Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?

[EnIgmA_XX]

Given Revan's power at the end of the game - good luck!

 

i can't help but agree with this; seriously, Revan would tear those poor republic soldiers to shreds.

 

No. Torture. And cruel and unusual. That's barbarism, not justice.

 

well maybe Revan should've used her brain before she decided that she'd just love to kill all of those people.

 

Revan is just, well, evil. she stole the lives, hopes, and dreams of all those people that she killed. btw, that's a lot of people, to say the least. i don't get how you think that sentencing her harshly means we're barbaric. in fact, i could argue that letting mass murderers live is rather barbaric as well. if you've lost your family, and the person that killed them just walks around in your face, that's worse torture than anything i could think of right now.

[Masgrtgr]

Revan wouldn't only fight Republic soldiers. And then there's the Leviathan example.

[Allronix]

Probably the most thorny issue - and I'm not sure if Bioware intended this or not - is "What gives someone their identity?" Is <Fullname> Revan, or is <Fullname> a new entity in all ways save genetics?

 

Is it their name? Their memories? If so, then Revan died on that bridge. Even with K2, I somehow doubt all the memories came back. It's likely something akin to the Star Map visions. New name, new memories, new allegances, and attachments to the crew the help keep her stable. (The Revan I have in my head? Mission Vao and Carth Onasi had more to do with her refusal of the Sith than a hundred Jedi. I also don't think it's any accident that they are your first two party members AND higher on the alignment scale than the Jedi party members.)

 

Is it their genetics, their body, their fingerprints? If so, then what you were playing should be brought before a firing squad for genocide, high treason, murder, and Crimes Against Sentience. And put the Jedi Council on trial for giveing aid, comfort, and shelter to the enemy.

 

There is not enough evidence either way. To many in the Republic, the distinction would be academic - especially given the attitude everyone has towards Force Users in K2. And, no matter what seems to happen, the mob will thirst for blood.

 

Yet, the activist in me recognizes that <Fullname>, if Light Side, is fundamentally NOT Revan. The actions aren't what Revan would do, the words are not what Revan would say. There isn't even enough left of Revan to reliably reconstruct. (Even DS!Bastila would have no enticement to lie about Revan's mind being too damaged to fully recover). The Kashyyyk and Ratakan computers both did not recognize <Fullname> as Revan until reconfigured. Given that, execution of <Fullname> would be putting an innocent person to death.

 

In good faith and legal precedent, it is better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent be hung. Therefore, I choose option #3, and recognize <Fullname> as a different legal entity than Revan.

[Jediphile]

well maybe Revan should've used her brain before she decided that she'd just love to kill all of those people.

 

Revan is just, well, evil. she stole the lives, hopes, and dreams of all those people that she killed. btw, that's a lot of people, to say the least. i don't get how you think that sentencing her harshly means we're barbaric. in fact, i could argue that letting mass murderers live is rather barbaric as well. if you've lost your family, and the person that killed them just walks around in your face, that's worse torture than anything i could think of right now.

 

Wow! So in order to punish Revan for his crimes, we should all BECOME Revan by doing exactly the same thing and enjoying it too.

 

You cannot do that, because Revan's guilt or innocence aside, that would be a crime against your nature - you would lose a part of your own soul and in your zeal for revenge become the very thing you claim to hate. Welcome to dark side!

 

Oh sure, you can hide it all behind a nice, convenient euphemism and call it "justice", but that's really just sophistry to excuse the thirst for revenge. And if you give in to that, then you're making just the same mistake that you accuse Revan of. It will also bring no closure. As a chinese proverb goes, "He who seeks vengeance must dig two graves: one for his enemy and one for himself"

[Nancy Allen``]

Hmm, maybe you should be tried and executed. You are Revan after all. You might not have known it but you had committed the crimes Revan did. So, lethal injection or the electric chair?

[EnIgmA_XX]

Wow! So in order to punish Revan for his crimes, we should all BECOME Revan by doing exactly the same thing and enjoying it too.

 

we aren't mass murderers, Jediphile, nor do we torture people. it's a very big difference. you need to understand that. we are killing a mass murderer, while the mass murderer you've compared myslef to has killed an almost stupid amount of innocent people. if you can't see that difference, then Mission Vao might as well be hanged for being a petty theif.

 

You cannot do that, because Revan's guilt or innocence aside, that would be a crime against your nature - you would lose a part of your own soul and in your zeal for revenge become the very thing you claim to hate. Welcome to dark side!

 

Oh sure, you can hide it all behind a nice, convenient euphemism and call it "justice", but that's really just sophistry to excuse the thirst for revenge. And if you give in to that, then you're making just the same mistake that you accuse Revan of. It will also bring no closure. As a chinese proverb goes, "He who seeks vengeance must dig two graves: one for his enemy and one for himself"

 

it is justice, Jediphile. letting mass murderers live is what isn't justice. plus, i'm a third party, so i don't actually feel any hatred to Revan, therefore, you can't go around claiming i want revenge. 100% justice, Jediphile.

[Jediphile]

we aren't mass murderers, Jediphile, nor do we torture people. it's a very big difference. you need to understand that. we are killing a mass murderer, while the mass murderer you've compared myslef to has killed an almost stupid amount of innocent people. if you can't see that difference, then Mission Vao might as well be hanged for being a petty theif.

 

Call it what you will - if the reason is vengeance, then it costs a piece of your soul whether the state sanctions it or not. Again, that's just a convenient euphemism used as sophistry.

 

it is justice, Jediphile. letting mass murderers live is what isn't justice. plus, i'm a third party, so i don't actually feel any hatred to Revan, therefore, you can't go around claiming i want revenge. 100% justice, Jediphile.

 

"There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute"

 

- Captain Picard, Star Trek: The Next Generation - "Justice"

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

 

- Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars: Episode III - "Revenge of the Sith"

[Nancy Allen``]

100% justice? So you should be put to death as you are Revan. It matters not that you didn't know, that had already been established. What matters is that you are him, and for the crimes you committed as Revan you must be put to death.

[Vaelastraz]

No. Revan should not be put to death. That would be revenge and not justice.

If anything imprisonment.

 

Given how powerful Revan is, he can actually do a lot to "redeem" himself. Plus, he stopped Darth Malak and the Mandalorians already. A lifelong service for the Republic is the appropriate punishment IMO.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Call it what you will - if the reason is vengeance, then it costs a piece of your soul whether the state sanctions it or not. Again, that's just a convenient euphemism used as sophistry.

 

as i said before, it's not revenge. of couse, justice and revenge are pretty much two sides of the same coin, but by saying revenge you seem to be mixing up my intentions.

 

okay then, Jediphile, so let's say that we have someone that has murdered 40 people. we bring him/her to court, and the person gets sentenced to death. is that revenge? are we all of a sudden ds and evil incarnate because we stopped a killer? same thing with Revan.

 

"There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute"

 

- Captain Picard, Star Trek: The Next Generation - "Justice"

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

 

- Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars: Episode III - "Revenge of the Sith"

 

but we don't need laws to be absolute, Jediphile. non absolute laws doesn't stop Revan from being a killer, so it doesn't stop Revan from being guilty.

 

100% justice? So you should be put to death as you are Revan. It matters not that you didn't know, that had already been established. What matters is that you are him, and for the crimes you committed as Revan you must be put to death.

 

hm, i don't think i've killed anyone in my lifetime...

 

No. Revan should not be put to death. That would be revenge and not justice. If anything imprisonment.

 

it would be revenge? so killing a killer is revenge now? i wonder how many innocent people Revan killed when he/she started the JCW. Telos, no doubt had quite a few innocents on it.

 

Given how powerful Revan is, he can actually do a lot to "redeem" himself. Plus, he stopped Darth Malak and the Mandalorians already. A lifelong service for the Republic is the appropriate punishment IMO.

 

power is irrelevant. we've already said that some pages before on this thread. a weak Revan deserves the same sentence as an uber Revan.

[Jediphile]

as i said before, it's not revenge. of couse, justice and revenge are pretty much two sides of the same coin, but by saying revenge you seem to be mixing up my intentions.

 

okay then, Jediphile, so let's say that we have someone that has murdered 40 people. we bring him/her to court, and the person gets sentenced to death. is that revenge? are we all of a sudden ds and evil incarnate because we stopped a killer? same thing with Revan.

 

Since I generally consider the use of the death penalty to be state-sanctioned murder, I would say yes to that question. That the state rubberstamps it changes nothing.

 

And you're still denying the possibility of rehabilitation. Can Revan be redeemed and become a beneficial and productive member of society again? Since Revan already saved the Republic from Malak's tyranny, we already know the answer to that question is yes. If Revan was still evil and showed no signs of change, it would be a different matter, but we don't even have that to consider. Why won't you acknowledge that?

 

but we don't need laws to be absolute, Jediphile. non absolute laws doesn't stop Revan from being a killer, so it doesn't stop Revan from being guilty.

 

"The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war."

 

A claim made by Kreia that nobody has questioned. Before we consider Revan's evil deeds, let us just acknowledge that nobody in the Republic would probably have lived, if Revan had not defied the jedi and fought the Mandalorians.

 

Since you seem so preoccupied with numbers, let us consider how many more people would have died at the Mandalorians' hands, if Revan had not turned against the jedi and fought in the war. Were more people saved or lost by Revan's choices?

 

No, that's not to excuse Revan or "make him break even", but it IS relevant to consider that Revan's intent to save the Republic from the Mandalorians and then the true Sith is what brought him to the dark side, and that he then saved it from Malak after his redemption. It's as if you won't acknowledge that Revan did good too, or at least won't let it count for anything in the verdict.

 

You're so fond of examples, so let's take another one. Let's say that an agent gets a tip that a terrorist is about to detonate a suicide bomb in the middle of some big city, but you just have the tip. The agent can get near him, but shoots the presumed terrorist before he gets a chance to detonate his bomb. All good - the agent just saved lots of lives. Except the terrorist wasn't a terrorist at all. The tip was false or just mistaken, and an innocent man is now dead. So, since motives and other actions (like loyal service to your country) don't matter, now the agent must be executed in the name of justice, right? I mean, he clearly did wrong - he killed an innocent man! The penalty for that is death. 100% justice!

 

This is the point that both Picard and Obi-Wan is trying to make - you can't apply the rules without considering the circumstances on a case-by-case basis. Because if you do, you may be following the letter of the law, but you would invariably end up making a frontal assault on its very soul at some point.

[EnIgmA_XX]

And you're still denying the possibility of rehabilitation. Can Revan be redeemed and become a beneficial and productive member of society again? Since Revan already saved the Republic from Malak's tyranny, we already know the answer to that question is yes. If Revan was still evil and showed no signs of change, it would be a different matter, but we don't even have that to consider. Why won't you acknowledge that?

 

i'm not awknoledging it much because Revan made a conscious decision to kill all the people he/she killed. if Revan killed someone accidentaly, of course there's redemption, it was a mistake. but Revan made that decision to go to war and end countless lives. if:

 

1. the decision was made only by you (no major events pressuring you to made a certain decision e.g. gun to your head, hostage deal, etc. and no, the dark side isn't an excuse)

2. had bad intent

3. you kill people unnecesarily

 

if these or most of these are fulfilled, then the person is in fact, guilty (although keep in mind that the list might not be complete/foolproof. as you say best: "you can't apply the rules without considering the circumstances on a case-by-case basis.") Revan definitely goes in 1 and 3, maybe 2. not even mentioning how many people Revan killed and how he/she killed them. ack, those poor jedi...so Revan is guilty. i don't care that "oh, Revan helps this person" and "Revan looks out for Wookie rights" i don't care. Revan is a murderer. Revan chose to murderer through his/her own will because he/she had the ability to break out of the ds. Revan killed a lot of little kids and innocent families. Revan is guilty.

 

"The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war."

 

A claim made by Kreia that nobody has questioned. Before we consider Revan's evil deeds, let us just acknowledge that nobody in the Republic would probably have lived, if Revan had not defied the jedi and fought the Mandalorians.

 

Since you seem so preoccupied with numbers, let us consider how many more people would have died at the Mandalorians' hands, if Revan had not turned against the jedi and fought in the war. Were more people saved or lost by Revan's choices?

 

No, that's not to excuse Revan or "make him break even", but it IS relevant to consider that Revan's intent to save the Republic from the Mandalorians and then the true Sith is what brought him to the dark side, and that he then saved it from Malak after his redemption. It's as if you won't acknowledge that Revan did good too, or at least won't let it count for anything in the verdict.

 

yes i won't awknowledge it, or at least, not as much as you do. you know why? you looked at any little kids lately, Jediphile? you know how many of those Revan killed? i don't even know. but i know that a damn lot were killed because of this bone headed war that Revan raged, and through the bombing of telos, other cities, other worlds, i find Revan to be completely guilty.

 

You're so fond of examples, so let's take another one. Let's say that an agent gets a tip that a terrorist is about to detonate a suicide bomb in the middle of some big city, but you just have the tip. The agent can get near him, but shoots the presumed terrorist before he gets a chance to detonate his bomb. All good - the agent just saved lots of lives. Except the terrorist wasn't a terrorist at all. The tip was false or just mistaken, and an innocent man is now dead. So, since motives and other actions (like loyal service to your country) don't matter, now the agent must be executed in the name of justice, right? I mean, he clearly did wrong - he killed an innocent man! The penalty for that is death. 100% justice!

 

did the agent know that he/she was killing an innocent person? no.

did Revan know he/she was killing many innocent people? yes.

 

how many people did the agent kill? 1.

how many people did Revan kill? [insert stupidly large number here].

 

is the agent guilty? no.

is Revan guilty? yup.

 

This is the point that both Picard and Obi-Wan is trying to make - you can't apply the rules without considering the circumstances on a case-by-case basis. Because if you do, you may be following the letter of the law, but you would invariably end up making a frontal assault on its very soul at some point.

 

i am considering the case, Jediphile. just because i don't agree with you doesn't mean i'm ignorant or don't look at the big picture. i'm looking at Revan's case, and i really, really don't like the decisions that Revan made.

[Jediphile]

i'm not awknoledging it much because Revan made a conscious decision to kill all the people he/she killed.

 

That's a supposition based on your postulate that Revan could have casually decided to turn away from the dark side at any time again. At the very least that claim is very much in dispute, so it seems rather premature to jump straight to next conclusion as if it were an established fact.

 

if Revan killed someone accidentaly, of course there's redemption, it was a mistake. but Revan made that decision to go to war and end countless lives. if:

 

1. the decision was made only by you (no major events pressuring you to made a certain decision e.g. gun to your head, hostage deal, etc. and no, the dark side isn't an excuse)

2. had bad intent

3. you kill people unnecesarily

 

So you would also condemn John Sheridan on Babylon 5 to death, I take it? He let the shadows butcher the narn, because his side was still defenseless against the enemy at that point in time and would only have revealed what little he had found out at that time and held all the hope for survival for all races in the future. In short, he accepted the sacrifice of countless narn for the hope of being able to fight the shadows in the future. That was his decision.

 

Points 2 and 3 do not count for Revan, since you ignore the idea that Revan might have done it to serve the wider goal of the coming war against the true Sith. Given that Revan wanted to save the Republic in some form from the true Sith, it can at least be argued that this is not bad intent or that those people needed to die for the greater good, just as the narn needed to die in Babylon 5.

 

Revan killed a lot of little kids and innocent families. Revan is guilty.

 

If you're going to be that specific, then point those innocents out. Where and when did Revan kill little children? What were their names?

 

yes i won't awknowledge it, or at least, not as much as you do. you know why? you looked at any little kids lately, Jediphile? you know how many of those Revan killed? i don't even know. but i know that a damn lot were killed because of this bone headed war that Revan raged, and through the bombing of telos, other cities, other worlds, i find Revan to be completely guilty.[/Quote]

 

Even children die in wars. It's sad, certainly, but there it is. Or are you going to claim that no child was ever killed during an attack by the rebellion against the empire? It would be a nice fairy-tale, but it is not a very compelling suggestion. Even Mandalorians have children. How many children did the Republic fleet kill during the wars? If you're going to argue this point, then you have to point out the specific children or at least that Revan deliberately went out of his way to kill children and families. I don't think I've ever seen any evidence to even suggest that by anyone in Star Wars, since that is such a terrible area that few writers of fiction will want to go anywhere near it.

 

did the agent know that he/she was killing an innocent person? no.

did Revan know he/she was killing many innocent people? yes.

 

how many people did the agent kill? 1.

how many people did Revan kill? [insert stupidly large number here].

 

is the agent guilty? no.

is Revan guilty? yup.

 

Jack Bauer has certainly killed people on "24" he knew to be innocent or allowed them to die for the sake of furthering his hunt for terrorists. Yet he is constantly hailed as a hero. I have never seen anyone demand the death penalty for his actions.

 

Let's say our agent is following a terrorist to where he has hidden a nuclear bomb. The terrorist hasn't noticed our agent, but he has noticed that a family with little children has recognized him, and now he wants to kill them, so that they won't give him away. Now, does our agent intervene? If he does, then he will never find the bomb, since the terrorist will kill himself before giving its location away. But if the agent doesn't intervene, then the entire family is going to be brutally murdered.

 

This is quite similar to the scenario Revan is put before by the starmap computer on Kashyyyk. He knows a city is doomed because he has decoded enemy transmissions. But if he saves the city, the enemy will know he has found a way to decode their messages. Revan can choose to let the city die and justify it to the computer on the basis that letting them die will give him a tactical advantage that will save more lives in the long run. Taking this choice does not give the character DS points, even though you're effectively sacrificing an entire city full of families.

 

i am considering the case, Jediphile. just because i don't agree with you doesn't mean i'm ignorant or don't look at the big picture. i'm looking at Revan's case, and i really, really don't like the decisions that Revan made.

 

Well, I don't like Revan's choice here either, but that's not the point. The question is whether Revan really could have done things differently under the circumstances he faced at the time. Given that he had fallen to the dark side - and IMHO against his wishes - and saw a larger threat in the true Sith, I cannot condemn Revan for his choice. This doesn't make Revan innocent, of course, but as Admiral Adama on Battlestar Galactica would point out, "not guilty is not the same as innocent". And in a trial, the choice is between guilty or not guilty. Revan is not innocent, but we're not trying to establish whether he is. And I certainly find reasonable doubt.

[Emperor Devon]

but in addition, Revan will have to partially rely on resources from the republic.

 

Which will naturally mean the true Sith will attack them, to prevent Revan's forces from being supplied. But since his forces don't control those planets, they will be swiftly conquered (as you have acknowledged earlier) and only help fuel the true Sith's war effort.

 

I see Revan controlling those planets an excellent solution. You'd have a fleet large enough to defeat the true Sith defending them, while rarely having to worry about supplies at the same time.

 

of course, they won't need too much because they already have the star forge to make ships, and the creation of them is probably what takes the most resources, as opposed to just maintaining them.

 

Oh, you would be surprised. Your standard mile-long capital ship's reactor can consume up to 40,000 tons of fuel per second in hyperspace, and Revan would have what, thousands of those ships? I recall the Star Forge could produce and shape metals, but not fossil fuels. And there's also the matter of providing three square meals a day with thousands of calories for the billions of people working in the military... The Star Forge can't produce foodstuffs either.

 

No, maintaining an army can in the long term can use up far more resources than raising one.

 

then how are they going to do it? it means that they too must have a lot of fuel. and if they have a lot of fuel then Revan can loot that fuel.

 

The problem being Revan has no portable means of taking that fuel out of their ships and putting it into his... Combined with what the enemy has already used up, the resources it takes to haul those ships back to the drydocks and the possibility that the enemy will choose to drop a match in their fuel tanks to prevent Revan's forces from looting it, you're not going to have a whole lot left. Hell, even then they might use an incompatible brand of fuel.

 

Evne then it might not still be enough. Revan has an infinite fleet at his disposal, whereas the true Sith likely have a smaller one. They may be able to supply their own military, but not matter how much of it he loots I doubt Revan would ever have enough to supply his own (larger) one.

 

no, if they're going to fight a war, they're going to be properly prepared. that means lots of fuel, food, etc. and that means lots of loot for Revan.

 

No it doesn't. They're prepared for war, and they're prepared to use up those resources - that's why they even produce them in the case that they run out. Revan's forces would never be able to get the exact amount of resources they need when the enemy is already using them, and prepared to destroy them whenever it's possible they could lose them.

 

the republic will also provide some. and Revan won't go on needless battles. they'll take it from battles that are fought normally.

 

What I said above on the Republic...

 

again, the republic will provide some. and you've also helped me prove my point that the true sith fleets will have many resources on board.

 

What I said above on the true Sith using them...

 

then bring the ships and captured ships to the drydocks, ED. so easy.

 

What I said above...

 

no, they can't. to the republic they're all jedi. have you visited Dantoine when playing tsl lately? talk to a few people there. {snip}

 

That's great, but I'm talking about the pre-KotOR era. (Back when the Jedi were shining bastions of justice that didn't start civil wars)

 

HERO, ED. it's not the exact same. and heroes usually hold some weight with people, whoever they are.

 

I think I've gathered the hero part. But holding weight with the people is one thing, influencing politics is another. Movie starts are quite popular and have legions of fanboys/girls, though you never see them trying to pass laws in Congress. To actually do something political you have to be a part of the government, not just popular with the masses.

 

On another note, I've found we're drifting a bit far off from whether Revan should've attacked the Republic or not, (thus determining whether he should be punished or not) which is fairly unrelated to all this talk about providing foodstuffs for his troops. Since you've acknowledged Revan could only save the Republic as a darksider, that the Republic on its own is incapable of defending itself against the true Sith, it seems only logical to me that Revan should control it, and as an added bonus be able to supply his forces.

[Nancy Allen``]

hm, i don't think i've killed anyone in my lifetime...

 

Ah, but you did when you were Revan. You might not remember a thing of what you did when you were the Dark Lord but you were with Bastila searching for the Star Forge were you not? That means you are Revan, and are responsible for the crimes he, you, committed. So, lethal injection or electric chair?

[Allronix]

Wow! So in order to punish Revan for his crimes, we should all BECOME Revan by doing exactly the same thing and enjoying it too.

 

You cannot do that, because Revan's guilt or innocence aside, that would be a crime against your nature - you would lose a part of your own soul and in your zeal for revenge become the very thing you claim to hate. Welcome to dark side!

 

Oh sure, you can hide it all behind a nice, convenient euphemism and call it "justice", but that's really just sophistry to excuse the thirst for revenge. And if you give in to that, then you're making just the same mistake that you accuse Revan of. It will also bring no closure. As a chinese proverb goes, "He who seeks vengeance must dig two graves: one for his enemy and one for himself"

 

And we get a lovely view on the futility of revenge via Carth taking down Saul. He charges his enemy, kills the man that brought death to his world and betrayal to his heart. It didn't bring him peace, though, and he fully admits it. What does bring him peace is letting it go, focusing on his promise to protect Revan from herself/himself. In the case of a DSF Revan, he even makes a last-ditch effort to sacrifice his life for her redemption. "I can't hate you. Even now. Even after...after...after all you've done. I love you like I haven't loved anyone or anything since my wife died, and I didn't think that was possible."

[SilentScope001]

Since when do people assume that those who think Revan should be held responsible for his crimes want revenge?

 

What many people want is not revenge, but rather, to ensure Revan does not do these Crimes again.

 

Saul had to be killed. Sure, he blew up Telos, there is no way to save him for the lives he has lost. Revenge is meaningless. But Saul would end up destroying other planets, heh, he was there at Taris, and blew up Taris under orders from Malak. This had nothing to do with revenge, Saul had to die because if he was spared, he would continue to kill, hurt and plunder. Carth had to kill Saul to save the Republic.

 

And Revan was never redeemed in my eyes. This is under debate, and I know you guys disagree with me, but I believe Revan was never redeemed, only his reprogrammed Personality of the Jedi Council. Zeek-El even said it in TSL that Revan was forced to join with the Jedi Council, via that false personality...it was never his choice. And, this false personality will break apart, once those memories come back, and the true personality, that of Revan, will emerge. That personality must be dealt with, and since that personality is not redeemed, he should be treated as a therat, and a threat that have to be controlled.

 

Why I point this? Because I don't want anyone to control the debate and say whatever they want without being questioned.

[Allronix]

True. Revan wasn't redeemed. Revan died on that bridge, as far as I could discern. What woke up on the Endar Spire was shaped by choices made by that persona.

 

And while <Fullname> may not have had a choice to join the Jedi, Taris was the place that established what <Fullname> was made of. Stay with the Beks or challenge the Vulkars? Save people's lives by parting with scarce credits, or end them for profit? Look the other way at injustices, or challenge them? Save or condemn Outcasts that can give nothing back?

 

After becoming a Jedi...Save or destroy Juhani? Side with Czerka or the Wookiees? Pollute Manaan or save the Progenitor? Embrace what Korriban has to offer or encourage others to get off the rock? Side with the Elders or the One? Do you encourage Bastila to keep or give up the holocron? Do you kill Griff, leave him to hang, or help? Do you kill Dustil? Do you double cross Uthar, double-double cross Yuthura, or backstab them both? Do you side with Bastila at the temple, convince her that she's not utterly lost, or do you fail and end her life?

 

By those choices and alleigences made in game, we are the ones growing that new personality. The Dark Side shucks off the persona, but the Light Side options are persona growing into person. Maybe a spin-off thread should be, "Is <Fullname> still actually Revan?"

[GOD Radu]

Nice speech dude, you totally ruined my perspective on this story. ...snip..." the journey is important not the destination " ... is so 5 minutes ago.

 

God Radu, while you are entitled to your opinion, so is everyone else. If you have something constructive to add to your argument regarding the post-modernist era, you are welcome to contribute, but watch the flame-baiting. -- tk102

[Jediphile]

Since when do people assume that those who think Revan should be held responsible for his crimes want revenge?

 

What many people want is not revenge, but rather, to ensure Revan does not do these Crimes again.

 

There can never be any certainty of that, though. Nor can there for anybody. Everybody has the potential to kill on a large scale, and there really isn't much you can do about that. So Revan could certainly kill again, but given that he just saved the Republic from Malak and the Starforge, I think he's earned a chance to prove he can be a force for good.

 

Saul had to be killed. Sure, he blew up Telos, there is no way to save him for the lives he has lost. Revenge is meaningless. But Saul would end up destroying other planets, heh, he was there at Taris, and blew up Taris under orders from Malak. This had nothing to do with revenge, Saul had to die because if he was spared, he would continue to kill, hurt and plunder. Carth had to kill Saul to save the Republic.

 

The problem with Saul and Malak is quite simply that neither of them show any indication of changing their ways.

 

And Revan was never redeemed in my eyes. This is under debate, and I know you guys disagree with me, but I believe Revan was never redeemed, only his reprogrammed Personality of the Jedi Council. Zeek-El even said it in TSL that Revan was forced to join with the Jedi Council, via that false personality...it was never his choice. And, this false personality will break apart, once those memories come back, and the true personality, that of Revan, will emerge. That personality must be dealt with, and since that personality is not redeemed, he should be treated as a therat, and a threat that have to be controlled.

 

What Zez-Kai Ell says is this: "Suffice to say redemption was not Revan's choice, and I have never believed those of the Council who attempt to console themselves otherwise for the crime they committed."

 

The question is what it means. Does it mean that Revan never changed his ways and had a new personality forced on him against his will, or does it mean that Darth Revan had to be subdued before Revan can return to the light? I don't think Zez-Kai Ell gives us a clear answer on that. And in any event, we must also consider the other source on that matter.

 

Kreia: "Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

 

Now, obviously Kreia is not objective on this matter, and this is actually one of the few times she states quite clearly that this is merely her opinion rather than fact. Still, she did know Revan better than most people, and certainly better than the jedi masters, I think, so her "testimony" would seem relevant to consider. And the picture she draws is quite different from what you suggest. To her the council could not change Revan - they could only subdue the dark side and allow the real Revan to return.

 

Why I point this? Because I don't want anyone to control the debate and say whatever they want without being questioned.

 

Who is not being questioned?

[EnIgmA_XX]

That's a supposition based on your postulate that Revan could have casually decided to turn away from the dark side at any time again. At the very least that claim is very much in dispute, so it seems rather premature to jump straight to next conclusion as if it were an established fact.

 

okay, then we can suspend this argument.

 

i always felt that any person that just wants it enough could be able to turn away from the dark side. okay, you could say that it wasn't them or they werent in control, but when Revan became ds, did Revan become a 100% complete ds monster thing? no, Revan is Revan, even if ds. ds is hard to resist, but are you going to use that as a crutch and an excuse to say that you couldn't turn back? very briefly, i'm gonna link this back to my ages old smoking analogy. people know that it's hard to quit, and sometimes they just think that it's okay to keep on smoking because it's too hard to stop (assume that the person wants to stop, though). is it okay? sure Jediphile, you could say that it's not a big deal, i mean, it's only one life so it's not important, but you're hurting yourself! and you are doing it and if you want to stop, it is in your ability.

 

So you would also condemn John Sheridan on Babylon 5 to death, I take it? He let the shadows butcher the narn, because his side was still defenseless against the enemy at that point in time and would only have revealed what little he had found out at that time and held all the hope for survival for all races in the future. In short, he accepted the sacrifice of countless narn for the hope of being able to fight the shadows in the future. That was his decision.

 

Jack Bauer has certainly killed people on "24" he knew to be innocent or allowed them to die for the sake of furthering his hunt for terrorists. Yet he is constantly hailed as a hero. I have never seen anyone demand the death penalty for his actions.

 

Let's say our agent is following a terrorist to where he has hidden a nuclear bomb. The terrorist hasn't noticed our agent, but he has noticed that a family with little children has recognized him, and now he wants to kill them, so that they won't give him away. Now, does our agent intervene? If he does, then he will never find the bomb, since the terrorist will kill himself before giving its location away. But if the agent doesn't intervene, then the entire family is going to be brutally murdered.

 

This is quite similar to the scenario Revan is put before by the starmap computer on Kashyyyk. He knows a city is doomed because he has decoded enemy transmissions. But if he saves the city, the enemy will know he has found a way to decode their messages. Revan can choose to let the city die and justify it to the computer on the basis that letting them die will give him a tactical advantage that will save more lives in the long run. Taking this choice does not give the character DS points, even though you're effectively sacrificing an entire city full of families.

 

okay, so they killed people to further their good natured goals. you're forgeting something. did they kill people unnecessarily? as far as i know none of these people killed someone for no reason, every innocent life was important. whether Revan killed anyone needlessly is currently in debate between me and ED, and if the JCW was a mistake, then Revan is quite quilty. you see, you're assuming that Revan did 100% the best thing, and nothing better could be done, but we're still debating on that.

 

BTW, for the Babylon 5 example, what show/movie/book/game is that from?

 

Points 2 and 3 do not count for Revan, since you ignore the idea that Revan might have done it to serve the wider goal of the coming war against the true Sith. Given that Revan wanted to save the Republic in some form from the true Sith, it can at least be argued that this is not bad intent or that those people needed to die for the greater good, just as the narn needed to die in Babylon 5.

 

yes it can be argued that way. although i'd think that the ds corruption would have screwed with Revan's intentions a bit. and you tell me why killing people unnecessarily is exusable. if you kill someone and what's worst, killing someone and nothing good coming out of it, how can that be excused?

 

If you're going to be that specific, then point those innocents out. Where and when did Revan kill little children? What were their names?

 

Telos during the JCW. you definitely can't tell me that there were no children on the entire planet when it was bombed. and why do you need their names? isn't knowing that they died enough? if i don't tell you their names does it mean that they never died? they still died!

 

Even children die in wars. It's sad, certainly, but there it is. Or are you going to claim that no child was ever killed during an attack by the rebellion against the empire? It would be a nice fairy-tale, but it is not a very compelling suggestion. Even Mandalorians have children. How many children did the Republic fleet kill during the wars? If you're going to argue this point, then you have to point out the specific children or at least that Revan deliberately went out of his way to kill children and families. I don't think I've ever seen any evidence to even suggest that by anyone in Star Wars, since that is such a terrible area that few writers of fiction will want to go anywhere near it.

 

yes, children die in war. what we're determining is now whether the entire JCW was a mistake or not, which will ultimately influence this part of the debate.

 

Well, I don't like Revan's choice here either, but that's not the point. The question is whether Revan really could have done things differently under the circumstances he faced at the time.

 

in debate.

 

Given that he had fallen to the dark side - and IMHO against his wishes - and saw a larger threat in the true Sith, I cannot condemn Revan for his choice.

 

and we're also debating whether Revan could've turned back or not.

 

 

 

ED: (about anything that has to do with fuel and resources) do you like analogies, ED? okay, does anyone here play Warcraft 3, Starcraft, Rise of Nations, or mostly any other RTS(real time strategy game)? because i'm making my analogy on Warcraft 3. it's gonna be long, so grab some chips before you start reading.

 

okay, so we have the oh so wonderful human race (Revan), allied with the Night Elves (republic), facing off against some really hardcore undead player (sith). now considering how hardcore the undead player is, you'd think that the humans and night elves would have lost already, but for some reason this player seems perfectly content to hoard just about every gold mine and tree cluster and just sit there and watch the other two players while minding his/her own business. now this game has dragged on for some time, but somehow the night elves, STILL haven't even seen the enemy yet, because it never bothers to send scouts out. even still, they are perfectly happy because they have their prprecious gold mine with infinite gold (but can only be harvested at a certain rate), and a clump of trees. considering that the night elves harvest from trees but the trees never get cut down, it will last forever, although again it can only be harvested at a certain rate (these represent republic planets generating resources). so let's say that the NE has 100,000 gold and wood. lastly, the night elves have a rather semi-pathetic defence, consisting of 5 defence towers and 8 units patroling the area, plus about 3 jedi hero units. meanwhile Rev-er, the humans have already gotten all the gold in their mine and have cut down all of their trees. they can still create units (star forge) but basically nothing else. let's also pretend that units also consume resources over time, to keep ED's upkeep idea satisfied. now let's all pretend that we're in the human's place. you have a ridiculous amount of units, let's say, 50, plus you have Revan (level 10 hero, ftw!) and a limited supply of gold and wood, let's say, 500 gold and wood (not a lot in warcraft) that is draining fast because of upkeep. finally, you look over your shoulder and see those cursed prosperous night elves with their infinite resources and rather weak defences and military. finally, you look and you can see far in the distance the undead player massing for an attack. what are you gonna do?

 

okay, everybody, before continuing on, think about a plan that you have to save yourselves and possibly the night elves. everyone have some kind of plan/idea? good.

 

now everyone knows what Revan did. i'm not going to waste my time talking about it as of right now. but i'll tell you what i did. okay, here, the INGENIOUS PLAN! i...Revan...am going to...

 

 

 

...i'm going to ASK FOR SOME RESOURCES! HA! the ingenious plan! ASK. ask the dumb night elves for some gold and wood. are the night elves going to be stingy? of course they could be. but they'll realize that you're someone in need with quite a large army that's ready to serve you, and sure, they'll give you something. and as the undead come charging in, you couldn't be in better shape, with 5 defence towers, 58 units, and enough resources to survive for a while (in which case, when you run out, you can ask for some more, and the NE, being decent people and knowing that you just saved their lives would give you some more.)

so to recap, before the sith attack we have:

 

5 defence towers

58 units

100,500 gold amoungst both allies

Revan (level 10) and 3 other random jedi heroes

 

now, let's see what Revan did. in infinite wisdom, he/she decides to tear the NE to shreds in a desperate hunger for resources, twisted good will, and a bit of ds lust for power. but does the battle last for 30 seconds? no. does it last for 2 minutes? no. it lasts for a few hours. the undead, apparently seeing this feud decides to just sit back and laugh. do the humans win? no, the NE does. somehow, the NE takes down Revan (level 10 hero, ftw!), mind controls him/her, and uses Revan against his/her own troops. so yeah, they win. but what do we have left? well, uh...let's see. the NE defence system is torn to peices, we have, uh, oh, lookie there! one tower was actually left standing! wow! but, it's on fire and looks kinda beat up...oh, look over there, wow, we have actual NE survivors! but of the 8 units before, there are only 2 left, and there's only 1 jedi left. and Revan's army? even more beat up. out of the 50 units before...about maybe 10 units, and they all get taken to prison camp. finally, the humans plundered a large amount of the NE's resources, and the NE had to use a lot to win the war. Revan is still alive, and finally decides that he/she is uber enough (level 10 hero! woot!) to just run of and kill the undead him/herself.

so we have:

 

1 defence tower that's on fire,

2 units and 10 units in some prison somewhere

substantially less than 100,500 gold amoungst both "allies"

Revan, who ran away and 1 jedi out of the 3 before

 

and you know what? i'll be really nice, too. let's say that the humans win and they take minimal casualties, aka Revan's ideal situation. so we have:

 

47 units

somewhat less than 100,500 gold amoungst both "allies"

Revan, and 2 converted jedi

 

now, how exactly is 47 units better than 58? how is having 5 gaurd towers worse than none? how is having less than 100,500 gold better than having exactly 100,500 gold? how is 2 jedi better than 3?

 

someone pls enlighten me and tell me how this is better then the first example.

 

Which will naturally mean the true Sith will attack them, to prevent Revan's forces from being supplied. But since his forces don't control those planets, they will be swiftly conquered (as you have acknowledged earlier) and only help fuel the true Sith's war effort.

 

and why exactly, can Revan not help defend these planets?

 

I see Revan controlling those planets an excellent solution. You'd have a fleet large enough to defeat the true Sith defending them, while rarely having to worry about supplies at the same time.

 

The problem being Revan has no portable means of taking that fuel out of their ships and putting it into his... Combined with what the enemy has already used up, the resources it takes to haul those ships back to the drydocks and the possibility that the enemy will choose to drop a match in their fuel tanks to prevent Revan's forces from looting it, you're not going to have a whole lot left. Hell, even then they might use an incompatible brand of fuel.

 

Evne then it might not still be enough. Revan has an infinite fleet at his disposal, whereas the true Sith likely have a smaller one. They may be able to supply their own military, but not matter how much of it he loots I doubt Revan would ever have enough to supply his own (larger) one.

 

No it doesn't. They're prepared for war, and they're prepared to use up those resources - that's why they even produce them in the case that they run out. Revan's forces would never be able to get the exact amount of resources they need when the enemy is already using them, and prepared to destroy them whenever it's possible they could lose them.

 

On another note, I've found we're drifting a bit far off from whether Revan should've attacked the Republic or not, (thus determining whether he should be punished or not) which is fairly unrelated to all this talk about providing foodstuffs for his troops.

 

that the Republic on its own is incapable of defending itself against the true Sith, it seems only logical to me that Revan should control it, and as an added bonus be able to supply his forces.

 

refer to the analogy.

 

Oh, you would be surprised. Your standard mile-long capital ship's reactor can consume up to 40,000 tons of fuel per second in hyperspace,

 

cite this. and even still, you'd think that they'ed have a fair amount of resources considering that we're talking about planets instead of cities now.

 

and Revan would have what, thousands of those ships? I recall the Star Forge could produce and shape metals, but not fossil fuels. And there's also the matter of providing three square meals a day with thousands of calories for the billions of people working in the military... The Star Forge can't produce foodstuffs either.

 

ask for resources ED. actually, wait. i already know what your counter argument will be, so let me answer it now. do you think, ED, that during war you can expect to have a perfect economy?

 

No, maintaining an army can in the long term can use up far more resources than raising one.

 

yes, but that's talking about pretty long term there. if you build a bridge, how long does it take until the total repair costs equal construction costs? quite a while is my estimate. at any rate, Revan already has a large fleet so that should save a lot of money.

 

That's great, but I'm talking about the pre-KotOR era. (Back when the Jedi were shining bastions of justice that didn't start civil wars)

 

again, if they can't tell some years in the future, how can they tell now? in tsl, they blame what Malak did to Dantoine on the jedi, i think. someone check this for me pls?

 

I think I've gathered the hero part. But holding weight with the people is one thing, influencing politics is another. Movie starts are quite popular and have legions of fanboys/girls, though you never see them trying to pass laws in Congress. To actually do something political you have to be a part of the government, not just popular with the masses.

 

ED, there is a big difference between being popular with the masses, soldiers, generals, and even a few politicians for saving the galaxy, and being popular with the masses for being good at acting.

 

Since you've acknowledged Revan could only save the Republic as a darksider

 

and where did i say this? i quite clearly remember myself saying the the star forge is just one of some other keys for saving the republic. the reason why i'm only talking about this instance is because that's where the disscusion is going, and don't you think for a second that it's for any other reason.

 

Ah, but you did when you were Revan. You might not remember a thing of what you did when you were the Dark Lord but you were with Bastila searching for the Star Forge were you not? That means you are Revan, and are responsible for the crimes he, you, committed. So, lethal injection or electric chair?

 

i'm not really getting you. this seems like a pretty rhetorical question, too.

[mjpb3]

And, this false personality will break apart, once those memories come back, and the true personality, that of Revan, will emerge. That personality must be dealt with, and since that personality is not redeemed, he should be treated as a therat, and a threat that have to be controlled.

But, would the old personality of Revan even be the same as it once was due to having a new personality programmed in?

 

Once Revan was attacked by Malak, then in turn given a new personality by the Jedi, the "old" Revan is not even the same anymore. The new personality would have to have some influence on the old Revan buried in the psyche somewhere. It's like merging two totally unique people and expecting one personality to still be the dominate mind of the new person you'd get from the merging. I doubt new Revan could even ever be the same person that old Revan was anyway...

 

Also, you're just assuming that new Revan would simply pick up where old Revan left off. New Revan is a whole new person by all accounts, so to assume that new Revan and old Revan are still one in the same is a big misconception. Old Revan is still in new Revan somewhere, yes, but new Revan is a whole new personality who would have some say so about his/her actions, whether old Revan is ever remembered entirely or not. That's why I completely disagree with any form of execution. You'd be killing a completely different person than the one you'd want executed in the first place.

 

Revan, to me, is like a person who suffers from multiple personalities--in this case two different personalities: Revan 1 (old Revan) and Revan 2 (new Revan). Let's say, for simplicity's sake, Revan 1 commits murder for whatever reasons. Should Revan 2 be held responsible and be sentenced to death for the murder Revan 1 committed?

[GOD Radu]

Isn't this this thread question kind of dumb?

 

First, how can you execute a man if doesn't remember what he did, that ain't fair.

Second, if he had his memories, he's the ~snipped~ Dark Lord of The Sith, I don't think some one could hold him in jail just like that.

Third, The Republic is weak, Revan should heaved wiped it from the face of the Universe, ok maybe not but still...

 

Maybe The Republic knew that there was more ot Revan than Malaks psychopathic mass-mudering urges, at least Revan would destroy a planet for a person.

 

And yes there is no canon there is only Revan.

[Jediphile]

i always felt that any person that just wants it enough could be able to turn away from the dark side. okay, you could say that it wasn't them or they werent in control, but when Revan became ds, did Revan become a 100% complete ds monster thing? no, Revan is Revan, even if ds. ds is hard to resist, but are you going to use that as a crutch and an excuse to say that you couldn't turn back? very briefly, i'm gonna link this back to my ages old smoking analogy. people know that it's hard to quit, and sometimes they just think that it's okay to keep on smoking because it's too hard to stop (assume that the person wants to stop, though). is it okay? sure Jediphile, you could say that it's not a big deal, i mean, it's only one life so it's not important, but you're hurting yourself! and you are doing it and if you want to stop, it is in your ability.

 

There is a big difference between what you choose to do to change only a personal matter in your own life and what you do overtly that will effect other people and how you will interact with them. If Revan had suddenly become all noble, it would have been seen as weakness among the Sith, and Malak or someone else would have killed him, because that's what the Sith do.

 

And while you seem to think that smoking is just something you can casually stop doing, it's not quite as easy as you say. I've never smoked or taken drugs, but I know people who have tried it. Drugs are supposedly particularly difficult to get rid of. I remember someone on another forum I used to frequent who insisted that while it might be possible to stop taking a drug, the addiction itself will never go away. It's the same principle for members of the AA - even if it's been years since they stopped, they can't just casually take a drink every so often, because it's not just a question of drinking as much as constantly acknowledging and fighting their problem.

 

And that's just concerning af personal vice. For a fallen jedi, the urge is far stronger because the dark side actively lures you. Like the One Ring in LOTR, it is impossible to resist, as Frodo learned. This is what Belaya calls "the eternal struggle of the jedi" in KotOR, and everything I've ever seen, read or heard in Star Wars suggests that resisting the dark side is impossible - you can only shed yourself of it by being confronted with facts that shock you into clarity, by being forced acknowledge the error of your ways. This is true for Vader, Ulic, Bastila, Atris, Luke Skywalker, or any other redeemed jedi I've ever heard of. Even Traya "transcends" beyond the lure of the dark side by being thrown out by the Sith and stripped of her powers and so forced to reexamine her beliefs. There is no evidence that I've ever seen to suggest that what you suggest Revan should have done is possible in any way. Nor have you denied that or presented evidence to the contrary, EnIgmA_XX.

 

 

okay, so they killed people to further their good natured goals. you're forgeting something. did they kill people unnecessarily? as far as i know none of these people killed someone for no reason, every innocent life was important. whether Revan killed anyone needlessly is currently in debate between me and ED, and if the JCW was a mistake, then Revan is quite quilty. you see, you're assuming that Revan did 100% the best thing, and nothing better could be done, but we're still debating on that.

 

Unlike you, EnIgmA_XX, I don't deal in absolutes.

 

BTW, for the Babylon 5 example, what show/movie/book/game is that from?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Shadow_of_Z%27ha%27dum

 

And more to the point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Coventry#Bombing_during_the_Blitz

 

yes it can be argued that way. although i'd think that the ds corruption would have screwed with Revan's intentions a bit. and you tell me why killing people unnecessarily is exusable.

 

I haven't said that. If you claim so, then you're preceeding on a fact that is not in evidence. Of course it's not excusable to kill unnecessarily. The point is that we can't know if it was necessary or not, or even if more people were killed than necessary due to unfortunate circumstances, neither of which it is fair to blame Revan for. Just because Revan was dark lord does not make him a god who could have saved or condemned every little life - he does not have quite that much control.

 

Telos during the JCW. you definitely can't tell me that there were no children on the entire planet when it was bombed. and why do you need their names? isn't knowing that they died enough? if i don't tell you their names does it mean that they never died? they still died!

 

If you can't name any, then you can't claim that any died. Sorry, but to me it's as if you're arguing from a basis of pathos now, as in "well, Revan killed chilred - he must be a demon!" But you have no evidence of that, and even if it did happen, it is what happens in war. How many innocent children have the Rebellion killed in their attacks on the Empire? You can't tell me that it never happened...

 

Turning to pathos in your attempt to pursuade me of your point will not take us anywhere positive, since I do not agree that invoking emotions is a legitimate basis to discuss from. It distances us from an objective appraisal of the topic, I think. That is also why you haven't heard me argue that the jedi council are heartless monsters, because they condemned countless children on the outer rim to horrible deaths by refusing to fight the Mandalorians. Or are you going to tell me that it did not happen?

 

yes, children die in war. what we're determining is now whether the entire JCW was a mistake or not, which will ultimately influence this part of the debate.

 

So it's okay for the Republic fleet to kill children, but not for Revan's...

 

And, of course, if the Republic is so noble that it will never attack a ship or a place where innocent children might be harmed, then - if I were Revan or some other dark lord - I would make certain to have families with innocent children on every ship and in every place of strategic importance to nullify the potential of an enemy attack. Sorry, but I don't think that holds water. Besides, this is just what the Mandalorians accuse the Republic of - they see them as cowards for placing their areas of strategic importance next to civilians, and so the Mandalorians argue that it's the Republic's own fault if it's gets a bloody nose by taking civilian casualties. Who's right? Sure, you can call the Mandalorians butchers, but surely the Republic did have the option of separating targets of strategic importance from the civilian population, so who's really at fault? Nope, it doesn't add up to put the blame solely on one side.

 

 

But, would the old personality of Revan even be the same as it once was due to having a new personality programmed in?

 

Once Revan was attacked by Malak, then in turn given a new personality by the Jedi, the "old" Revan is not even the same anymore. The new personality would have to have some influence on the old Revan buried in the psyche somewhere. It's like merging two totally unique people and expecting one personality to still be the dominate mind of the new person you'd get from the merging. I doubt new Revan could even ever be the same person that old Revan was anyway...

 

We would say that we know he can on the basis of the DS ending, which is all about Darth Revan RETURNING, not being reborn. If Revan chooses the DS at the end of the game, then he simply returns to who he was before the jedi captured him. There are some differences - he's a big stronger (according to Malak) and doesn't have all his memories (of the true Sith, for example) - but he's basically the same person again.

 

Also, you're just assuming that new Revan would simply pick up where old Revan left off. New Revan is a whole new person by all accounts, so to assume that new Revan and old Revan are still one in the same is a big misconception. Old Revan is still in new Revan somewhere, yes, but new Revan is a whole new personality who would have some say so about his/her actions, whether old Revan is ever remembered entirely or not. That's why I completely disagree with any form of execution. You'd be killing a completely different person than the one you'd want executed in the first place.

 

I don't quite agree. Remember that the new persona that was imposed on Revan was to be loyal to the republic, yet Revan has the option to refuse that at the end of the game. And in any event, neo-Revan clearly does things that the council never intended. He was just to be a lowly soldier in the Republic because they wouldn't kill him. When he turns out to have emerging potential for the force, the masters seem shocked by it. Clearly they never intended that. The seem only reluctantly - and against the express refusal by Vrook - to allow him training in the jedi ways. They neither knew nor intended that they could use him to find the starmaps, and only learn of that option through Bastila's shared visions with Revan. That does seem like flashes of the old Revan exerting itself, as does the vision of Bastila's fight with Revan, when Malak betrayed him.

 

I agree more with Kreia - the old, dark Darth Revan has been stripped away, and so the real and true Revan is free to grow outside the influence of the dark side. In that sense, the player decides who Revan - not <Fullname> - really is. There is no <Fullname> - it's just the uncorrupted Revan growing back.

[SilentScope001]

There can never be any certainty of that, though. Nor can there for anybody. Everybody has the potential to kill on a large scale, and there really isn't much you can do about that. So Revan could certainly kill again, but given that he just saved the Republic from Malak and the Starforge, I think he's earned a chance to prove he can be a force for good.

 

But that was never Revan, it was <FullName> who done that...

 

The problem with Saul and Malak is quite simply that neither of them show any indication of changing their ways.

 

Neither did Revan, and I think that Revan personality will overwhealm <FullName> if he is not stopped...

 

Now, obviously Kreia is not objective on this matter, and this is actually one of the few times she states quite clearly that this is merely her opinion rather than fact. Still, she did know Revan better than most people, and certainly better than the jedi masters, I think, so her "testimony" would seem relevant to consider. And the picture she draws is quite different from what you suggest. To her the council could not change Revan - they could only subdue the dark side and allow the real Revan to return.

 

One of the few times I would disagree with Kreia then, I suppose. Kreia is a Revan fangirl after all...but I do understand that the theory has some merit.

 

I side with Zek-Ell that Revan was indeed never redeemed, and that what they did was a "crime". <FullName> was redeemed, but Revan remained. How else could <FullName> remember what Revan experienced? How else does <FullName> knows about the Unknown Regions threat? That memory shows that Revan's personality remains relatively intact, and I doubt <FullName> could contain it. <FullName> was compelled anyway to head to the Unknown Regions...regardless of alignment...is that Revan's doing? (Remember, you have no control over if <FullName> goes to the Unknown Regions. None at all. I believe that <FullName>'s personality was controlled by the Player actually...and that once the game ends, Revan's personality begins to take hold.)

 

Who is not being questioned?

 

You. You say that Revan had to fall to save the Republic, and people disagree. You say Revan redeemed himself, people disagree. The debate still continues...

 

/shrugs.