McCain Vs. Obama.

[Totenkopf]

FTR, I don't advocate rushing to war either. I merely don't share the naive asumption that you can talk anyone into doing what you want if they perceive it to be against their interests. I agree that "gunboat diplomacy" has its uses, but then that's not really diplomacy (ie give and take), just an ultimatum. But as a wise man once said..."the only diplomat I know is a fully loaded phaser bank" (or words to that effect) Or, in the real world,...."speak softly, but carry a BIG stick" (TR).

[Jae Onasi]

Merged 'Election '08' thread with this one. Please keep all discussions about the '08 US Presidential election in this thread. Thanks.

[Jae Onasi]

Well, the VP nominees for both parties are going to be announced soon. Who do you think will be the ones chosen by Obama and McCain?

[Totenkopf]

..... And what's your problem with the UN?

 

_EW_

 

While this was addressed to someone else, I couldn't help but laugh at the sentiment. Are you serious, Ender? The UN is basically a worthless and corrupt institution. It's also powerless if only 1 of 5 members (out of ~200 total) spikes a proposed course of action. Just as the LoN didn't work in the 30s, the UN is effectively useless except for dog and pony shows in the diplomatic arena. Nice for soundbites and inefficient "good works" that could probably be better performed by NGOs.

[EnderWiggin]

While this was addressed to someone else, I couldn't help but laugh at the sentiment. Are you serious, Ender? The UN is basically a worthless and corrupt institution.

 

It seems that when I posted that sentence it was poorly worded. I was trying to explain that American arrogance does not give us the right to police the world.

 

I'm aware with the current issues the UN is facing and the problems that it has.

However, I'd still say that a league of states such as the UN should have more claim in 'policing' the world than we should.

 

Plus, it's a good concept in theory, just not in execution.

 

_EW_

[Druganator]

I agree with you on the issue of American arrogance, and policing the world should be done by the united nations, we should stay out of it. I don't care who wins because either way we are all gonna be proper ****ed in the ass by uncle sam, either by taxes from Obama or conservative religious bull**** from McCain

[Da_Man_2423]

It seems that when I posted that sentence it was poorly worded. I was trying to explain that American arrogance does not give us the right to police the world.

 

I'm aware with the current issues the UN is facing and the problems that it has.

However, I'd still say that a league of states such as the UN should have more claim in 'policing' the world than we should.

 

Plus, it's a good concept in theory, just not in execution.

 

_EW_

 

QFT. Still, someone's gonna have to do the "policing" in the meantime if the organization that was supposed to isn't gonna. I'd rather be it us than no one.

[Totenkopf]

It seems that when I posted that sentence it was poorly worded. I was trying to explain that American arrogance does not give us the right to police the world.

 

I'm aware with the current issues the UN is facing and the problems that it has.

However, I'd still say that a league of states such as the UN should have more claim in 'policing' the world than we should.

 

Plus, it's a good concept in theory, just not in execution.

 

_EW_

 

I'd agree that it's both arrogant and foolish to even think we should be trying to "police" the world. The most we should strive to do is protect our interests (which should be somewhat narrowly defined) and realize that we don't have the resources, nevermind the right or even collective will, to "rule the world".

 

However, not really sure that "policing" the world is a job an international organization is up to anyway, let alone it's having any right to do so in the first place.

[Web Rider]

the problem here stands with the fact that most of the UN member nations have no power. Militarily or economically, they are small and their commitment to the UN and what it does is mostly vocal. The UN member nations with power, US, Europe(some of), Russia, China, and a handful of other nations, are often at odds with each other over getting involved, since the UN doing something about Africa would harm a number of these nations interests.

 

And at the same time, many of these nations are more than happy to sit back and do nothing. Europe has never lost it's "we're above this, let somebody else do it" attitude. Nobody WANTS Russia to patrol the world except Russia, and feelings about China doing it are much the same. So it falls to the only other UN member nation with any sort of significant policing power to do it.

 

It's a very annoying "rock and a hard place" IMO. If we police the world, people hate us for being "oppressors", if we don't, people hate us for not doing our "job" that they're so keen on assigning us. Between the two I'd much rather take heat for doing nothing than take heat for at least trying.

 

I agree with Totenkopf though, I'm not exactly sure who should be keeping people in check, be it a nation or organization. Though, I have to say IMO, it is good to have somebody out there to at least attempt to do something. Though at this point I have to wonder if "policing" is the wrong word. Isn't even the multilateral diplomacy that prevents an all-out nuclear war between Pakistan and India "policing"? It doesn't feel like it, but talking people down is one thing police do.

[mimartin]

Well, the VP nominees for both parties are going to be announced soon. Who do you think will be the ones chosen by Obama and McCain?

Fox News is reporting Joe Biden is going to Obama running mate.

[Achilles]

Obama's first act as President: Outsource Fox News to the bottom of the ocean. I'll even write my congressperson to let him or her know that I approve.

[mimartin]

Obama's first act as President: Outsource Fox News to the bottom of the ocean. I'll even write my congressperson to let him or her know that I approve.

Isn't your congressperson a Republican?

[Achilles]

Both of my Senators are. My Representative isn't.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Obama's first act as President: Outsource Fox News to the bottom of the ocean. I'll even write my congressperson to let him or her know that I approve.

O'REILLY SMASH

 

[Arcesious]

CNN confirms it is Obama-Biden.

 

My current stance on this:

 

Obama's plans sound good, but he seems inconsitent, and playing it far too safe. Mccain's plans seem to be really stupid, but Mccain seems more consistent and willing to give a clear answer to a question than Obama.

Biden sounds great, overall though.

 

My family will most likely vote for Mccain, as my father and mother are hoping Romney will be Mccain's VP candidate. They think that Romney is economically smart. That he is, somewhat, but the GOP's policies = FAIL, imo.

Biden sounds pretty tough, and smart. He works for civil rights, helping the middle class, and trying to make college more affordable.

Mccain seems more experienced when it comes to life, what with making hard decisions and whatnot, but his foreign polices and economic plans are utter crap.

 

Compare Mccain's website to Obama's- you see far more detailed plans on Obama's site. Obama has a lot of focus int he area of civil liberties, but mccain's plans are typical Bush-style polices. Mccain has voted with Bush 86% of the time. But Obama has been a flip-flop voter.

 

If there's something I'd like to see an improvement in Obama, it's for him to be more decisive, to address the issues without political BS tactics, and to quit with the pandering. If there's an improvement I'd like to see in Mccain, it would be for him to reconsider his economic, foreign policy, and civil rights stances, and not so negative and aggressive.

[Da_Man_2423]

Biden sounds great, overall though.

 

Biden sounds pretty tough, and smart. He works for civil rights, helping the middle class, and trying to make college more affordable.

 

Don't forget talking too much.

[mimartin]

But Obama has been a flip-flop voter.

‘When you’re finished changing, you’re finished.’[/Quote]

Only a fool stands by their decision when new evidence overwhelming confirms they are wrong.

 

 

Who's the more foolish: The fool, or the fool who follows him?[/Quote]

[El Sitherino]

Only a fool stands by their decision when new evidence overwhelming confirms they are wrong.

 

 

Quoted for Emphasis.

 

Simply labeling him as a flip-flopper is ignoring the bigger picture of what the topics were. Sometimes changing your mind is a good thing. Remember how we changed our minds about Government enforced hatred?

[Web Rider]

But Obama has been a flip-flop voter.

 

I did not realize that voting for sandals or with sandals was an option in Congress, I was under the impression that they generally wanted a "yes" or "no" answer.

 

Don't forget talking too much.

Yes.

[Arcesious]

Flip-flopping isn't neccessarily bad, as a change of mind can always be a good thing, indeed. But I'll explain why Barack's changes of mind concern me. For example, the offshore oil drilling issue. He gave into peer pressure about his policies on not doing that that. Giving into peer pressure is a flip-flopping characteristic- one that makes me question his charcter and ability to make the right decisions. Hopefully Biden will provide a firm resistance by counteracting peer pressure. If Biden has the guts to correct Obama when he is about to make a mistake, then I won't have anythng to worry about. Still, that is my biggest cause for concern.

[Achilles]

Even though I'm a little miffed with Obama right now, I still think I need to chime in here.

 

Barack Obama has displayed extraordinary leadership in many ways. Yes, his change of heart re: offshore drilling probably was a "cave" on an unpopular viewpoint during a tightly contested election campaign. Just like any number of other cave ins we've seen from other politicians in the past during other elections. To somehow insinuate that it's a tragic character flaw unique to this candidate is either short-sighted or dishonest.

 

I'm not saying that the change of heart was right, or okay, or something I agree with, however I do think that if you're going to use such incidents as a measure of a candidate, you should at least be realistic and consistent when doing so. So make sure you're measuring everyone with that stick, okay?

 

Sorry for the rant.

[Web Rider]

Flip-flopping isn't neccessarily bad, as a change of mind can always be a good thing, indeed. But I'll explain why Barack's changes of mind concern me. For example, the offshore oil drilling issue. He gave into peer pressure about his policies on not doing that that. Giving into peer pressure is a flip-flopping characteristic- one that makes me question his charcter and ability to make the right decisions. Hopefully Biden will provide a firm resistance by counteracting peer pressure. If Biden has the guts to correct Obama when he is about to make a mistake, then I won't have anythng to worry about. Still, that is my biggest cause for concern.

 

The biggest point of my post was how stupid a term "flip flopping" has become. It's getting overused in place of actual discussion and thought. I dunno why they abandoned "waffling", it was so much better, waffles are tasty, I hate flip-flops. give me regular sandals any day. At least talking about waffling made me want to go to IHop.

 

It's just one of those things that bugs me.

[Litofsky]

Biden sounds pretty tough, and smart. He works for civil rights, helping the middle class, and trying to make college more affordable.

Biden definitely seem to be a good choice. He's the chairman of the Foreign Relations committee, was the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and has been in the Senate for quite some time. He seems to cover most (if not all) of the points that Obama has been hit for.

 

Overall, I'd say that choosing Biden as his running mate is a good choice. Now, the question is, "Who will McCain choose?"

 

But his foreign polices and economic plans are utter crap.

McCain, McCain. I seem to recall him saying that the economy was his weakest point? That's definitely not comforting, especially considering the state we're in.

[Web Rider]

Overall, I'd say that choosing Biden as his running mate is a good choice. Now, the question is, "Who will McCain choose?"

 

McCain, McCain. I seem to recall him saying that the economy was his weakest point? That's definitely not comforting, especially considering the state we're in.

 

Alright, I'll start the bidding with a Huckabee.

 

anyone want to raise me a Romney or Cheney?

[Litofsky]

Alright, I'll start the bidding with a Huckabee.

 

anyone want to raise me a Romney or Cheney?

 

I see your Huckabee, and raise you a Romney. If it were Cheney, I think the country would go into riots.