The alignment system - Good/Evil and Law/Chaos?

[RedHawke]

Mr Chee's comment explicitly states the contrary. Neither ending of K2 can be considered canon at this point.

If they fixed a gender they have also fixed an ending... it is part of the process. That post smecks of placating the masses some by being ambiguous, it really isn't concrete.

 

Especially for K1. The LS ending is the 'canon' one (evidence is clear in the SW Databanks writeup on Malak);

Revan, a Jedi captive, was stripped of all memories of a Sith past, and was turned into an agent of the Republic. Jedi observers closely watched Revan as the "reformed" Sith traced the path blazed during the initial search for the Star Forge. In this manner, agents of the Republic were able to find the station and confront Malak.

 

This confrontation erupted into a massive battle as Republic fleet forces arrived to attack the Star Forge. Endless streams of ships poured forth from the Star Forge, striking against the amassed warships of the Republic. The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

Now TSL's ending was left more similar to assist in making a sequel... as it is not an easy thing to pull off following a game with such a distinctive set of endings that K1 had, as Obsidian found out, hence TSL was constructed the way it was.

 

because the game isn't about good vs evil.

Darth Nihilus, devourer of worlds, is a great evil and must be stopped... check!

Darth Sion serves Kreia and is a corrupting influence on the Force with his immortality and is destroyed... check!

Darth Traya/Kreia, hates the Force and wishes it destroyed and uses the Exile to become the 'tool' of its destruction, Kreia is defeated... check!

 

Sounds like "evil" to me.

 

The Exile, no matter what path actually chosen, destroys these evils... hence 'good' wins the day and the galaxy continues on.

 

While I admit the story is more subtle than K1's was, it is still a good vs. evil story.

 

Can you please point out the exact specifics of the not good and evil story points (the main story only, remember)?

[Totenkopf]

But if evil destroys evil for clearly selfish reasons, is that really "good"? Especially when you can't say what the intentions of a DS Exile will end up being anyway.

 

note: I'm NOT arguing GvE or LvC here.

[Gurges-Ahter]

Before and after these discussions I don't see any way to get around TSL being about good and evil, like all Star Wars stories seem to be.

 

Even if you say it's about "making a choice", that choice is about being good or evil.

[JCarter426]

The the choice doesn't matter, because it ends the same either way because--

 

I give up.

[SilentScope001]

The the choice doesn't matter

 

The Choice does matter. Remember, if the Exile turns DS, you get the cutscene: "Ascending the Dark Throne", implying, of course, the Exile takes over the Sith Order.

 

It is a story about Good Versus Evil, yes, it has to be. But, that doesn't mean a person can be an moral relativist. They can. They'll just be shunned.

[RedHawke]

But if evil destroys evil for clearly selfish reasons, is that really "good"? Especially when you can't say what the intentions of a DS Exile will end up being anyway.

In the case of TSL yes it is, see 'good' is served either way becuse the destruction of the 3 Sith Lords allows for the continued existance of the galaxy at large. While the Exile's DS intentions might be for ill as well, it is a far lesser ill than say devouring whole planets or the further corruption of the force by the existance of the current Sith Lords.

 

Either way the galaxy continues on... life is served. 'Good' wins the day... even though with a DS Exile it might only be a pyrrhic victory for 'good'.

[TKA-001]

Doesn't Traya at the end of the game tell the player (if dark-sided) that he or she just mucked up all of the planets and will cause them to become like Malachor or something?

[Gavroche]

Nope. What Traya says is that

1/ Telos will become one big and influent technological center thanks to Czerka. The only drawback is that Telosians will still be haunted by Karath's slaughter.

2/ Hutts and the Exchange will fight for Nar Shaddaa's control as the latter starts to get more and more power (thanks to the Exile). It will become even worse for Refugees.

3/ Onderon will keep its unity and culture from separating from the Republic, unlike the LS ending where Talia ends destroying completly the planet's customs.

4/ Dantooine will become a mercenaries and smugglers planet. Nobody will remember that Jedi were once there.

 

I guess that except for Dantooine and Nar Shaddaa, planets' fate are fairly good.

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Well, from a certain point of view, of course... ^^

[JediMasterJambi]

I'm not to sure what Law/Chaos situation means, but I think it could be applicable.

 

The Jedi have the job of attempting to bring balance to the force, while Sith try to cause chaos to it.

Nhil could have definatley been considered chaotic in the fact that he would have basically killed everything. (Sith aka Evil included)

[luckyariot]

Doesn't Traya at the end of the game tell the player (if dark-sided) that he or she just mucked up all of the planets and will cause them to become like Malachor or something?

I think it was more on the lines of the echos from all the death and darkness surrounding Malachor V to eventually spread across the galaxy and smother lives connected to the force (basically everyone but the Exile), killing most of them in the process. That's what I remember anyway.

She was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars, was she not? And even a DS Exile is heroic during the final battle at Telos.

Really? I think I missed something, but the Exile's actions during the Mandalorian Wars (mostly at the final battle) were at least decently contraversal and not always heroic. And the DS Exile was heroic? If this is about Nihilus's death, I don't know if that was heroism or rather making sure the guy doesn't consume everything and everyone in the galaxy. An empty galaxy is useful to no one, so stopping Nihilus being heroic... I guess its subjective to debate for DS Exile.

I agree with that statement; that the Exile's alignment does not affect the outcome of the game.

*sigh* Yes, sadly the more visible effect of DS/LS, especially on your party is badly butchered by cuts. Rub salt in the gaping wound why don't ya? But, originally, many of the main characters would die due to the choices you make (and some would turn against you), and the fates of the worlds you visit were also more extreme-just look at the cut content where a DS Exile allows the ruined Ravanger to crash into Citadel Station and pretty much demolish it! ...Now consider the amount of people on that thing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR9VtHF5QFQ

...It still looks amazing everytime I watch it... And they cut it.

[Lord Foley]

The Jedi have the job of attempting to bring balance to the force, while Sith try to cause chaos to it.

 

I'm not so sure about that. It wasn't until almost every Jedi in the galaxy was killed that balance was brought to the Force. They never really go into what is meant by 'balance', but I think the Jedi had to die before it could happen. The Jedi served the Republic, really. They weren't trying to balance the Force.

[JediMasterJambi]

I'm not so sure about that. It wasn't until almost every Jedi in the galaxy was killed that balance was brought to the Force. They never really go into what is meant by 'balance', but I think the Jedi had to die before it could happen. The Jedi served the Republic, really. They weren't trying to balance the Force.

 

I like your thinking.

I was speaking in idealization however.

The ideal Jedi brings balance to the force while the ideal Sith will cause chaos.

 

Yoda had already stated that manny Jedi of that era were arrogant, and quick to action. Even the higher-ups. Manny of the Jedi in that era had lost their ideals, lost sight of their true task IMHO.

Anakins tragic fall to the darkside led him to kill tons of Jedi. The few that were spared he eventually hunted down till basically Yoda and Obi were all that remaind. I consider Anakins Prophecy to be the ultimate storyline that unfolds within the 6 movies in total. IMHO Anakin was basically the ultimate purge. He was essential to the downfall of both the Jedi and the Sith of that era. After his love for his son was triumphant he killed the LAST Sith, he himself died, leaving his son to train a new generation of reformed Jedi as guardians.

Really, the Comics they have after that are nice an all. (Resurrecting Boba Fett, Palpatine, and Han having a son...Anakin Solo...) But big GLs vision ends there for me as a fan to his story. All the nice little fantasy stories after that are 2nd rate IMHO. Unless GL comes out with 7,8, and 9.

[Da_Man_2423]

Unless GL comes out with 7,8, and 9.

 

Every Star Wars fan's dream. I'm pretty sure he's stated that he isn't making anymore, forgot where I read that from though.

[luckyariot]

True, but then, he also said that he had decided not to make the prequels either...

[ForeverNight]

Nevermind the fact, that prior to the prequels' release, he had stated that it was going to be a trilogy of trilogies...

 

So, GL, provided your reading this, GET OFF YOUR REAR AND MAKE THE STUPID THINGS.

 

@Topic: I, personally, like the alignment system that AD&D uses, the Chaotic, Neutral, Law and Good, Evil, Neutral.

 

You can apply it to any situation and have it work. So, even though Star Wars is more of a Good vs. Evil type story, it can still be applied and work.

 

I just don't get why Bioware didn't used it in KotOR, seeing as NWN has it and the Engine is based off of the NWN Engine. Maybe they had a decent reason... you never know!

[luckyariot]

Uh... I really didn't expect to come back and find this thread in 'flames'.

 

To be on topic, while K2 does keep with the SW idea of good vs. evil, it is much more subtle, more characters and actions are morally ambiguous, and overall it is rather grey. It has depth (where its finished) where K1 was sometimes lacking... whether you played LS or DS.

[ChAiNz.2da]

Uh... I really didn't expect to come back and find this thread in 'flames'.

Me either.. fixed

 

Let's keep it cool gang. Posts minus the personal attacks this time. - Cz

[whatthehell]

i believe the droids are all nuetral, simply because they can be reprogramed into being good or evil

[bally3000]

well when i was young i used to llove being the dark side cause u get more wepons money ect but now am older i seem to put myself in the persons shoes and i cannot be evil its so strange. its like i could kill this guy here for speaking to me in a rash way but then wht would his family be like with out him... lol but the light side feels so much better =D