ThunderPeel2001 Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 The makers of CMI had no idea what the ending of MI2 meant either! ~ Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Head Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 why is it official? where's your back up? is it primary or secondary evidence? can you support your allegations? hmm, history A-levels slipped in there, but i still wanna know how you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remi Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 They didn't? News to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Uh... <btiller> I have read a few of them, but this one was all about the amusement park theory for MI1 and MI2, right? <jquest> yeah <btiller> Yes, well I agree with it! Don't think we didn't know this theory when we did CMI, we just thought it was stupid I hope that's not the quote you're talking about as evidence, ThundePeel, as that quote clearly indicates that they completely knew what the ending of MI2 meant, and went another direction with it because they thought MI2's ending was stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabez Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 It’s not just stupid, it’s also very hard to use in a sequel. I wonder what Ron Gilbert had planned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannar85 Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Originally posted by ThunderPeel2001 The makers of CMI had no idea what the ending of MI2 meant either! ~ Johnny You only started this thread, because you wanted more points... I believe... I hope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mex Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Points. It was more fun without um. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPeel2001 Posted February 11, 2003 Author Share Posted February 11, 2003 Jake: How on earth do you come to the conclusion that they completely knew what it meant from that quote?? He merely acknowledges that he knew about it. Btiller: Don't think we didn't know this therory... (Note the word 'theory'. He didn't say, "Don't think we didn't know what the ending really meant"... he said "we knew about this theory". A brief glance at a thesaurus will show you that word 'theory' is synonymous with "idea; speculation; conjecture; belief".) Would it make it clearer if he said: Btiller: Don't think we didn't know this idea... we just thought it was stupid ? What he does say is that he'd heard about the idea and that he thought it was stupid. Maybe it's just me, but that sounds like someone who had an idea given to him and didn't really know what to do with it. Maybe that was too much of a jump, it's just how I read it. But I really don't see how it proves that they "completely knew what the ending of MI2 meant"! Ron Gilbert had planned a sequel from this ending... implying that he knew which direction to take it and hence understood what was REALLY going on. (Sorry, I was bored.) ~ Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remi Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I find it incredibly funny that some people think that the MI1&2 team sat in closed quarters, tight-lipped, not devulging anything about the production of the games before they burn all their design documents. I'm not gonna put words in anybody's mouth, but there could be reasons why ex-LEC employees don't go singing straight out about everything regarding their games. Bill simply answered a question about a theory. And again (and again... and again...): the whole "being a kid" thing was something which was considered for the original MI1 ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPeel2001 Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 Yes, that's very true, however you're overlooking the facts. Bill Tiller says that he didn't even know Dave Grossman's "Secret of Monkey Island" until after CMI came out. It's clear that the original creators then did NOT divulge everything to everyone else in the office! Again, the other Bill Tiller quote is hardly concrete evidence that "they completely knew what the ending of MI2 meant", as Jake put it, in my opinion. (In fact it's quite the opposite, but that's probably just me! ) Anyways, who cares. If you still want to believe that everyone in LEC knew the Secret of MI and what MI's ending actually meant (in terms of a sequel), so be it! ~ Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remi Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I'm sure people started throwing things on Dave when he suggested the Giant Monkey Head being a robot and that he was too embarrassed to admit to coming up with this suggestion in public. Somewhere along the line the EMI guys must have thought it was a great suggestion. :~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 You do know that Larry Ahern, co-designer and writer of Monkey Island 3, was ON THE TEAM OF THE SECOND GAME! Yes! He worked on it! He wasn't off hiding in some closet either, he was in fact working on the same game the notorious "secret holders" Ron, Tim, and Dave, at the same time as they were! Probably even in the same room on some occasions! Oh man, now what? No no, I'm sure Ahern knew too... and, and hid it from Jonathan Ackley and Bill Tiller just to protect the secret!!! Yes that must be it. Heaven forbid they did entirely know, and just decided to take the series a different direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshi Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Originally posted by ThunderPeel2001 (Note the word 'theory'. He didn't say, "Don't think we didn't know what the ending really meant"... he said "we knew about this theory". A brief glance at a thesaurus will show you that word 'theory' is synonymous with "idea; speculation; conjecture; belief".) ~ Johnny because of course BTiller had a dictionary handy whilst doing this interview and was checking every word. this is a general term used all of the time. it may have meant that he had a vaugue idea of what the ending was meant to be or it may have meant that he knew full well what it was meant to be. but it stands that we are having an argument about one single line said by someone who isn't even present in this argument. doesn't that seem a little silly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymipage Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 No, I think it's a good argument. I'll be asking Bill Tiller a few questions (to do with the Chat Event) soon - I'll ask him did he exactaly what he meant when I'm talking to him. Somehow, I think he meant to say what he did. He said theory because that's all it was, an idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 This is silly. The intentions of the original game designers/writers was entirely known to the people writing CMI. Why else would they even bother including similar themes/references (most importantly the Disneyland stuff) if they weren't in on any of it? I thought by now it was pretty much accepted that the original intent of Gilbert and the gang was that you were supposed to take the ending to Monkey Island 2 at face value. It was the plan from the start to make the game be on the border between fantasy, imagination, and reality, but I'm positively sure the "maybe there was a curse put on him!!" line at the end was there a tiny bit for an escape loophole, but mostly just to be funny. In interviews elsewhere (...and in person when we met Bill Tiller at E3, and in person when Mojo talked to Tim Schafer at Double Fine) it was revealed that 1) yes Monkey Island 2 ends just how it says it does, and 2) yes the CMI designers knew exactly what they were doing, and were well aware of the fact that they were altering the course of the series, because (and I'm sure many in here can agree with this one) they didn't at all like the idea of Guybrush more or less just being a kid messing around. Bill Tiller was not trying to dodge the question in that chat interview. I think its ridiculous that his every word is being picked to the bones even more than the games themselves in hopes of finding some sort of fault "proving" that he and the CMI team don't know the "secret." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymipage Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I never said Bill was wrong in what he said and I didn't know he told you he knew what Ron Gilbert meant the secret to be. That's all for now :S I'll write more later (when I have time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 My post wasnt directed at you, mymipage Also see this. Don't pay too much attention, though, you might accidentally get the meaning wrong. The real secret of Monkey Island is that you can believe whatever the hell you want to believe, but if you go telling everone that you know what it is, and are arguing directly against facts stated over and over again in interviews, chats, and face to face with us straight from the people who made it all up, you will be wrong. I'm not saying that there's no debate or discussion to be had on the matter... obviously there's quite a bit going on with the whole thing but saying "oh they don't know, Bill Tiller said they had an idea not that they knew, so that means they didnt know," is silliness. Edit: Also the real REAL secret of Monkey Island is just that there's a giant robot, so I don't know what all the talk is about. Edit of the edit: That last edit was a joke. Please God no retarded "A-ha!"ing at it like I've let slip some big flaw in the whole theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPeel2001 Posted February 13, 2003 Author Share Posted February 13, 2003 Geez! Take it easy man! All I said was that somebody saying "yes, I've heard of that theory" is not definitive proof that "they completely understood the endings meaning". If you can't see that then well, how can we discuss anything? Also I was pointing out the word "theory" because everybody here seems to think it means "fact". I'm sure Bill Tiller has a complete understanding of the English language even if we don't! The real secret of Monkey Island is that you can believe whatever the hell you want to believe, but if you go telling everone that you know what it is, and are arguing directly against facts stated over and over again in interviews, chats, and face to face with us straight from the people who made it all up, you will be wrong. And this is directed at who exactly? I don't recall anyone claiming to understand "the Secret of Monkey Island" (except you of course -- and no, I'm NOT referring to the Dave Grossman quote). What I find most laughable is the biggest argument against the "kid" theory is the fact that Ron Gilbert himself said that the theory was "cold"... yet this is used as "proof" of it being true in "The Revelation" article(!) If you want to discuss "repeated facts stated over and over again in interviews" why don't we start there?? I'm not saying that there's no debate or discussion to be had on the matter... obviously there's quite a bit going on with the whole thing but saying "oh they don't know, Bill Tiller said they had an idea not that they knew, so that means they didnt know," is silliness. This form the person who took that same quote to be definitive proof that the team of CMI (and I quote) "completely knew what it meant". Just because most of the people here seem to have difficultly grasping what the word "theory" actually means doesn't mean Bill Tiller needs a dictionary(!) Anyhoot, on to more interesting things: How do you explain "Chuckie" looking at the camera and letting us know that he really is LeChuck? Is that just a joke too? (I'm honestly asking here, not trying to start another argument.) I really don't see why the Disneyland references aren't just that, references. Of course I've never met Tim Shafer, so what do I know? *sigh* Just to reiterate before I am completely blasted to hell for this; all I ever said was "The makers of CMI had no idea what the ending of MI2 meant either!" A single line of text. That's it. If you wanted to point out that you know differently from other sources, that would have been very helpful! ~ Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remi Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Dude... Seriously... There's no shame in being wrong. No point going on a big rant about it. Unless of course you're proposing that Schafer was lying, which I don't think you are. As for Chuckie looking in the camera? Personally I look at both that and Elaine as a "way out" if they wanted to go a new direction or (possibly even more likely) a hint that reality vs. fantasy might play a bigger role in MI3. Also, the Ron Gilbert chat logs - don't take everything in it for its face value. Gilbert would most likely rather be keelhauled than revealing anything about secrets and further plans for Monkey Island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPeel2001 Posted February 13, 2003 Author Share Posted February 13, 2003 So what's interesting is that "The Revelation's" conclusion should have read: "The designer's original intention seems to have been to make the whole game a kid's dream, however they changed this at the last moment so the series could be continued." Instead of... ""So what's the Secret of Monkey Island", you ask? Fantasy, Imagination. A child's mind." ...which I've never liked (simply because it's far too glib and completely overlooks the evidence to the contrary). Don't get me wrong, I could care less if MI really was really a kid's fantasy (it's actually what I first thought when I completed MI2), but I've simply not been convinced by the evidence I've seen and it especially grates when I see other people blindly believing what they read. Anyhoo, I'd love to read a complete compendium of all the "inside info" you guys have assembled over the years. In quite a contradictory way I'd actually find that more convincing! -- Eep! ~ Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshi Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I now know what the entire monkey island legacy is. Not the secret or the theory, but in metaphorical terms, it's a poem. That's right, a poem. Anyone who's ever done literature and had to analyse a poem would know what I'm talking about. At face value, it's a good poem, you can get quite a lot of meaning and context across from a single reading. But when dissected and analysed fully, you get a completely different meaning from what was first thought. And quite a lot of the time, the metaphors and symbolism were never even intended by the writer of the poem making their poem about something completely different from what it was meant to be. This exact thing is happening here, we're taking every element from the monkey island series and analysing them to the fullest extent, putting them against each other and coming up with theories that were probably never intended by Ron or Tim or any of the other writers and designers on the team. These peoples main aim with these games were to make a couple of funny games. Somehow those two funny games have turned into this. Now ask yourself, why is that? Edit Ahh nostalgia, my more naive days when I thought spelling and grammer were optional. Well, I couldn't read this without making a few alterations on my part. Some mistakes have been kept because you have to capture the essence (whatever that means) but whatever. Love from Joshi 15th April, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymipage Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Bill Tiller replied to my e-mail and answered my pretty straight forward question: ---------------------------- Can I just ask you - what was Ron Gilbert's Secret of Monkey Island? Do you know it? The explanation I heard is that Guybrush was lost in the Pirates Ride at Big Whoop Amusement Park the whole time, imagining the whole adventure. Then Chucky, his mean older brother goes and pulls him back to reality. The end. And that magical lightning coming out of Chucky's eyes and Elaine waiting by the hole on Dinky Island (which sounds a lot like Disney Land) was put there just in case there was to be a Monkey Island 3. The secret is that the MI world is not real. ------------------------------ The answer goes on longer than that but I have to update the BSBC with the 5 questions that others were meant to ask at the chat event and couldn't. So, I'll post the full thing then (tomorrow) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshi Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 exactly, not what everyone was waiting for, but that's the truth of it. the secret was that, but they decided to make CMI. now i really don't think there's any need for argument any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymipage Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 You can see his full answer now if you want - http://www.brimstonebc.com/btchatevent.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMonkeyGuy Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Hello, I'm spanish, pardon for my bad english. I can read english well, but I write english very bad I love Monkey Island and I have read the chat with Tiller. He say that the secret is a boy in a park, but Ron Gilbert said that the secret wasn't a boy in a park in a chat of the page TheScummBar. What yours opinions about this? I think that this is the moment for other chat whith Ron. He must explain a lot of things. Can any page of the mojo comunnity do a chat with con Ron? Grog! See you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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