children and the hungry demand "rights"

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

A lot of corrupt governments have made that argument to support overthrowing governments they don't like. Don't walk around saying "I've got the big stick and you'll behave now." And then condemn others for doing the same.

this is such a horrible reply to vanir saying people should keep their governments in line by becoming versed in politics and it stinks of desperation. could you perhaps stop posting insults aimed at other countries and using them as the basis for your arguments?

 

and i hate to use such a cliche phrase, but, "if pakistan jumped off a bridge, would you?"

[vanir]

Don't confuse a well deserved apolegy to Tommycat with a lack of confidence, Web Rider.

 

 

Sorry again Tommycat. I am exceedingly harsh on myself at all times and forget that I cannot go around treating others like that. There's no excuse

[Jae Onasi]

The current resolution contained numerous objectionable provisions, including inaccurate textual descriptions of underlying rights. The United States was the largest food donor in the world of international humanitarian food aid and it would continue to work towards providing food security to all. In the future, he expressed hope that the co-sponsors would work to address his delegation’s concerns, so the United States could join other countries in adopting the draft.

 

So the US wants to sign the Annexes in principal, but has objections to how it's worded. Many of the other states that signed it should have actually looked at the wording, because it may have inadvertently committed their nations to things they really couldn't do by the laws of their own countries.

 

A badly written law should not be signed, no matter how good the intentions. Re-write the law in a better manner to address the problems in wording, and I'm sure the US will be happy to sign it.

[Web Rider]

So the US wants to sign the Annexes in principal, but has objections to how it's worded. Many of the other states that signed it should have actually looked at the wording, because it may have inadvertently committed their nations to things they really couldn't do by the laws of their own countries.

 

A badly written law should not be signed, no matter how good the intentions. Re-write the law in a better manner to address the problems in wording, and I'm sure the US will be happy to sign it.

 

Finally, thank you. Laws should not be approved just because they elicit knee-jerk reactions about feeding people and saving the children.

[Tommycat]

vanir: No need to appologize. We're having a discussion. I don't take any of it personally.

 

That said...

Actually maturity is to do what you do without expecting thanks. Self respect is the thanks you get. Once you've got self respect, you'll find others thanking you for that.

As I said, We do it without expecting it. However it should be expected of the "mature" ones to thank us for the good, however they are not mature, and don't, but that doesn't and hasn't stopped us from being the top donor. That was the point I was driving home. When they are willing to recognize the ICC for things it HAS NOT done, and refuse to recognize the US for the things it HAS done, that is just plain silly. It's insulting. Even mature people do not appreciate being insulted.

[jonathan7]

To be honest the whole thing is a joke, how is Zimbabwe(an government, for example) signing up to this?

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

So the US wants to sign the Annexes in principal, but has objections to how it's worded. Many of the other states that signed it should have actually looked at the wording, because it may have inadvertently committed their nations to things they really couldn't do by the laws of their own countries.

 

A badly written law should not be signed, no matter how good the intentions. Re-write the law in a better manner to address the problems in wording, and I'm sure the US will be happy to sign it.

i'd agree with that except the link i provided gives the reasons the u.s. representative gave for opposing the measures:

 

he United States felt that the attainment of the “right to adequate food” or the “right to be free from hunger” was a goal that should be realized progressively. The current resolution contained numerous objectionable provisions, including inaccurate textual descriptions of underlying rights.

"whoops sorry about that i'm an english professor now and you didn't go into enough detail get in your revisions before monday for half credit and this whole right to not starve thing is coming up so quick i mean it's getting to be christmas i have **** to buy"

 

Speaking in explanation of vote, the representative of the United States welcomed the commitment of the United Nations and the Third Committee on issues relating to the rights of the child. The United States was equally committed to the issue and had worked to ensure that the protection of the rights of children was fully integrated into its foreign policy. However, she also expressed disappointment over the failure to make a number of minor changes that would have allowed the United States to support the draft. In particular, she referred to preambular paragraph 2, which stated that the Convention on the Rights of the Child “must constitute” the standard, and in operative paragraph 2, which might have been improved by urging States to “consider” becoming States parties to the Convention, as each State had a sovereign right to make such decisions on their own. Finally, operative paragraph 31, which recognized the contribution of the International Criminal Court in ending impunity for the most serious crimes against children, was not necessarily supported by fact, as it had not yet tried a single case in that regard.

"woah woah woah this thing doesn't have a loophole where countries can define their own standards for children's rights what the hell man"

 

those are pretty much the worst reasons ever.

[GarfieldJL]

Why? The measures do nothing, and half the nations that signed on are guilty of breaking these measures on a daily basis. Isn't it THEY who should be criticized for being hypocritial, instead of the US for simply objecting to a rule they pretty much already follow or find invasive to their nation?

 

Wow we actually agree on something.

 

This law doesn't mean jack. Nations that already follow standards that are as close as humanly possible to it will follow it, nations that have no way of implementing it will still not implment it, and nations with no intention of following it will continue with that intention. Not to mention that there's no way the UN can possibly organize a task force to go to every person in every nation and check if they're having these standards applied to them.

 

To add to it, the only one that would end up paying for this is the United States, because the other countries when push comes to shove won't chip in, heck some of them actually cause the problems.

 

Why should anyone be criticized for not signing on to something that doesn't even have any effect?

 

Correction, it would affect the United States in that it would be yet another thing we'd pay for that most of the other countries wouldn't chip in.

[Tommycat]

Wow 3 times the same thing was quoted... Are people even reading it? And jmac quoted it subtracting the remaining portion which stated that the US wanted to support it, but couldn't at this time because of the language.

 

Note: I posted this in the very first response.

Speaking in explanation of vote, the representative of the United States said that, while agreeing with the sentiment expressed in the resolution, his delegation could not support the text as drafted. The United States felt that the attainment of the “right to adequate food” or the “right to be free from hunger” was a goal that should be realized progressively. The current resolution contained numerous objectionable provisions, including inaccurate textual descriptions of underlying rights. The United States was the largest food donor in the world of international humanitarian food aid and it would continue to work towards providing food security to all. In the future, he expressed hope that the co-sponsors would work to address his delegation’s concerns, so the United States could join other countries in adopting the draft.

 

jmac

shared

Jae

 

I posted it in it's entirety so that people could judge it IN CONTEXT. Trimming out the second half changes the tone.

[Adavardes]

Correction, it would affect the United States in that it would be yet another thing we'd pay for that most of the other countries wouldn't chip in.

 

"From each according to his talent, to each according to his need." - Karl Marx

 

America has a higher percentage of millionare citizens than any other country in the world. Imagine that, we might have to pay more than other countries because WE HAVE MORE MONEY. Heaven forbid we actually have to give what is equitable to our overall gains.

 

But if we give food away, our fat ***es won't have as much, and we clearly need it, seeing as we have one of the highest obesity ratings in the world. And if kids have rights, who will run our big businesses' overseas sweatshops? Surely that would make things slightly more inconvenient for Mr. Moneybags, and his bedmate, the conservative party.

 

Feh @ this entire sham of an argument.

[GarfieldJL]

"From each according to his talent, to each according to his need." - Karl Marx

 

America has a higher percentage of millionare citizens than any other country in the world. Imagine that, we might have to pay more than other countries because WE HAVE MORE MONEY. Heaven forbid we actually have to give what is equitable to our overall gains.

 

But if we give food away, our fat asses won't have as much, and we clearly need it, seeing as we have one of the highest obesity ratings in the world. And if kids have rights, who will run our big businesses' overseas sweatshops? Surely that would make things slightly more inconvenient for Mr. Moneybags, and his bedmate, the conservative party.

 

Feh @ this entire sham of an argument.

 

Sorry but this sounds more like welfare and I'm not going to give up what I worked for to someone too lazy to actually work.

 

There is an old saying: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

[Adavardes]

Sorry but this sounds more like welfare and I'm not going to give up what I worked for to someone too lazy to actually work.

 

So people starving in Africa just don't want to work, because there are so many jobs there, and they can actually get one, being uneducated and filthy, with little to no energy whatsoever? I mean, sure, they choose not to be enslaved into the diamond mining operations, but that's more of a "I like being free" thing, something I think you'd understand, what with your beloved nation being founded on freedom and everything. Nice try generalising the situation, though, you're a true testament to your political standing, and how very little understanding about living conditions outside of Planet America that comment reflects.

 

There is an old saying: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

 

Where the hell are the fish?

[GarfieldJL]

So people starving in Africa just don't want to work, because there are so many jobs there, and they can actually get one, being uneducated and filthy, with little to no energy whatsoever? I mean, sure, they choose not to be enslaved into the diamond mining operations, but that's more of a "I like being free" thing, something I think you'd understand, what with your beloved nation being founded on freedom and everything. Nice try generalising the situation, though, you're a true testament to your political standing, and how very little understanding about living conditions outside of Planet America that comment reflects.

 

The problem with your statement concerning countries in Africa is a lot of the aid ends up in the hands of corrupt officials rather than going to the people it was intended to help. I know a lot more about the situation than you realize.

 

 

Where the hell are the fish?

 

It means you teach someone how to do something and they can feed themselves. Whether it is doing a job on their own to make money to pay for food, fishing, etc.

[Adavardes]

The problem with your statement concerning countries in Africa is a lot of the aid ends up in the hands of corrupt officials rather than going to the people it was intended to help. I know a lot more about the situation than you realize.

 

And how do you know these officials are corrupt? Have you done research into such a claim? And who said anything about giving them money? I thought this was about food.

 

It means you teach someone how to do something and they can feed themselves. Whether it is doing a job on their own to make money to pay for food, fishing, etc.

 

 

Where is the food? Where are the jobs? Where's this money you're talking about?

[GarfieldJL]

And how do you know these officials are corrupt? Have you done research into such a claim? And who said anything about giving them money? I thought this was about food.

 

They horde the food too rather than giving it to the people. Quit trying to paint the most generous country in the world as a country that doesn't do anything for others. Fact is if we're talking about money go yell at the Saudis, they have plenty of money.

[Web Rider]

Where is the food? Where are the jobs? Where's this money you're talking about?

 

While we art this inane process of asking stupid questions, define "is".

 

It's a bloody metaphor, stop being such a literalist, it means if you support a person, they'll never be able to support themselves, and that if a person learns to support themselves they won't need to depend on the aid of others.

 

 

And you're seriously asking how we know these leaders are corrupt? Are you kidding me? There are whole BOOKS on the corruption of various government officials, take 10 minutes to Google "Zimbabwe" and you'll probably find several dozen articles outlining the extent of the corruption.

[Tommycat]

And how do you know these officials are corrupt? Have you done research into such a claim?

Here Let me google that for you ok, ok I've been waiting to use that one haha

And who said anything about giving them money? I thought this was about food.

These leaders also happen to take the food intended to feed the poor, and feed their already well fed armies.

[Adavardes]

It's a bloody metaphor, stop being such a literalist, it means if you support a person, they'll never be able to support themselves, and that if a person learns to support themselves they won't need to depend on the aid of others

 

... I'm not being a literalist. I'm answering his metaphor with another metaphor. How are they supposed to learn how to support themselves when there are no jobs to be found? Who is going to give them food for a hard day's work when there really isn't any food to give? How are they supposed to get an education for a job somewhere else when there are little to no schools available, and almost no way to pay for them to go elsewhere?

 

Where are these fish this fisherman is supposedly learning to catch? I figured people here would get the subtle art of speaking in metaphor. Clearly, I was wrong. Next time, how about you treat me like the English major and author that I am, and not patronise me?

 

Also, the corruption in the African governments may be true, but there are kids in other countries starving elsewhere. World hunger is more than just Africa, but that continent tends to have the largest surplus of suffering caused by starvation. And it's not like we have to give governments the food. I'm sure there's a possible distribution system that is regulated and controlled by the UN for such matters, and if there isn't, they could surely establish one. But this isn't even about giving the food, it's about giving every human being the right to it, and the only reason America didn't sign is that the laws weren't written so they could get around them if they wanted to?

 

Whatever, I'm done with this.

[EnderWiggin]

I know a lot more about the situation than you realize.

 

 

_EW_

[Web Rider]

... I'm not being a literalist. I'm answering his metaphor with another metaphor. How are they supposed to learn how to support themselves when there are no jobs to be found?

Clearly, they make their own jobs. Homes need to be built, so materials need to be bought in, so connections need to be made with people who provide materials. There's 3 jobs right there, making connections, shipping, and building.

 

Who is going to give them food for a hard day's work when there really isn't any food to give?

They will grow their own, there's several more jobs right there. Getting seeds, planting seeds, farming crops, shipping crops, selling/trading crops.

 

How are they supposed to get an education for a job somewhere else when there are little to no schools available, and almost no way to pay for them to go elsewhere?

They will learn through doing. Sure, they may not learn about the sciences and politics and mathematics, but they'll learn, and they'll progress, and as they do, new knoweledge will be brought to them, or they will find it. And there's several more jobs right there, creating more knowledge and teaching it to others, who in turn search for more knoweledge and return it to their people.

 

Also, the corruption in the African governments may be true, but there are kids in other countries starving elsewhere.

But do you really think that the UN signed a bill to save the starving children in France? Or the US? No. Saving those kids is unpopular because it just looks like we're spoiling a rich nation. Why do people adopt black and asian babies instead of the white ones right next door? Because it's in-style to save kids who aren't white.

 

World hunger is more than just Africa, but that continent tends to have the largest surplus of suffering caused by starvation. And it's not like we have to give governments the food. I'm sure there's a possible distribution system that is regulated and controlled by the UN for such matters, and if there isn't, they could surely establish one.

Since you are an english major, I suggest you leave the real-world politics to the politics majors like myself. How do you establish a system that works in a nation that doesn't? How do you protect the UN workers from the corrupt military guys with guns? You can't, and they get killed and raped and robbed a lot. The UN does not have the power and the resources to establish such a system. And even if it does, what of the people they supply, when do we say that we have given enough, and it is their turn to stand on their own. If we ignore the corrupt government, and step into their nation, we violate our own laws about respecting the sovereignty of that nation. The solutions are not so simple as "give the food to the people."

 

But this isn't even about giving the food, it's about giving every human being the right to it, and the only reason America didn't sign is that the laws weren't written so they could get around them if they wanted to?

A "right" is something that you have within yourself to do. To speek freely, to live well, these are things you accomplish in the face of adversity. You do not have a "right to eat". You have a right to work and earn your meal. You do not have a right to "be fed". If you cannot work and earn your meal, then you do not have a right to the food on the tables of others.

 

Whatever, I'm done with this.

Quitting won't make your point any more valid.

[Jae Onasi]

OK, the community obviously has mastered the fine art of diatribe. Who knew that discussing UN resolutions encouraging food shipments to Africa could engender this kind of excitement? If you all could turn the heat down, the staff would appreciate it.

[Adavardes]

Clearly, they make their own jobs. Homes need to be built, so materials need to be bought in, so connections need to be made with people who provide materials. There's 3 jobs right there, making connections, shipping, and building.

 

Who are they making connections to that will give them supplies for free, because they don't have any money? Who's going to ship the materials to them for free, because they have no way to pay for it? How do they work when they're starving to death and can barely move, because they have no food, because they have no money to create jobs, and thusly make no money from those jobs?

 

They will grow their own, there's several more jobs right there. Getting seeds, planting seeds, farming crops, shipping crops, selling/trading crops.

 

Seeds? Tools? Nourishment so the workers don't kill themselves working the crops?

 

They will learn through doing. Sure, they may not learn about the sciences and politics and mathematics, but they'll learn, and they'll progress, and as they do, new knoweledge will be brought to them, or they will find it. And there's several more jobs right there, creating more knowledge and teaching it to others, who in turn search for more knoweledge and return it to their people.

 

How will they learn by doing if the above needs are not met?

 

 

But do you really think that the UN signed a bill to save the starving children in France? Or the US? No. Saving those kids is unpopular because it just looks like we're spoiling a rich nation. Why do people adopt black and asian babies instead of the white ones right next door? Because it's in-style to save kids who aren't white.

 

This is an opinion, and a flawed one, at that. You have no evidence to support this.

 

A "right" is something that you have within yourself to do. To speek freely, to live well, these are things you accomplish in the face of adversity. You do not have a "right to eat". You have a right to work and earn your meal. You do not have a right to "be fed". If you cannot work and earn your meal, then you do not have a right to the food on the tables of others.

 

See above statements.

[GarfieldJL]

Actually, it more has to do with incidents like:

 

And, of course, corrupt organisations rarely stop at just one kind. If you don't want to bulk up your pension by skimming the Oil-for-Food programme, don't worry, whatever your bag, the UN can find somewhere that suits - in West Africa, it's Sex-for-Food, with aid workers demanding sexual services from locals as young as four; in Cambodia, it's drug dealing; in Kenya, it's the refugee extortion racket; in the Balkans, sex slaves.

-- Telegraph.co.uk

 

And:

The former head of the UN's oil-for-food programme for Iraq has been charged with bribery and conspiracy to commit fraud.

 

 

Benon Sevan, 69, who was the programme's executive director, has been charged by US prosecutors. Ephraim Nadler, 79, of Manhattan, faces the same charges, issued by a New York court. Mr Nadler is a brother-in-law of the former UN secretary general Boutros Boutros-Ghali.

-- UN Oil for Food Chief on Corruption Charge

[Tommycat]

Also, the corruption in the African governments may be true, but there are kids in other countries starving elsewhere. World hunger is more than just Africa, but that continent tends to have the largest surplus of suffering caused by starvation. And it's not like we have to give governments the food. I'm sure there's a possible distribution system that is regulated and controlled by the UN for such matters, and if there isn't, they could surely establish one.

Oi, so you want me to google corrupt governments around the world... It just might crash google lol.

 

Fact is that many of the nations receiving food aid also have a poor record on government corruption(possible correlation?). And the UN does distribute to an extent. However they are not a military power in and of themselves, so if the trucks get taken by the government, they can do little about it except cut off aid to that country.... Oops guess they have to starve the people, or start a war... Aren't those supposed to be bad?

 

But this isn't even about giving the food, it's about giving every human being the right to it, and the only reason America didn't sign is that the laws weren't written so they could get around them if they wanted to?

 

No, this measure does nothing. Did you even look at the countries that signed on? Chances are they didn't even read it. I haven't read the full Annexes. I think maybe we need to see what language is in them before we pass judgement. I mean what if there is a paragraph or section that demands the US give even more. I would think the US being the largest donor by double the next closest member(that being the EC which includes several countries) kinda gives them a reason to have concerns about the language of a "right to food" initiative.

[mur'phon]

Normal is acting in self interest.

 

Agreed, though I tend to believe that most rich countries stand to gain from helping out the poor/opressed people of the world.

 

Many countries helps, a lot, the world generally gives them gripe for not helping MORE.

 

Fixed:D

 

Then they praise how much they're helping, which is considerably less

 

Disagreed, unless you mean in raw numbers.

 

If you can't cough up so much as "hey, that really helped" I don't see why buying your love by helping poor nations is going to make you any better friends than if I do nothing.

 

Actually, you often get a thank you, at least from SSAfricans. Still, I agree that you seem to be the scapegoat in many places of the world, despite not deserving it. As for how it helps you, well, as it helps some places and others not, the rational thing would be to move the aid to where you get more bang for your bucks.