Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?

[Sharen Thrawn]

What plans?

Their plans for Kotor3 plot.

 

 

So you're saying that it's a ripoff of the OT just because there's a guy whose title is "Emperor"? That's preposterous.

 

News-flash: the word "emperor" has existed for thousands of years, so by your logic, the fact that Palpatine's title was "Emperor" is unoriginal, too.

The problem is that is not some random guy/ruler of a random planet using the title. He's a Sith Lord, fighting with The Republic and ruling a galactic Empire. And of course, he's an über evil main villian. Sounds familiar? The intentions behind naming this Sith lord an Emperor are clear IMO.

 

Yeah, they did use it already, on one planet out of millions in the galaxy.

Now they're gonna copy and paste this concept onto every planet in the MMO. Epic!

[teodesetkata]

In my opinion, I think that the best possible MMO that can be made out of Star Wars would be a non-canon to the storyline one. Imagine just the universe, and you would be some kind of freelancer in it, and have a job, like bounty hunter, entertainer, diplomat, Czerka Corporation employee and such, and not being necessarily Jedi or Sith, part of the Republic or the Sith Empire, just, as Jango Fett says in the movies, "I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe.", or something like that. The idea of just Sith and Jedi fighting in a MMO sounds pretty dumb and uninteresting to me - I hope there'll be professions and such, and freelance exploring and doing interesting story-driven quests. I hope it'll be like that, not just simple killing.

 

But, the possibility of joining a Jedi/Sith academy and learning the ways of the Force shouldn't be left out, either. But being Jedi/Sith shouldn't have an effect on the jobs you do to make your living. As far as I could tell by reading the description of the SW MMO, it states that "choose to be a Jedi or Sith". I don't think there'll be much variety in it.

 

And also, the events in the galaxy that would be determined by other players, should have an effect on the galaxy itself. Just like in KotOR, poisoning the kolto -> the price for the medpacks raises. And, during the Jedi/Sith war, there would be different things to do in a specific planet determined if it is either controlled by the Sith or the Jedi. Important thing that it shouldn't be left out is the fact that there should be different organisations than the Sith and the Jedi - like the Exchange and Pirate organisations, such as the Hutts.

[adamqd]

What is it with people's need to be just another brick in the wall?? I play Games to be the Hero, kick ass across the Galaxy... I can be a non-canon Bar man or a Clothes maker in Real Life lol, less knittin more Kickin!!

[GwannaSauna]

Change of thought: KotOR V: Getting Somewhere... (32 BBY-0 BBY) would be great. It would be like this: KotOR-ish (improved ) with different times in the Prequel Trilogy! Prologue... (32 BBY), Invasion of Naboo + Epic duel w/ Darth Maul (32 BBY) Giant gap (32 BBY-22 BBY), Clone Wars beginning (22 BBY), Getting Somewhere... (19 BBY), Great Jedi Purge (19 BBY), Vader's Apprentice (??? BBY-2 BBY), Battle of Yavin (0 BBY) and you get to choose which one you want to choose! You can save the game at any part at any time and switch to a new one (for example: If you got bored of the Invasion of Naboo sequence, you could save there and (from the main menu) switch over to another part!) Good idea?

 

 

Sorry, I'll get back on topic...

[teodesetkata]

LOL, I never said that it shouldn't be left out. Of course, battling is an important factor in the game, but I hope that there'll be professions. Bounty Hunting, for example, would be very interesting, assassinating targets without being seen.

[Yatsookey]

so sad i wanted to see what happened to revan

hmmm and prime my guess is there will be a section in the game with either history and lore or maybe they will be mentioned by the umm trainers if there will be any

[Darth_Yuthura]

Change of thought: KotOR V: Getting Somewhere... (32 BBY-0 BBY) would be great. It would be like this: KotOR-ish (improved ) with different times in the Prequel Trilogy! Prologue... (32 BBY), Invasion of Naboo + Epic duel w/ Darth Maul (32 BBY) Giant gap (32 BBY-22 BBY), Clone Wars beginning (22 BBY), Getting Somewhere... (19 BBY), Great Jedi Purge (19 BBY), Vader's Apprentice (??? BBY-2 BBY), Battle of Yavin (0 BBY) and you get to choose which one you want to choose! You can save the game at any part at any time and switch to a new one (for example: If you got bored of the Invasion of Naboo sequence, you could save there and (from the main menu) switch over to another part!) Good idea?

 

 

Sorry, I'll get back on topic...

 

That's not entirely accurate. TFU created an entirely new story with a new character, but just as easily done something completely different. The 300 year gap had already carved certain things in stone. I wanted to see Revan and the Exile end their stories in triumph, but now they never return. There is little room for a KOTOR III that doesn't involve changing the story, or it would would detract from all the KOTOR storylines.

[Tommycat]

That's not entirely accurate. TFU created an entirely new story with a new character, but just as easily done something completely different. The 300 year gap had already carved certain things in stone. I wanted to see Revan and the Exile end their stories in triumph, but now they never return. There is little room for a KOTOR III that doesn't involve changing the story, or it would would detract from all the KOTOR storylines.

 

Their fate was sealed long before the MMO. When Obsidian started making gods of them. What did you expect to happen. Two Jedi go into True Sith territory. I don't care how much of a tough guy you are, you go into Bloods territory with Crips colors, and expect to come out victorious?

[Darth_Yuthura]

That's what the cliffhanger was all about. I was expecting something so clever or so miraculous, but instead got something that was a cheap means to an end. They didn't even have an ending like the last stand of the 1300 Spartans and Thespians at Thermopolea. The disappointment didn't come from Obsidian, but from whoever decided to kill the cliffhanger because they couldn't come up with a dramatic ending.

[Astor]

That's what the cliffhanger was all about. I was expecting something so clever or so miraculous, but instead got something that was a cheap means to an end.

 

I'm disappointed too, but it seems you've let your expectations get the better of you - and there was never any promise of a KOTOR III, aside from the rumor mongering that circulated about once every six months.

 

They didn't even have an ending like the last stand of the 1300 Spartans and Thespians at Thermopolea.

 

That would've sucked pretty badly - and we'd still be hearing the screams for blood from the Revan fanboys even if that were the case.

 

Also, it would have been reinforcing the godliness that Obsidian put into TSL - and that's something I, for one, can do without.

 

The disappointment didn't come from Obsidian, but from whoever decided to kill the cliffhanger because they couldn't come up with a dramatic ending.

 

I've been thinking about this for a while, and there's not really a cliff-hanger at all when you look at it. Each of the two KOTOR games is pretty much self-contained. TSL wasn't that much of a sequel as it was a completely separate game, with Revan occasionally mentioned to create some semblance of a connection.

[Sharen Thrawn]

I'm disappointed too, but it seems you've let your expectations get the better of you - and there was never any promise of a KOTOR III, aside from the rumor mongering that circulated about once every six months.

Not really. Pre-production of K3 began already in the middle of 2004, but the team responsible for it at Lucas Arts was fired only a couple months later. We heard rumors about it back in the days and not so long time ago actual concept arts from the cancelled K3 project leaked.

 

I've been thinking about this for a while, and there's not really a cliff-hanger at all when you look at it. Each of the two KOTOR games is pretty much self-contained. TSL wasn't that much of a sequel as it was a completely separate game, with Revan occasionally mentioned to create some semblance of a connection.

Hmmm... Despite having a different character, K2 was basically all about Revan, the Mandalorian Wars and other topics introduced in the first game. TSL completly changed/expanded the player's view of Revan and the events in K1.

[Astor]

Hmmm... Despite having a different character, K2 was basically all about Revan, the Mandalorian Wars and other topics introduced in the first game. TSL completly changed/expanded the player's view of Revan and the events in K1.

 

It was about defeating the Sith Triumvirate, while listening to every NPCs opinion on how Revan was a god. It's almost like they added all the Revan refences just to bulk up the plot.

[Tommycat]

Obsidian's K2 killed Revan by making him into a god. Then they conveniently sent him to do battle in unwinnable odds. If he made it out, it would have been a cheat. If he died in the game it is no different than hearing great stories of heroism. The Spartans had tactics and terrain to their advantage. Revan and the Exile were outsiders attempting to overthrow a race. What was he going to do, plop down on the Sith home world and hack his way through the whole place? Sorry, but it's probably best to leave us to our imaginations as to how he did it.

 

Besides, it gives people a chance to make him more of a legend than the true Revan. Make him "eight feet tall, kills Sith by the hundreds. And if he were here he would defeat the Sith with fireballs from his eyes and lightning from his .... um... hands... yeah... hands..."

[Darth_Yuthura]

The first game was self contained... that can't really be disputed. The second was anything but self-contained. The climax came at the end of the game and... what was the resolution? Some old witch telling the Exile only some of what was going to happen? That she and Revan were going to have to fight the True Sith? That's an ending?

 

And just because Revan and the Exile would defeat the Sith... for some reason, I never even pictured in my head that they were going to use brute strength to slay them all until someone described it that way. I imagined something brilliant that would have allowed a single person to alter the course of history. That was the whole buildup that came about Revan from HK-47. It's not so far-fetched that cunning and deception can beat brute strength.

 

If you don't believe me, then believe history. Only a few individuals were responsible for 9/11 and look at the havoc those few had on history. THEY didn't cause anything that happened after the attack, it was a populace.

[Weiser_Cain]

I believe I wish you hadn't said that.

[Tommycat]

The first game was self contained... that can't really be disputed. The second was anything but self-contained. The climax came at the end of the game and... what was the resolution? Some old witch telling the Exile only some of what was going to happen? That she and Revan were going to have to fight the True Sith? That's an ending?

That is the failing of TSL. It was not a complete game. Heck even Lucas knew better than to make his movies with the expectation of a sequel. Yes they had a planned story, but each movie could stand on its own without the following movie.

 

And just because Revan and the Exile would defeat the Sith... for some reason, I never even pictured in my head that they were going to use brute strength to slay them all until someone described it that way. I imagined something brilliant that would have allowed a single person to alter the course of history. That was the whole buildup that came about Revan from HK-47. It's not so far-fetched that cunning and deception can beat brute strength.

Um... I'll start with the basic of that story is probably best left as a bit of history. Not as a whole game to explain it. Unless you start out as the godly Revan as described in TSL, it won't be your player doing it. Instead you'll get exposition from other sources... may as well be exposition by NPC's in the MMO 300 years later.

 

If you don't believe me, then believe history. Only a few individuals were responsible for 9/11 and look at the havoc those few had on history. THEY didn't cause anything that happened after the attack, it was a populace.

Excellent example. Better than any other I could have used. This supports my argument better than anything. If you make a game based on the terrorists, you would have far too short of a game to really make it worth it. NOW if you make a game in the aftermath of that event it has much more options for story. Large grandiose plans like the ones used by the terrorists are best as exposition and explaining WHY things are the way they are.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Sorry, but I don't see how 9/11 fits with your argument. As much as I disliked what they did, you can't ignore that they took on a juggernaut like the US and won... because they used their enemies' agents against them. That was what I expected Revan to do against the True Sith.

 

The best dramas I've seen are those that don't turn out as expected. It was expected that Persia would dominate Greece, but because the Greeks were so clever, they could hold off 300,000 with only a fraction that number. Who are credited as the heros? At the end of TSL, it is expected that the Sith would ultimately win. Would history have remembered the last stand of the 300 if the Persians just pulled out without reason? I guess that a stalemate was unexpected, but hardly a fitting end to a great series.

 

Most who are for the 300 years later often bring up that there are too few Jedi, too beat-up Republic, and that any story that comes from this is either too unbelievable or simply can't work out.

 

My example of 9/11 is to show that a lack of numbers does not directly influence the potential quality of any KOTOR III... in fact could make it that much better. I would be more likely to believe Revan was clever enough to beat the True Sith than that they decided to just let the Republic and Jedi regain their strength so they could have a fair fight. Why would they have done something so stupid after all the flawless actions they took before then?

 

Of course, this is only my opinion. Feel free to argue with it.

[Tommycat]

Sorry, but I don't see how 9/11 fits with your argument. As much as I disliked what they did, you can't ignore that they took on a juggernaut like the US and won... because they used their enemies' agents against them. The best dramas I've seen are those that don't turn up as expected. At the end of TSL, it is expected that the Sith would ultimately win. I guess that a stalemate was unexpected, but hardly a fitting end to a series.

 

Most who are for the 300 years later often bring up that there are too few Jedi, too beat-up Republic, and that any story that comes from this is either too unbelievable or simply can't work out.

 

My example of 9/11 is to show that a lack of numbers does not directly influence the potential quality of any KOTOR III... in fact could make it that much better. I would be more likely to believe Revan was clever enough to beat the True Sith than that they decided to just let the Republic and Jedi regain their strength so they could have a fair fight. Why would they have done something so stupid after all the flawless actions they took before then?

 

Of course, this is only my opinion. Feel free to argue with it.

Um... in a game, you want to tell me how you could translate that little attack translates to how a game could play out. As I said, It would be better as merely exposition. The small numbers did not stop us. It did not defeat us. In fact it reinvigorated us(it was our leadership that did not properly capitalize on that that caused the breakdown).

 

Example: From the Sith perspective they recall that they were not planning to attack the Republic until Revan and the Exile attacked them. From the Republic perspective they could explain that Revan and the Exile slowed the inevitable advance.

 

Translating it to a game where the end will be that the true Sith are not stopped will not sit well with people. Keep in mind that the terrorists did not win. In fact it caused the US to lash out and attack more. though I would rather not go too far into that subject as it holds very emotional ties to it.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I would not go into more depth on something like a terrorist attack, but anyone who says the US ultimately won is wrong. They did much more damage than they ever dreamed and we, the US, suffered terrible losses from that event. Just because we endured doesn't mean we were 'victorious.'

 

The point of the reference was to counter the reason that you can't have a conclusion because there aren't enough Jedi or Republic to defeat the True Sith. I think that is the very reason that KOTOR III would be so great. Anything else wouldn't make sense.

[True_Avery]

I understand the 9/11 comparison and actually think its being cleverly used by both of you...

 

But, this is not a serious debate forum. If you would like to continue with the 9/11 argument, please take it to PMs. If not, then try to find a less controversial and sensitive topic to relate to.

 

Thanks!

 

By the way Darth_Yuthura: Your posting has been fine, so you don't need to constantly remind people that it is your opinion at the end of posts. Just a heads up if you think I'm watching you like a hawk or something.

[Tommycat]

I would not go into more depth on something like a terrorist attack, but anyone who says the US ultimately won is wrong. They did much more damage than they ever dreamed and we, the US, suffered terrible losses from that event. Just because we endured doesn't mean we were 'victorious.'

 

The point of the reference was to counter the reason that you can't have a conclusion because there aren't enough Jedi or Republic to defeat the True Sith. I think that is the very reason that KOTOR III would be so great. Anything else wouldn't make sense.

All I'm saying is that it would be better done in exposition or a cut scene than to base a game around it. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be concluded at all. I AM however saying that it would make for an uninteresting game with that conclusion as the basis for the game. What you want for a game is basically something that could be summed up in a 2 minute cutscene. Since we would not play as Revan(because by this time he's godlike) and more likely a new character, we'd end up learning about Revan through other characters(NPC's). If we're going to do that, it hurts nothing to learn about it from others 300 years later.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Perhaps. If Revan were indeed a god, then I would agree that any K3 game would suck.

 

However, I don't think that Revan was made into a god in KOTOR II. Everything that Revan had done came more from his strength of character and leadership than anything else. "Do not think that a galaxy cannot be conquered with words." I would actually think Revan would make a perfect Jedi if he had come up with something so clever, so cunning, that he didn't need to use a lightsaber at all. That would make a better conclusion than anything TOR could possibly have with all the thousands of Jedi, millions of guns, and with all the odds stacked in the Republic's favor.

 

Yeah... I wonder how the Republic could possibly be the victors under those conditions.

[Jae Onasi]

Darth_Yuthura, I gotta ask, why are you posting on the TOR forum when you so clearly dislike the very idea of this game?

[Darth_Yuthura]

I suppose I was hoping that enough people would display their discontent for the plot's timeline that Lucasarts would be forced to change it. It may seem like a vague hope, but if enough people made it clear that they wouldn't buy TOR unless the timeline were changed, Lucasarts would have to do it. Of those who voted here, more were disappointed than those who were neutral or against it being 300 years later.

 

Besides, I like reading the inciteful comments left behind by others.

[True_Avery]

However, I don't think that Revan was made into a god in KOTOR II. Everything that Revan had done came more from his strength of character and leadership than anything else.

Nah, it came from Avelone writing Revan into a Mary Sue. Regardless of Light or Dark side was always in it to help the Republic. His massive amount of strength and leadership were given to Revan in TSL, and there it stayed.

 

"Do not think that a galaxy cannot be conquered with words." I would actually think Revan would make a perfect Jedi if he had come up with something so clever, so cunning, that he didn't need to use a lightsaber at all.

Yeah, but "I'm going to talk to you to death The Video Game" is a very uninteresting Star Wars game. Revan and Exile left, and from there we know absolutely nothing about them.

 

They have not released information on the location, status, history, etc of Revan and Exile yet. None. Nada. Zero. We don't know if they DID in fact keep a truce between the Republic and Sith for 300 years. We don't know if they turned to their tune and became Sith. We don't know if they became magical fairies and descended onto the planet of candy coated chocolate.

 

That would make a better conclusion than anything TOR could possibly have with all the thousands of Jedi, millions of guns, and with all the odds stacked in the Republic's favor.

 

Yeah... I wonder how the Republic could possibly be the victors under those conditions.

I'm going to remind you of where this is set:

 

3,500 years before Luke. What does that mean?

 

It means the republic is going to win regardless of what Revan, Exile, you, me etc do

 

Why? Because we have seen the movies. We know they are going to win. To assume otherwise is simply trying to fight fate.

 

Yes, maybe our all mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedi Revan isn't there to fix the problems for the Republic... But aren't you tired of the Mary Sue fixing all the problems? There is in fact Republic before and after Revan. Revan isn't there for 25,000 years to keep the Republic safe.

 

So, all I can assume is that the majority of the complaints are stemming from the fact we can't be our favorite mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedi. Yet, we weren't allowed to be in TSL and on hindsight most people seemed to like that game.

 

Most who are for the 300 years later often bring up that there are too few Jedi, too beat-up Republic, and that any story that comes from this is either too unbelievable or simply can't work out.

That would be a great example if this was an actual war.

 

But it has already been stated that this is a Cold War. They -did- in fact -lose- the war. That is the -entire- point of the game. The Sith came in, vastly outnumbered them, and the Jedi and Republic both lost in a landslide. Now the Jedi are attempting to bring their numbers up, and the ruined Republic military is attempting to put itself back together under the watchful eye of the new rulers.

 

They LOST.

 

There is no "There wouldn't be enough" because there Wasn't enough. The MMO is going to follow you and your steps to try and influence this war along with thousands or millions of others. If 1 Jedi can turn the tide and take over a Galaxy, why can't a Million push against an empire?

 

The Rebel alliance was vastly outnumbered and outgunned, but they won out in the end. Your example of the little guy not winning falls flat on its face when you take a look at the rest of Star Wars lore.

 

The point seems to be that you are a soldier on the lines trying to fight for your cause. You aren't a super smart, amazing, one of a kind main character. You're a soldier. That it what made WoW, Lotro, Matrix Online, and basically every other MMO ever made so popular.

 

You are an average Joe trying to do your part in a Cold War that is stacked against you.