Kurgan Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Martial Law is a big mistake. The military isn't trained to be law enforcement, they're trained to kill and destroy things. I can see that making the situation worse. Edit: As I suspected, "Martial Law" has not been declared, despite reporting, at least this source is claiming. I would think this would be a big precedent. When during an emergency has the Constitution been suspended and all authority given to the military? Check this link out: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46073 Now of course during a state of emergency, apparently the authorites can pretty much shred people's freedoms and rights, but there is still a distinction. What's more important, stopping looting or saving lives? Honestly, while it sucks for the people who's businesses are ruined by looting, I'll take the lives saved over merchandise. If the people got what they needed, they wouldn't try to loot. It's not like we're talking about people grabbing a nice plasma screen TV during the crisis. As for the beatings and rapes, that's inexcusable. Fighting over supplies I could understand, but rapes? There's no reason to rape somebody, ever, much less in this crisis. Is somebody frustrated, taking their anger out on somebody else? Now there's where you can have your thugs intervene. But shooting somebody for stealing some toothpaste? No. This whole thing makes me sick... On another note, I think we should get somebody posting on JediKnight.net with some valid donation links. Throwing money at the situation alone won't solve things, but it's a start. I would do the update but I don't have access and Aristotle is going to be gone for a week so he can't set it up for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 What's more important, stopping looting or saving lives? Honestly, while it sucks for the people who's businesses are ruined by looting, I'll take the lives saved over merchandise. If the people got what they needed, they wouldn't try to loot. It's not like we're talking about people grabbing a nice plasma screen TV during the crisis. Actually, that is what's happening. Gun stores have even been looted. Also, it's kinda hard to rescue people when they're shooting at you. Choppers with supplies are being fired upon, forcing them to either A) Fly away without delivering supplies, or B) just toss them to the ground. I think they should declare martial law and send in the troops. They can fight the looters, rampaging criminals, ect. while national guardsmen and the police resume rescue operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 It's not just looting; there's people getting raped, murdered, shot, carjacked, and there's gangs roaming the streets with stolen AK-47's. It's way worse than some punks carrying out TV's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Linkage And who better to fight in "Downtown Baghdad" than the army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupes. Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Sniper fire halts hospital evacuation Wow, people are ****ing idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Officers told CNN they lacked manpower and steady communications to properly do their jobs -- and that they needed help to prevent the widespread looting and violence now prevalent in the city. How many days are they going to wait before bringing in serious help? I'm glad I don't have any relatives or friends near there. And I was waiting for the god card to be played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Andrew Posted September 2, 2005 Author Share Posted September 2, 2005 I salute all those who will rebuild and reorganize the demolished cities, because they will have one hell of a job to do. And I swear to never swear again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 And I was waiting for the god card to be played. What the hell... these people are worse than islamic extremists. They've said on the news that some terrorist groups were rejoicing saying "Katrina has joined us in the jihad against America" or whatever, but for christian groups to find good in this? Why don't they just join the snipers shooting at hospitals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 MPs are the law enforcement in the army. the people that are shooting rescuers need to be put out of their misery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Windu Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 urgh. My fault guys; I heard it like 3 times on the news >_> But yeah, martial law needs to be declared now. Cause it's just insane down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Screw that, drop down bats and televise that junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wassup Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 What the hell... these people are worse than islamic extremists. They've said on the news that some terrorist groups were rejoicing saying "Katrina has joined us in the jihad against America" or whatever, but for christian groups to find good in this? Why don't they just join the snipers shooting at hospitals? It is quite sad how in all the light of this tragedy, some people still see it as a way to profit from and further their own agendas. Instead of providing aid, Repent America is using this timely opportunity to draw attention to the so-called "sins" of NO just as Americans' short attention spans are drawn to this area. I quote Repent America director Michael Marcavage: "We must help and pray for those ravaged by this disaster, but let us not forget that the citizens of New Orleans tolerated and welcomed the wickedness in their city for so long," Marcavage said. Yet, for reasons unknown, his website provides no instructions or means on how a reader may do their part to help (linking to http://www.redcross.org would have been a start). What should be done right now is to draw attention and support to the real problem at hand, such as all the hunger, lawlessness, and fear currently being faced by the people of New Orleans and the surrounding areas. What should be spread is a message of hope, not condemnation. Personal judgements should be saved for after the crisis is over, however, everybody, including Marcavage, knows that by then such opinions won't be as relevant, which is why organizations such as Repent America are seizing the moment. P.S.: If you would like to help please follow my link in my sig. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalukai Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 hey to end my last post here at lucas forums.... how bout instead of you knobs b1tching about what should have been done blah blah blah you donate some money instead to a cause to help your fellow brethren out... i happen to donate today over 1000 dollars in food and money. because that is honestly what all you do anyway... minus the donate part.. ban me now please because i dont want to see anymore BS thread spam hating on the ppl that are from most of yours own soil. some company excluded---- the ones referred to are the ones that know i am talking about them have a good time... V. (sigh.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 How do you know who's donated and who hasn't? You're judging people based on assumptions that we're all talk and no action. I strongly encourage people to donate, but whether or not you've given 1,000$ or more has no bearing on the validity of your opinions. Can we share opinions? Thanks. If you're that angry and leaving, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. Maybe your example will encourage others to do better? --------- As to Martial Law, I only see National Guardsmen, turning their guns on American citizens and killing them. Will that solve the problem? Doubtful, considering it hasn't done jack to solve problems anywhere else (consider the success stories in Iraq). In American history the army has been used against its own citizens, but I'll leave the effectiveness or morality of such actions to you. Last I heard, there were 28,000 troops sent to deal with the problem. What more do the people demanding Martial-Law want? While it's just a movie, The Siege puts it well: General William Devereaux: The Army is a broad sword, not a scalpel. Trust me, senator - you do not want the Army in an American city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalukai Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 You're judging people based on assumptions [/i] Yeah and that is exactly what some others here are doing which is why im pissed and bailing out of these stale forums. It's the same old BS over and over... and i wont stand for bashing on a topic of the ppl that i was neighbors to die (some of my friends btw) while ppl refer to them as stupid or idiots or morons... say what you want but that sh1t makes the Karma on you.(and no not you Kurgan) so like I said have fun... oh and ps... how the f---k are you gonna walk to safety when it was over a 100+ mile path? Opinions are good and all but use some common sense considering i am always reminded here of it....... later....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 As to Martial Law, I only see National Guardsmen, turning their guns on American citizens and killing them. Will that solve the problem? Doubtful, considering it hasn't done jack to solve problems anywhere else (consider the success stories in Iraq). American citizens? You mean these thugs who shoot up hospitals, hijack ambulances, turn over rescue boats, and rape and murder anyone they want? Well whatever, I find it hard to believe that you'd value the lives of these "citizens" more than that of the poor and sick people who will die soon because certain "citizens" think it's more important to shoot at helicopters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 American citizens? You mean these thugs who shoot up hospitals, hijack ambulances, turn over rescue boats, and rape and murder anyone they want? Well whatever, I find it hard to believe that you'd value the lives of these "citizens" more than that of the poor and sick people who will die soon because certain "citizens" think it's more important to shoot at helicopters. Thank you. Send in more SWAT teams and national guardsmen and MPs and whatever the Heck else you can get your hands on. Why on Earth would they "turn their guns on honest American citizens"? You make them sound like the rogue bandits in NRA's conspiracy theories, waiting for a chance to take over cities or the whole nation when the world's eyes turn away. Ban me now please because i dont want to see anymore BS thread spam hating on the ppl that are from most of yours own soil. I think the people calling those that could not or did not want to leave "stupid" or "morons" need to re-consider their opinions a little, yes. Look, gas money isn't "just 50 bucks". To a lot of people, it's "50 bucks", without the "just" part. Heck, there are people out there that don't make that much in a whole month. Yes, they could maybe have moved. Maybe they underestimated the threat or loved their homes too much or whatever. Or maybe they were just plain dumb. However, you don't know the story of John Doe-who-stayed more than I do, so quit judging them, please. I remember hearing about something similar happening in Galveston, Texas a long time ago. It did. Which is why they build their houses on poles now, several metres over ground level. oh and ps... how the f---k are you gonna walk to safety when it was over a 100+ mile path? Opinions are good and all but use some common sense considering i am always reminded here of it....... later....... For real. Don't these morons living in New Orleans realize that practicing for a 100+ mile walk is necessary for survival. Honestly, sometimes I wonder about people. They make a 50+ mile walk sound like this exhausting thing that takes days and more supplies than you can carry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 American citizens? You mean these thugs who shoot up hospitals, hijack ambulances, turn over rescue boats, and rape and murder anyone they want? Well whatever, I find it hard to believe that you'd value the lives of these "citizens" more than that of the poor and sick people who will die soon because certain "citizens" think it's more important to shoot at helicopters. Whether they loot or commit crimes, they are American Citizens. What, are you going to start calling them "illegal combatants"? Perhaps we should send them to Abu Gharib? Trust me when I say this, if you turn loose the military into a "combat zone" many more people than the guilty get killed. That's why I'm not calling for blood like some people here. Should we kill them all and let God sort them out? Because that's what's going to happen using the gung-ho "send in the army, let them solve the problem" mentality being displayed by people here. Though I guess reactions like this shouldn't be surprising. Lots of people are very angry. It's like after 9/11 happened, people were calling for us to attack this or that nation, or even to use nuclear weapons. Obviously somebody in New Orleans being shot at is going to want to shoot back, I understand that. But there's a world of difference between that and declaring Martial Law, with massed troops shooting looters on sight. The fact is, these people are desperate, and many of the ones doing the crimes and idiotic stupid things we're talking about are included in the poor and sick people we're discussing. Now I don't see how raping people helps anyone, but I can see why some people would want to steal food or hijack ambulances. It's despicable people would only think of themselves, but in desperate situations, people don't think rationally. I can understand the desire of people to say "let's fight fire with fire" etc. but at what cost? For every "bad person" you kill, you're going to kill a few more "good people." Depending on the military tactics used (I don't trust them, considering their track record, remember many of them are "Fresh from Iraq"). Fresh from Iraq, that sounds comforting. Fresh from a military dictatorship (defacto without a Constitution by the elected officials) where the military has been known to torture and kill civilians, innocent or guilty (and yes, commit rapes too!). Support our troops or not, I wouldn't trust such people to protect my life. I'll try my best not to "look like a looter" (is that like not "looking like a terrorist"?) but that won't save me from a bomb or a case of mistaken identity or a soldier thought he saw something that he didn't, etc. Again, this isn't such a black or white issue of either we do nothing or we send in the troops to fire on crowds. But, don't you see how these things get started? I remember back in Clinton was in office various conservative radio talk show hosts were saying how there was going to be a state of emergency and US troops would be set upon their fellow Americans. It didn't happen, but now it is happening. It's damn scary. And yet we have people who aren't satisfied, they want more. And this isn't even a terrorist action, it's a natural disaster! I don't pretend to know how to handle the situation if I were governor or general or president, but what's scarier, rioters and hungry mobs or armed troops out for blood? Gangs of New York was another movie, but it was based on real events. People I've talked to who saw the movie when it came out scoffed that anything like that could happen today. Well... here we are. Isn't anybody else disturbed by this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Thank you. Send in more SWAT teams and national guardsmen and MPs and whatever the Heck else you can get your hands on. Why on Earth would they "turn their guns on honest American citizens"? You make them sound like the rogue bandits in NRA's conspiracy theories, waiting for a chance to take over cities or the whole nation when the world's eyes turn away. Who are these people shooting at helicopters? Are they gang members? Are they crazy people? Are they anti-government gun nuts? Are they terrorists? I agree that the above statement about "citizens" sounded incredibly paranoic. What a perfect excuse, whoever I don't like is a valid target. Do we routinely line up shoplifters for the firing squad? Do we hang rapists in the city square? No, but that's what goes on in a military dictatorship, and that's what Martial Law is, a military dictatorship. The Army is judge, jury and executioner, accountable to noone. In the various articles it sounds like you can feel some of the sense of what's going on. People were quoted as saying the "buses were taunting us" and "they don't care about helping people in their own country." Etc. It sounds like some people think they are being toyed with or ignored. Perhaps we're not getting the whole picture. All the news reports say that the relief workers and military personal are doing everything right, it's the mobs and individuals that aren't doing what they're supposed to. So that makes me wonder... what are they not telling us? I don't think the Army has a magical way of figuring out who the "bad people" are vs. the "good people." So you're going to have a lot of "innocent" deaths when you start targetting civilians. Is that a cell phone in your hand or a gun? Better shoot first to make sure. These guys are hyped up for combat, that's what troops do. You're just upping the body count with that kind of situation by default. And if it's in the interest of protecting relief workers that sounds fine, if it's in the interest of guarding liquor stores from "looters"? Is that worth shedding blood over? I think the people calling those that could not or did not want to leave "stupid" or "morons" need to re-consider their opinions a little, yes. I think the notion being played out here is that people are thinking, sitting comfortably in their living rooms, "well if I were in that situation I'd have done the rational thing" etc. Easy to say, and it's hard to understand. Stupid behavior isn't excusable, but its a fact that in disaster situations people don't see the big picture, they don't think rationally. In fires people rush to the exit and block it, so they all die. In crowded concerts people stampede and crush other people to death. In numerous examples throughout history one soldier or policeman fires his gun by accident and then everyone starts firing. In battles soldiers shoot their own troops because they can't see what's going on. It's easy to say "that wouldn't be me" and "those people who died must have been idiots" (blame the Darwin Awards on popularizing that mentality on the internet), but I'm sure it's a different story in the actual thick of things. I don't know if people really understood the big picture. Leaving your home behind perhaps forever is a hard thing for many people to do. They probably were thinking (much like us) "well I'm smart, I don't need to worry." Granted their behavior looks incredibly stupid and suicidal now. Most people are unprepared for such a disaster as this, and expecting large numbers of people to be prepared for it is a pipe dream. The fact is that things like this on this scale are rather rare, and its hard to get people to practice for something like this when its so rare, they can't justify the time or cost. People's memories get hazy. It's sad, but true. It's much easier to judge after the fact from a safe distance though. It's a hard lesson to learn, but do you think when this happens again in 25-50 years people will fare any better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermie Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I just want to add a note. Our teacher told us about when her and her family was in Thailand when the tsunami struck, and it seemed like that in those situations, there are no Americans and Mexicans, no black and white, no looters and non-looters. There are only people, and survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr. Cracken Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 It seems to me the policvy makers in D.C are trying. trying damned hard to get help to the area, but i think that the many troops needed, i would estimate in my personal opinion, are in Iraq and afghanistan, and we would need something in the realm of about 20,000-50,000 to DEFINITVLY secure New Orleans. possibly more. More Forces from the US.Navy are needed, to off load people at the coast and get people out, and the U.S. Navy Seals need to go in and help with recovery efforts, along with teh US. Army Air Corps divisions and the US. Air Force to start lifting people out. Army Helicopters need to start air patrols, with clear shoot-to-kill orders against looters. basically, we need alot of military support, IN ADDITION to the US. National Guard and Air Force. Please, START YELLING AT YOUR STATE OFFICIALS TO SEND GUARD TROOPS TO NEW ORLEANS. granted, it may feel like zerging the area, but this is what needs to be done to help secure the city, and get everyone out to safety. Also, for the love of GOD don't buy gas. I was thinking 3/gal by christmas. Thanks to Katrina, we have 3/gallon now across the nation. AGain, petition your lawmakers to have the president dump the ENTIRE reserve we have in storage. yes, all of it. the entire thing. will it screw us in the future? possibly, but this thing that came through is gonna hurt us harder in the long run anyway. You can help, even if you can't donate, by getting in touch with your lawmakers and DEMANDING action such as this. I've already sent several e-mails to the Govener of New York to send such kind of aid, and both my Senators have heard from me. I urge you to all do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Just FYI, I have donated some money. As for "American Citizens," I still don't care. There is no reason people should be rioting and creating chaos. I'm thinking a lot of bad people are stirring up trouble and spreading fear. The army needs to be sent in search the entire city for troublemakers. They can either arrest the troublemakers, or if they're shooting back, take them out. There is no excuse for this. It'sa disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I strongly resent the implication that people who called those who stayed behind stupid are just sitting around in our chairs, doing nothign to help. I'm really impressed that you gave over 1,000 dollars nalukai, you have impressed us all so much, you must be superior to all of us. However, people give what they can. I have to pay for college, and I have to pay rent, and I have to buy my food. I can't afford to give 1,000 dollars. So whenever I'm out and I see a red-cross donation place I will give whatever I have on me. I'll probably donate 50 bucks soon. And if it makes me sound heartless, whatever. But I cannot generate much sympathy for the people who chose to say in the path of a hurricane. There were options even outside of walking the long distance. They could've got on a bus, taken a train, ridden a bicycle. But some people just figured they'd be okay. As I said, if they were too poor to evacuate, or too sick, or truly unable I feel amazingly terrible for those people. I cannot imagine the hell they are in right now. But choosing to stay in it's path...heh. I would expect nobody to feel bad for me if I climbed to the top of the tallest tree around me during a lightning storm and was hit by lightning and killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Another article. Face it, it's a warzone down there. I'd love to see one of you try and use your wishywashy peace crap and solve the situation. You'd most likely get shot. Cops are handing in their badges, and telling people they're on their own. I didn't see any Thais rampaging and killing each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Looks like America and the western world are just one step away from anarchy after all... You better not be holding a TV when the troops come around the corner... And up until this point Bush has declined the offers of assistance from Canada. I guess everything is under control... So true... http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/09/02/ray_nagin20050902.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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