Death Star vs Star Forge?

[Allronix]

If I were in charge of the Sith, and had to pick? the Star Forge wins hands-down. While it cannot match the Death Star in sheer kaboom, the Death Star is limited by only being able to hit one target, and be in one place at a time. Meanwhile, the Star Forge can crank out huge fleets, all the better for striking many targets at once, or suffocating the space lanes. Far more useful for the big picture.

 

Also, there didn't seem to be any two-meter exhaust ports or equivilent therof in the Rakatan design. The closest were the stabilizers, which took several capital ships to take out.

[Lord of Hunger]

What's to stop Sidious or Vader from pulling a Revan and ripping the language from their mind ? Or they could lie like Revan did and say they want to destroy it thus having the rakatan open it for them. Or they could tunnel their way underneath into the catacombs... I also think your giving the inquisitors the common stereo type that all dark siders are morons and only tactic is brute force, some of them are quite intelligent.

 

Edit: Sorry for the double post

Well, the Elders are not stupid. They were already betrayed by Revan and Malak once, and Revan has to prove himself again in order to regain their trust. The only way Sidious or Vader would be able to access the Temple would be to ally themselves with the One, bring him the Tome so his tribe's shamans could open the Temple. Even so, would they even be able to reach the planet? Not only would the planet be swarming with Dark Jedi, Sith Acolytes, Sith Troopers, and Droids (more so due to the invasion) that would guard the temple and prevent any tunneling, but there would already be a massive fleet preventing anyone from getting near the planet.

 

Also I would point out that Revan's Sith Empire has a lot more Force users than the Galactic Empire. But that's a point for a future thread.

[Darth Hord]

Well, the Elders are not stupid. They were already betrayed by Revan and Malak once, and Revan has to prove himself again in order to regain their trust.

After thinking about this I have to somewhat agree, Vader looks menacing in the suit, and Palpatine well we all know what he looks, neither of them look "good." Though I wonder what the Elders reaction would when they hear that they want to destroy the star forge.

 

The only way Sidious or Vader would be able to access the Temple would be to ally themselves with the One, bring him the Tome so his tribe's shamans could open the Temple.

Or they could do my theory of digging underneath it. Or if they have enough artillery, I would love to see how much energy the temple's force field could take from various vehicles like the ATST.

 

Even so, would they even be able to reach the planet?

There are various ways to get down to the surface.

 

Not only would the planet be swarming with Dark Jedi, Sith Acolytes, Sith Troopers, and Droids (more so due to the invasion) that would guard the temple and prevent any tunneling, but there would already be a massive fleet preventing anyone from getting near the planet.

Should the sith fleet try to prevent them from reaching the planet (and thus not getting near the disruptor field) a massive space battle would occur and the facts are the Galactic Empire has a big tech. advantage, more variety of ships and man power (overall) to its advantage.

 

Also I would point out that Revan's Sith Empire has a lot more Force users than the Galactic Empire. But that's a point for a future thread.

 

Which is both a good and bad thing.

 

I have a few scenario ideas that I would like to run by you if we do a full scale war thread.

[Carsew]

Or they could do my theory of digging underneath it. Or if they have enough artillery, I would love to see how much energy the temple's force field could take from various vehicles like the ATST.

 

Even if they try to dig underneath it, the temple shields would probably stop them. Otherwise they would just come up to the Temples defenses, and no matter how strong both Vader and Sidious are, they will get killed by the hundreds of droids and Dark Jedi. And wasn't the Force Field made by the Force? If so, then it could probably stand against most of the things Vader threw at them.

 

There are various ways to get down to the surface.

 

I have to agree with that, but someone said that the DS was as big as a planet, and therefore wouldn't be caught by the disruptor field, which is not true, the DS is, to quote Ben, the size of a small moon. Which enables it to be caught by the field and be sucked down.

 

Should the sith fleet try to prevent them from reaching the planet (and thus not getting near the disruptor field) a massive space battle would occur and the facts are the Galactic Empire has a big tech. advantage, more variety of ships and man power (overall) to its advantage.

 

Yeah, but the Sith ships have some sort of protection against it, according to Carth, and since they don't get caught in it, we have to assume thats true. So the Empire ships would indeed crash, and suddenly, the DS is alone.

[RedHawke]

I'm on the Death Star's part but still, those thousands of Leviathans could destroy it's focusing crystals before it could fire.

You'd have to get through the planetary level shields, and as I pointed out only a Super-Laser or Torpedo Sphere are capable of that so its quite impossible for simple Sith Leviathans to get to the weapon to damage it...

 

@ Darth Hord interesting tidbit from the novel but that conflicts with some sources I have seen and are accepted about the Death Star's shield system as being listed as a heavy planetary level system. But you are correct the nauseating array of weapons are ample to keep away simple capital ships.

[Darth_Yuthura]

You'd have to get through the planetary level shields, and as I pointed out only a Super-Laser or Torpedo Sphere are capable of that so its quite impossible for simple Sith Leviathans to get to the weapon to damage it...

 

So are you saying that all we saw in Episode IV couldn't have happened? I seemed to remember some big space battle near the station's surface at the end.

[Insignia_Enithma]

So are you saying that all we saw in Episode IV couldn't have happened? I seemed to remember some big space battle near the station's surface at the end.

 

RH may be thinking of the DS II where they had to go to endor disable the shield ect...

[RedHawke]

So are you saying that all we saw in Episode IV couldn't have happened? I seemed to remember some big space battle near the station's surface at the end.

How long since you watched the Ep IV movie?

 

There is no 'battle' with capital ships, they (Rebels) do send fighters which the DS never even activated the main shield as fighters were not considered a threat, but the Rebels also have plans for a 'weakness' in the battle station and attempt to exploit it in the raid. Now that was what I saw, what was it you saw?

 

And it still doesn't alter what I said before.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Yes, it does. X-wings are NOT Torpedo Spheres. Y-wings are NOT Superlasers. Therefore, it is not impossible for anything but those two weapons to penetrate the DS's defenses.

[RedHawke]

Yes, it does. X-wings are NOT Torpedo Spheres. Y-wings are NOT Superlasers. Therefore, it is not impossible for anything but those two weapons to penetrate the DS's defenses.

Has nothing to do with my points or the points I was responding to, nice try... moving on.

[Sabretooth]

*checks thread-srsness-o-meter*

 

IT'S OVER 9000 !!!

[Insignia_Enithma]

*checks thread-srsness-o-meter*

 

IT'S OVER 9000 !!!

 

It broke my scouter!

[Trench]

The Dark Side of the Force overcomes the need for schematics!

If (yes another if!) Revan or one of his Dark Jedi were to get in their starfighters personally, they would probably be able to find the weakness through the force, then direct the bulk of their starfighter forces to it.

[Darth Hord]

Even if they try to dig underneath it, the temple shields would probably stop them.

There's nothing to suggest that they go under ground. I'm convinced that forcefield is only ground level(the force field doesn't stop dark jedi from entering the temple itself from the top and im talking about force field not disruptor field), hell it maybe only on the door, it's not like anyone who crashed landed before has any heavy weapons, nor would the said weapons be from the future.

 

and no matter how strong both Vader and Sidious are, they will get killed by the hundreds of droids and Dark Jedi.

No numbers were ever given, for the temple. Vader and Sidious wouldn't come alone. And in the resurrection comic(which features a good battle between Darth Maul and Darth Vader and it is cannon), Sidious's lightning turns 3 or 4 prophets of the darkside to ash. He has such great control of his lightning that when Moff Kadir and his cadre of loyal storm troopers went to kill Palpatine he used his lightning to kill them all but he directed i to avoid his own red guard who were trying to protect him. So the numbers of "average joe dark jedi and no name sith, wouldn't be enough to stop Vader and Sidious, and their reinforcements which would be considerable due to their importance.

 

And wasn't the Force Field made by the Force?

It's was never confirmed to be, the name itself, "force field" by itself doesn't mean anything though the ritual could suggest it being created of the force. Though I'm not sure how well this would work, against Vader(or god help it Sidious himself) due to his power. I mean we have no idea how powerful Revan was when he first visited the temple, plus there is nothing to suggest that it could stop Vader from tking the entire temple, remember Revan needed to get inside, Vader needs to destroy it.

 

I have to agree with that, but someone said that the DS was as big as a planet, and therefore wouldn't be caught by the disruptor field, which is not true, the DS is, to quote Ben, the size of a small moon. Which enables it to be caught by the field and be sucked down.

It's too big to get sucked down, it has it's own gravitational pull, if the disruptor field would do anything, it would probably overload it's systems and cause it to get stuck in Lehon's orbit but I don't see how how. And this is assuming that they don't destroy the planet first. Not to mention that if it did fall the planet is done for. So the star forge wouldn't have it's first (and most effective) line of defense.

 

Yeah, but the Sith ships have some sort of protection against it, according to Carth, and since they don't get caught in it, we have to assume thats true. So the Empire ships would indeed crash, and suddenly, the DS is alone.

My whole point here was that the sith fleet weren't going to let them get near the planet(which was the point I was addressing) which is where the disruptor field comes from, they would be fighting beyond the planet and out of range... They might lose a few ships but once they realize it, there is nothing to stop them from glassing the planet from a safe range outside it's orbit.

 

@ Darth Hord interesting tidbit from the novel but that conflicts with some sources I have seen and are accepted about the Death Star's shield system as being listed as a heavy planetary level system. But you are correct the nauseating array of weapons are ample to keep away simple capital ships.

I'm curious for the sources. I guess it could be that the death star wasn't quite completed in the novel and the shield may have been the very last edition.

 

The Dark Side of the Force overcomes the need for schematics!

If (yes another if!) Revan or one of his Dark Jedi were to get in their starfighters personally, they would probably be able to find the weakness through the force, then direct the bulk of their starfighter forces to it.

 

No offense but this is the stuff that gets frustrating to deal with it. Your entire argument is "Revan is uber" and therefore he will magically become an ace fighter pilot find a small exhaust port on 160 km (if this is the first death star which hasn't been confirmed to be) all the while avoiding thousands of tie fighters, turbo lasers,ion canons,etc. And the same goes for the dark jedi, none of them were noted to be ace pilots and they would be to preoccupied to look for a weakness with their eyes let alone trying to concentrate to use the force. This "what if" is not going to happen.

[Trench]

I'm not saying that "Revan is uber". I'm saying that a skilled Force sensitive could probably find the weakness. Imagine what Luke could have done if he had been as powerful in that battle as he had been in some later works. Take what happened between Jaina and Caedus, Luke was -over a long distance- able to cloud the mind of a Sith Lord enough that he thought he was fighting Luke instead of his sister. This power has nothing to do with the battle mentioned, but it was used to give you an example of Lukes power. Imagine what Revan could do at his level. For all we know he could have been a master of shatterpoints like Mace Windu.

[Darth Hord]

I'm not saying that "Revan is uber". I'm saying that a skilled Force sensitive could probably find the weakness.

I apologize if this post and the last sound a bit snippy.

 

How do you expect them to concentrate? They have way have to deal with all of this from the death star alone(exclude the ground vehicles and such)

Scattered across the Death Star's surface were thousands of weapons emplacements: a total of 10,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 laser cannons, 2,500 ion cannons and 768 tractor beam projectors. The station carried a crew of 265,675, plus 52,276 gunners, 607,360 troops, 25,984 stormtroopers, 42,782 ship support staff, and 167,216 pilots and support crew. The station also carried 7,200 starfighters, four strike cruisers, 3,600 assault shuttles, 1,400 AT-ATs, 1,400 AT-STs, 1,860 drop ships, and more. (source is the sw databank

 

This isn't including what stars destroyers would add to the battle

 

Imagine what Luke could have done if he had been as powerful in that battle as he had been in some later works. Take what happened between Jaina and Caedus, Luke was -over a long distance- able to cloud the mind of a Sith Lord enough that he thought he was fighting Luke instead of his sister.

Luke was solely focusing on the duel, and the duel alone. He wouldn't have other distractions, even the slightest slip up when your concentration is on the battle could lead to your death but you expect Revan to divert his at the very least some of attention from the incoming star fighters and antifighter turrets to find a weakness on moon size battle station.

 

Imagine what Revan could do at his level

Luke by LOTF is alot more powerful then Revan, not to mention if Revan even attempts this, his navy would be under the command of lesser beings (and god help them if Grand Admiral Thrawn was in command of the imperials.) But even by LOTF Luke isn't that powerful to do what you suggest in the middle of space battle.

 

For all we know he could have been a master of shatterpoints like Mace Windu.

We could only speculate at best, until he has shown the ability or has been stated by a credible source to have it, then as far as I'm concerned he doesn't.

[Mandalore The Shadow]

Star Forge beacuse it is a factory

[RedHawke]

I'm curious for the sources. I guess it could be that the death star wasn't quite completed in the novel and the shield may have been the very last edition.

The Star Wars A New Hope novel mentioned it being unassailable in a conventional means, during the part of the analysis of the plans Leia had on Yavin, and it was re-iterated in most of the other printed materials available on the Death Star (though some may have been fan made)... my primary sources are the statements made in the novel/movie and the RPG materials which give quite technical answers to what is what, but to be 100% honest the RPG sources are, as I know full well, not infallible themselves (They dropped the ball on the Executor in its stated length), but so far the RPG data on the Death Star are pretty spot on.

 

Either way the canon movie itself mentions that the Death Star is extremely well defended from a conventional attack, now whilst snub-fighters were not considered a threat due to the massive amounts of carried fighters the station boasted. (Not the Death Star's fault or design flaw that Tarkin was an arrogant @ss and never scrambled his fighters. )

 

The scale of the Death Star itself would lend to it having/needing to have a Planetary scale shield generator... technically the biggest power consumption would be for the DS to enter hyperspace, a heavy planetary shield system and even the Super-Laser combined would pale in comparison to that one system/feat.

[Q]

Damnit!

 

I'm offline for a few days and I miss another epic pissing contest of gargantuan geekosity.

 

 

 

Oh, and Death Star by a parsec.

[Carsew]

Scattered across the Death Star's surface were thousands of weapons emplacements: a total of 10,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 laser cannons, 2,500 ion cannons and 768 tractor beam projectors. The station carried a crew of 265,675, plus 52,276 gunners, 607,360 troops, 25,984 stormtroopers, 42,782 ship support staff, and 167,216 pilots and support crew. The station also carried 7,200 starfighters, four strike cruisers, 3,600 assault shuttles, 1,400 AT-ATs, 1,400 AT-STs, 1,860 drop ships, and more.

 

The turrets and cannons on the surface are spread out also, and since the DS is so large, they would not have to worry about 10,000 turbolasers, more like 500 at the most, as long as they stay in the same place. And the troops and AT-STs, AT-ATs, and dropships would not do anything to help, since they are stashed inside.

[Darth Hord]

The turrets and cannons on the surface are spread out also, and since the DS is so large, they would not have to worry about 10,000 turbolasers, more like 500 at the most, as long as they stay in the same place. And the troops and AT-STs, AT-ATs, and dropships would not do anything to help, since they are stashed inside.

 

Um, I know that already? It's says that they were "Scattered across the Death Star's surface"

 

I was posting it's statistics originally for everyone to see and my point still stands. And the second time I posted (which was solely about space combat) this I told him to "exclude the ground vehicles and such"

[Fredi]

Star Forge, I will make a super armada and take down the Death Star with it.

[Mandalore The Shadow]

Imagne both their powers combined that would be crazy

[Mindtwistah]

The Death Star would win in a face-to-face (Or rather, space station-to-space station) battle, but the Star Forge would win in a war to conquest the galaxy.

 

Death Star can blow things up, yes. It could probably blow the Star Forge up in a battle. But the Star Forge creates unlimited amount of ships, the Empire would be outnumbered within a few months/a year.

[Mandalore The Shadow]

The Death Star would win in a face-to-face (Or rather, space station-to-space station) battle, but the Star Forge would win in a war to conquest the galaxy.

 

Death Star can blow things up, yes. It could probably blow the Star Forge up in a battle. But the Star Forge creates unlimited amount of ships, the Empire would be outnumbered within a few months/a year.

 

Nicely stated which is why i would choose the star forge