Revan vs. Anikan if he didn't have to be in that Darth Vader costume

[Lord of Hunger]

Not to resurrect a dead topic or anything, but from what I've seen, plenty of people usually classify Revan fanboys as those who think that Revan is either the most powerful Jedi ever, or one of the most powerful Jedi ever.

Guess what: I don't believe that Revan is the most powerful Jedi ever because Revan IS NOT A JEDI! The PC of KOTOR and the Dark Lord of the Sith are two people sharing the same body. Revan is among the most powerful of the False Sith, though by no means the most powerful. The title most likely belongs to either Darth Nihilus or Darth Traya. And note that I said False Sith.

 

Now in all practicality, how much chance do you think an Jedi Guardian with little self-control and a lack of any Force mastery that goes beyond the Jedi Order's simple techniques will do against a level-headed, high-focused Dark Lord who has studied advanced Force techniques at Malachor and Korriban? Forget the names of the characters or their role in canon for just one moment! Look at who they are!

 

YES, I admit that I like Revan. But I know when to recognize when someone is above Revan's level, unlike actual fanboys. I have even listed some individuals who could have defeated Revan in my earlier posts.

 

But the Anakin fanboys and the G-Canon fanboys in this debate probably won't even bother listening to simple logic, responding with either "An1k1n 1z uber st40ng 1n teh F0rc8!" or "G-CANON TRIUMPHS OVER YOU PETTY IGNORANT SAVAGES!!!!!!!"

[Darth Scorcher]

*sigh* guess we're going to have to bring this up again.

 

okay, first:

G-CANON TRIUMPHS OVER YOU PETTY IGNORANT SAVAGES!!!!!!

Well it true!!!

 

Okay, canon aside(you guys made me regret bringing it up.)

 

I'm going to try to be reasonable.

Two different kinds of battles I made up for any future vs. threads.

 

Lightsaber Battle:

Honestly, who's surprised I vote Revan? Anakin has much potential but, nowhere near the power of Revan, they are both good in their own way. But really, it's pretty obvious Revan dominates Anakin so....

Winner: Revan

 

Battle of Force: Do I really need to go into detail about this?

Winner: Revan. Hands down.

 

So, yeah, I vote Revan, I hope to be able to go into more detail with these comparisons, but for now, I don't need to go into much.

[Ping]

@LoH: Geez, I state a comment about what I've observed and I get an angry response. Sheesh...

 

But really, it's pretty obvious Revan dominates Anakin so....

 

I haven't seen anything that shows Revan is more powerful than Anakin, or that Anakin is more powerful than Revan, but I think Revan might probably beat Anakin in a Force battle. Lightsaber battle would be very close, though.

[Darth Scorcher]

hmm, good point, but still, I do believe Revan would beat Anakin in a lightsaber battle, but I don't mean it like:

 

Anakin: You underestimate my power!!

Revan: No I don't!! POW!!! Anakin explodes.

 

Oh, and if somebody could fix my mistake with Anakin's name I would appreciate it.

[Czerka-agent]

Now that i think about it, I think Anakin would win. If he had no armor, and was older (say mid 30's) he would proably kill revan.

 

If anikan wasn't so damn cocky all the time in is his youth, he probably would stand a fair chance.

[RedHawke]

Revan is among the most powerful of the False Sith, though by no means the most powerful.

For the record I looked up "False Sith" on Google and there seems to be a fanon reference for a False Sith Crusade far after the OT occured (mentions Imperial Remnants) and or maybe something Bane may have said about other Sith Lords (which doesn't make it fact), once I saw a link to this very thread and your post on the first page of the search I concluded the term you used here "False Sith" was likely of your own making for Revan's status. As such your arguments validity goes right into the dumpster.

 

So don't call others on leaving logic behind when you are just as guilty of it yourself in the very same post.

 

If you have some sort of link to where you got this "False Sith" information I would be happy to check it out.

[Darth Avlectus]

For the record I looked up "False Sith" on Google and there seems to be a fanon reference for a False Sith Crusade far after the OT occured (mentions Imperial Remnants) and or maybe something Bane may have said about other Sith Lords (which doesn't make it fact), once I saw a link to this very thread and your post on the first page of the search I concluded the term you used here "False Sith" was likely of your own making for Revan's status. As such your arguments validity goes right into the dumpster.

 

So don't call others on leaving logic behind when you are just as guilty of it yourself in the very same post.

 

If you have some sort of link to where you got this "False Sith" information I would be happy to check it out.

 

IIRC Path of destruction: Bane came to a realization that the brotherhood of darkness was nothing but cowards, weaklings, and sycophants. I don't clearly remember the passage w/ the words false sith came up. Could be in there, wouldn't surprise me. I just looked a glance through and didn't find it. I could re-read the novel entirely I suppose. But FTR, whatever he said, it was in reference to the others of the sith at that time, the way bane thought of them in disgust.

[adamqd]

For the record

 

I think LOH was merely using the phrase as to not Include the True Sith, ie; The Old Sith Empire, and his use of this Phrase whether real or not does not add or detract from the point he was making. If I was to say Revan was the most powerful of the "Except for Darth Andeddu, non Darth prefix" Sith, it would mean the same thing, yet because it was a crass explanation, you would not come to the conclusion that I was Creating Canon to aid my argument.

[Giant Graffiti]

Revan IS NOT A JEDI!

Wasn't Revan trained as a Jedi? Doesn't that technically make him a Jedi?

[DarthJacen]

Yes, and knighted the first time, but he only achieved the rank on Padawan the second time.

[Forogorn]

I don't believe that Revan is the most powerful Jedi or Sith. I believe that he is the weakest, most pathetic Jedi or Sith ever.

 

Reasons why Revan is weak:

1. He didn't sense Malak's betrayal.

2. He made Malak died, if he didn't go turn to the Dark Side this would have never happened.

3. He was easily captured by Bastila and the Jedi.

4. He lost his memory.

5. He caused many death and pain from turning to the Dark Side.

6. He gave no mercy to Mandalore the Ultimate.

7. He can easily be defeated by the duelist on Taris unless he regains his strength.

8. He couldn't easily persuade Juhani to turn back to the Light Side, if he was a master of persuasion, he could have done that quickly, but he couldn't.

 

I mentioned some of those before. Revan may be totally awesome, but think of some reasons to bring him down and crush him. I really like saying how the strongest can be the weakest at the same time.

[Mono_Giganto]

I don't believe that Revan is the most powerful Jedi or Sith. I believe that he is the weakest, most pathetic Jedi or Sith ever.

 

If he/she's the weakest, what does that make all the Jedi and Sith Revan outfought?

 

Reasons why Revan is weak:

1. He didn't sense Malak's betrayal.

How is that different than any other Sith? If the master always anticipated the betrayal, there would never be any change in leadership.

 

Hell, Palpatine, whom many of the G-canon defenders in this thread have pointed out is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, didn't account for Vader's betrayal. He expected absolute loyalty from a man who (a) previously betrayed the entire Jedi Order, and (b) is fully aware that Palpatine plans to replace him at the earliest opportunity. Obviously, this is no indication of weakness.

 

2. He made Malak died, if he didn't go turn to the Dark Side this would have never happened.

 

Well, one could say the same about Anakin. Had he never turned to the dark side, tons of Jedi would still be alive, Palpatine would likely have been defeated in Episode III, and Obi-Wan wouldn't have been killed in Episode IV.

 

 

3. He was easily captured by Bastila and the Jedi.

 

There's no indication that the Jedi would have been even remotely successful had Malak not fired on Revan's bridge.

 

 

4. He lost his memory.

 

...And gained much of it back. With the kind of physical trauma he survived, such a small side-effect in relation doesn't really make him out to be weak. Anyway, for that matter, if Revan is weak for losing some of his memory, Anakin is weak for losing all of his limbs.

 

 

5. He caused many death and pain from turning to the Dark Side.

 

So did Anakin. So did Palpatine. And, as we've established, neither of these individuals are particularly weak, since calling either weak would make your entire argument invalid.

 

6. He gave no mercy to Mandalore the Ultimate.

 

Anakin gave no mercy to Dooku, either. Not really much difference in either situation.

 

 

7. He can easily be defeated by the duelist on Taris unless he regains his strength.

 

Not necessarily true; I, for example, had no trouble beating all of the duelists.

 

8. He couldn't easily persuade Juhani to turn back to the Light Side, if he was a master of persuasion, he could have done that quickly, but he couldn't.

 

Again, not necessarily true; given that Revan is generally regarded as a persuasive individual regardless of playing preferences, I'd go as far to say that this is outright wrong.

 

I have no problems with the idea that Revan isn't the strongest of the Jedi (I seriously doubt he is), but it seems silly to claim that he's the weakest, and then only provide reasoning which, in the context of this thread, all applies equally to his opponent.

[Lord of Hunger]

@LoH: Geez, I state a comment about what I've observed and I get an angry response. Sheesh...

Angry response? That was hardly in the realm of angry. More like slightly irritated that you have to bring the whole issue of "Revan fanboys" into this. It bugs me that people have to lump Revan fanboys and individuals like myself who hold that Revan is not a mere Fallen Jedi into the same pile.

Now that i think about it, I think Anakin would win. If he had no armor, and was older (say mid 30's) he would proably kill revan.

 

If anikan wasn't so damn cocky all the time in is his youth, he probably would stand a fair chance.

These statements have some reason. Let us look at the two characters:

 

Revan

-Moderately High Force Potential (as described by many KOTOR and TSL sources)

-Extremely High Focus (trained under many Jedi Masters including Kreia, and studied at Malachor and Korriban)

-Strong Mental Discipline (very tactical, rational mind that eventually resurfaced following the events of K1)

 

Anakin

-Extremely High Force Potential (because he is Teh Chosen 1)

-Little Focus (solves situations by using lots of brute force, very much a berserker)

-Low Mental Discipline (behaves very irrationally, easily influenced and controlled)

 

Now, if he were this:

 

NEW! IMPROVED! Anakin

-Extremely High Force Potential

-Strong Focus

-Strong Mental Discipline

 

He immediately stands a better chance at fight Revan. However, to be come NEW! IMPROVED! Anakin, he has to stop being the Anakin he is before he becomes Vader since his weaknesses come from his personality and lack of experience. Also, he will essentially be this:

 

Luke

-Extremely High Force Potential

-Strong Focus

-Strong Mental Discipline

 

For the record I looked up "False Sith" on Google and there seems to be a fanon reference for a False Sith Crusade far after the OT occured (mentions Imperial Remnants) and or maybe something Bane may have said about other Sith Lords (which doesn't make it fact), once I saw a link to this very thread and your post on the first page of the search I concluded the term you used here "False Sith" was likely of your own making for Revan's status. As such your arguments validity goes right into the dumpster.

 

So don't call others on leaving logic behind when you are just as guilty of it yourself in the very same post.

 

If you have some sort of link to where you got this "False Sith" information I would be happy to check it out.

As adamqb points out, I am referring to Sith who are not part of the racial group that the Ancient Sith belongs to. A False Sith not only lacks the blood heritage of an Ancient Sith, but since the False Sith began as Dark Jedi using Sith artifacts (Exar Kun, Krath, etc.), then they are less likely to have inherited a true understanding of the Sith philosophy that the Ancients probably had. However, that the understanding part is I admit mostly speculation.

Wasn't Revan trained as a Jedi? Doesn't that technically make him a Jedi?

Except he stopped being a Jedi and became a Sith.

I don't believe that Revan is the most powerful Jedi or Sith. I believe that he is the weakest, most pathetic Jedi or Sith ever.

 

Reasons why Revan is weak:

1. He didn't sense Malak's betrayal.

2. He made Malak died, if he didn't go turn to the Dark Side this would have never happened.

3. He was easily captured by Bastila and the Jedi.

4. He lost his memory.

5. He caused many death and pain from turning to the Dark Side.

6. He gave no mercy to Mandalore the Ultimate.

7. He can easily be defeated by the duelist on Taris unless he regains his strength.

8. He couldn't easily persuade Juhani to turn back to the Light Side, if he was a master of persuasion, he could have done that quickly, but he couldn't.

 

I mentioned some of those before. Revan may be totally awesome, but think of some reasons to bring him down and crush him. I really like saying how the strongest can be the weakest at the same time.

In addition to what Mono pointed out, I like to remind you of your previous statements.

If Revan was smart, he would have told the Republic that he will pretend to join the Dark Side, since he didn't, it caused a lot of deaths, including his own apprentice, Darth Malak. So it's Revan's fault for his stupidity. He also disobeyed the Jedi Council and went to war, which led to Mandalore the Ultimate's death. He shouldn't have used his power for offense, he should have used it for defense. Anakin on the other hand was a hero at the end. Anakin was the true Chosen One, he actually did save the Republic and finished the prophecy, but it was until the end, so he did it very late. He was suppose to be the savior of the Republic, and he was because he killed Darth Sidious. Without Anakin there'd be no Luke. Both of them have their negatives, so they're both equal. Still....Anakin was original.

Then you wrote:

LordofHunger, what I'm trying to say, is that they both are weak and powerful at the same time, they have weaknesses and strength.

So first you say that Revan sucks and Anakin is uber 1337, then you say that Revan and Anakin both have strong and weak points, now you are just saying that Revan sucks again. What are you trying to say exactly?

[RedHawke]

I think LOH was merely using the phrase as to not Include the True Sith, ie; The Old Sith Empire, and his use of this Phrase whether real or not does not add or detract from the point he was making.

I disagree... it detracts from his argument in that by "pulling some phrase out of his backside" as part of his argument he is not clinging to logic himself, which is "leaving logic behind" in his own post when he is calling others on doing the very same thing in the same post.

 

If I call someones 'logic' into question I try to do it without any embellishment on my part, perhaps that is just me?

 

As adamqb points out, I am referring to Sith who are not part of the racial group that the Ancient Sith belongs to. A False Sith not only lacks the blood heritage of an Ancient Sith, but since the False Sith began as Dark Jedi using Sith artifacts (Exar Kun, Krath, etc.), then they are less likely to have inherited a true understanding of the Sith philosophy that the Ancients probably had. However, that the understanding part is I admit mostly speculation.

So you are talking basically apocrypha here, as it is a term you coined here... kk, got it.

[Darth Ken0bi]

I believe that he is the weakest, most pathetic Jedi or Sith ever.

 

Reasons why Revan is weak:

1. He didn't sense Malak's betrayal.

2. He made Malak died, if he didn't go turn to the Dark Side this would have never happened.

3. He was easily captured by Bastila and the Jedi.

4. He lost his memory.

5. He caused many death and pain from turning to the Dark Side.

6. He gave no mercy to Mandalore the Ultimate.

7. He can easily be defeated by the duelist on Taris unless he regains his strength.

8. He couldn't easily persuade Juhani to turn back to the Light Side, if he was a master of persuasion, he could have done that quickly, but he couldn't.

 

1. He was too busy concentrating on the Jedi.

2. Don't understand.

3. Only got captured because of Malak's actions, we could never truly know if he would of won or not.

4. Because the Jedi erased it all.

5. As most Sith do....

6. Mercy IS for the weak (or so the Sith say.)

7. Players fault.

8. Again, players fault. (go get persuade points.)

 

Your reasons are pretty stupid.

[adamqd]

I disagree... it detracts from his argument in that by "pulling some phrase out of his backside" as part of his argument he is not clinging to logic himself, which is "leaving logic behind" in his own post when he is calling others on doing the very same thing in the same post.

 

If I call someones 'logic' into question I try to do it without any embellishment on my part, perhaps that is just me?

 

 

So you are talking basically apocrypha here, as it is a term you coined here... kk, got it.

 

<snipped>

[RedHawke]

You were the one attempting to debate me on this as well, I replied to you, and now I have gotten a 'twist my post around to attempt to flame bait me in return' answer, how nice.

[jonathan7]

I think everyone could do with chilling out a little bit in this thread, its become rather tense and snarky. Please don't force me to lock this thread by an inability to be civil to each other -- j7

[Parmenides]

Cannon in Star Wars seemingly can have contradictions. Gearge Lucas has have veto power though. Unless he says outright, "Anikan would beat Revan" then debate is fair game. Though, if he said Jar Jar Binks became a greater Jedi than Mace, then I will have to rethink the "veto power" thing.

 

 

As for Reven vs. Anikan, people love Revan, but all the same it's not just fanboyism. Many have issues with Anikan. Anikan looks like boyband singer. He's too distracted with other things, lacking discipline to better himself. He's like a prodigy with wasted talent. He'd be better served joining a boyband or else loosing his prettyboy limbs and face so that he can be remade into someone greater. (despite the loss of midichlorians)

 

I think the whole "balance to the force" thing was a failure (not in Lucas' story) but in himself. He dropped the ball, so his seed (Luke) had to fulfill the prophecy that was intended for him. At least, in an indirect way, Anikan still fulfilled the prophecy by producing a child. (oh yeah, and the "Twin Sister!")

 

Does anyone reach their maximum potential? No human ever does. You can argue that Anikan had a higher level of potential than Revan, but Anikan didn't and wouldn't realize even a small fraction his potential. Chief reasons were his teenager discipline and emotional issues. Anikan was a failed prodigy, but that's ok since most prodigy's have a hard time getting past their inevitable issues. In real life, most of the time it's the ones with discipline and willpower and not the prodigy's that make the most money or gain political power. Unless you have an alternate universe (where Anikan didn't get chopped up by Obi, and where he actually had discipline, and he had more time to grow up, and he would actually have focus) then Anikan would be a playtoy for Revan.

[adamqd]

^^^ Well put

[DarthJacen]

I happen to think that Anakin and Revan would end up stalemating. I, just, can't see how either combatant would get an advantage over each other. Both are prideful and overconfident in their abilities. Both are decent Generals, with Anakin being a master at mechanics and robotics as well. Honestly though, with the canonical Revan being light side male, I think, it would be Revan who would stop the fight first. We all know that when Anakin goes into one of his frenzies he doesn't stop unless halted.

 

So, Revan, relinquishes to try and reason with Anakin, and Anakin strikes Revan down.

[Parmenides]

Maybe he would reason, depending upon the timeline in his life.

 

The reasonable Obi Won struck Anakin down. You don't have to lower your guard to offer your hand.

 

What if they were engaged in mortal combat? Stalemate still?

[Mono_Giganto]

I'd think if Revan tried to reason, he'd at least be intelligent enough to have HK-47 standing by.

[Forogorn]

What I'm really trying to point out is all Jedi are weak and powerful at the same time. All have their weaknesses, and all have their strength. It's just the weaknesses that people forget.

[DarthJacen]

Maybe he would reason, depending upon the timeline in his life.

 

The reasonable Obi Won struck Anakin down. You don't have to lower your guard to offer your hand.

 

What if they were engaged in mortal combat? Stalemate still?

 

Yes, both are excellent saberists.

 

What I'm really trying to point out is all Jedi are weak and powerful at the same time. All have their weaknesses, and all have their strength. It's just the weaknesses that people forget.

 

Yes, you hit the nail right on the head there.