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Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?

Darth_Yuthura

By Darth_Yuthura
in Tython Temple

Is TOR as satisfying to people as KOTOR III?  

146 members have voted

  1. 1. Is TOR as satisfying to people as KOTOR III?

    • It's an ending and I'm glad that they will continue from TSL.
      26
    • Being 300 years too late killed the story.
      88
    • Couldn't care less. The gameplay is what matters.
      30
    • There's absolutely no way to know until TOR actually comes out.
      2

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adamqd Newbie

adamqd

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It can be good if Bioware do what they promised and make this like no other MMO, the thing that scares me, is that most of the whining being done on the official boards is "We want a sandbox, we want a player economy, player housing, crafting" and there is no mention of Story, Character progression, impact on storyline etc, which scares me.

 

I think a lot of the people flooding the boards are just MMO lovers who want somewhere to have a social life when SWG closes shop... Basically everything that made KotOR good is absent, and everything that makes MMO's boring, "Use your imagination cus there's nothing to do or look at", and non-Star Wars is present (IMO). I just wish that Bioware would release some info on what where actually gonna be playing... the SIMs, or something worthy of being in the place of a SPRPG KotOR 3.

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Xenon_gun Newbie

Xenon_gun

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The thing I dislike about it most is that it is an MMO. I tried Galaxies recently, and the experience was bad. Sure, it was an ok game, somewhat balanced and all that jazz, it even had a small storyline which you could follow.

What went wrong? Well, a Star Wars game should be cinematic, and not so reliant on having to kill X creatures to get X resources, then travel to spot Y. Rinse and repeat to gain a level. Levels should be meaningful, even lower ones. It was extremely ironic to be killed in one shot by a Stormtrooper on Corellia, while being at level 6. I thought these guys weren't that tough.

I'm afraid that The Old Republic will fall into the same mold. In order to follow any kind of story, you have to grind to level X. To grind, keep repeatedly eliminating creatures over here and there.

Compare that to the Knights of the Old Republic games, where, true, you do fight creatures and you do kill lots of Sith troops and dark Jedi all over the galaxy, but it all has some meaning to it. Also, they do not materialise out of nowhere behind you or next to you like in Galaxies.

 

If there will be a story at all. Because an MMORPG can't have a written story (that makes you feel like a big movie hero), quite evidently.

 

On one hand, having the entire thing set 300 years into the future is bad, because it is no longer the same time frame. I'd like to see rebuilding efforts take place just after the Dark Wars period. I'd like to see the True Sith start to appear or the remains of the Sith struggle for survival (for a change!). I'd like to learn what happened to Revan and the Exile. Maybe we will get to learn this last part, and maybe not.

On the other hand, I think that maybe setting it 300 years later is good in a way. There is space for KOTOR III if it ever comes out. (However, I doubt it, since then it would have to fit in with this story, and that means the True Sith winning, which the player knows in advance)

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Kl0kw3rk Newbie

Kl0kw3rk

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But the reason for everything turning MMO is simple. You can't copy an MMO for free, and most people age 10-20 rather spend $200+/year to kill 1,000,000,000 giant spiders so that they can stand in a crowd and show the ph4t piece of loot they got for it.

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EnderWiggin Newbie

EnderWiggin

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I tried Galaxies recently, and the experience was bad.

 

I'd like to point out that Galaxies is a sucky game nowadays.

When I played it (almost 5 years ago) it was actually worthwhile.

 

So you may still dislike it because it will be an MMO, but don't try to use Galaxies as reasoning because Galaxies was destroyed by SOE.

 

_EW_

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Darth_Yuthura Newbie

Darth_Yuthura

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^^

 

Yeah, you got it. If Galaxies was never that great to begin with and is now a 'sucky' game, then why continue the trend? What has changed?

 

Since it's not KOTOR, there is no trend to assume it will have success like those games. In fact, I would go so far as to say anything in regard to KOTOR would continue a trend of getting inferior with each game.

 

My advice to Lucasarts: no TOR and no KOTOR III.

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Hallucination Newbie

Hallucination

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^^

 

Yeah, you got it. If Galaxies was never that great to begin with and is now a 'sucky' game, then why continue the trend? What has changed?

The developers.

 

Since it's not KOTOR, there is no trend to assume it will have success like those games. In fact, I would go so far as to say anything in regard to KOTOR would continue a trend of getting inferior with each game.

It's not much of a trend if there are only two games so far. :dozey:

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labyrinthian Newbie

labyrinthian

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When I first heard the announcement that it would be MMO, I knew I would never play TOR. Ever. Just not interested. Even though the KOTOR 2 that should have been (and is being restored) is perhaps my second favorite RPG after Torment. The first KOTOR is maybe number 6 on my list. And I've been a huge Star Wars fan since the age of 3. But MMO? No thanks. I'm not the target audience.

 

But then something made me feel better. If EA had released KOTOR 3, I wouldn't have been able to buy it because of nasty DRM. So at least this way, it's easier not to buy it. Since, you know, I don't want to. Life is easier when temptations are removed by outside forces.

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labyrinthian Newbie

labyrinthian

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Sounds like a personal problem.

 

_EW_

 

Very funny. I'm not going to derail the thread into EA DRM unpleasantry. Just saying "if DRM, then I won't buy".

 

Also, your little snark made me reread my post. Didn't notice it the first time, but don't you think it's interesting that a huge Star Wars fan and huge KOTOR fan does not consider himself the target audience for the shiny new Star Wars role playing game?

 

Another observation: while non-mmo people understand how many people do like mmos, mmo people lack that awareness of the other side. There really are a lot of gamers with no interest in mmos, and who simply won't play one. Interestingly enough, many of those are the die hards are single player rpg players (caveat -- this is only anecdotal in that I know a lot of people who fall into that category, and have seen many online).

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gianner Newbie

gianner

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I myself haven't played any MMO. I tried to play Galaxies back then, but not something serious, just the 15-day trial...

I am not hardcore fan, but I love the Star Wars Saga...

This is actually the first time I seriously consider playing an MMO. That is for various reasons.

First of all, Bioware. As EnderWiggin pointed out before, SWG was destroyed by SOE. I have faith that this project, with a huge budget if I might add, will not fail like SWG did. And there is hardly a game left from Bioware that I haven't played and enjoyed!

Second of all, there is no KotOR3, and I really love SW games. How will I spend my free time? I know, there are better things, but there is still time left to spend...

Third of all, sociality! I've joined a Guild. Met the members. I chat with them, share opinions, have some fun. This is what MMOs are for. At least from our side. Cause from companies' side, it is all about making money!

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Tommycat Newbie

Tommycat

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Another observation: while non-mmo people understand how many people do like mmos, mmo people lack that awareness of the other side.

 

Wow, that's insulting. It also happens to be the opposite of the truth. Almost all MMO players were at one time SP players. I used to despise MMO's. If this thread shows anything, it shows how the MMO people know the SP position, but the SP people tend to ignore the MMO position. In fact most of us would rather have had KotOR III, but are ok with it being an MMO. Maybe it shows that MMO players are more willing to try a game that might be good rather than dismiss it outright because it doesn't fit our prejudiced view.

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True_Avery Newbie

True_Avery

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I'm also a single-player gamer, but likely would have switched to MMO for KOTOR III. I won't even try this because it kills any KOTOR III possibility.

What exactly did it kill?

 

Another game where you play as a new person with amnesia with some references to the previous game, in which older characters are poorly stitched in to bring in the crowds?

 

TSL killed KOTOR III long before TOR did.

 

Want to play as Revan again? Exile? It is incredibly difficult to continue a character that, in the first game, the player determined the personality of. The only feasible way to do is to...

 

Well, what do you know. Give them amnesia again!

 

Wait. Wouldn't of that have been the first KOTOR's storyline verbatim? A good part of the second?

 

I'd rather play as neither than a poorly stitched together character that tries to play to the personality style of the character you created in the original game. I'd rather play as neither instead of the same character who loses their memory again, or loses their power again in order to vomit up some excuse as to why you have to level up again and gain all your powers back.

 

The main problem is, again, it is not feasible to continue an RPG player personal character without incredible attention to detail and a team stitching them together throughout the entire process.

 

That is probably going to work with Mass Effect, because it is the same company, team, etc putting it together that will apparently work off of your last game's save game.

 

Why would it not work with KOTOR III? Because they were made by different companys and writers.

 

Obsidian did the second game, and Avellone did the second story. Problem? Avellone has his own writing style, and his own direction. Obsidian released an unfinished game with an unfinished story that vaguely resembled the first game. It is a stretch to even call TSL a sequel to K1.

 

So, how do you stitch 2 stories together that barely work off each other, with characters that are build by completely different writers, and stories that are full of holes and contradict each other at times?

 

You don't. It isn't feasible. You can claim it is, but Obsidian and Avellone killed a chance for a Bioware made K3. Bioware, Lucas Arts, and Obsidian's poor planning ruined a chance for a K3 done by Obsidian.

 

KOTOR 3 was not a good idea. It was not a feasible idea. It was in the trash by the merit it had conflicting ground to stand on.

 

But hey, give us a new character you say?

 

And who will it be this time? Which Mary Sue god will the writers throw at us next? What will be the cliff hanger this time? What sad, pathetic attempts will they make to mesh the previous games together? What level of amnesia will you have this time, and just how powerful -were- you before?

 

Screw that.

 

TSL left the story dead and bleeding in an alley way. Lucas Arts, in my opinion, should have never handed it over to Obsidian in the first place if they were just going to pull the plug on them early.

 

Bioware, now that the tattered remains of -their- story was handed back to them, saw that there was no saving he rotting remains and it was thus time to recycle them and send it into a new direction.

 

I have long assumed that some sort of time skip would have to take place for a K3. It would either have to be done before the first game, or way, way, way after TSL. Long enough that people forgot what happened at that time.

 

See, you're looking at this from a story angle. Why can't the story go on?

 

Problem is, you're not looking at this from a developers point of view. From a writers. The writers are the one that are paid to look, if not stare till their eyes bleed, at the flaws in the story and find ways to move past them. By just standing back and looking at the story, it seems like it should flow well to the next. But a developer has to take a magnifying glass to everything and it became quite obvious that there was no saving what they had been given.

 

Did it have to be an MMO? No. It could have been another single player.

 

But even if it was, you still had zero chance of getting your dream game. It still would have suffered from a skip, new character, new npcs, etc.

 

You would have hated it either way. You just seem to have particular disdain for this game because you have convinced yourself that it will address nothing while never playing the game yourself.

 

Another observation: while non-mmo people understand how many people do like mmos, mmo people lack that awareness of the other side.

Pot, this is Kettle.

 

This thread has been a monument to the exact opposite of that statement.

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Astor Newbie

Astor

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That is probably going to work with Mass Effect, because it is the same company, team, etc putting it together that will apparently work off of your last game's save game.

 

Why would it not work with KOTOR III? Because they were made by different companys and writers.

 

Obsidian did the second game, and Avellone did the second story. Problem? Avellone has his own writing style, and his own direction. Obsidian released an unfinished game with an unfinished story that vaguely resembled the first game. It is a stretch to even call TSL a sequel to K1.

 

I don't consider TSL a sequel at all - a separate game, yes, but not a sequel to what was on the whole twice as good as TSL.

 

It's also why I often think that it would have been better for Lucasarts to have made Expansion Packs (albeit larger than your average expansion) - then you could have used the same character, and continued the story.

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TKA-001 Newbie

TKA-001

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I'm also a single-player gamer, but likely would have switched to MMO for KOTOR III. I won't even try this because it kills any KOTOR III possibility.

You know what I hate the most about this upcoming TOR game? It isn't another Jedi Knight series game. It should have been that. It's absolutely preposterous that this game could be anything else. It also doesn't have the Corporate Sector Authority from the EU in it. What the hell is up with that? They're completely alienating their fanbase by not making a JK-series game with the CSA in it.

 

And motorcycles. I don't see a single hint that motorcycle races are anywhere in this game. It's just unbelievable that they could be so arrogant that they end up completely ignoring what so many motorcyclists out there might enjoy playing. Where is the conclusion to the JK series that we all wanted? Where are the motorcycles?

 

Why are there no motorcycles?!?!

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EnderWiggin Newbie

EnderWiggin

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You know what I hate the most about this upcoming TOR game? It isn't another Jedi Knight series game. It should have been that. It's absolutely preposterous that this game could be anything else. It also doesn't have the Corporate Sector Authority from the EU in it. What the hell is up with that? They're completely alienating their fanbase by not making a JK-series game with the CSA in it.

 

And motorcycles. I don't see a single hint that motorcycle races are anywhere in this game. It's just unbelievable that they could be so arrogant that they end up completely ignoring what so many motorcyclists out there might enjoy playing. Where is the conclusion to the JK series that we all wanted? Where are the motorcycles?

 

Why are there no motorcycles?!?!

 

Well said.

 

_EW_

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True_Avery Newbie

True_Avery

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If they pioneered a new type of MMO, any argument for this being an innovative solution would hold water. But probability is 99.9% it's going to be a WoW clone with different images and names for things.

You mean like the hundreds of single player RPGs, Shooters, racers, sports, etc games out there?

 

Of course it is going to be an MMO that resembles WoW. Like just Gears of War resembles Halo. How Mass Effect resembles KOTOR. How NFL 2007 looks exactly like NFL 2008.

 

WoW clone? The problem with this statement that is thrown around is that it can and will apply to any MMO. Why? Because WoW cut down to the bare basics, made a game out of those basics, and it worked! WoW is a very simple game. Very, very simple. It has so many fans and attention because it did simply correctly.

 

Being that they used the basics of the MMO building plans, every mmo before and after looks like WoW in the same way every FPS resembles Half-Life 1.

 

If you insist on comparing though, then at least call it what it really is:

 

A Guild Wars clone, just hopefully better this time.

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