Anakin vs. Revan

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

but Jacen Solo is, as a Canon Sue, almost certainly capable of going through half the cast of the Movies casually. Even most of the Jedi.

jacen was a lot like revan, wasnt he? both sues as you put it, both trying to 'save' the galaxy. but i find jacen a jerk. (i'm sure revan was too, but the k1+ revan is my fave). i mean, all that stuff he did in LotF was *so* bad... but what really got me, what *really* made me dislike him was the way he used that little girl in revelation ( i think). and his ridiculous notion of controlling the dark side. pfeh. [i havnt posted any spoilers, and please dont post any for me! i have invincible on hold at my library!]

but think about it: they need some canon sues in there. vader wouldve been one if he was'nt dice teppanyaki style.

[Corinthian]

No, they don't. You never NEED a Mary-Sue. In fact, quite the opposite. You need a lack of them.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

really? because everyone has some emotional problems. some are plain wrecks. i just thought it would be nice for once to have some guy with no such problems, is confident, strong etc. AFAIK, revan fits that bill. but as i said: they are probably going to give him issues sometime. i see it: reconciling with his horrible dark deeds. maybe even have a pre amnesaic revan in his mind? (whoa!! that would shake things up!) and revanchist? maybe theyll make him an impulsive over achiever. its quite plausible.

[Endorenna]

Okay, dumb question: What, exactly, do you mean by a 'Mary Sue' character?

[Corinthian]

Prepare for even further enlightenment.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanonSue

[Endorenna]

:lol:

 

(wipes tears of laughter from eyes) Oh. My. Word! I think I smell Carth...

 

Well, I just read all that stuff you linked me to, and I have come to a couple conclusions:

 

1. Stories that have no Mary Sue characters get very boring very fast.

 

2. Main characters that aren't the least bit Mary Sue are idiotic, ugly bums who failed everything they ever did despite being raised in the perfect home.

 

In other words, I think that some types of Mary Sues are very horrible and other types (like most of the ones in Star Wars) are pretty good to have around.

[Corinthian]

I'm afraid I have to call 'Wrong' on that. I've read a great number of books without Mary-Sue characters. It's akin to the Wesley Crusher Principle - their very presence in a series damages the quality of it. For example, series without a Mary-Sue protagonist, or any Mary-Sues whatsoever.

 

1: The Ciaphas Cain: Hero of the Imperium sextology.

 

2: The A Song of Ice and Fire septology.

 

3: The Thrawn Trilogy.

 

Furthermore, the kind of character you're talking about is known as an Anti-Sue, and they are typically just as annoying as Mary-Sues. The difference between a Mary-Sue and a well made character is this. - A well-designed character is a fully-fleshed out person, whereas a Mary-Sue is centered around just how awesome he or she is.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

do you think the writers knew that revan would appear a canon sue?

[Corinthian]

Of course not. Nobody ever sets out to make a serious Mary-Sue, although I've seen my fair share of parody Sues.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

know of any sw ones?

[Corinthian]

Sure do. Jacen Solo, his entire existence, Revan becomes a rare Non-Present one in TSL, Luke Skywalker becomes one a lot of the time in the EU, Mara Jade often becomes one when anyone except Zahn writes her, Corran Horn can be a bit of one...

 

Yeah, that's all the obvious ones I can think of.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

i meant parody sues

[Corinthian]

Oh. Parody Sues usually show up in Fanfiction, really. There isn't any straight-up Star Wars comedy, as far as I know. Peculiar, really.

[Lance Monance]

Corran Horn can be a bit of one...

 

Hope you're not referring to "I, Jedi"...

[Inyri]

Mara Jade often becomes one when anyone except Zahn writes her

Stackpole wrote her okay in I, Jedi, but everyone else can die in a fire as far as writing her is concerned.

[Corinthian]

Not really. I, Jedi, despite the sometimes ridiculous amount of power he shows, was a break away. The X-Wing series, though...he's lusted after by two very attractive women, is the best X-Wing pilot in the new squadron, is Force-Sensitive, was the only person to ever escape Lusankya, etc, etc...

 

Yeah, there are exceptions, but that's a good rule of thumb. Stackpole's gotten a lot better, and considering the X-Wing novels were the definition of Pulp Fiction, I don't begrudge him his errors there.

[Ultimate Vader]

Where's the source to prove that G-Canon is the strongest canon?(this is for Tommycat)

If there's real prove about that, then this debate will be over.

[Corinthian]

*Rolls eyes* Look it up, man. Everybody knows this.

[adamqd]

Where's the source to prove that G-Canon is the strongest canon?(this is for Tommycat)

If there's real prove about that, then this debate will be over.

 

There are a few source's, but this one is the Keeper of the Holocron Leland Chee addressing a similar question on the official forums...

 

Poster: Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as canonical & non-canonical? Are there various degrees of officialness?

 

L.Chee: The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.

 

I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon.

 

and if you didn't know... http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron and http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leland_Chee

[Endorenna]

I'm afraid I have to call 'Wrong' on that. I've read a great number of books without Mary-Sue characters. It's akin to the Wesley Crusher Principle - their very presence in a series damages the quality of it. For example, series without a Mary-Sue protagonist, or any Mary-Sues whatsoever.

 

Why does everyone hate Wesley Crusher!?!?!?!? So he's wonder kid of the galaxy. And...? It's Star Trek!

 

Furthermore, the kind of character you're talking about is known as an Anti-Sue, and they are typically just as annoying as Mary-Sues. The difference between a Mary-Sue and a well made character is this. - A well-designed character is a fully-fleshed out person, whereas a Mary-Sue is centered around just how awesome he or she is.

 

Okay, I went and looked at one of the tests. Actually, I looked at three of them. If my character has anything at all to do with me, what I like, is pretty/handsome, is cool, or does anything out of the ordinary, is any age under forty, has any distinguishing feature, has an unusual past, a vengeance motive, caused the death of a friend/relative, or carries an unusual weapon, he/she almost automatically gets the "Kill the character and start over" score.

 

I'm not here to argue this with anyone, I'm just explaining my impression of 'Mary-Sue' from what I just read.

[Drunkside]

No.. actually im not joking, i was just awakened by a similar poll on the filefront....

[Corinthian]

Well, the whole galaxy hates Wesley Crusher because his very existence made Star Trek: The Next Generation actively worse, even when he wasn't on screen.

 

Also, I don't know what kind of crappy Mary-Sue Litmus test you're using, but it's a crappy one. Then again, it's also possible your character is a Mary-Sue.

[Endorenna]

I didn't take the test, I just looked at it.

 

However, from what I've read, I'd say that yea, I have a bit of the infamous Mary-Sue in my characters. However, I don't think that the tests can truly say that a character is a Mary-Sue, simply because from the options there are to choose, it will always sound like the story's 'centered around just how awesome he or she is' when it's really about their journey, what they do, what they don't do, what they're incapable of doing and how it affects them and their friends, all the work they did to get to be a cool character, their sacrifices for others, etc. Also, I don't think that the "Is the character the same gender as you?" question is fair. I have three stories going about heroines and one about a hero. Why so many girls? Because I understand girls a lot better than I understand boys. On the other side of the gender fence, there's this mysterious 'guy thing' that makes 90% of the male population think they have to be all manly and everything and all sorts of wierd stuff! I'm sure you guys think the same thing about girls. Therefore, I think that guys write stories about guys better than girls do and vice-versa.

 

Ah, here we go. I just took one of the tests, using my hero as the base. Here's what the results said:

 

"(name) is only a little like you. He is not at all cool; in fact, he thinks cool is a temperature reading, and when he says "Oh, I just put on whatever old thing's lying around," he means "on the floor, where I threw it last night." He may have sometimes thought that he was special, or destined for greater things, but probably dismissed the idea as a fantasy. He's come in for his share of hurt, but gotten off with minor damage. And you've been sparing with the free handouts: whatever he gains, he's worked for."

 

And for one of my heroines:

 

"(name) is suspiciously similar to you as you'd like to be. She may be popular, or she may not, but no matter what she's impossible to ignore; she stands out. She may have sometimes thought that she was special, or destined for greater things, but probably dismissed the idea as a fantasy. She's come in for her share of hurt, but gotten off with minor damage. And you've been sparing with the free handouts: whatever she gains, she's worked for."

 

I've known this for a long time. It's partially true. About the part with minor damage--she gets pulverized on many, many occasions. That's what I'm always careful about with my characters; I give them many instances where, no matter how powerful they are, she or he can't win. I make sure to have them react to circumstances realistically (aka covered with blood and not looking very glamorous/handsome after a hard-fought, messy battle or getting tortured) and other things along those lines. Oh, yea, I almost forgot. One of my heroines has a few scars on her face! (gasp of horror ooo, I'm gonna love springing that one on the person who reads this stuff for me )

 

Anyway, Corinthian, you'd probably consider all my characters (except for maybe the hero) Mary-Sues. I think that most good, cool, fun-to-read-and/or-write characters need some Mary-Sue in them, but for heaven's sake, not too much! (There's a reason James Bond gets on my nerves whenever he opens his stinkin' mouth! Now I know what to call it. )

 

PS: Don't make comments about Wes around my friend. She'll kill you.

 

PSS: If you think that a particular test is really good, I'd appreciate a link.

[TKA-001]

I've never found any "Mary Sue" (I hate that term) tests to be useful, so I am of the opinion that nobody should need a test on the internet to tell whether a character is a "Mary Sue" or not.

[Corinthian]

True. Mary-Sue tests are a bit flawed, but then again, they tend to also be fairly accurate. Run Eragon or Edward Cullen through them, for example.