel that if we are to move forward as a community, we need to encourage new users who value discussion of video games as the top priority so we can change the overall forum culture back to what it was.

 

The reason why the forum culture has changed to a more political one is because, for years, we haven't had a peep out of LucasArts about any game worth talking about until it finally died and had to resort to other topics to survive. This is why I recommended to other staff members that we needed to keep Kavar's and The Senate around a few years back despite the fact that it turns the cultural direction of this place into a direction it shouldn't be going.

 

However for the future of LFN, we can't continue down that political path and we desperately need to encourage that video game focus so it is top priority again if we are to renew this entire network as a network dedicated to video games and the people who enjoy them.

 

 

The Doctor was saying how we need to restore this place back to its glory days. That's what I have in mind too, though in my mind, the glory days came a little earlier, when the culture and community valued the discussion of video games above all else, not the other way around.

[Jamps]

I've always enjoyed LF. Obviously, I haven't been an avid poster after all these years but I've been a reader (lurker?) on a regular basis. My favorite part about LF is the discussion of Star Wars games. I love reading the thoughts of those who also enjoyed KOTOR back in it's heyday, and over the years I've been involved in the Classic Games section with Alexrd, a forum member who I respect greatly. (Also, looking back at my posts, its scary seeing the teenager me's spelling and grammer...)

 

I'll admit, it seems LF has been on the decline. This makes me sad because it has been an enjoyable part of my internet browsing since 2004. I've seen the controversies that some say has caused a rift in the community, but I believe that Lucasarts' demise has had a greater effect of members losing interest in the community. Hopefully we will see some great things out of Disney... Regardless, I feel I should start posting more...

[Lynk Former]

@ Jamps: I feel that in a strange way, the death of LucasArts will actually end up being good for this network since we can dedicate it to the remembrance of a much loved developer and its legacy as well as looking forward to future works by a Disney owned LucasFilm.

[Totenkopf]

Interestingly enough, in the end, it's the paucity of games that has caused your vision to suffer, Lynk and not so much KC or even things like the senate. There are, what, close to 1000 people who've joined this forum (and I'd wager the % that left over political bs is a small one compared to those who've left b/c of lack of game content). Given that the subjects exist in different forums and people are free to browse the areas that interest them, the only real rule is the spin on Vegas.....what happens in KC/Senate stays there. Most of us are mature enough to be able to seperate the various areas and act accordingly. I think there's a place for both and perhaps if the developers would pump out more product, there'd be more to talk about on the gaming front as a result.

[Alexrd]

I love reading the thoughts of those who also enjoyed KOTOR back in it's heyday, and over the years I've been involved in the Classic Games section with Alexrd, a forum member who I respect greatly.

 

Thanks. The respect is mutual.

[The Doctor]

@ The Doctor: I'm curious... where are these other forums that have complete transparency when it comes to moderation where the moderators activities are public for the entire world to see? I would actually like to have links posted to these forums because you make it sound as if this is a common thing even when I have never in my life have seen any web community run in this manner.

 

It's a big internet, so I'm sure you can come up with many examples that I haven't even seen or considered that clearly show what you're talking about.

 

The best example I could offer up would be the Nexus. But I believe you misunderstand my general meaning. Moderation is not an open book, fully transparent affair. Rather, the end result of the process is announced publicly rather than simply being done and forgotten. When a user is punished for a violation of the forum rules, the community at large is told specifically who and why. It's not like there's a constant news ticker of banned members or anything of course; and the community is not permitted to protest or discuss the issue - it's not a democratic process. Nor should it be. But the information is there and accessible. I know from personal experience here that when a member is banned the community at large rarely knows why, and isn't allowed to ask. Members simply vanish, and we're not allowed to ask why.

 

Another forum that had a similar practice was KotORForce. There, however, things were a little too public - announcements were not locked, and members consistently protested and discussed the issue long after the fact. Add to that an unsteady Administration team and uninterested moderators, and these threads could go unclosed for days, even weeks at a time. That forum sadly no longer exists, as the administrator gave up in the face of low registration almost two years ago now.

 

I've not been on other boards that announced bans or other punishments in quite the same way, but nor have I frequented a forum where merely asking about another member's ban was a bannable offense. It can be unnerving, that's all. And like I said, the best way to build a community is to build a trust between the staff and the members. Such a simple, straightforward approach goes miles towards doing this and harms no one.

[Lynk Former]

@ Tot: I know, I've said that the lack of LA/SW games is the true issue in a previous post. What I'm saying in my more recent posts is that going forward, if we want to renew LFN, we need to refocus on video games first and foremost. Perhaps a serious discussion forum may re-enter the picture in the future, but in terms of renewing this place, we need to get the cultural dynamic back to video games.

 

We no longer have the staff or resources to have our focus split any more, and if we are to see this place renewed, we need to narrow down the focus of this place to match the theme of this network.

 

Then, after we have established the next generation community base, that is the time when things like a serious discussion forum can be reintroduced and the lessons of the past can be learned from.

 

I do agree with the whole Vegas aspect you're talking about... it's a great ideal, though we all know that's not how it turned out in practice. Perhaps in the future, when we reintroduce a serious discussion forum, the moderating staff for that forum will be totally independent of the rest of the site forum so that we can avoid any conflicts of interest.

 

Just an idea...

[Lynk Former]

@ The Doctor: That an extremely helpful link and clears up a lot of misunderstandings. I wish we'd had those kinds of examples to begin with though... a lot of the time people have been discussing vague ideas without actually producing any reference to what they actually mean.

 

I totally get where you're coming from and I agree... because that's kind of how things used to be done. However, unlike The Nexus forums, we had the additional hurdle of having different moderation teams from what use to be individual Star Wars game forums. For example, the staff at RogueSquadron.net were totally independent from the staff at JediKnight.net and because of the different community dynamics and expectations. We found it difficult to really work together in many ways since the view was that these were all individual communities and that each moderating team couldn't interfere with a team of another community.

 

And believe me when I say, I also tried to get these kinds of moderating staff reforms happening and for a time I wasn't quite popular with some other staff members because of my views and my push for change away from what is an old and archaic system.

 

 

 

There is hope for reform though, as long as the site consolidation/renewal I'm proposing actually happens. After all, how many of the moderation staff do you think are still in active service? The answer is: not very many at all. You may see some old faces of staff members here and there sometimes, but a lot of the time they're here posting as members rather than engaging in moderation activities.

 

We have a good opportunity to lay down new rules and processes for the staff because along with the community refocus, I totally agree that we need a staff refocus as well for the new, renewed LFN.

[The Doctor]

@ The Doctor: That an extremely helpful link and clears up a lot of misunderstandings. I wish we'd had those kinds of examples to begin with though... a lot of the time people have been discussing vague ideas without actually producing any reference to what they actually mean.

I'm pretty sure I was one of those people once. I'm glad I could actually provide something concrete this time though.

 

I totally get where you're coming from and I agree... because that's kind of how things used to be done. However, unlike The Nexus forums, we had the additional hurdle of having different moderation teams from what use to be individual Star Wars game forums. For example, the staff at RogueSquadron.net were totally independent from the staff at JediKnight.net and because of the different community dynamics and expectations. We found it difficult to really work together in many ways since the view was that these were all individual communities and that each moderating team couldn't interfere with a team of another community.

I suppose that's a valid point. One I hadn't really considered, to be completely honest with you. But if we're talking about a reconstructed, united LucasForums network in the coming years, then perhaps efforts should be taken to shape the moderation outlook to a specific community goal, rather than trying to fit the community into a moderation style.

 

And believe me when I say, I also tried to get these kinds of moderating staff reforms happening and for a time I wasn't quite popular with some other staff members because of my views and my push for change away from what is an old and archaic system.

I think I was vaguely aware of some sort of rift there, but I was in and out of the forum at the time.

[Totenkopf]

@ Tot: I know, I've said that the lack of LA/SW games is the true issue in a previous post. What I'm saying in my more recent posts is that going forward, if we want to renew LFN, we need to refocus on video games first and foremost. Perhaps a serious discussion forum may re-enter the picture in the future, but in terms of renewing this place, we need to get the cultural dynamic back to video games.

 

We no longer have the staff or resources to have our focus split any more, and if we are to see this place renewed, we need to narrow down the focus of this place to match the theme of this network.

 

Then, after we have established the next generation community base, that is the time when things like a serious discussion forum can be reintroduced and the lessons of the past can be learned from.

 

I do agree with the whole Vegas aspect you're talking about... it's a great ideal, though we all know that's not how it turned out in practice. Perhaps in the future, when we reintroduce a serious discussion forum, the moderating staff for that forum will be totally independent of the rest of the site forum so that we can avoid any conflicts of interest.

 

Just an idea...

 

Wasn't implying you didn't know that. Just reemphasizing that it's not necessary to throw the serious stuff under the bus. It may just come down to how you advertize your newly revised LFN site as to what kind of crowd you attract. Don't bother mentioning or just downplay it and focus on pushing that it's a game oriented site always looking for new blood to discuss vidya, vidya, vidya uber alles. Afterall, w/1250 or so members, I imagine you can recruit staff w/"field promotions" that you can tailor to specific sections. Besides, it's a relatively tiny % of forumites that go to those sections anyway (or small slice of active posters anyway). Regardless, whatever ya decide on as staff, good luck reenergizing it.

 

Btw......I left you a reply in the Bergeren Colony thread.

[Tommycat]

@ Tommycat: I'm terrible to bringing across what I'm trying to say, so I'm sure it seems that way. What I'm trying to say is that the overall forum culture started off valuing the discussion of video games, star wars and popular culture but slowly turned into a community that valued political discussion above all else.

 

While I have no problems with the people here who value political discussion above lighter topics, I feel that if we are to move forward as a community, we need to encourage new users who value discussion of video games as the top priority so we can change the overall forum culture back to what it was.

 

The reason why the forum culture has changed to a more political one is because, for years, we haven't had a peep out of LucasArts about any game worth talking about until it finally died and had to resort to other topics to survive. This is why I recommended to other staff members that we needed to keep Kavar's and The Senate around a few years back despite the fact that it turns the cultural direction of this place into a direction it shouldn't be going.

 

However for the future of LFN, we can't continue down that political path and we desperately need to encourage that video game focus so it is top priority again if we are to renew this entire network as a network dedicated to video games and the people who enjoy them.

 

 

The Doctor was saying how we need to restore this place back to its glory days. That's what I have in mind too, though in my mind, the glory days came a little earlier, when the culture and community valued the discussion of video games above all else, not the other way around.

 

I understand that, but until there is another SPRPG set in the KotOR universe, the remaining life in the community is discussing other things. I remember this place being rather lively when there was even a hint of a KIII. It's since died to what it is now because it's more interesting to talk about political BS than to touch on the painful subject of not seeing more KotOR. It's like growing a third arm. At first it's not needed. Then after you get used to having it there, you wouldn't want to get rid of it. Sometimes you think "Hey it would be much easier having shirts made if that third arm was gone." But cutting it off would be weird to you after you get used to having it around. How do you hold your burrito and soda while you're reading a book? I had a point in there somewhere, but now I'm too busy imagining myself with 3 arms....

[Totenkopf]

Just read books you can hold w/one hand.....or alternate the burrito and soda.

[urluckyday]

I think this thread was more or the less what it came down to and more or less settled the matter.

 

It involved wonderful terms like "open civil war", "neo-communist democracy", "gothic mysticist", "disbanding Kavar's", and "festive pagan clockwork".

 

It's certainly fascinating to look back on that, plus see all the people that contributed to that thread that have been banned since then lol

[Tommycat]

It's certainly fascinating to look back on that, plus see all the people that contributed to that thread that have been banned since then lol

 

[The Doctor]

It's certainly fascinating to look back on that, plus see all the people that contributed to that thread that have been banned since then lol

 

To be fair, I think one of those bans was voluntary and another was a long time coming.