Israeli/Palestinian Conflict MEGATHREAD

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Artillery shells in and of themselves are not accurate, but they are a lot easier to predict where they land because they tend to be fired from something that is not moving or at most moving extremely slowly compared to an aircraft. It isn't 100% accurate by a longshot, but again projectile weapons have been around for a lot longer than bombs being dropped from planes.

 

 

I'm not exactly a munitions expert, but I'm familiar with a lot of the variables. Assuming someone didn't get their math wrong (which has happened), or another variable (like a gust of wind) you can predict with relative certainty where a shell will land.

 

If you're referring to the 2006 incident where Israel is accused of a shell killing members of a Palestinian Family, what happened in that incident is still in dispute. As to whether it was an Israeli shell, or if the Israeli shell hit hidden munitions and it was the munitions that caused the death and injuries.

 

Anyways, CBS over the past week has proven that it has absolutely no credibility when it comes to Israel. Human Rights Watch has a similar problem, as does Amnesty International.

 

 

-- National Review

 

The problem with the idea that Isreal is out to kill civilians, is that they have no motive to do so.

that's one of the most pathetic articles i've ever read. he cites not only an organization that he is the editor of, but an organization that explicitly states that its sole purpose is to criticize ngos who criticize israel and is run by current or former israeli officials.

 

sorry, but israel's human rights violations are corroborated by both israeli and non-israeli sources.

 

and you never addressed the fact that israel is using flechette shells, which because of their very nature are fired by those who don't care who they kill.

[GarfieldJL]

that's one of the most pathetic articles i've ever read. he cites not only an organization that he is the editor of, but an organization that explicitly states that its sole purpose is to criticize ngos who criticize israel and is run by current or former israeli officials.

 

Yeah, and a conservative source pointed out for full disclosure his ties to the issue... Something I rarely see liberal sources do, or they mislabel them.

 

sorry, but israel's human rights violations are corroborated by both israeli and non-israeli sources.

 

Many of those "abuses" stem from the fact that they have to worry about people walking in with bombs strapped to them to blow themselves up. Seriously anyone that tries to use a child as a weapon of war deserves no respect.

 

and you never addressed the fact that israel is using flechette shells, which because of their very nature are fired by those who don't care who they kill.

 

 

What type of flechett weapon are we referring to, because some of these weapons are designed to be used in situations to try to minimize explosive damage. I'm going to go out on a limb here and point out that we are probably not getting the entire story here.

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/cbu-107.htm

[jrrtoken]

What type of flechett weapon are we referring to, because some of these weapons are designed to be used in situations to try to minimize explosive damage. I'm going to go out on a limb here and point out that we are probably not getting the entire story here.

This, a 4cm flechette, packed into 120mm shells:

 

Either way, it does not what size or type of flechette it is, flechettes are flechettes; they're all made for one purpose, to kill as many people as possible in a certain area.

[GarfieldJL]

This, a 4cm flechette, packed into 120mm shells:

 

Either way, it does not what size or type of flechette it is, flechettes are flechettes; they're all made for one purpose, to kill as many people as possible in a certain area.

 

So is an explosive device, it's a weapon of war, depending on how it is used, it can cause less death and destruction, than a traditional bomb from an airplane, which could cause buildings to collapse fires to break out, etc.

[jrrtoken]

So is an explosive device, it's a weapon of war, depending on how it is used, it can cause less death and destruction, than a traditional bomb from an airplane, which could cause buildings to collapse fires to break out, etc.

Yes, but bombs are often designed to destroy structures, which is something darts can't do. Small, pointy objects are more of less suited to puncture gelatinous, flesh-like material. Like humans.

 

And thanks for propping up another strawman and ignoring my point entirely.

[GarfieldJL]

Yes, but bombs are often designed to destroy structures, which is something darts can't do. Small, pointy objects are more of less suited to puncture gelatinous, flesh-like material. Like humans.

 

And thanks for propping up another strawman and ignoring my point entirely.

 

If you'd pay attention you'd realize that I didn't ignore your point, I countered it and you just made my point.

 

A flechette is not designed to cause explosive damage, that means if you have a shell fired into an interior location the walls of the building can protect people outside the building from injury, building collapse, etc. thus minimizing collateral damage.

[jrrtoken]

If you'd pay attention you'd realize that I didn't ignore your point, I countered it and you just made my point.

 

A flechette is not designed to cause explosive damage, that means if you have a shell fired into an interior location the walls of the building can protect people outside the building from injury, building collapse, etc. thus minimizing collateral damage.

WHAT??? Flechettes still cause an extreme amount of damage by going through peoples bodies, causing them to bleed to death. I don't care if it's not explosive, it's still a weapon, and an extremely inhumane one, to boot. Trying to brush it off as "non-explosive" doesn't mean anything, as it's still designed to KILL people.

 

Dammit, I need a drink. Where's my whiskey?

[EnderWiggin]

Yeah, and a conservative source pointed out for full disclosure his ties to the issue... Something I rarely see liberal sources do, or they mislabel them.

 

The honesty doesn't negate the bias.

 

What type of flechett weapon are we referring to, because some of these weapons are designed to be used in situations to try to minimize explosive damage. I'm going to go out on a limb here and point out that we are probably not getting the entire story here.

*limb breaks, garfy falls to alligators*

 

If you'd pay attention you'd realize that I didn't ignore your point, I countered it and you just made my point.

 

No, you countered a point that doesn't really exist, thus the accurate labeling of 'strawman.'

 

_EW_

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Many of those "abuses" stem from the fact that they have to worry about people walking in with bombs strapped to them to blow themselves up. Seriously anyone that tries to use a child as a weapon of war deserves no respect.

 

 

sounds good to me. how about we start applying that policy to both sides of the conflict?

[GarfieldJL]

WHAT??? Flechettes still cause an extreme amount of damage by going through peoples bodies, causing them to bleed to death. I don't care if it's not explosive, it's still a weapon, and an extremely inhumane one, to boot. Trying to brush it off as "non-explosive" doesn't mean anything, as it's still designed to KILL people.

 

So does any weapon that fires projectiles at high speeds, seriously you're all upset about Israel when they use a weapon that happens to be lethal, yet you're not upset when the Palestinians blow themselves up with bombs packed with nails, ball bearings whatever. At least with the Israelis the civilian deaths caused by their side is an accident.

 

Dammit, I need a drink. Where's my whiskey?

 

Okay...

 

The honesty doesn't negate the bias.

 

But the honesty also gives them more credibility than a source that has a stake in the situation and does its best to hide that fact.

 

Seriously, it's a weapon, that can kill people, seriously folks it's a war people die in war, unless you're saying that the Palestinians can use whatever and Israel must use Nerf weapons...

[jrrtoken]

So does any weapon that fires projectiles at high speeds, seriously you're all upset about Israel when they use a weapon that happens to be lethal, yet you're not upset when the Palestinians blow themselves up with bombs packed with nails, ball bearings whatever. At least with the Israelis the civilian deaths caused by their side is an accident.

So it's perfectly okay for Israel to stoop to Hamas' level and use deadly weapons against civilians? But I though Israel was the good guys...

Seriously, it's a weapon, that can kill people, seriously folks it's a war people die in war, unless you're saying that the Palestinians can use whatever and Israel must use Nerf weapons...

You're insisting that the Israelis can fight fire with fire, countering terrorism with total war. That makes the IDF look just as bad as Hamas.

[GarfieldJL]

So it's perfectly okay for Israel to stoop to Hamas' level and use deadly weapons against civilians? But I though Israel was the good guys...

 

It's called where you're shooting, the Israelis are using weapons to hit weapons depots, and valid targets. They are not trying to hit civilians.

 

You're insisting that the Israelis can fight fire with fire, countering terrorism with total war. That makes the IDF look just as bad as Hamas.

 

How would you like 3,000+ rockets fired into your country? At least Israel does its best to avoid hitting civilians, Hamas tries to target civilians deliberately.

 

Or are you denying now that they hide their weapons in schools, and other locations, and are you also now denying that they try to indoctrinate children so that they can use them as walking bombs.

 

Seriously, because there is a very clear difference here, and you just condemn Israel for a kid accidentally getting injured or killed, yet I have yet to see any condemnation here of Hamas using children as walking bombs! (With Jae being an exception)

 

That's why Hamas is evil, because they use children in such a manner.

[jrrtoken]

It's called where you're shooting, the Israelis are using weapons to hit weapons depots, and valid targets. They are not trying to hit civilians.

Then why is the IDF using flechettes in a heavily populated area, a weapon designed to kill as many as possible in a wide area?

How would you like 3,000+ rockets fired into your country? At least Israel does its best to avoid hitting civilians, Hamas tries to target civilians deliberately.

See above.

Or are you denying now that they hide their weapons in schools, and other locations, and are you also now denying that they try to indoctrinate children so that they can use them as walking bombs.

Why do you think they hide the weapons in a school, or a hospital? They know that the IDF will target them, and the IDF knows that they are populated with civilians. Hamas does this to further their cause, by showing the world that Israel will target and kill children to eradicate the enemy. Your statement completely demolishes your point.

 

Might I also add that you've repeated this argument countless times in this thread, and people have presented you with proof that undermines your reasoning.

[GarfieldJL]

If it wasn't for the IDF, Saddam would have had Nuclear Weapons, Israel is the country that derailed his nuke program.

 

Israel has managed to make peace with a few of its neighbors, Hamas calls for their annihilation, there isn't a moral equivalency here. Israel has shown that it can make peace through nonviolent means, Hamas wants to annihilate every Israeli down to the last baby.

 

Why do you think they hide the weapons in a school, or a hospital? They know that the IDF will target them, and the IDF knows that they are populated with civilians. Hamas does this to further their cause, by showing the world that Israel will target and kill children to eradicate the enemy. Your statement completely demolishes your point.

 

And if they don't those weapons will be used against Israeli civilians.

[Astor]

If it wasn't for the IDF, Saddam would have had Nuclear Weapons, Israel is the country that derailed his nuke program.[/Quote]

 

Of course, 'cause Israel was the only country in the world who could stop him.

 

Israel has managed to make peace with a few of its neighbors, Hamas' militant wing calls for their annihilation, there isn't a moral equivalency here. Israel has shown that it can make peace through nonviolent means, Hamas wants to annihilate every Israeli down to the last baby.

 

Emphasis mine.

[jrrtoken]

If it wasn't for the IDF, Saddam would have had Nuclear Weapons, Israel is the country that derailed his nuke program.

Thanks for bringing up something that isn't even related to the subject.

Israel has managed to make peace with a few of its neighbors, Hamas calls for their annihilation, there isn't a moral equivalency here. Israel has shown that it can make peace through nonviolent means, Hamas wants to annihilate every Israeli down to the last baby.

Just stop... please just stop.

[jonathan7]

Study your history, you'll find that it was Great Britain's land, the UN and UK were effectively shamed into the creation of Israel, I quite frankly don't even blame the Israelis for wanting to get out of Europe.

 

Shamed, shamed? You do realise Britain did take in loads of Jews, like I dunno, Albert Einstein, and stopped the Holocaust. Why isn't the States in the shamed section? And how is the UN in that, when it didn't even exsist until after the events of the Holocaust?

 

Are there fundamentalists that are Jewish, yes, but we're not currently talking about them are we.

 

You just display here no knowledge of Israeli politics.

 

Furthermore, if we keep going on and on about whose dad did what to your dad or grandfather, all that is going to happen is more hate.

 

So the Holocaust isn't relevant? Please make your mind up, on the one hand you bring up WW2, but then don't want Israel's history to be brought up?

 

Oh you mean like that kid that was supposedly shot by Israelis in 2000, that was the incident that ended up in a courtroom.

 

What are you on about, and what relevance does it have to the discussion, stop throwing up smoke screens.

 

Furthermore, if there can't be peace between Palestinians and Israelis, why is the West Bank being left alone, and why is Fatah not making any attacks on Israel.

 

*smacks head* (my own before anyone takes that the wrong way) I'd hardly call the situation there peace, but clearly your more of an expert than me, having been there.

 

Your supposition is in error bigtime because:

1. Israel has made peace with Jordan.
   
2. Israel has made peace with Egypt.
   
3. Israel is on good terms with Turkey.
   

 

If they are at peace why is it you can't get into Jordan or Egypt if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport?

 

Israel was enemies with Jordan and Egypt yet they have made peace.

 

This is pertinant to the discussion how? I wasn't under the impression that Israel had kicked either of their peoples off their land.

 

Israel has a record of being willing to sit down and try to work things out peacefully, Hamas' wants the total destruction of Israel.

 

Neither Israel or Hamas will compromise, which is what is needed for a settlement.

 

Jesus did not mean for you to sit back and let people try their best to annihilate you. If a child hit me, would I hit them back would really depend on a number of factors, a small child I certainly wouldn't. A teenager, whom could actually potentially cause me physical harm, I would fight back.

 

Have you actually read the Bible? Jesus let the Romans kill him, I'd say that was sitting back and letting people annihilate you.

 

Your comparison though is like comparing apples to oranges, they are two different things, and Hamas is not a group of children it is a group made up of homicidal maniacs.

 

Clearly analogies are pointless, but I'll offer a small defence of mine, the Palestinians, maybe able to hurt Israel but they can't do anything major to her.

 

jonathan, you need to have the situation relatively stable first

 

Blowing people up rarely does anything to stabilize a situation.

 

not having people doing their best to kill you. Personally, if I could and could get the parents of kids permission and ensure the kids don't have bombs strapped to them, I would have the Palestinian kids have classes in Israel until their new schools are built.

 

No arguments there.

 

Again you're comparing apples and oranges. Hamas is not Northern Ireland, they don't believe they get 50 beautiful virgins to serve them if they die killing infidels. You had a group of people with a religious dispute and wanting independence, but they weren't as fanatical as what Hamas is.

 

I love how you are conveniently ignoring how firing rockets and targetting civilians is the same in both instances. Suicide bombings are just an added complication; I would think however both groups were seemingly determined.

 

So you do admit the virgins thing is there, I've actually had to read an English translation of the Quran (sp?) for a Medieval History course, I just can't remember the number (I thought it was 50 but the point is that it is there). Furthermore having met a single individual from a group of people doesn't make you an expert.

 

I've read the entire Qu'ran thanks, and I don't recall ever denying the number of virgins, I've also had conversations with Islamists extremists (these things happen when you travel as much as I do, and to be fair the guys were very hospitable), were I defended America despite them having guns, so don't even begin to attempt to talk to me on this subject.

 

Wouldn't happen and no I wouldn't be happy, yes I'd want it back, but there are lines I will not cross.

 

Yeah right, all your arguments previously say otherwise.

 

And what of the suicide bombers which is the reason for the construction of the wall in the first place.

 

If Israel wanted to build a wall on her borders I would of had no complaints... They didn't however do that, they just created even more people who wanted to blow themselves up.

 

I see your article and I'm going raise you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers

 

Furthermore:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

 

You are just so plain biased it doesn't matter what is said you can't see anything that goes against what you think.

 

Using children in such a manner is inexcusable

 

NO-ONE IN THREAD IS DISAGREEING WITH YOU, GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD

 

you complain about the Israelis being concerned about Palestinian kids, well wouldn't you if Hamas for instance has a habit of strapping bombs to kids and have them blow themselves up or the bomb is triggered remotely. Now as far as I know Fatah has stopped this practice, but Hamas continues to use children in such a manner.

 

Why is it so hard for you realise I don't agree with Hamas or support them in anyway? Why can't you comprehend that I don't agree with Hamas, but Israel's actions aren't going to solve anything FACT - I'd bring the Einstein quote up again, but there's little point, you show your colours by trying to argue against it.

 

Play nice please, you know the rules better than me. - mimartin

 

Sorry, won't happen again - j7

[GarfieldJL]

Shamed, shamed? You do realise Britain did take in loads of Jews, like I dunno, Albert Einstein, and stopped the Holocaust. Why isn't the States in the shamed section? And how is the UN in that, when it didn't even exsist until after the events of the Holocaust?

 

Look up who were members of the United Nations when it was first formed, and just who started the fight when Israel first became a country.

 

You just display here no knowledge of Israeli politics.

 

I probably know a bit more than you think.

 

 

So the Holocaust isn't relevant? Please make your mind up, on the one hand you bring up WW2, but then don't want Israel's history to be brought up?

 

No, the Holocaust is relevant for two reasons, and I never said history wasn't relevant, but the anti-Israeli propaganda is nothing more than garbage.

Reasons the Holocaust is relevant:

1. Why do you think the Israeli people didn't want to be in Europe?
   
2. They are very protective because they were nearly annihilated, and for them it's never again.
   

 

 

What are you on about, and what relevance does it have to the discussion, stop throwing up smoke screens.

 

Okay why don't you look up the story: "The boy who cried Wolf" that is a perfect example of why my pointing out a problem in news coverage is relevant.

 

*smacks head* (my own before anyone takes that the wrong way) I'd hardly call the situation there peace, but clearly your more of an expert than me, having been there.

 

While I realize it's still rather bumpy over there, the fact is that there haven't been any serious incidents concerning the West Bank that has made it on the news lately.

 

 

If they are at peace why is it you can't get into Jordan or Egypt if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport?

 

I'm going to have to look that statement up, because I'm not sure that is accurate, however peace doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get together for a luncheon. There is still a lot of wounds that are healing, the point is though that they are not shooting at each other, and are able to talk things through rather than shooting at each other.

 

 

This is pertinant to the discussion how? I wasn't under the impression that Israel had kicked either of their peoples off their land.

 

Technically Israel did in the Six Day war, Egypt got back most of the land that Israel took (which most of it was Egyptian land to begin with, exception of Gaza strip which Israel kept), they refused to return the West Bank to the control of Jordan (which they had taken from the Palestinians). The point is both countries made peace with Israel.

 

The point is Israel has talked with and made peace with countries in the past, so they have shown they are willing to use diplomacy. Hamas is calling for the total annihilation of every Israeli down to the last child. You can't negotiate with someone whom is bent on your total annihilation.

 

Neither Israel or Hamas will compromise, which is what is needed for a settlement.

 

And why should Israel believe anything Hamas says, they are a group that has publicly called for their total annihilation. Remember Hitler called for the total annihilation of the Jewish People.

 

Have you actually read the Bible? Jesus let the Romans kill him, I'd say that was sitting back and letting people annihilate you.

 

If you continue to read the scripture you'd see Jesus also rose from the dead.

 

Clearly analogies are pointless, but I'll offer a small defence of mine, the Palestinians, maybe able to hurt Israel but they can't do anything major to her.

 

3000+ rockets isn't potentially dangerous, the fact there haven't been as many casualties as there could be is a miracle.

 

Blowing people up rarely does anything to stabilize a situation.

 

Which is why Israel has been trying to be ass accurate as possible.

 

 

No arguments there.

 

Well glad we agree on something.

 

 

I love how you are conveniently ignoring how firing rockets and targetting civilians is the same in both instances. Suicide bombings are just an added complication; I would think however both groups were seemingly determined.

 

No one side is targetting civilians and hiding behind civilians, the other is trying to hit the people responsible while trying to minimize civilian casualties. There isn't a moral equivalency here.

 

I've read the entire Qu'ran thanks, and I don't recall ever denying the number of virgins, I've also had conversations with Islamists extremists (these things happen when you travel as much as I do, and to be fair the guys were very hospitable), were I defended America despite them having guns, so don't even begin to attempt to talk to me on this subject.

 

I'm thinking your opinion of extremism and mine are different, I don't care about the people that just say things, I care about the ones strapping bombs to their chests and blowing themselves up. I am concerned about the extremism taught in mosques.

 

And seriously, don't try to pull that don't talk to me on that subject cause you're an expert garbage again, I know quite a bit more about this than you realize.

 

 

If Israel wanted to build a wall on her borders I would of had no complaints... They didn't however do that, they just created even more people who wanted to blow themselves up.

 

Do you even know the variables that go into building structures, and do you know why the wall was built in the first place.

 

The fault lays with the radicals, if there weren't suicide bombings Israel wouldn't be building the wall, and they have a tendency to not want to have to fight on their soil, because at that point they have nowhere to fall back, no early warning.

 

 

NO-ONE IN THREAD IS DISAGREEING WITH YOU, GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD

 

Really? I've seen people condemn Israel, but only Jae, myself and maybe another conservative that entered the fray condemn Hamas. The things you condemn Israel for only happens because Hamas hides behind civilians and fires weapons while hiding behind civilians.

 

 

Why is it so hard for you realise I don't agree with Hamas or support them in anyway? Why can't you comprehend that I don't agree with Hamas, but Israel's actions aren't going to solve anything FACT - I'd bring the Einstein quote up again, but there's little point, you show your colours by trying to argue against it.

 

Well the reason I don't believe it is because of your statements, you have yet to acknowledge that most of the civilian casualties are due to Hamas hiding behind Civilians deliberately. You've been acting like Israel has been targetting civilians for fun!

Play nice please. -mimartin

[Adavardes]

Really? I've seen people condemn Israel, but only Jae, myself and maybe another conservative that entered the fray condemn Hamas. The things you condemn Israel for only happens because Hamas hides behind civilians and fires weapons while hiding behind civilians.

 

I find it funny how you always name Jae as your support, but in reality, she's not at all. Insofar as I've been lead to believe, Jae and I agree on a fundamental truth of Israel/Palestine. That both are at fault for this war. Israel for using overkill and attempting to wipe out Hamas, and Hamas for continuing to perpetuate the hate that Israel has shown them. They're both acting like spoiled children, and both of them are equally at fault.

 

I'll even quote Jae, if that's what it takes to get it through to you.

[mimartin]

I believe there is some confusion here on the difference between feeling sympathy for the Palestinian people and supporting Hamas.

[EnderWiggin]

Really? I've seen people condemn Israel, but only Jae, myself and maybe another conservative that entered the fray condemn Hamas.

 

We all condemn Hamas, but we don't condemn the Palestinians, whereas you do both.

 

_EW_

[mur'phon]

The point is Israel has talked with and made peace with countries in the past, so they have shown they are willing to use diplomacy. Hamas is calling for the total annihilation of every Israeli down to the last child. You can't negotiate with someone whom is bent on your total annihilation.

 

PLO (now: Fatah) had pretty much the same stance on Israel(and they didn't have a much diferent view on the Palestinians), yet they negotiated, which, in the end, seems to have achieved at least something. Hamas might well give up their stance if they are offered something in return. Right now, people are trying to make peace betwen Palestinie and Israel while ignoring the elected palestinian leaders(Hamas), which seems unlikely to bring any lasting deal.

 

While I realize it's still rather bumpy over there, the fact is that there haven't been any serious incidents concerning the West Bank that has made it on the news lately.

 

Define serious incidents, people are still stuck in checkpoint hell, still have an almost impossible time getting construction permits, and still have to deal with settlers in their concreete forts.

 

And why should Israel believe anything Hamas says, they are a group that has publicly called for their total annihilation.

 

Because if they don't do their part in a deal, Israel will take revenge. The same reason why Israel might stick to a deal, though Hamas can't do as much damage. That, and if Hamas or Israel ever agrees to a deal, I'd asume it was mutually benefical, and so neither Hamas or Israel have much incentive to break it.

 

3000+ rockets isn't potentially dangerous, the fact there haven't been as many casualties as there could be is a miracle.

 

Not really, a quassam rocket is possibly the simplest, least powerfull, and least acurate rocket in existence. Sometimes, they even miss the town they are targetet at. Add the fact that Israel have an early warning system for rockets, and there is little surprise that the casualties are so low. I'm with J7 on this one, the damage caused is negible when you look at the damage caused to Palestine.

 

I care about the ones strapping bombs to their chests and blowing themselves up. I am concerned about the extremism taught in mosques.

 

How about those who erect ilegal settlements, "encourage" arabs to emigrate, use their positions in the state to make life dificult for arabs, and supports parties who support anexation of palestinian territories?

 

The fault lays with the radicals, if there weren't suicide bombings Israel wouldn't be building the wall, and they have a tendency to not want to have to fight on their soil, because at that point they have nowhere to fall back, no early warning.

 

Yet the wall is built on palestinian land, cutting towns in two, and leaving people separated from their work, becomming part of checkpoint hell. It also leave large areas around the wall a no-go zone, meaning even more land is lost. Do I blame the radicals for the wall? Yes, but mainly those on the Israeli side.

[jonathan7]

Garfield, so you don't attempt to infuriate me further be assuming anything of what I think, here's is exactly what I think. I think Hamas is wrong to bomb Israel, I think Hamas is wrong to target civilians. What I do know is Hamas will consider it a victory if it can still fire rockets at Israel; which they will be able to do unless the Israelis decide to kill everyone in Gaza.

 

As such Israel's military action is futile, as it cannot stop Hamas firing rockets into Israel, and furthermore because of the collateral damage it will create future generations of terrorists. As such a different way to stop the rockets being fired must be sort.

 

Now, compromise is the watch word here, because neither the Israeli's nor the Palestinians are going to get what they want. Israel has provoked the Palestinians by settling in lands they said were for the Palestinians, the really sad things, is often those settlements tend to be where Israelis and Palestinians live side by side.

 

But the extremist elements on both sides don't want that. The Israeli hard liners want all of Israel for themselves; and they are a significant vioce in Israeli politics, while the Palestinian hard-liners want to kill all the Israeli's - these two groups cause the majority of the problems. And given both are fundementalists, I find it hard to see how peace will ever come about, but yours and Israel's current policy will do nothing but breed future generations of terrorists.

 

Furthermore, I fail to see how you think it will achieve anything else. Finally if you want to know why I get so irritated on this subject is because it is *MY* friends, who get blown up (both Jewish and Israeli, and indeed one of my friends parents has been killed in the conflict (Israeli for the record). Neither is it your friends, who have a very sick child, who has to receive very expensive medical treatment because the Israel's refuse to let them into Israel for hospital treatment, so they rely on my parents to pay for their medicine (and it's transport to them).

 

Look up who were members of the United Nations when it was first formed, and just who started the fight when Israel first became a country.

 

I fail to see how an organisation that was formed after WW2 could possibly be shamed by the Holocaust which seems to be your intimation. So you'll have to explain that to me. Furthermore it's a shame the UN plans for Jerusalem to be an international city didn't pan out - who's fault was that?

 

No, the Holocaust is relevant for two reasons, and I never said history wasn't relevant, but the anti-Israeli propaganda is nothing more than garbage.

Reasons the Holocaust is relevant:

 

GarfieldJL, do you even know what happened at the formation of the Israeli state? Unless your going to tell me every history book I've ever read (including Israeli ones) is incorrect, the formation of Israel is not a nice affair. You told me that was irrelevant, as it happened to 'Fathers and Grandfathers' (which is more relevant than the Holocaust, seeing as it wasn't the Palestinians who tried to exterminate the Jews).

 

Why do you think the Israeli people didn't want to be in Europe?

 

Have I ever said I didn't understand that the Jews would want their own land after what happened in Europe? But I fail to see how that gives them the right to throw others off their land.

 

[*]They are very protective because they were nearly annihilated, and for them it's never again.

 

I fail to see how the Palestinians will ever be able to do what Hitler did, they kill more of themselves than the Israeli's ever do.

 

Have I ever said I didn't understand that the Jews would want their own land after what happened in Europe?

 

Okay why don't you look up the story: "The boy who cried Wolf" that is a perfect example of why my pointing out a problem in news coverage is relevant.

 

Garfield, I don't give a monkeys about News coverage, as I think most people have an agenda here, and I also think most people don't have the first clue about the situation.

 

While I realize it's still rather bumpy over there, the fact is that there haven't been any serious incidents concerning the West Bank that has made it on the news lately.

 

I haven't heard anything in the News about North Korea recently, so I suppose that means its all sunny and smiles currently?

 

I'm going to have to look that statement up, because I'm not sure that is accurate, however peace doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get together for a luncheon. There is still a lot of wounds that are healing, the point is though that they are not shooting at each other, and are able to talk things through rather than shooting at each other.

 

So you've already decided the answer before looking it up.... You'll review a whole load of sources until you find the one that supports what you think already. And note, most of my thought formation is having travelled a lot, and from personal experience observation, and from cold hard facts. I rarely have ever referenced the news in the majority of my posts.

 

“If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason to act in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.”

 

Technically Israel did in the Six Day war, Egypt got back most of the land that Israel took (which most of it was Egyptian land to begin with, exception of Gaza strip which Israel kept), they refused to return the West Bank to the control of Jordan (which they had taken from the Palestinians). The point is both countries made peace with Israel.

 

This answers my point how?

 

The point is Israel has talked with and made peace with countries in the past, so they have shown they are willing to use diplomacy. Hamas is calling for the total annihilation of every Israeli down to the last child. You can't negotiate with someone whom is bent on your total annihilation.

 

Hamas can't annihilate Israel, regardless of what they say.

 

And why should Israel believe anything Hamas says, they are a group that has publicly called for their total annihilation.

 

Well if they can't believe anything Hamas says why would the believe them that they want to annihilate them?

 

Remember Hitler called for the total annihilation of the Jewish People.

 

Hitler was in charge of one of the most powerful empires in the world... The Palestinians can't even form a government :|

 

If you continue to read the scripture you'd see Jesus also rose from the dead.

 

*Shakes head* I fail to see how this possibly answers my point. Jesus said turn the other cheek, and LET (if you believe the Bible) the Romans and Pharisees kill him. So here's a guy who according to the Bible is the Son of God, and has all power on heaven and earth given to him, and I fail to see at any point did he fight back, when he was being crucified. His resurrection has nothing to do with my point.

 

3000+ rockets isn't potentially dangerous, the fact there haven't been as many casualties as there could be is a miracle.

 

No, it has more to do with the fact, a blind old lady with BB-Gun is more accurate than those Missiles.

 

Which is why Israel has been trying to be ass accurate as possible.

 

Which I'm sure is of great comfort when you children get blown up.

 

No one side is targetting civilians and hiding behind civilians, the other is trying to hit the people responsible while trying to minimize civilian casualties. There isn't a moral equivalency here.

 

If you were trying to minimize casualties you wouldn't shoot a weapon at all.

 

I'm thinking your opinion of extremism and mine are different, I don't care about the people that just say things, I care about the ones strapping bombs to their chests and blowing themselves up. I am concerned about the extremism taught in mosques.

 

Garfield, I love how you assume so much, these guys were extremists, and had we not had the connections we do in the area, we would of been in a lot of trouble. And I made everyone considerably nervous by arguing with them.

 

And seriously, don't try to pull that don't talk to me on that subject cause you're an expert garbage again, I know quite a bit more about this than you realize.

 

*sigh*

 

Do you even know the variables that go into building structures, and do you know why the wall was built in the first place.

 

Yes I know why the wall was built thanks, I fail to see how that effects my friends who are peaceful, and have had their lively hood ruined.

 

The fault lays with the radicals, if there weren't suicide bombings Israel wouldn't be building the wall, and they have a tendency to not want to have to fight on their soil, because at that point they have nowhere to fall back, no early warning.

 

I didn't say Israel couldn't build the wall, she should of built it in her lands, I'm not interested in building mechanics beccause commont sense tells me this; the Great Wall of China, built with much less stable and advanced building techniques was built over far less stable terrain than Israel's wall.

 

Really? I've seen people condemn Israel, but only Jae, myself and maybe another conservative that entered the fray condemn Hamas. The things you condemn Israel for only happens because Hamas hides behind civilians and fires weapons while hiding behind civilians.

 

I have condemned Hamas, the difference is your so pro-Israel, I'm arguing against your position, which is entirely different to agreeing with Hamas.

 

Well the reason I don't believe it is because of your statements, you have yet to acknowledge that most of the civilian casualties are due to Hamas hiding behind Civilians deliberately. You've been acting like Israel has been targetting civilians for fun!

 

When have I acted as if Israel is targeting civilians for fun? What I do know is Israel has killed far more Palestinian Civilians than Hamas has killed Israeli Civilians.

 

I will end with a website I quoted earlier, its an Israeli Human Rights Watch in Gaza website; http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp - its Israeli and it records the Israeli human rights abuses in the Occupied Territories. Though I suppose it's full of liberal bias, anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic?

[EnderWiggin]

I haven't heard anything in the News about North Korea recently, so I suppose that means its all sunny and smiles currently?

 

Don't forget Pakistan.

His resurrection has nothing to do with my point.

Agreed; not only does His Resurrection have nothing to do with J7's point, it doesn't make a point itself. It is, in fact, pointless to this analogy.

No, it has more to do with the fact, a blind old lady with BB-Gun is more accurate than those Missiles.

 

_EW_

[jonathan7]

Well, here's a reminder;

Just a reminder:

5. Repeatedly posting the same thing: This refers specifically to repeating the same point over and over in a way that becomes irritating, without an attempt to clarify a point or to contribute to the conversation. This should not be construed to mean that you are required to answer someone else's questions. If it's the same argument and doesn't contribute to the discussion, the post may be edited or deleted, and the poster may receive an infraction.[/Quote]

Per Jae’s reminder the other day and my deletion of someone’s post for this violation, we will be enforcing this rule. I had hoped both incidents made it clear that this rule will be enforced. Continued repeating the same argument will not be tolerated. If someone did not accept the argument the first time, they are not likely to change their minds with it being repeated over and over. Either accept that fact and move on or find different evidence they will accept. However, there is no rule in Kavar or this forum that they have to agree with you.

 

If you would like to report this rules violation, please include where the argument is repeated from in the remarks.

 

Furthermore, those from the UK consider it extremely inflammatory that we (previous generations) are some how guilty for the Holocaust.