ArtifeX Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 JK2 suffered from some problems that kept it from acheiving its multiplayer potential. Regardless of how people felt about the game balance, options, fighting system, or general fun of the original game, most of them stuck to the official version because they were unaware that there were other (sometimes better) options available. If Raven/LA wants to avoid making the same mistake this time, then they need to pay attention. The issue that needs to be addressed is a central, highly visible site which makes user-created content easy to access and browse through. Lucasfiles.com and jkii.net are great, but where are the reviews? Can you go to their site and know within a few seconds exactly what you want to download, if anything? But then, actually being able to find a download on either site is a moot point if you don't know about the site to begin with. Everyone who owns JK2/JA needs to be made immediately aware of the community that supports their new game. How much time would it take to add a couple of links on the main screen to lucasfiles.com and jkii.net (or another site)? Take it from someone who knows the code: not much. Yet, the rewards to the community would be huge. Imagine what would happen if the options on the main screen read: - Single Player - Multiplayer Player - Setup - JK2/JA Community - Quit Specifics: 1. Create a link inside the game engine directly to the user-content site. That would bring people there in droves. Even better, allow browsing and downloading of the file database within the game itself or within a linked tool of some sort (like the autoupdater). 2. It is all-important to coerce people into reviewing their downloaded files. Currently, review sites rely on nothing but users' goodwill to get their reviews. I would propose the site giving points for every review that you do, and based on the number of points in your account, you can do things like turn off advertising, submit editorials and articles, create larger numbers of threads in the forum per day, use more graphics in your reviews/forum posts, etc. 3. Add functionality to the game itself where all user-created content is broadcast to the master server. I realize this would be a large addition, but I'm speaking of ideal circumstances. Think of how unreal tournament's engine handles and broadcasts which umods it's using. 4. The front page of the site (lucasfiles, other?) should be a listing of New, Highest Rated, and Most Popular download for the Day, Month, and All-Time (no, their current sidebar is not sufficient). It should show specific numbers, so that you can say, "Damn, this file's been downloaded 5 times as much as the next highest, and it's rated 4.5 out of 5 stars by 4000+ people." It should also keep statistics on live servers that shows how many servers are using any particular file (this would be difficult with smaller files, but with mods this should be easy). This would end the problem of people saying, "What should I download?". 5. Don't set the autodownload option to false in servers by default. Don't set the autodownload speed option to rediculously low levels (~3k/sec) by default. Have an option to redirect autodownloading to another server on the web, so that high-speed transfers are possible without killing current users' gameplay experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDKnite188 Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Completely true. People need to know where to get community created things. Also, there has to be some sort of review system to better the skills of the general community. The Admiral's Command Chamber, a review site that has long been for JK and MotS, has opened space for JK2 (this is old news). They will probably open space for JK3 as well. http://www.commandchamber.net Also, there are a lot of MP maps made that became nothing more than works of art. They need to be hosted on servers. People should be aware of this and take some interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 It's such a shame that so many people, me included, spent so much time and effort creating something only to have no way of letting everyone know about it. The site you mention, for instance, was one I never knew of. Someone who is more casual about their gaming, and who doesn't participate in forums will likely never hear about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 All we can do as a community is work together to share as much information as we can amoung each other on the forums and IRC. I agree a central based non biased review site would indeed be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Sadly, in many ways, LA does continue to hold us (the fan community, of which LFN is just one part) at arm's length. I figure they do this for legal reasons. Perhaps they fear fan backlash, or don't trust us always. Perhaps they are afraid that somebody will try to sue them or tarnish their good name. For whatever reason, LA chooses to acknowledge the fan community, but often appears not to respect us, or doesn't pay attention to us as often as we'd like. This is in contrast to Raven, who have done just about everything they can to try to connect with us and help us out (when not restrained by LA of course). They got us the editing tools we wanted, they helped us out with editing and tech (they even compiled LivingDeadJedi's level for him) and posted on the forums with all sorts of info. They posted strategy guides they'd written for free, etc. A lot of console commands I never knew existed were made known to me by Raven guys posting on these very forums! In recent times, LA has finally put up links to fan sites (for example JediKnightii.net off the Jedi Outcast thing) but with HUGE disclaimers about how they are not in any way supported, unofficial, etc etc. Legalese. I'm sure Aristotle, being a lawyer, could tell you all about the headaches involved. They've hosted more chats, posted more polls, and made more interviews. They've been gracious to us at E3 several years running. I agree I'd love to see more support, but I think its a slow process... Previous Jedi Knight games have included an EXE file (with pretty icon) that sent you to the MSN Gaming Zone. Something similar could be done to send you to the LucasArts page that links to the Fan Sites (the disclaimers intact). Putting in links to an IRC chat in the control panel (much as Unreal Tournament had) would be nice too. I don't expect that to happen though, since they'd have to add it to the Q3 engine, but who knows. As for putting up reviews, it's a big job, so let's see some volunteers. Seriously. LucasFiles does have a "rating" form for each download. Sadly only 3 people have voted a rating for the current JA video, although 200 have downloaded it. If you're asking Raven or LA to review maps, that is asking a lot of them, but didn't that one guy (CliffyB?) from the Unreal Tournament team have a site to review the best maps? They could pay somebody or find somebody who's a big enough fan to do it. ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Maybe everyone should post links here to their favourite review sites for mod content, so we can compile a comprehensive list of sites to visit... Just an idea. Also...if a comprehensive site is lacking, maybe it's time to make one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obi-Wan X Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 I agree we need more information regarding the community, but Raven/LA can only do so much. If they actually added some community links to the engine, then wouldn't someone have to get paid for it? Unless the owners of the sites signed a contract or something of that sort in which said that they volunteered the service for free. If they blindly added community links to their game without asking, then they'd probably face legal issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDKnite188 Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 That comprehensive site can be made with http://www.jediknight3.com if there is going to be one. There should be a community assessment page of some sort showcasing links to editing resources, download sites, fan sites, and mp organizations. I had no idea there was such thing as http://www.jk2files.com until about 2 months ago. All this could have gone under my thread about improving the future JA editing community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 Originally posted by Obi-Wan X I agree we need more information regarding the community, but Raven/LA can only do so much. If they actually added some community links to the engine, then wouldn't someone have to get paid for it? Unless the owners of the sites signed a contract or something of that sort in which said that they volunteered the service for free. If they blindly added community links to their game without asking, then they'd probably face legal issues. Nobody would need to be paid for putting links to their sites within the game itself. Remember, site owners want hits! That's what allows them to sell advertising, etc. If Raven/LA put these links into the engine, then I certainly don't think any of the site admins would be complaining! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Sadly, in many ways, LA does continue to hold us (the fan community, of which LFN is just one part) at arm's length. Trust Kurgan to reply to one of my long-winded threads. :] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 Originally posted by StormHammer Maybe everyone should post links here to their favourite review sites for mod content, so we can compile a comprehensive list of sites to visit... Just an idea. Also...if a comprehensive site is lacking, maybe it's time to make one... I don't think the sites that are lacking, it's Raven/LA's willingness and ability to integrate their product with the community that supports it. Jkii.net, lucasfiles.com, jk2files.com, massassi.net, etc.--that's plenty of sites, but who the hell knows about them? We know about some of them, obviously, but someone who goes out and buys jk2/JA isn't going to know squat until they get on the web and start doing web searches. Why have the extra barrier to overcome before entering the community? Just put links to the big sites in the damn game and make it easy! Nobody's ever bitched and moaned about something becoming genuinely easier to do. Remember, this isn't hard to do technically. It's just a matter of getting them to do it. Some developer or publisher is going to figure this out one day, and I can't wait to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Well in addition to "fan" or "mod" sites, competition sites such as ogl, twl and cal (which will be supporting JA ladders) need to be made public as well. People who play games like rtcw, counter-strike and quake 3 generally are gamers who are for the most part, aware of these places simply through years of gaming online. However a lot of people I met in the year and a half of playing JK2 were simply not aware these places even existed. Actually quake 3 is a perfect example. Those of you who have it installed, click your start button > programs > quake 3 arena > q3a community. There is a whole list of links (a lot are dead now since they were from 1999) for mod communities, patches, clan listings, leagues and ladders, the works. The thing is none of it was "incorporated" into the game (like in the actual menu interface or application itself) so to speak, yet it's all there for easy access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Also I could not agree more with what Kurgan said about Raven trying (with hands tied by Lucas legal) to be as supportive as possible. I am fairly active in the SoF 2 community as well and much like id software, Raven gives as much support to the communities who follow their games as they can. People generally wanted to point the finger at Raven for everything and anything that they did not like about JK2 but in reality even if they wanted to fix a problem; there was nothing they could do without the approval from Lucas legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarous Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 While lack of community support on LA part was a contributing factor to many people leaving JO, i think a bigger part was the entire 1.03+ debacle. I personally (as in friends i see everyday) know 5 people that stopped playing after 1.03 because the game changed in such a bad way. Nice solid 100% among those i know. That sort of thing happened countless times when people switched to 1.03. If a lesson is to be learned, it should be that releasing patches which alienate a gigantic part of your playerbase - and those being the ones that tend to play the most and make the community happen - is a bad idea. If people are whining about ANYTHING in JA, take it with about six doses of salt and really think about whether completely remaking the multiplayer component is called for. Laz P.S. Any plans on making a promod academy, Art? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDKnite188 Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Originally posted by FK | unnamed Well in addition to "fan" or "mod" sites, competition sites such as ogl, twl and cal (which will be supporting JA ladders) need to be made public as well. People who play games like rtcw, counter-strike and quake 3 generally are gamers who are for the most part, aware of these places simply through years of gaming online. Yeah, I caught on to TWL not long after my clan (FF GUNS RULES!) for JK2 started getting into the competitive field. The JK2 competitive community was really poor. There were some great talents (DSBr and khz are priceless examples), but the community was rather split and muddled. I am hoping the MP is more suitable and siege mode gives something more to offer. I play ET now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarus Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 While it sounds great im kinda iffy about making custom maps more common. For the most part, custom maps are garbage. There are exceptions but i get tired of spending 5 minutes downloading a new map (lot more time for jedi outcast) only to find out its a piece of garbage. I prefer the original maps for the most part, rarely have I seen a player made one that was just as nice. And when its easy to use custom maps and get them then everyone tends to run their own favorite map in which case you get a ton of empty servers or crappy games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargasso Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 You're hearts are in the right places, I think. But for practical purposes that is part of the problem. You need to prove to LEC, likely in a highly organized, professional and otherwise presentable manner, that these improvements you propose stand to make them more money than they would without them. The people holding the reins of the company in question likely don't care about you beyond your signifigance as a potential dollar sign. The don't. Givva. ****. They are out to make money, money, and also more money. Contact employees of the company to open a dialouge and nuture a relationship. This is one instance where nerds will require social skills to make any progress in addition to lots of prepartion and perseverence. Ask some of the staff members here for numbers and email addresses of LucasArts PR staff. They have them. Just making LEC aware of these ideas isn't enough. They aren't going to pick your ideas just because they'll make a better game or a better community. They'll pick up your ideas only if it can be proved that a better game and a better community via these ideas will clearly make them more money. Is this really necessary? Should things really be this hard? Absolutely and the world is a messed up place, respectively. Don't expect some of things to be done because they are the right thing to do. Barking up the morality tree where a corporation doesn't have a treehouse is not going to do you or anyone else any good. You wanna get the ball rolling for the community? You've gotta play LEC's game in more ways than one. There is your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visac Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 ArtifeX, I am the admin of LucasFiles and I appreciate your input. I would like to discuss some of your ideas. But then, actually being able to find a download on either site is a moot point if you don't know about the site to begin with. Everyone who owns JK2/JA needs to be made immediately aware of the community that supports their new game. How much time would it take to add a couple of links on the main screen to lucasfiles.com and jkii.net (or another site)? Take it from someone who knows the code: not much. Yet, the rewards to the community would be huge. Imagine what would happen if the options on the main screen read: - Single Player - Multiplayer Player - Setup - JK2/JA Community - Quit LucasArts is actually supporting LucasFiles officially. On the one side that is a great thing, but along with the offical sanction comes the legal burden. The website is full of legal disclaimers. Some people may have wondered if they need a laywer to download or submit files to and from lucasfiles. LucasFiles wasn't too successful so far because it is lacking files. The reason is simple: We don't get a lot file submissions and I personally don't know why. Having his map or mod on LucasFiles should be considered a good thing. If LucasFiles would have more files, traffic and attention LucasArts would support it more on the official LucasArts website. Maybe some of you mod / map creators can tell me about your concerns. I really would like to here them. We (You guys and I) do all this for fun and because we like what we do. It is not like we're earning money with this, can work full time on this and have it all figured out already. 2. It is all-important to coerce people into reviewing their downloaded files. Currently, review sites rely on nothing but users' goodwill to get their reviews. I would propose the site giving points for every review that you do, and based on the number of points in your account, you can do things like turn off advertising, submit editorials and articles, create larger numbers of threads in the forum per day, use more graphics in your reviews/forum posts, etc. What would you prefer? A review or comment function within LucasFiles? A seperate website? On JK.net? I like the idea of giving reward points to writers. How important is a comment / review function of a filesite to a file author? Would you rather send it to such a site than to one without this kind of functionality? I am considering to integrate a comment/review system into LucasFiles. Maybe you guys can give me some suggestions. 4. The front page of the site (lucasfiles, other?) should be a listing of New, Highest Rated, and Most Popular download for the Day, Month, and All-Time (no, their current sidebar is not sufficient). It should show specific numbers, so that you can say, "Damn, this file's been downloaded 5 times as much as the next highest, and it's rated 4.5 out of 5 stars by 4000+ people." It should also keep statistics on live servers that shows how many servers are using any particular file (this would be difficult with smaller files, but with mods this should be easy). This would end the problem of people saying, "What should I download?". Good idea. I admit that we need to improve the right sidebar or rethink it. I will think about Thank you for your suggestions! Vis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Originally posted by Visac ArtifeX, I am the admin of LucasFiles and I appreciate your input. I would like to discuss some of your ideas. LucasArts is actually supporting LucasFiles officially. On the one side that is a great thing, but along with the offical sanction comes the legal burden. The website is full of legal disclaimers. Some people may have wondered if they need a laywer to download or submit files to and from lucasfiles. LucasFiles wasn't too successful so far because it is lacking files. The reason is simple: We don't get a lot file submissions and I personally don't know why. Having his map or mod on LucasFiles should be considered a good thing. If LucasFiles would have more files, traffic and attention LucasArts would support it more on the official LucasArts website. its a two-way street. if people don't know about the site, they won't visit it. i personally didn't know about it until yesterday when artifex made this post. lucastarts wants it to be more sucsessful? then they have to get it advertised or linked to in a place where people will know about it. its simple, to get traffic, you have to get the name to the people. and LA obviously dropped the ball for lucasfiles (if they were even trying...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylilin Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 I think if us as fans need some sort of central database for files, it is up to us as fans to see that it is done. As Kurgan stated previously, some volunteers will be needed. And I can't think of a better place to recruit those volunteers than these forums. Maybe a new forum should be created, or even using an existing forum, so people can post news of their work, where to download it, so our happy volunteers can downlaod the file, review it, then post it to a central site for all fans to download. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 I don't think JO suffered that problem at all. I think JO suffered from an overall crappiness factor that simply scared away a lot of players and developers. Getting the mods isn't the problem. Making them is. People are capable of getting off their ass and using Google, spending a whole six seconds to find some sites. The original Jedi Knight didn't have this, and it always had a very strong community with all sorts of mods. On a tangent, Massassi.net has, I think the best level and commenting system on any site. You click on the link, it brings up the page for the file. Comments and ratings are right in front of you, and screenshots and the download links are visible. There's no navigating through half a dozen pages and going through FileFront or something just to download a file. Files are posted as long as people send them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Originally posted by Emon On a tangent, Massassi.net has, I think the best level and commenting system on any site. You click on the link, it brings up the page for the file. Comments and ratings are right in front of you, and screenshots and the download links are visible. There's no navigating through half a dozen pages and going through FileFront or something just to download a file. Files are posted as long as people send them in. That's a very good point. Streamlining is extremely important, IMHO, and not having to click through several pages to get to all the information you want on a particular file can really, really help. I prefer it when I can view everything about a file on the same page, including screenshot thumbnails, a brief description by the author, all the files details, ratings/popularity, how many times downloaded, and brief user reviews/comments underneath (and at the bottom of existing user comments a simple form to post your own comment and rating for the file), among other things. It would also be nice to see some regular articles on particular mods, FAQs about modding/editing, and interviews with some of these mod crews/authors. If this could all be tied together in a more cohesive way, and the site was advertised a great deal more, it would be great for the whole community. It might also be an idea to have a section for particular mod authors to showcase all of their work on a single page. Think of it like some of these online artist galleries, where the author becomes a member of the site, and is allocated a page where they can upload their own content, and receive comments on particular pieces of work from their peers and from users. This sort of thing could help to 'bind' the community together a bit more. As for advertising LucasFiles...maybe there should be links to it from the forums, as well as from the main sites. After all, I know many people only visit the forums, without visiting the main sites at all, so some really prominent links to LucasFiles from LucasForums could potentially attract more users. And perhaps the Showcase Forum also needs to be advertised more. Just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wudan Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 During JK2's wild ride I was involved in 2 or 3 projects that flopped hard, and was greatly discouraged by the lack of success that projects that reached completion experienced. The biggest problem that I found is that just when the coding community started gearring up and working together, this site lumped the coding forum, the skinning, and modelling forum in to one General forum, and more recently changed over to the new 'jk series' format, which puts editing questions for all jk games in to the General Editing forum. This really annoyed me, stifled my ability to confer with other coders, and ultimately I released no mod for JK2. Another thing was servers don't run enough custom mods and maps, so it seems that we will have to find server admins and encourage them to run community created content. I think more editing groups should be formed to create custom content and release it in 'packs' so that server admins will find it easier to download and run these. Another thing, is competition. There ought to be some. Competition inspires creativity. Perhaps jkii.net or some site out there should run some competitions, if only for the glory of being the best. I completely agree with Emon. This click here, click there, agree here, agree there crap really annoys me. Just click to view info and screenies and one more click under a disclaimer should be enough to start a download. Also, jkii.net STOPPED posting new files in January, only 9 or 10 months after JK2's release. Doesn't seem too bad, right? Well, massassi.net STILL posts jk content TODAY, and it's been what, 6 years since jk was released? I think you see my point, 'nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Wudan...I agree with all the points you just raised. Holding competitions, making packs of the 'best maps' out there, etc., helps other games to achieve better notoriety and more on-going support from mod authors. It would be great if Raven could actually get involved by releasing a few new maps down the line, together with their 'pick of the best' from the user community, in a pack. That's what Epic did for UT and UT2K3...and it might be a greater incentive for more servers to carry a wider range of popular user-made maps if they have sort of a rubber stamp of authority from the developer. From a players perspective, I would also be more inclined to d/l a pack of the 'best' maps as viewed by the developer. An even more radical step would be for this community to somehow pull together to actually provide a dedicated server to showcase 'maps of the week', run tournaments on them, and get player feedback that can also feature as comments on the pages where those files can be downloaded. Constructive criticism from a wider player base should eventually raise the bar in terms of quality where mod crews are concerned. As for the structure of the editing forums...if there is a general concensus that they need to be improved, then certainly that needs to be debated, and any constructive suggestions put forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Yes, Massassi had an excellent file downloads model, and they were very strict about their file submission policy (requiring description/author text file(s) and 2 screenshots zipped). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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