Mathematics and Science! Why is citizens in the U.S. are doing so poorly at them?

[Windu Chi]

I believe the answer to that question will have to be reality tv.

 

There is to much reality tv and not enough education programs

 

Why don't the network execs create reality education programs about Math and Science?

 

I know some people will blame the schools and education system.

 

But tv entertainment should hold some responsibility too.

 

Well since more people pay attention to tv viewing then teachers.

[ET Warrior]

Probably for the same reason US citizens are so poor at english and grammar.

 

I blame the internet.

[Windu Chi]

Probably for the same reason US citizens are so poor at english and grammar.

 

I blame the internet.

The internet is not always a bad influence.

 

 

MIT have release their lecture notes about their courses; they called it Open courseware.

 

These lecture notes can be download for free anytime.

http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html

 

So there is some free knowledge to obtain for anybody interested.

[TK-8252]

As much as I despise reality TV as a threat to American democracy, I'm not so prepared to BLAME reality TV for a lack of education in math and science.

 

Maybe Americans don't care about math and science because it doesn't effect them. Most citizens working at a desk or on a job site aren't using algebra, oceanography, or ecology to lay bricks or enter data on a computer.

 

I'm going to vote to blame the educational system, since we shouldn't be forced to learn ****ing geometry and oceanography to begin with. It should be voluntary.

 

Oh, and notice the title of this thread...

 

"Why is citizens..."

[Emperor Devon]

Teachers, the Internet, TV, and many other reasons can affect those things, though it ultimarely comes down to the student. Blaming teachers, television, the whole system even, is one of the things that irritates me to the extreme. It comes down to the student for how well they want to do. You can read cases in which someone from a poor family in an inner city became a brain surgeon, or where someone from a rich family was sent to an Ivy League school and failed miserably, due to sheer stupidity.

 

Every person chooses what happens with them. Obstacles such as the things Windu listed can have an effect, but not a great one. If the kids just plain don't like math and science, not a thing anyone can do will change that. Blaming things like that is a form of laziness, in refusing to accept responsibility for one's actions. Again, it all comes down to the student.

 

Why you believe reality TV is the answer, windu6, is beyond me. It's simply a type of television, and there are plenty of kids who watch it, and there are plenty who don't. All of which do better or worse in some areas than others.

 

Holding TV responsible sounds like an excuse to me. If kids listen to their teachers, read their textbooks, put effort into their assignments and turn them in on time, they'll do well. If they spend time watching reality TV instead of studying, they won't. But with the logic that reality TV itself ruins grades, you might as well hold all forms of entertainment responsible. Lots of people can get distracted from their studies by all sorts of things, and reality TV is one of many.

 

And in any event, television has no effect when the kid is in the classroom. It's not like any responsible teacher is going to tell everyone they can watch pointless shows while (s)he's talking. If (s)he does, well, that's still the student's fault for choosing their lessons.

 

I myself am more concerned with why subjects that most people won't use extensively in their lives are mandatory.

 

There are shows out there devoted to science and math anyway, windu6. I've not heard of any students with poor grades who frequently watch those, but if there are, it's still their fault. I don't watch TV, but I've seen an episode of some show devoted to science, and it looked very informative.

 

But even if reality TV was replaced with educational shows, just how many people would watch them? The reason they're watching reality TV in the first place is for entertainment, and for someone who actually likes it, I doubt science and math could provide any form of enjoyment when on a screen over a book.

 

To summarize my points: it all comes down to the student.

 

However, I'm more concerned over why topics that most kids won't use extensively in their lives are mandatory to take.

[Windu Chi]

Teachers, the Internet, TV, and many other reasons can affect those things, though it ultimarely comes down to the student. Blaming teachers, television, the whole system even, is one of the things that irritates me to the extreme. It comes down to the student for how well they want to do. You can read cases in which someone from a poor family in an inner city became a brain surgeon, or where someone from a rich family was sent to an Ivy League school and failed miserably, due to sheer stupidity.

 

Every person chooses what happens with them. Obstacles such as the things Windu listed can have an effect, but not a great one. If the kids just plain don't like math and science, not a thing anyone can do will change that. Blaming things like that is a form of laziness, in refusing to accept responsibility for one's actions. Again, it all comes down to the student.

 

Why you believe reality TV is the answer, windu6, is beyond me. It's simply a type of television, and there are plenty of kids who watch it, and there are plenty who don't. All of which do better or worse in some areas than others.

 

Holding TV responsible sounds like an excuse to me. If kids listen to their teachers, read their textbooks, put effort into their assignments and turn them in on time, they'll do well. If they spend time watching reality TV instead of studying, they won't. But with the logic that reality TV itself ruins grades, you might as well hold all forms of entertainment responsible. Lots of people can get distracted from their studies by all sorts of things, and reality TV is one of many.

 

And in any event, television has no effect when the kid is in the classroom. It's not like any responsible teacher is going to tell everyone they can watch pointless shows while (s)he's talking. If (s)he does, well, that's still the student's fault for choosing their lessons.

 

I myself am more concerned with why subjects that most people won't use extensively in their lives are mandatory.

 

There are shows out there devoted to science and math anyway, windu6. I've not heard of any students with poor grades who frequently watch those, but if there are, it's still their fault. I don't watch TV, but I've seen an episode of some show devoted to science, and it looked very informative.

 

But even if reality TV was replaced with educational shows, just how many people would watch them? The reason they're watching reality TV in the first place is for entertainment, and for someone who actually likes it, I doubt science and math could provide any form of enjoyment when on a screen over a book.

 

To summarize my points: it all comes down to the student.

 

However, I'm more concerned over why topics that most kids won't use extensively in their lives are mandatory to take.

There is not a enough education tv programs out there.

 

Programs like Nova that is on PBS should be more technical.

 

I mean they should show the math behind the topic in the episode.

 

I blame reality tv because it has ruin television.

 

Before reality tv there was more educational programs on that was more technical and informative.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

There is not a enough education tv programs out there.

 

Programs like Nova that is on PBS should be more technical.

 

I mean they should show the math behind the topic in the episode.

 

I blame reality tv because it has ruin television.

 

Before reality tv there was more educational programs on that was more technical and informative.

There are plenty of educational programs out there. Nobody watches them, but they're out there.

[Samnmax221]

I blame the teachers unions, specifically the UFT. My Sociology teacher was not pleased to hear me say that (because she's a big whiney socialist), and my History teacher was also not at all joyfull (If he wasn't the regional President he might not have a job).

[milo]

There's not enough options in the poll. I didn't see "Warcraft" or "the internet", so I didn't vote.

 

I'd say kids are doing poorly in Math and Science for a couple of reasons.

 

 

1. It's boring. Why pay attention in Algebra when you can text to your friends (~omg my tchr is such a dork lol ~i kno rite), listen to your ipod, or play your gameboy?

 

2. It's not cool. Being in a garage band--NOW THAT'S COOL. Seriously, what do you need math for? Do you actually want to be an engineer or something? Or *gasp* a college professor? (actually, I know a few dorks who wish they could be as knowledgeable and sophisticated as the main character in The DaVinci Code )

 

3. The education system is also partly to blame. In my school district, you only need to take a science course till 11th grade, and you only need math until 10th. What the hell is that? You can take a few easy electives + english, and then screw around for the last few years of high school. Though I don't know if that holds true for the rest of the US. Utah does have the ****tiest schools in the country. Anyway, my point is kids are stupid. If they're allowed to slack off, then you can bet that they will.

 

4. I had something else, but I forgot.

 

Yeah...my 2 cents for now.

[Halo_92]

@Windu6, you forgot to put "Us' in there.

 

We are also a problem. We don't want to learn.

 

And TK is right, Who is really going to use oceanography in thier 9-5 jobs.

 

but then again they want us to be SMARt, to know things to look at a diagram and know what it means.

 

A Large part of U.S' Problems are that we don't take responsibility for our actions.

So we'll blame Reality T.V. or the educational system, no, don't blame them.

 

First look at yourself. And then when you've fixed your faults you can blame someone else.

 

Note: This was not directed at anyone here at the forums.

[Ray Jones]

At this point I'd like to point out that math is a science, too. X)

 

However, how about "blaming" society, for creating values where knowledge and skill are of no significance. It's all about being rich, poor, top, flop, in, out, religious or not, hiphop or rock, .. you get the point.

[edlib]

Two words: Sex appeal.

 

Show scientists as uber-rich, super-cool, superhuman, ultra-virile mega-studs; dripping with cash, and over-weighted down to the point of barely able to move under all the piles of bling and the gaggles of smokin' hot babeage that won't even fit into thier fleets of pimped-out Benzes... and you won't be able to keep the kids away from hittin' the books.

 

But until that day happens, kids will still be more interested in being sports stars, famous actors, or rock and/or hip-hop gods.

 

But Reality T.V. is no more to blame than anything else. It was exactly the same when I was a kid, and the term "Reality T.V." had yet to be invented.

 

Besides, shows like Mythbusters are science and reality T.V. at the same time.

[toms]

My choices:

 

- Ecomomics

- Society values

- Celeb culture

- Diet

- Education system that is based on the needs of 1900s students, not modern ones.

[rccar328]

Personally, I think it is a combination of factors.

 

Media in general shares some blame - not only is reality TV part of it, but educational media for children is of a decidedly lower quality than it has been in the past. Also, kids are watching more television and playing more video games than ever before - this has an effect on mental development, and it's not healthy.

 

Parents have also contributed. There has been a movement away from tradional parenting toward parents trying to be friends with their kids. This does not work, because it isn't real parenting. All it teaches kids is that they can do whatever they want.

 

Discipline at school lends to it - and slack parenting styles effect this area, as well. Corporal punishment is illegal, and in too many cases, teachers' hands have been tied when it comes to discipline problems. I have seen this with my own eyes - positive reinforcement does not work on many undisciplined children, and when teachers are not allowed to use effective punishments, the kids are allowed to keep on misbehaving, disrupting the classroom and taking away from teaching time.

 

Special interests are intruding on the public school system, trying to get their agendas inserted into school curiculum. Our schools are having enough of a hard time teaching the basics as it is, without having to teach the agendas of the environmentalist and homosexual lobbies.

 

Illegal immigration also plays a huge role. My wife and mother-in-law are elementary school teachers, and through them I have met many other teachers, and I hear stories every year about how they keep getting children who cannot speak or write English, and are stuck trying to get them caught up while trying to get the rest of the class up to grade level, most of whom were under-performing when they came into the class.

 

And, in many cases, the teachers themselves play a role. This is less the fault of the teachers themselves as it is the fault of the schools of education, who spend at least as much time trying to indoctrinate students into liberalism as they do teaching them how to be good teachers. This produces below-average teachers who cannot effectively teach our children...and then the situation perpetuates itself when those children themselves become teachers.

 

And the sad thing is, there are likely more factors than that...these are just the ones I can think of.

[TK-8252]

It's rather strange to me how a thread reflecting upon the U.S. educational system and how it is failing in comparison to many other developed nations has been totally hijacked by rccar to be an anti-planet, anti-gay, anti-liberalism rant.

 

Are you honestly saying that feminists/atheists/gays/lesbians/Al Gore are the reasons why the U.S. system fails? When the rest of the developed world is FAR more liberal than anyone in the U.S.? Why is it that when students in other countries are "indoctrinated into liberalism" they do extremely well in school, but when American students are indoctrinated as you say they are, they fail? Hmm?

 

I am in no way defending special interests and lobbyists who inject their propaganda into schools... for example, I hate it how the Christians have essentially taken over the educational system in some parts of America. Maybe THAT is why the U.S. system fails so much. Hmm.

[rccar328]

It's rather strange to me how a thread reflecting upon the U.S. educational system and how it is failing in comparison to many other developed nations has been totally hijacked by rccar to be an anti-planet, anti-gay, anti-liberalism rant.

 

Are you honestly saying that feminists/atheists/gays/lesbians/Al Gore are the reasons why the U.S. system fails? When the rest of the developed world is FAR more liberal than anyone in the U.S.? Why is it that when students in other countries are "indoctrinated into liberalism" they do extremely well in school, but when American students are indoctrinated as you say they are, they fail? Hmm?

 

I am in no way defending special interests and lobbyists who inject their propaganda into schools... for example, I hate it how the Christians have essentially taken over the educational system in some parts of America. Maybe THAT is why the U.S. system fails so much. Hmm.

I'm saying that US schools have already been failing to teach basic education for a long time now...but our schools and our schools of education are being hijacked by liberal special interests, and that is further harming our schools. I'm not saying that anything is the reason that the US system fails. It's a combination of factors. If all you saw in my post was my condemnation of the liberal takeover of the education system, that's your own fault.

[TK-8252]

I'm saying that US schools have already been failing to teach basic education for a long time now...but our schools and our schools of education are being hijacked by liberal special interests, and that is further harming our schools. I'm not saying that anything is the reason that the US system fails. It's a combination of factors. If all you saw in my post was my condemnation of the liberal takeover of the education system, that's your own fault.

 

Except for the fact that the U.S. schools have been hijacked by evangelicals, not liberals.

[rccar328]

Except for the fact that the U.S. schools have been hijacked by evangelicals, not liberals.

I think that depends on where you are in the US. Out here in California, it's liberals.

 

 

How about this: it isn't right for any special interest group to inject their agenda into our schools' curriculum, right or left.

[TK-8252]

I think that depends on where you are in the US. Out here in California, it's liberals.

 

Ahhhhh... I see what you mean.

 

How about this: it isn't right for any special interest group to inject their agenda into our schools' curriculum, right or left.

 

Agreed 100%. I don't want evangelicals setting up creationism, abstinence training, and bible reading any more than I want homosexuals and environmentalists inserting their propaganda into schools. But be fair and don't JUST say liberals and gays and Al Gore are the ones with the special interests.

[rccar328]

Agreed 100%. I don't want evangelicals setting up creationism, abstinence training, and bible reading any more than I want homosexuals and environmentalists inserting their propaganda into schools. But be fair and don't JUST say liberals and gays and Al Gore are the ones with the special interests.

Well, like I said, I live in California...and I've had professors in the school of education try to indoctrinate me for so long, sometimes I think a little evangelical indoctrination would be a nice change...

[Jae Onasi]

Let's see--outside interests dragging away attention from the basics--liberal or conservative interests, doesn't matter.

Unfunded school mandates that take money away from directly educating the students and put it into adminstrative crap.

Teachers being forced to spend so much time on crazy paperwork that they have less time to teach.

A culture of mediocrity--in our efforts to make everyone feel good about themselves and their mediocre performance, we've taken away any incentive for students to work hard and excel. If Joe Mediocre's going to get an A, why should Suzy Brilliant put out any more effort than she has to in order to get the same A?

 

Parents, parents, parents. All of the above pales in comparison to parental responsibility.

I'm the parent of 2 schoolagers. I don't expect the school to have sole responsibility for educating my kids. Nor do I want to give them sole responsibility. Learning happens all day, not just at school. What's that mean? It means I have to spend time with my kids. I have to look at their homework and help them figure out their mistakes (I never do it for them--they'll never learn that way). I have to read with them at night instead of watching TV. I have to take advantage of 'teachable moments'--my youngest was playing with a pile of change and started counting. I stopped what I was doing and sat down with her to show her the differences between the different coins, had her find different numbers of coins, that kind of thing.

My daughter is, for some reason I can't fathom, really fascinated by frogs. So we've spent time looking at books about reptiles, going to the zoo to look at reptiles and amphibians, looking for frogs at uncle's pond, and identifying different kinds of frogs and toads. Would I rather be doing something else besides learning the differences between red-eyed tree frogs and Pacific tree frogs? Sure. I find reptiles about as interesting as bug spray. However, it's important that she learns things, and if it means I spend time with her and learn about frogs, so be it.

I also have to keep on top of what's happening in the classroom. We can't be experts in every subject. If one of the teachers excels in math but not spelling, then I might make sure to work on the spelling a little more at home.

Helping the teacher in the classroom is big. I understand not everyone has the opportunity because of their jobs or whatever to be able to do that, and in the past I didn't either. Now my schedule has freed up enough where I can. I could do other activities, but I choose to make the commitment to their education. Sometimes I help the kids directly, sometimes I help grade papers so that she has more time to spend teaching. It also lets me see how she's teaching things so that I can follow up on that.

At home the rule is homework first before anything else--we want to stress the importance of learning and make that a habit for when they're older and in high school and have to accept more responsibility for their own actions.

Specifically for math and science--we try to work it in to our activities. Both hubby and I have had a lot of science in college so it's a natural interest for us--we'll watch nature and science shows any day, go birdwatching, and so on. For math, the kids are getting to the age where they can do things like measure out stuff for recipes or help measure for building and repairing things. It takes hubby and I longer to get stuff done that way, but it's the day-to-day activities that help reinforce what's going on at school.

As they get older, we'll probably check their homework a lot less often, but we plan on staying involved in their school activities to make sure they're doing well and that they're learning the skills that they'll need for adulthood. I don't want to be an over-protective parent because kids can't learn to be responsible for themselves that way, but I don't want to be one of those parents that sits in front of my big-screen TV all night watching comedies and ignoring what's happening in my kids' lives.

[Halo_92]

^ I like the way you think, Jae.

[Windu Chi]

Two words: Sex appeal.

 

Show scientists as uber-rich, super-cool, superhuman, ultra-virile mega-studs; dripping with cash, and over-weighted down to the point of barely able to move under all the piles of bling and the gaggles of smokin' hot babeage that won't even fit into thier fleets of pimped-out Benzes... and you won't be able to keep the kids away from hittin' the books.

 

But until that day happens, kids will still be more interested in being sports stars, famous actors, or rock and/or hip-hop gods.

 

But Reality T.V. is no more to blame than anything else. It was exactly the same when I was a kid, and the term "Reality T.V." had yet to be invented.

 

Besides, shows like Mythbusters are science and reality T.V. at the same time.

You make a good point.

 

The kids today don't see scientists as cool or see them as the walkway to the money train.

 

It is a damn shame that only money interest people and not the knowledge of math and science.

 

Yes! I know that stupid belief that money rule everything.

 

But that is bulls**t.

 

Kids need to stop being taught that crap.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

At this point I'd like to point out that math is a science, too. X)

 

However, how about "blaming" society, for creating values where knowledge and skill are of no significance. It's all about being rich, poor, top, flop, in, out, religious or not, hiphop or rock, .. you get the point.

*ahem* Math is an art

[TK-8252]

Math is a suck.

 

I've never been good at math and never will be. My brain isn't geared towards solving algebra problems or memorizing the layers of the ocean or the atmosphere. I'm WAY better at history and philosophy and ****.