POLL: Which version of SOMI do you prefer?

[s-island]

The face of everyone who has read through this thread.

[KestrelPi]

I will say, to me Mancomb is the most strikingly different one, the one who most arguably looks like a different character. In the VGA version I always imagined him as a sort of friendly-ish (for a pirate) old sort. Even though he's making fun of you a bit, he is helpful and has quite kind eyes. The EGA version doesn't hit me that way at all, he just seems like Drunken Pirate Bar Patron #1. Which maybe was the intention, but it's not quite how I imagined things (and another reason why the SE's ridiculous Mancomb caricature bugged me. I think all the other portraits are much more similar between versions, in the character they convey.

[BaronGrackle]

44 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

If you can't agree that EGA SOMI looks less photorealistic than VGA SOMI then I think you're at an impasse with reality 🤷‍♂️

 

It doesn't matter the REASON why one looks more cartoony than the other, the bottom line is that one looks more cartoony than the other... 

 

 

(and it is still possible to look more realistic in 16 colours)

 

 

 

 

 

Always Mancomb; never the others.

 

Estevan, Cobb, Smirk, Carla, Elaine, the Head of the Navigator, LeChuck via blimpcam, and Guybrush all come off as more "realistic" in EGA than Mancomb here. Mancomb's the one who makes me think of the Dick Tracy film characters... he's got a fatter face than we'd expect, but it's not impossible. It's not invoking the cartooned geometries of Curse and later games.

 

 

55 minutes ago, Thrik said:

It’s not as conspicuous as MI2 but SMI definitely has the cartoon-like moments. The most obvious is the fight on the mansion, which features comic book-style graphical exclamations. There’s also the fact Guybrush gets fired out of cannons straight into solid wood and it doesn’t bloody kill him. Not to mention that he falls off a cliff that collapses Wile E. Coyote-style and then bounces back up off a rubber tree. 😄

Oh, it's filled with cartoony actions and physical invulnerabilities. Indy 3 also has this. Apart from "seeing stars", Indy will pause when a cliff is opened beneath him... before falling in. The end of the game sees a decapitates head bouncing like a ball across the screen.

 

It plays into the contrast, like a Three Stooges bit, or the ending scenes in Roger Rabbit where Eddie takes hits like he's a toon himself.

Edited August 16, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[Thrik]

I personally think the EGA close-ups look more stylised and less realistic compared to VGA, but I could buy that the artist intended them to look as realistic as possible, constrained only by the extremely limited medium and/or their own skill.

 

Purcell admitted in an interview that he struggled to do the more realistic art asked of him for the SMI cover, and tended to veer more towards his natural stylised look. You can see this to an extent on the cover:

 

 

But even more so with the code wheel:

 

 

I’ve also seen concept art that has this sort of look — grounded in realism but clearly more stylised than the close-ups seen in VGA.

 

Now, to be honest I don’t know if Purcell did the close-ups. But I can totally imagine that he did, or if not then a similar style was aimed for as seen in those images I just posted. My mind at least can very easily fill in the blanks between that sort of art and the EGA close-ups which of course are severely constrained in colour. (See also: EGA vs VGA code wheel screen.)

 

I also agree that Manbrush is a bit unusual compared to the other characters. I think they just missed the mark with him, possibly because of the cheeks. Cobb is also a bit anomalous because he’s just a cameo.

[BaronGrackle]

In terms of subdivisions to the graphics on the poll?

 

I prefer VGA looks overall, but EGA Estevan for his infinite despair, and Special Edition Carla SPRITE for adding her red headband which appears on my preferred VGA closeup of her.

[ThunderPeel2001]

1 hour ago, BaronGrackle said:

Always Mancomb; never the others.

 

It's true for the others, too. It's just if you're going to pick one as an example, you may as well put the most egregious one.

 

One of these images looks more photo realistic than the other. And like say, it doesn't matter WHY (limitations of a 16 color palette, etc), or even the intention of the artist, it's just a statement of fact: One of these looks more photorealistic than the other!

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[Thrik]

I think we might be starting to venture into debating a point nobody really made, or meant to anyway.

 

It goes without saying the first picture is the more photorealistic at face value, but we’re really talking about whether MI1’s close-ups were meant to look realistic behind the glorious veneer of EGA limitations, right?

 

In that respect I feel we’re no further along, and to be honest I don’t think we ever will be unless one of the artists confirms the close-ups were meant to resemble the code wheel art or something. Maybe it’s time for some good old Twitter molestation.

 

(Or we could focus our energies on more important matters such as the precise dimensionality of alleys…)

[Benny]

Also the closeups are about 0.5% of the graphics in the game. Surely everyone loves that EGA sunset.

[ThunderPeel2001]

38 minutes ago, s-island said:

The face of everyone who has read through this thread.

 

more like

 

[ThunderPeel2001]

48 minutes ago, Thrik said:

we’re really talking about whether MI1’s close-ups were meant to look realistic behind the glorious veneer of EGA limitations, right?

 

 

How could anyone debate such a thing, though? Only Purcell knows what he intended.

 

So, I honestly don't think we are. I think the issue BaronGrackle has is that anyone could ever call the EGA graphics less photorealistic than the VGA ones. Period.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[BaronGrackle]

21 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

 

How could anyone debate such a thing, though? Only Purcell knows what he intended.

 

So, I honestly don't think we are. I think the issue BaronGrackle has is that anyone could ever call the EGA graphics less photorealistic than the VGA ones. Period.

 

 

I would stop, but at the invocation of my name a few times...

 

I do believe the VGA is more photorealistic than the EGA. 
 

I believe this is because the VGA had more color potential than the EGA.

 

And this EGA picture of Guybrush?

 

1 hour ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

It's true for the others, too. It's just if you're going to pick one as an example, you may as well put the most egregious one.

 

One of these images looks more photo realistic than the other. And like say, it doesn't matter WHY (limitations of a 16 color palette, etc), or even the intention of the artist, it's just a statement of fact: One of these looks more photorealistic than the other!

 

I believe this EGA picture of Guybrush is equally as photorealistic as that EGA picture of Indiana Jones from Indy 3.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[Thrik]

1 hour ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

How could anyone debate such a thing, though? Only Purcell knows what he intended.

 

So, I honestly don't think we are. I think the issue BaronGrackle has is that anyone could ever call the EGA graphics less photorealistic than the VGA ones. Period.

 

 

Well… exactly! Which is why I said it’ll probably never end unless that happens. Maybe he can bring clarity, like Ackley to the much-loved verb coin discussion.

 

I think ultimately this discussion was about artistic intent, even though it seems to have been deviated to being more ‘does VGA look better from a photorealism point of view’.

[ThunderPeel2001]

1 hour ago, BaronGrackle said:

I believe this EGA picture of Guybrush is equally as photorealistic as that EGA picture of Indiana Jones from Indy 3.

 

 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree and move on with our lives.

[BaronGrackle]

32 minutes ago, Thrik said:

Well… exactly! Which is why I said it’ll probably never end unless that happens. Maybe he can bring clarity, like Ackley to the much-loved verb coin discussion.

And at some point, you even get to a level of intent vs. perception.

 

Forget about BaronGrackle's opinion for now. Instead, think back to one of the posts quoted in the badmouthing VGA thread: https://www.resetera.com/threads/return-to-monkey-island-announced-by-devolver-digital-lucasfilm-games-2022.569392/page-20

 

Quote

Surprisingly few people have seen the original EGA portraits and they’re always worth sharing. Guybrush and Elaine look way more like the people on the front of the box (since these closeups were drawn by Steve Purcell).

 

Forget about realism vs. cartoonism for just a moment. Do you think EGA Guybrush looks like the guy on the box of Secret?

You might say this Guybrush looks like a cartoon, too. Maybe Steve Purcell drew them both as cartoons. Yeah, when you stare at this guy, he's not a photo at all.

 

Except... we also have this:

 

And at some point? Yeah, that Purcell art might not technically be a photograph. But it's depicting someone who could be a real guy. Brush.

 

9 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree and move on with our lives.

 

Fair! Fair.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[Niemandswasser]

3 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

It's true for the others, too. It's just if you're going to pick one as an example, you may as well put the most egregious one.

 

One of these images looks more photo realistic than the other. And like say, it doesn't matter WHY (limitations of a 16 color palette, etc), or even the intention of the artist, it's just a statement of fact: One of these looks more photorealistic than the other!

 

Neither of these has ever struck me as aiming for photorealism. The first is an attempt to depict a young man within the limitations of a 16-color palette; the second seems like it's meant to mimic an oil painting. That said, they both seem to have the same goal in mind: to give you as clear a picture as possible of what he looks like, given the abilities and limits of the current medium. The style in both is as "realistic" as it's allowed to be, in that Guybrush's proportions and features aren't exaggerated beyond what's necessary to make them visible. I think the crux of the argument is that if the first one had had more colors available to it, the goal would have been something more like the second one than not.

[Scummbuddy]

When do we get a version of MI 1 with all of the closeups of Guybrush replaced by photos of @Dmnkly ??

[ThunderPeel2001]

24 minutes ago, Niemandswasser said:

the second seems like it's meant to mimic an oil painting

 

I think that's overstating it...

 

Quote

It’s hard to believe today, but I actually painted these with a mouse.  Yep, a MOUSE.   Wacom tablets were not a thing yet.  Using a mouse was about as precise as painting with a bar of soap, yet here they are—complete with tiny highlights in the eyes.  Just shows what you can do when you don’t know any better.

 

[Thrik]

 

Not particular sure why I bothered doing this but I was curious how well they matched up after looking at the cover art earlier.

 

I thought it mildly striking that they line up so well, particularly the eyes. It supports my belief that the EGA close-ups were based on the Purcell style seen on the cover and (to a lesser extent) illustrations such as the ‘dress a pirate’ and code wheel. 😅

[Niemandswasser]

11 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

I think that's overstating it...

 

 

Apologies for being obtuse, but I don't see how the quote you've shared relates to my impression (heh) that the look is oil-painting inspired. All it says to me is that it's really impressive what he pulled off with pretty rudimentary equipment.

[BaronGrackle]

New MUSIC based homework assignment for everyone:

 

Buy a ship from Stan. Instead of using the CD theme or silence, play variations of his Go Tell Aunt Rhody theme. See if you like any results.

Edited August 16, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[Wally B.]

4 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

New MUSIC based homework assignment for everyone:

 

Buy a ship from Stan. Instead of using the CD theme or silence, play variations of his Go Tell Aunt Rhodie theme. See if you like any results.

How about replacing it with the Stan theme from Monkey2? 

[BaronGrackle]

1 minute ago, Wally B. said:

How about replacing it with the Stan theme from Monkey2? 

Ahem!  https://mixnmojo.com/news/The-musical-cover-up-continues-with-Stans-theme

[ThunderPeel2001]

1 hour ago, Niemandswasser said:

Apologies for being obtuse, but I don't see how the quote you've shared relates to my impression (heh) that the look is oil-painting inspired. All it says to me is that it's really impressive what he pulled off with pretty rudimentary equipment.

 

I don't think at any point did Iain McCaig stop and think to himself, "well damn, that looks too much like a gauche painting... time to start over!"

 

He used painting techniques, but I don't think he was trying to make it look specifically like an oil painting... hence me staying that you might be overstating it a bit. But I agree that he used his illustrator background when working with the limited 256 colour palette.

 

Quote

Everyone was super excited by the new 256 color palette (they formerly had 16), but it seemed barbaric to me compared to the virtually unlimited  palette I’d been using as a traditional illustrator. To compensate, I painted with pixel dots of complementary color next to each other which creates a visual blending in the eye of the viewer, a trick the Impressionists exploited to great effect in their paintings.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

4 hours ago, Bennyboy said:

Also the closeups are about 0.5% of the graphics in the game. Surely everyone loves that EGA sunset.

I respect the EGA sunset, in that it does a lot with that limited palette. But I just don't love it. I find it difficult to get past the fact that it's still limited by a set of 16 colours that I think are pretty ugly in combination:

 

It's not that I have anything particularly against working with limitations. I like chiptune music. I like some kinds of low poly stuff. It's just I really dislike the default EGA palette and when I see it used well half my brain thinks 'gee, this is cleverly done' and the other half of my brain thinks 'I sure wish it was using a different palette, though' and the latter thing tends to win in the end.

[Niemandswasser]

23 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

I don't think at any point did Iain McCaig stop and think to himself, "well damn, that looks too much like a gauche painting... time to start over!"

I agree, it would be absolutely bonkers to think that happened, and if you could point out a person who so much as implied that it *did*, I'd like to tell them to their face!

 

In all seriousness, though, that McCaig quote you provided about visual blending and Impressionist technique is pretty much direct confirmation that his work on the closeups was inspired in some part by oil painting. I'm more convinced now than I was when I brought it up.