Mathematics and Science! Why is citizens in the U.S. are doing so poorly at them?

[Ray Jones]

*ahem* Math is an art

Mathial art? W00t.

[MasterRoss08]

I tend to agree with alot of factors here but none of them are on the poll.Those that are listed on the poll are only excuses of what is really to be blamed.( if you wanna blame anything that is). ill just through in my cents while im at it .

 

1 Student. Emperor Devon I agree with what he says on the student. If you really wanted to get good grades on it you would studystudystudy to get good grades on it. It seems some students dont try hard enough or the things they test on them are to hard for there grade level.

 

2 the parent! I would think it would be sad if the parent had no care with what there sons grades are.

 

3 school system Should have its deal of blame here.

 

4 maybe the goverment has to be involved here as well. If they wanted kids grades to go up and up and up they would provide all the money necesarry so the teachers and all the bigwigs can have a big paycheck and still can teach the students.

 

And please dont pull that Religion card on why kids are doing so poorly sheesh. That has nothing to do with why kids are doing so bad with math and science.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Mathial art? W00t.

Yep, the sexy curves of an integral, the lovely... spikes of sigma, IT'S ART DAMNIT.

[toms]

Illegal immigrants make up (at most) between 3-6% of the population.. i don't see how they can wreck classes. And legal immigrants would speak different languages as well, so their legal/illegal status wouldn't make much difference. Plus there are a lot of countries in the world where kids learn in 2 or more languages, and they don't seem to have any trouble.

 

America has always been a country made up of immigrant groups (polish, italian, irish, spanish, etc..) and that never effected the education system much.

 

And since when was being liberal a "special interst group"? Its a cultural attitude. Before the 60s cultural attitudes were very traditional. In the 60s they became much more liberal. Now they are becoming more traditional again. This inevitably influences those who teach, and are taught.

I don't think this "libralism" itself is the problem.. though it did cause some problems that the old traditional system didn't have.. but it also brought a lot of benefits. However the school system hasn't really evolved since those attitudes of the 70s.. it needs to evolve to the '00s.

 

Also, if you watch programmes like Supernanny (do you get that in the US?) it becomes clear that the tearaway kids that shout and scream and hit things are the ones with the parents that shout and scream and hit things. The host of that show seems to be able to "fix" all these problem kids without any need to use corporal punishment.

 

-

 

i'm not actually sure the education system IS failing. It all depends on what it's goals are. And i think that is half the problem.. no one has ever really decided what the POINT of schools is. If it is to get as many people as possible to have a basic understanding of as many subjects as possible then the current system is doing better than any before. Its churning through a record number of students, as quickly and cheaply as possible.. and teaching them a record number of things... its just not making them OUTSTANDING in any way.

 

There are lots of cases of people going through the current system and doing great.. and usually they experience roughtly the same system as those that do badly (though poorer areas almost always do worse).

Is it that they are just smarter? I doubt it.. i think its down to motivation. Wih the current education system, you only really get back what you put in.. and most kids aren't motivated to put much in.

 

This is probably due to the fact that, in todays fast moving world, attention spans are shorter, and kids are fed a media diet that tells them that they don't need to study or work hard to be sucessful.. they just need to be famous. So maybe all this z-list celeb culture and reality tv IS one of the causes.

 

But what can you do about it?

 

First everyone needs to agree on what the actual goal is. I bet if you ask a lot of teachers or education officials then you'll get a whole different set of answers. If a company didn't know what it's goal was then it wouldn't be very efficient!

 

I think that the aim should be to (a) prepare kids for real life (which current schools don't do at all) and (b) teach kids the skills they need for work (which current schools tend to do the opposite of).

 

Lessons should be shorter, broken into smaller chunks. They should be more varied and dynamic. Innovation and creativity should be rewarded. Homework should be to write a GOOD report on one page.. not a report padded out to 10 pages. Emphasis should be on goals, motivations and team working.

 

Split kids into different groups every 6 weeks and give them a different project to complete as a group. then have everything they learn in those weeks contribute and relate to that project (be it maths, history, or even french).

Have projects that reflect different careers, so they might actually have an idea of what real life is like, and have some information about what thy like when they make important choices about subjects.

 

Use modern techniques, like computer programes, phonics, flashcards, memory reinforcement, etc.. I've got some really cool software to help me learn japanese.. i never had stuff like that when i was learning french at school.. so they should get to use these things in schools.

 

Explain to kids what adult life is like, and how the choices they make will affect their future.. which is something too far ahead for most of them to see.

Make them set long and short term goals.. write them down, and then review them periodically to see how they are doing.

 

Give them self study periods.. with the resources they need to learn.. but make them have goals and make sure they work towards them.

 

Enforce a strict dress code. Not uniforms.. but smart, businesslike.

 

Give them good nutritious food. (This has been proven repeatedly to have a major effect on results, attention spans, behaviour, etc..)

 

Make them responsible for the classroom. Before each lesson they have to set it up. After school they have a rota to clean up the mess, put things away, etc.

 

Make school discipline sensible. Most school discipline is pointless, because it isn't a punishment to the kids and it often seems unfair or random. Make the reasons WHY they are punished obvious and accountable. Kids now all play computer games.. they understand how the systems in those games work. SO make something like that. they get points for achievements.. loose points for bad behaviour.. different points levels have different rewards/punishments.

 

Behaviour points shouldn't just affect the individual, but should affect the whole project group, or maybe the house if its split into houses (harry potter style). Kids dont' care so much about being punished themselves as they do about letting the whole group down.

 

There are lots of other things you could do. Basically I think the system is underfunded.. and no one has the guts or vision to make major changes to how things work. But i think a lot of the teachers who complain are just stuck in an outdated routine.. they need to look at WHY they are teaching, what their goals are, what the kids will respond to, and then try and cahnge their teaching methods to match today's times. Not just blame illegal immigrants, or other external factors that they can't control.

[Windu Chi]

Yep, the sexy curves of an integral, the lovely... spikes of sigma, IT'S ART DAMNIT.

 

Mathematics is the skill of pattern recognition:

 

1. Arithmetic: the patterns of numbers
   
2. Calculus: the patterns of motion
   
3. Probability: the patterns of uncertainty
   
4. Logic: the patterns of reasoning
   
5. Geometry: the patterns of shapes
   
6. Algebra: the patterns of complex relationships of the structure of mathematical quanities
   

[MasterRoss08]

Hhmm good points there toms nicely thought up. I pretty much think that it all comes down to funding with me. public schools I live around stink ( highschools). And then comes the money issue. (we dont got the funding we need all that nonsense stuff) When they pay themselves nice good salaries and raise taxes and all that yackity stuff. People think they pay to much taxes on schools when kids test schools scores still stink. Is it cause the kids are not learning? you decide

[Q]

The US public education system is the laughing-stock of the civilized world. Only our higher education system can favorably compare with those elsewhere.

 

Why? Simple: complacency.

 

How could it be improved? Easy: capitalism! Give it an education alternative to compete against for all our hard-earned tax money and we would see dramatic improvement. It would have to improve or go bankrupt.

 

A return to teaching children how to think instead of what to think would be a nice improvement as well. The curriculum should be free of the influence of any political agendas (right OR left).

 

Has anyone seen John Stossle's report "Stupid in America"? He raises some very interesting points (which undeniably put him on the teachers' unions' fecal roster!).

[Weed Master]

i bet the dudes cant concentrate cause of all the girls in the class. i know i cant im failing three classes chemistry biology and art foundations

[Q]

^^^

Um, uh... The lack of concentration couldn't have anything to do with your screen name, could it?

[Datheus]

Can someone post some real numbers please? I remember reading that British children did JUST as poorly as American children on a World War 2 test.

[igyman]

I say education system, though the answer is a little more complicated than that. Namely, the politicians in the USA do not bother themselves with improving the country's education system because it suits them to have citizens who are not too smart. They may be well educated in one matter, but completely uneducated in a lot of others, which makes them easier to manipulate. I am ceretain that many, if not all, American members of the forums will object to this statement and that's their right and I can understand it, but they are, IMO (and a lot of other people's all around the world), kidding themselves, if they believe their education system is good, let alone the best there is. It's far from it, my friends.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Teachers, the Internet, TV, and many other reasons can affect those things, though it ultimarely comes down to the student. Blaming teachers, television, the whole system even, is one of the things that irritates me to the extreme. It comes down to the student for how well they want to do.

Your parents' attitude, your school's system, your school's social environment, the curriculum, outside influences, and so on mean a lot. Or do you really think that when students who go to good schools get better grades, it's because they're coincidentally less lazy than those who go to less-good schools?

 

You can read cases in which someone from a poor family in an inner city became a brain surgeon, or where someone from a rich family was sent to an Ivy League school and failed miserably, due to sheer stupidity.

And they're all exceptions.

 

Every person chooses what happens with them.

So when this friend of mine got this really nasty asthma-ish lung sickness causing her to lose lots of school it's because she chose it. Right.

 

There are tonnes and tonnes of things that influence your life that you don't choose. Everything from death in the family to sickness to bullying other things, big and small.

 

If the kids just plain don't like math and science, not a thing anyone can do will change that.

In many cases, things may change that. I used to hate writing in the New Normegian language form - now I love it.

 

Why you believe reality TV is the answer, windu6, is beyond me.

Ditto. I could rant on about reality TV and the bullies in the Idol judge panel and about a good deal of other destructive "entertainment" programs that are really not much more than organized abuse. But them being responsible for students in the US doing relatively poorly at mathematics and science? Nonsense.

 

And in any event, television has no effect when the kid is in the classroom. It's not like any responsible teacher is going to tell everyone they can watch pointless shows while (s)he's talking.

"Shaddup, miss, I can't hear the telly:mad:!"

()

 

There are shows out there devoted to science and math anyway, windu6. I've not heard of any students with poor grades who frequently watch those, but if there are, it's still their fault. I don't watch TV, but I've seen an episode of some show devoted to science, and it looked very informative.

It boils down to how it's presented. I think MacGyver is a prime example on how you can make physics and chemistry fun and interesting.

 

But even if reality TV was replaced with educational shows, just how many people would watch them?

Oh! Oh! Oh! "Arithmetic Idol!" You line up an insecure little child in front of a panel of pre-menstrual judges and yell at him when he answers wrongly! Then they tell the viewers the correct answer and reminds them (and especially the poor sap being yelled at) that if you don't do well, you'll go to Hell with teh fagz and the liberals:D!

 

Worst thing is, it would sell:rolleyes:.

 

The reason they're watching reality TV in the first place is for entertainment, and for someone who actually likes it, I doubt science and math could provide any form of enjoyment when on a screen over a book.

Because?

 

I'd 10 times more have Richard Dawkins talk about evolution on Google Video than read what he has to say in a book. Much more lively.

 

To summarize my points: it all comes down to the student.

And to summarize my own points, that's bollocks. Some kids are given better environments for learning, and some are given worse environments for learning. Some are encouraged to do well, others are neglected. Some have plenty of buddies, others are friendless and abused by the teacher.

 

However, I'm more concerned over why topics that most kids won't use extensively in their lives are mandatory to take.

Because schools are there for teaching kids stuff?

 

Corporal punishment is illegal, and in too many cases, teachers' hands have been tied when it comes to discipline problems. I have seen this with my own eyes - positive reinforcement does not work on many undisciplined children, and when teachers are not allowed to use effective punishments, the kids are allowed to keep on misbehaving, disrupting the classroom and taking away from teaching time.

Corporal punishment=Bad and should not be used even as a last resort. And there are other types of correction than positive reinforcement.

 

A culture of mediocrity--in our efforts to make everyone feel good about themselves and their mediocre performance, we've taken away any incentive for students to work hard and excel. If Joe Mediocre's going to get an A, why should Suzy Brilliant put out any more effort than she has to in order to get the same A?

If you're refering to how students get 'A's just for turning in work, I definetly have to agree. It's idiotic that a student who turns in half a page gets the same 100% that the one who turned in nearly two pages.

 

Special interests are intruding on the public school system, trying to get their agendas inserted into school curiculum. Our schools are having enough of a hard time teaching the basics as it is, without having to teach the agendas of the environmentalist and homosexual lobbies.

Aaaw, poor you, are they teaching you that Papa Bush the Merciful is wrong again:(?

[Jae Onasi]

Ooh, any thread that has MacGyver in it is a good one.

 

You're right, though, he made science/chemistry fun. Where else can you stop a sulfuric acid leak by stuffing Hershey chocolate bars into the crack of the tank?

 

We're playing the SW RPG with our kids. You have to watch your stats and do dice rolls and calculate damage, so there's a sneaky way to fit math in.

 

Which reminds me, that's a great excuse for me to use when the rest of my family rolls their eyes and tells me I'm being the uber-geek again. "We're playing it for our son's learning...."

[Tyrion]

We're playing the SW RPG with our kids. You have to watch your stats and do dice rolls and calculate damage, so there's a sneaky way to fit math in.

 

When I was young, like around 7 or 10, my father got me hooked onto games like Magic the Gathering and Warhammer 40k. My family was full of geeks, so we'd make it a thing to play a game of whatever every few weeks or so. I think him letting me play those games was a brilliant idea: I absorbed and understood the entire contents of the Warhammer 40k rulebook -rules, fluff, and all- which was an extraordinary feat as any who played the game may know. I painted my army, managed my squads, and learned how every little thing I did had some other reaction to what I should do or what my opponent would do. My cousins were fairly competetive too, and had few qualms squashing my feeble attempts at victory; I had to handle defeat and setbacks which is a skill few kids really know how to deal with. I learned quite a few valuable lessons and it was time better spent then than on video games or television.