"Reproduction" in games

[Achilles]

*shrugs*

 

I just wait till my kids are asleep and use a really good pair of headphones. It seems that I don't need to other people cater to me in order to make what I consider to be responsible decisions. I'm perfectly willing to accept the possibility that I am in the minority on this one. Thanks for reading.

[mimartin]

Basically I'm saying give parents another option. This way the company gets more money rather than parents refusing to buy games. Adding a content filter can't cost more than the lost revenue.

You’ve already listed the solution in your comments. If you want filters, do not buy the games. The developers and the distributors will get the message if people refuse to purchase their product.

 

Personally, I do not see the problem. The games have ratings, the games list content, if parents do not want the content then they should not purchase the game. It is just like purchasing movies or having some cable networks in your home. If parents do not want their children playing or watching these games then it should be up to the parents to keep them away from the children’s hand and eyes. It is not these companies’ job or responsibility to raise our children. If parents find it offensive, then they should make a different purchase.

[John Galt]

You’ve already listed the solution in your comments. If you want filters, do not buy the games. The developers and the distributors will get the message if people refuse to purchase their product.

 

Personally, I do not see the problem. The games have ratings, the games list content, if parents do not want the content then they should not purchase the game. It is just like purchasing movies or having some cable networks in your home. If parents do not want their children playing or watching these games then it should be up to the parents to keep them away from the children’s hand and eyes. It is not these companies’ job or responsibility to raise our children. If parents find it offensive, then they should make a different purchase.

 

There is no part of that post that I disagree with.

[Tommycat]

Meh, my TV has content filtering. My DVD player has ratings blocking. I have filtering on my kids computers.

 

I'm not asking them to raise my kids, I can mess that up enough myself. All I'm asking for is the ability to choose how much content the game would show them should they get ahold of a game I bought for myself.

 

For me though this is almost a non-issue, because my kids are getting old enough, but I'm not so selfish as to only think of myself on this.

[Jae Onasi]

@Jae: Fair enough. So how does your children potentially seeing a nude woman on computer screen compare to the Darth Sion on Korriban fight that I used as an example earlier? Just as worrisome? Not nearly as worrisome? Much more worrisome? Does your moral indignation regarding the lack of filters extend as far as violence in games such as KotOR II:TSL?

 

The thread's about sex in games, not violence. How I feel about violence in games is irrelevant to how I feel about sex in games. They're different issues.

 

@mimartin--where can I find a rated T version of VtMB?

[Achilles]

Well then you should have said so when I originally broached the issue in post #4 instead of waiting until you decided not to answer after post #23.

 

 

 

She addressed it in post #9.

 

And enough with the baiting comments.

 

~9

[Achilles]

Whether there's violence in the game or not is irrelevant to whether there's sex in the game.

I think it's quite relevant. In post #5 you alluded that it was an issue of appropriateness. I cannot understand how sexual content in a game can be labeled "inappropriate" without applying a similar standard for violence. You stated that you "filter" for "overt" violence and I am simply trying to get a feel for what that means.

 

I think the question regarding VV vs. Darth Sion is a fair one and I am very curious as to why there is so much protest behind offering an answer. It may be that your argument has a very sound justification that participants in this thread can benefit from, however we won't know if you don't answer. I hope you'll take this to heart and reconsider.

[jonathan7]

I think it was probably my fault for going off topic (as I so often do) that put them (sex and violence) in a relationship.

[Jae Onasi]

I think it was probably my fault for going off topic (as I so often do) that put them (sex and violence) in a relationship.

 

Others accomplished that all by themselves.

 

Achilles, you're raising a strawman by equating violence with sex in games. They're not the same. That's why I'm not addressing it--I'd rather not bifurcate onto the violence in games subject.

[Darth InSidious]

I think a bigger issue is that you would have to be a pretty sad case if you needed sex in a computer game...

 

...I would also like to point out that this is hardly a new phenomenon. There is, sadly, the genre known as "rape 'em up" out there....

[Web Rider]

Others accomplished that all by themselves.

 

Achilles, you're raising a strawman by equating violence with sex in games. They're not the same. That's why I'm not addressing it--I'd rather not bifurcate onto the violence in games subject.

But they're not entirely separate either. They're the two big issues today, and two big issues that have lasted for millennia, I don't know what kind of answer Achilles is looking for, but you have already touched on it when you stated that games you play have violent content filters.

 

I think a quick look at games would tell us that the more violent a game is, the less, discrete, the sex scenes becomes.

[Emperor Devon]

Bah, why is it a given that sexuality/violence=bad?

 

In one module I played for Neverwinter Nights, the game starts with your (female) character getting raped by a street thug after her family is butchered by the people he rescues her from. Violence against women is a common theme in it, and practically half the characters in the module are out to grab at your PC's skirt (well... chainmail armor... skirts don't give a very high AC bonus. But either way it's the side effects of 14+ Charisma). There's even an option to become a whore, but you don't get any experience points or earn much gold (the most you can get is 30 per sailor, and even that takes a lot of persuading) so I didn't bother with it. Your character can even get pregnant by having a fling with the rapist later, (apparently there's a miscarriage though) but I chose to opt for more experience points by running a rapier through his brain. C'mon c'mon magic level 20!

 

Point in case, it can add atmosphere. Nothing illustrates the bloody postwar aftermath of a conquered medieval city like showing women getting raped and mass state-sanctioned killings. The unsubtle use of profanity (you hear f***, c***, and s***every other sentence) and constant filthy jokes/references also added a lot of atmosphere. The module tried to be filthy and gritty and it succeeded by being exactly that; filthy and gritty. I loved every minute of it.

 

From my general experience with games, romances tend to be optional things. If you don't want to see anything that could be sexual, don't initiate the romantic dialogue. If the game tries to force that sort of thing on you and you don't like it... well, isn't that a fair sign the game obviously isn't for you? And honestly, it's just a pair of ta-tas. Really, grow up. 45% of the world's population has them even if they're usually covered.

 

Bah. I tire of political correctness and censorship. We need more games with overt filthiness and violence like that A Dance With Rogues module for NWN. I'd buy 'em.

 

(PS: It's against forum rules to post links to something so filthy, but PM if you want a link to the NWN module. It's a lot of fun. And yes, it has an actual plot and characters that mesh with all the violence.)

[Darth InSidious]

medieval city

You'd know, would you?

 

[mimartin]

Meh, my TV has content filtering. My DVD player has ratings blocking. I have filtering on my kids computers. [/Quote] Oh and how successful are these filters? The ones on my TV, Satellite Box and DVD player are 4 to 6 digits. My grandfather had a padlock on the cabinet in his shop where he kept the Playboys when I was a child. The combination was 12-07-41, the reason he join the military. My eleven year old cousin told me the code for his parents’ television when the rating blocker was preventing me from watching an unrated sports program. Children are a lot smarter and more observant than their parents give them credit for. The only safe and fool proof way to keep the children from playing or seeing the material is not to purchase it in the first place.

 

For me though this is almost a non-issue, because my kids are getting old enough, but I'm not so selfish as to only think of myself on this.

So it is a selfless act to ask non-parents to share in the increase cost of adding content filters?

@mimartin--where can I find a rated T version of VtMB?

I don’t believe that is the demographic this game was developed for. From the description, I believe this is a game I’d choice not to play as I might find some of it offensive. So I will now use my old fashion, manual, foolproof, cost efficient content filter and refuse to purchase this product.

[SilentScope001]

1) To be honest, I would likely pay more for a content filter. I mean, not like $500 more, but a small fee increase, I'll live with that.

 

2) Judging from the fact that some people are confused about reproduction including the birth of babies, I was using it as a euphisum for SEX. Okay? You like sex in games, okay, fine. But what about me?

 

3) Yes, I don't buy games that have sex...or if I buy a game that has sex, I go and avoid that sex content. That being said, I would rather have a content filter, so that I can avoid the parts I hate (sex), and head onto the good stuff, you know, playing the game.

 

4) Many of us are fine with violence, because, let be honest, most games do in fact deal with violence (I don't like gore, but again, another topic). So, let move on to the topic of reproduction on games...please?

 

5) Yes, I am struggling against market forces. That doesn't mean it's wrong to vent.

[Lance Monance]

Well I think it is pretty obvious that filters and options to adjust just about everything would be perfect. Everyone could change the game to whatever suits that person best.

 

Ask the industry why it isn't done. If you would like developers to include such options, vote with your wallet next time they release a game that does not satisfy you. If a significant part of the target audience feels the same way, you'll likely see a change. If not, you have 3 options:

1.) Dont purchase the game

2.) Avoid content you don't like while playing the game

3.) Use mods to adjust the game to your liking

 

On a side note, if games are made for adults only, any content filters (censorship) should be turned off by default. After all the game is targeted at adults.

[Web Rider]

1) To be honest, I would likely pay more for a content filter. I mean, not like $500 more, but a small fee increase, I'll live with that.

With your average game pushing the $60 mark, if they decide to include one in a game and raise the price because of it, I'll be LESS likly to buy the game.

 

2) Judging from the fact that some people are confused about reproduction including the birth of babies, I was using it as a euphisum for SEX. Okay? You like sex in games, okay, fine. But what about me?

From our various debates in other threads and my high-school bio class, I seem to recall that sex leads to baby production. Personally, I think sex without that possibility is worse than sex with(in terms of game quality). It makes sex more hollow IMO.

 

4) Many of us are fine with violence, because, let be honest, most games do in fact deal with violence (I don't like gore, but again, another topic). So, let move on to the topic of reproduction on games...please?

the word you are searching for, is "copulation", the act of f-ing one another. "reproduction" is the act of making babies. The latter utilizes the former to work of course. But sex without reproduction is copulation.

 

5) Yes, I am struggling against market forces. That doesn't mean it's wrong to vent.

No, but you're more likly to get agreement with saying that "tasteless sex scenes are bad" than "all sex=evil, ban ban!"

[mimartin]

Question: Most filters currently in use are included by the manufacture of the system not the product itself. (Example: the DVD does not have the filter on it, but the DVD player does have the filter built into it). This would work for console games as Xbox 360 or PS3 could be built to include a filter. How would this work with a computer? Are you all advocating that the filter be built into the game itself? Then why not require DVDs, Television programs, Music CDs… to do the same? You know some bad person (such as myself) may not activate the filter on their TV or DVD player and may actually be subject to the offensive material they just purchased knowingly.

 

Oh, and you don’t want to get me started with Art Galleries. We must apply filters to all nude artworks.

 

Does the artist own intention have any baring here?

 

If I design a game that includes sex as a plot device should I have some say into if the scene can be skipped or not. If as a writer, I feel it is important to show the emotions between the PC and NPC then why would I allow it to be skipped? Some games actually attempt to tell a story after all. Skipping a chapter of a book is usually not the best way to enjoy or understand the authors work, could it possibly be the same with games.

No, but you're more likely to get agreement with saying that "tasteless sex scenes are bad" than "all sex=evil, ban ban!"

I would agree with this, and if a game has tasteless, useless sex scenes only there to sell the game, then I will not purchase that game. I would still be against saying “Tasteless Sex = Ban, Ban.” As if the market place wants that type of game then the companies would be fools not to produce that type of games.

[Web Rider]

Question: Most filters currently in use are included by the manufacture of the system not the product itself. (Example: the DVD does not have the filter on it, but the DVD player does have the filter built into it). This would work for console games as Xbox 360 or PS3 could be built to include a filter. How would this work with a computer? Are you all advocating that the filter be built into the game itself? Then why not require DVDs, Television programs, Music CDs… to do the same? You know some bad person (such as myself) may not activate the filter on their TV or DVD player and may actually be subject to the offensive material they just purchased knowingly.

Actually, this depends on the filter. Console filters and TV filters simply read the rating programmed into the disc. Game filters often have very particular files that are blocked, cut, or otherwise prevented from being shown when they normally would be.

 

A DVD basicaly tells the player it's rated "R" and the player says "R movies require permission." While games say: "you can play low blood, no blood, or high blood." And the blood graphics simply aren't shown. Or in the case of VV, a different skin is applied with her in a corset instead of nude. Much like many modders do for KOTOR right here.

 

If I design a game that includes sex as a plot device should I have some say into if the scene can be skipped or not. If as a writer, I feel it is important to show the emotions between the PC and NPC then why would I allow it to be skipped? Some games actually attempt to tell a story after all. Skipping a chapter of a book is usually not the best way to enjoy or understand the authors work, could it possibly be the same with games.

I tend to agree that most sex scenes in most movies are relevent to the plot, and usually they are artisticly done. And I agree that skipping, or blacking them out cheapens things. But this just shows there's different opinions on the subject.

 

I would agree with this, and if a game has tasteless, useless sex scenes only there to sell the game, then I will not purchase that game. I would still be against saying “Tasteless Sex = Ban, Ban.” As if the market place wants that type of game then the companies would be fools not to produce that type of games.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that tasteless sex is important too. Lets be honest here, the sex the average person has is nothing like the pretty painted sex we see on TV and in movies. I think most people get upset over tasteless sex because it hits too close to home.

 

But I think it provides an important point that not all sex is pretty, and that, there are other kinds of sex than missionary man on top. In it's own way, tasteless sex is artistic too because of the naturalness of it. I think there are of course, times when it's not necessary(trinity-neo scene), but I think that's mostly a matter of opinion. The scene still worked for the movie, but I don't think they needed it to be quite as big as it was.

[PoiuyWired]

I think the problem seems to be "Unexpacted Sex Scenes"

 

To be fair though, if you are buying a game like Mass Effect, Assassain's Creed, etc... you are expacting violence. So yelling |OMFG I am shooting someone with a gun" is just stupid. You know what you are getting into when you buy it if you have any braincells at all.

 

Now, here comes MY POINT. If you are buying a game like Leisure Suit Larry, or any of the Hentai games and what not, you KNOW you are going to get quite some Reproduction Scenes, and more. So in this case yelling "OMFG boobies" would be just as stupid.

 

The problem lies in the sexual content shows up unexpactedly without warning. To make a weird example... what if half way thru Mario Brothers you get a scene where Peach gets it on with Bowser... That would be quite annoying indeed, storyline or not. And things can go both ways. You don't expact girls get it on with you while playing halflife, and you don't expact to see pieces of human meat smearing across the gaming enviroment with things wiggling and screaming while playing Leisure Suit Larry.

 

And well, while some games like GTA and what not would give you the impression that sexual and violence content would be included, sometimes the content just creeps in when it is unexpacted. I myself don't mind such happenings, preety much seen it all and what not, but I know that some people would be utterly annoyed by it. Guess its like eating chocolate icecream while suddenly seeing 2girls1cup on the screen or something like that.

 

Could you please provide me with an example of a game that has high sex/low violence content (other than Leisure Suit Larry), so that I might have context for your argument?

 

There are actually quite alot of it... esp those japanese Hentai games. 0.o

[SilentScope001]

To be fair though, if you are buying a game like Mass Effect, Assassain's Creed, etc... you are expacting violence. So yelling |OMFG I am shooting someone with a gun" is just stupid. You know what you are getting into when you buy it if you have any braincells at all.

 

Now, here comes MY POINT. If you are buying a game like Leisure Suit Larry, or any of the Hentai games and what not, you KNOW you are going to get quite some Reproduction Scenes, and more. So in this case yelling "OMFG boobies" would be just as stupid.

 

The problem lies in the sexual content shows up unexpactedly without warning.

 

Make sense. I won't get LSL regardless, and I won't advocate for filters for that. Take sex out of that game, and you ruin it totally.

 

But, I do dislike unexpected sex scenes in games like in ME (Mass Effect) or in Mario.

 

Put it this way. In LSL, sex is important. In games that have an obligatory sex scene, why is it important? Wouldn't a "Come Hither" stare be enough?

 

I tend to agree that most sex scenes in most movies are relevent to the plot, and usually they are artisticly done. And I agree that skipping, or blacking them out cheapens things. But this just shows there's different opinions on the subject.

 

Sex is usually about having pleasure, if a person states, "Let go and sleep with each other", you can assume they are having pleasure, so it doesn't add anything to the story at all. There is the possiblity of rape being important, but you don't need to describe it graphically again, you can assume that one is having pleasure (the rapist), and the other person is feeling pain (the one being raped). No need to have that as well.

[mimartin]

Or in the case of VV, a different skin is applied with her in a corset instead of nude. Much like many modders do for KOTOR right here.

So if the kid knows a little about being a modder, then the filter becomes useless again? There is no, foolproof way around this except possibly not purchasing the game if you find it offensive. Even then parents are at a disadvantage if the parents’ of the kid next door is not as vigilant as they are.

[Web Rider]

Sex is usually about having pleasure, if a person states, "Let go and sleep with each other", you can assume they are having pleasure, so it doesn't add anything to the story at all. There is the possiblity of rape being important, but you don't need to describe it graphically again, you can assume that one is having pleasure (the rapist), and the other person is feeling pain (the one being raped). No need to have that as well.

 

No, and as an artist I object to your relegating sex to wonton pleasure seeking. Take for example, a virgin, perhaps the person they are currently in love with is more experienced than them. For the virgin, this first sex is an important moment, not some wanton moment of pleasure seeking. I agree that we don't need explicit depictions as one would find in a porno movie, and that's why I think sex can be very tastefully done.

 

Or for example, two people are in love, one has aids, it's a BIG deal for the other to decide to sleep with them, and yes, I don't need to see or hear about where they stuck it in and how hard, but showing a sexual act(in a movie that told you before hand it had explicit scenes) as a devotion of love and not just wanton pleasure seeking is VERY important to humanity as a whole.

 

I don't need to know what somebody did to their wife last night, but people need to see and understand what sex is about before even daring to engage in it. Sheltering your children from sex is rather unhealthy for them, and it makes them more curious to it when they finally are exposed, and makes them more likly to take risks.

 

Most rape isn't about pleasure, it's about control, power. The rapist may get no real pleasure from the act of sex, but the act of control is what really gives them pleasure. And I have a feeling most people who've been raped would be pretty pissed to hear you devolve rape into a matter of pleasure and pain. It's so much more complicated than that, and to understand it, you can't simplify it into two words.

 

So if the kid knows a little about being a modder, then the filter becomes useless again? There is no, foolproof way around this except possibly not purchasing the game if you find it offensive. Even then parents are at a disadvantage if the parents’ of the kid next door is not as vigilant as they are.

Possibly, but if a kid is very computer knowledgeable then the filter was useless to begin with. My parents kept a watchful eye on me every moment I was on the computer around the ages of 9-13, when I was first getting into computer stuff. It's not hard for parents to learn, get involved with their kids, and make sure they're not doing something they deem inappropriate.

 

There's this weird assumption among parents these days that kids are going to be protected by this magical faceless orginization. I don't get it. There are however some things a kid must learn for themselves, and I think that's part of the growing-up process and it's very healthy, and that a parent should be a helping hand to that learning process, not an all-enclosing bubble. Which IMO, is unhealthy.

 

EDIT: as for the parents of the kid next door, that IS part of parenting as well. Knowing your limits of what you can and cannot control. If you feel that the friend next door has lax parents, have the friend over to your place where you have control over the possible situations. Your kids WILL be exposed to things you don't approve of, it's impossible to have it any other way(unless you approve of everything!), it's simply a matter of controling what you can, and dealing with situations as they come.

[mimartin]

But, I do dislike unexpected sex scenes in games like in ME (Mass Effect) or in Mario.

How was the sex scene in Mass Effect unexpected? It was rated M (mature) – Blood, Partial Nudity, Sexual Themes. Told me that you could expect sex in the game since it was BioWare doing the game I expected it to be tastefully done and I was not disappointed. It was very well done, without nudity (if you don’t count a fake butt). You also had a filter up until the last click of the button to refuse the scene. What is the use of putting on a filter if people don’t use it?

[SilentScope001]

No, and as an artist I object to your relegating sex to wonton pleasure seeking. Take for example, a virgin, perhaps the person they are currently in love with is more experienced than them. For the virgin, this first sex is an important moment, not some wanton moment of pleasure seeking. I agree that we don't need explicit depictions as one would find in a porno movie, and that's why I think sex can be very tastefully done.

 

And as a person who's reading it, uh, I still see it as a moment of pleasure seeking for the virign. That's what Sex is all about. If Sex wasn't about pleasure, then why in the world would people do it? If it was painful, do you think people would engage in it to procreate the species? Nature made sex pleasurable so that we are encouraged to do it, that's not a lie at all.

 

Sex isn't to be honored, deified, and said to be a great thing, it isn't that important at all for some people, and in fact, rather disguisting to some people. And it is for these 'some people', that we sorta start this topic. Have artistic freedom all you want, but we always got the right to not see it at well, or at least request you to allow us not to see it, when reading the rest of your work (I may like your awesome story about nuclear annihlation and fighting against a powerful enemy, but I don't need to see sex in the middle of it, and I personally don't see Sex as so important to your main point: That Good Wins).

 

...Please?

 

How was the sex scene in Mass Effect unexpected?

 

It was unexpected because I didn't know Mass Effect HAD a sex scene until it was plastered all over the news about Singapore banning it (all the time, I thought any romance would just be 'off-screen'). Had I bought the game without that importnat news article, and not seen Yazthee's review, I would have found the sex scene unexpected. And I've seen "partial nudity" and "sexual themes" to be redefined a lot (I own GTA III and GTA: Vice City, which had partial nudity be some girl dancing sexually, and sexual themes being a prositutue who does sex off-screen), so I wouldn't have known that actual Sex was in the game.

 

Not all people pay attention to the game's hype, you know?